With Tezzeret dominating, what would it be safe to unrestrict?

[LotusHead]

So, there's a lot of stuff on the current B/R list that could come off as long as it didn't fit straight into Tezzeret, like Gifts and Fact or Fiction.  Here's a preliminary list:


    * Crop Rotation
fetching Orchard in Oath isn't overpowered; fetching Strip Mine in Stax isn't that dangerous, and come on, is someone seriously going to rebuild Academy?
SUre
    * Enlightened Tutor
Seriously folks?
Not so sure with Tez being so strong (not to mention Bomberman as still viable)
    * Entomb
Dragon is harmless, and Entomb for Strip Mine is barely a threat.
Why not?
    * Flash
Not a threat without 4 Merchant Scrolls, 4 BS, 4 Ponder.  Even if it were marginally playable, it would be at most a minor threat to Tez.
Not llike it made a dent in it's hey day...
    * Grim Monolith
Seriously?
 no complaints there...
Now, here's the real question.  Would unrestricting Strip Mine hold Tezzeret in check?

Strip mine, no. just no.

[fury]

Before asking for any restriction/derestriction because of one archetype, would it be wise to let the metagame adapt to Tezz control ? I'm not sure Tezz is  overperforming everywhere, and it don't seem to unbalance the vintage format. There are some builds which have a very favorable match-up against it (Ichorid, Goblins) and which are underplayed now for some reasons.

[Bongo]

If it's the second most played card behind Force of Will, why don't we discuss restricting Force of Will?  

The fallacy in this assumption is the fact that Vintage would degenerate into a real coin-flipping format without Force. That is not the case with Mana Drain.



I think the best way to find out if a card is broken when unrestricted is to test hypothetical decks with 4ofs. Naturally, there's a big chance that I haven't seen an interaction that would make an archetype broken. Also, I didn't test Grim Monolith, because I think it's fairly obvious that it's not good.

Crop Rotation was best in Mana Ichorid to get Bazaar, but that didn't change anything to make Ichorid broken. In a way it was even worse than Serum Powder, since Crop could be countered. Ichorid was still susceptible to the same hate as before. I tried a green-based Workshop with 4 Crops and some utility lands, but couldn't build a good version, let alone a broken one. Space is really tight, and when I cut some lockpieces for a land toolbox, the deck got a lot worse against TPS. Maybe someone else could build a broken version, but I don't really see it.

Channel in Belcher was good, but I don't see how it can be broken. Still, Belcher has the same weaknesses as before, and would get played the same amount. Really, what would you pump all that mana into? Lich's Mirror was briefly goldfished, but it was just another subpar two-card combo. Metalworker is probably the most similar card to Channel, and I don't think that's broken.

Enlightened Tutor I tried in a TimeVault combo deck, but it was meh. It really hurts to get your tutored-for combo piece countered, and Null Rod was an even greater beating. I tried it shortly in TPS to get Lotus and Necro, but the mana instability keeps this from broken. Multiple ETutors were also really clunky. The most interesting use was in a U/W artifact fish that integrated a small toolbox. Ironically, that toolbox contained stuff to hose the Vault combo. I'm even beginning to think that Imperial Seal could be unrestricted, because aside from Vamp and Mystical, all the topdeck tutors were merely average.

Burning Wish I'm testing in a Long variant, but can't say anything conclusive. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's meh. I really missed the additional acceleration from LED. I'm beginning to think that LED was the real powercard that led to the banning of the Burning Long deck. The fact that Will needs to be in the sideboard also decreased the chance for a random turn 1 win hand. Needs more testing though.

Regrowth also needs more testing, but it opens up a lot of interesting deck options. However, it's best used in a ManaDrain deck because of IntuAK, Gifts and Fact, which are best with Drains. Without Drains, this is probably too slow for the format. I tried to replace Drains with Rituals and modeled it after the old Ritual Gifts list. It was very inconsistent and weak against counters and gravehate. Needs more testing though.


My testing is fairly limited, there is only so much one can do. It could be entirely possible that I'm wrong on multiple accounts. I encourage people to do the same to see if those cards are really broken or not.

[LordHomerCat]

Burning Wish I'm testing in a Long variant, but can't say anything conclusive. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's meh. I really missed the additional acceleration from LED. I'm beginning to think that LED was the real powercard that led to the banning of the Burning Long deck. The fact that Will needs to be in the sideboard also decreased the chance for a random turn 1 win hand. Needs more testing though.

Beginning to think?  Well, that's a start I guess.  Burning Wish is trash.  Can you imagine the original Long.dec with Grim Tutor instead?  It would have been even more absurd.

Burning Wish is AWFUL in combo.  You want to be able to draw your Will in combo, not to mention the whole 2-color thing is one of the best parts of TPS.  Why would you want to run a third color just so that you could never naturally draw your Will again?  The deck doesn't run more than 2 Grim Tutors for Will, so why would it want to overload on Burning Wish and just be kold to Tormod's Crypt?  Seriously, this card is completely safe and could be playable in something more like The Shining (a more controlling deck with a Wishboard and the ability to cast Will multiple times for those not familiar) or god forbid a LFTL deck.  B Wish and Grim Monolith are both safe and should not be restricted.

Seriously though, Strip Mine?  Could magic be less fun than just getting Strip Mined constantly?  At least you actually get to play Magic if I drain your spell.  Getting all my lands destroyed immediately is not really interactive.

[Neonico]

     Tezzeret is a good deck, it's only dominating b/c of lack of dealing with it properly(not that I would even use the word dominating ). It's not even as dominating as the Flash deck pre-restriction was, where you either played it or needed to dedicate certain parts of your sideboard against it.

-Flash would still be a threat, just a different form of the deck, it would lose speed which wasn't all that it had.
-Unrestricting strip mine is possibly the dumbest idea I've heard a bad idea.

Seen from the other side of the ocean, Tezzeret is dominating your metagame simply because everyone plays it. In Europe, we don't have a metagame filled of Tezzeret, simply because people play decks that also beat it consistantly.

I read somewhere on TMD someone suggesting to restrict Thirst... Seriously ? And what after that ? Even Mana drain, which is the only bannable card in the deck would be stupid to restrict, simply because any restrict on tezzeret would lead to a Wraped metagame : Shop + Spheres versus Rituals with lots of anti artefact hate.

My point of view : Try something that can consistently beat tezzeret before hoping to solve the problem with Restricts/Unrestricts. Those decks exist, and are not that bad against anything actuallyplayed.

[Marske]

Sorry this is way off topic but I just must agree with Neonico, as European player and TO I've not seen Tezzeret really dominating anything overhere.. actually the last tournament I played in had 4 storm lists in the top 8 and just 2 drain decks (Thoughtcast painter and Homebrew stifle nought with Tezz as secondary kill) The obvious solution would be run more aggro / control style decks (which tend to kick drain decks in the nuts) and play more diverse stuff before trying to "solve" a problem that isn't really there.

If everybody plays the same deck (like drain decks are big in NE) obviously the players better in the mirror (people like Rich Shay) are going to dominate and keep dominating.. Next time bring TPS, Grim long, ANT, Stax or Ichorid to that meta and take look at what will happen

If anything is safe to be unrestricted it would be nothing at all... and for the people saying B. Wish isn't insane try playing against a deck featuring 5 Yawgmoth's wills and Ad Nauseam... (fizzle rate of 0.0 imo) or the old Long lists (Led was good but now you got 4 Chrome mox 4 Burning wish) serious people although I didn't agree with the restriction of Ponder, Brainstorm, etc those cards are all on the list for a reason and bringing obviously overpowered cards back to stop other seemingly overpowered stuff going on is just very stupid imo and doesn't solve the problem but just creates new ones..

Vintage is broken.. thats the nature of the game... we'll never have a true "rock, paper, scissors" meta game...

[sWoRdFiSh`]

Something different is happening here on the janky side of the Pacific ocean.
Aggro/hate decks are common (yes, Goblins and Artifish even gets played around here) due to the scarcity of proxy tourneys, yet Tez decks end up in the top 8.
That's not to mention Ichorid and Shops show up in decent numbers and that Oath is everywhere.

I think people should focus more on the "consistency" side when addressing the Tez issue.
Tez is just so darn consistent even in the absence of unrestricted Brainstorm while nearly all the other decks struggle.

And the funny thing about playtesting against Tez is this: I ran a fish-esque build with 4 Chalice, 4 Null Rod, Spheres, Strip effects, Teeg and the whole gang with a quick clock just to try and subdue the monster.
Yet somehow, I can't come to the conclusion, in as much as I would want to, that it was a bad match-up for Tez.
We tested nearly all night and still, Tez has those amazing come from behinds, broken openings and the usual super controlled games.
Then it dawned on me: it was like playing against Ichorid, only my hate is not doing enough damage to put the deck dead on its tracks.

Aside, I feel like a golden idiot for remotely thinking that a meta with 4 Balance is healthy.

[hitman]

Seen from the other side of the ocean, Tezzeret is dominating your metagame simply because everyone plays it. In Europe, we don't have a metagame filled of Tezzeret, simply because people play decks that also beat it consistantly.

I read somewhere on TMD someone suggesting to restrict Thirst... Seriously ? And what after that ? Even Mana drain, which is the only bannable card in the deck would be stupid to restrict, simply because any restrict on tezzeret would lead to a Wraped metagame : Shop + Spheres versus Rituals with lots of anti artefact hate.

My point of view : Try something that can consistently beat tezzeret before hoping to solve the problem with Restricts/Unrestricts. Those decks exist, and are not that bad against anything actuallyplayed.

I agree with this post.  I honestly think Mana Drain decks are as successful as they are because such a large group of Vintage players just like playing with them so much.

[reaperbong]

^^^^^^^^^
he's right.

Also I'd just like to say I've certainly won my share of Tez games without resolving a single Drain. I love Mana Drain, they are fun and everything but no doubt they are overrated. Many times I counter with a Drain I take Mana Burn and I would be better off with a Counterspell. If Drains were restricted, Tez pilots would just play 1x Drain + 3x Counterspell or whatnot. Not much of a difference at all if you ask me.

[chrissss]

The reason Grim monolith got restricted is Power Artifact.

imo time vault is ridiculous, its the reason tez is so sick, infinite turns with 2 cards and 4 colorless mana is downright silly.

[Neonico]

The reason Grim monolith got restricted is Power Artifact.

imo time vault is ridiculous, its the reason tez is so sick, infinite turns with 2 cards and 4 colorless mana is downright silly.

Rly ? I think the exact opposite.
What is tezzeret deck ?
You take Meandeck gifts, change the engine (Thirst instead of Gifts) and you get Drain Tendrils. You take drain tendrils and change the kill and remove the Intuition/AK Engine and you get Tezzeret.
Look at the structure of those decks : exactly the same for everything but the kill and gesiton cards.

Errate Tiem vault again ? Okay, and before it get unerrated, dominant decks in the US were Slaver and Drain Tendrils (and Painter)....

Does errating time vault solve the problems ? No, you still got a metagame filled with drain decks.

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

I don't want to take any positions on cards right now, but I do want to comment on this.  Using the B/R List as a wooden stake to drive through the heart of any archetype is an abhorent idea to me.  Instead, conversation focussed on how to use the B/R List to spawn new additional viable archetypes would be more constructive.  So instead of asking questions like, "How would Tez decks deal with 4 Strips in the environment?" let's ask questions like, "What viable and/or budgetary decks is the current B/R list stifling?  And what can be done to remedy that?"  Let's use the B/R List to create, not destroy.  I, personally, don't want another repeat of June 2008.

Peace,

-Troy

[EnialisLiadon]

I think Burning Wish, Entomb, Flash, Grim Monolith, and Gush could be unrestricted.  Wish isn't optimal in fast combo, and would open up some design space in control decks.  Entomb is probably fine.  Dragon could use a boost, and the only other relevant interaction with Entomb would be Strip Mine with Crucible.  Flash loses a ton of consistency without Brainstorm, Scroll and Ponder.  Same with Gush; it would obv have to be tested, but Gush decks without Brainstorm, Scroll and Ponder aren't nearly as good as incarnations with.

Gush and Flash held down Drains, and I think those decks would be infinitely more fair without the true culprits that made those decks insane.

I also think Fact or Fiction and Gifts Ungiven could come off, but not anytime soon.  If other archetypes can get a boost as to keep drains down, perhaps these engines could see unrestriction.

Unrestrictions > restrictions.  I'd prefer to balance a format by making the weak powerful, rather than the powerful made weak.

[tito del monte]

There's been a lot of sensible things said in this thread. i think the first thing I would say is: be careful what you wish for! I mean this in the sense that I think nixing mana drain simply because Tez is perceived as a problem now would be disastrous for the format. I can't imagine Vintage without it, I can't imagine Magic without a home for mana drain - and I think restricting it would the straw that breaks the camel's back for a lot of people who could walk away from the format, or indeed the game as a whole.

As EnialisLiadon says, unrestictions would generally be more welcome than restrictions, but I think we can all wait a few months to see what happens with the development of the metagame (see the example of Europe that's been raised) and the impact of the next set before we ask the DCI to shake the format up yet again.

One thing I would say is that I think Wizards over the past few years have tried to address certain weaknesses in the game - I'm thinking of Green namely - which has definitely seen a rise in Vintage playable cards being printed, everything from Naturalise to Life from the Loam to Glimpse of Nature (which may not quite have found its niche yet) to Goyf.

What I think Wizards need to work on next is upping the power level of White - it needs engines, it needs draw other than the parfait engine. Cards like Mindcensor and Canonist recently are encouraging, now the colour needs more gas to open up more strategies. Unrestricting Enlightened Tutor would probably be a good start as it appears largely harmless. I'm not sure about Balance though!

Overall, I strongly disagree with calls to restrict Mana Drain, and really think Vintage needs to be a format where metagame diversity is encouraged by making as many cards playable as possible not less.

[meadbert]

Ankh of Mishra: The new Null Rod

Sounds like fun doesn't it?

I think folks missed the point.  Being able to play 4x Enlightened Tutor = turn 2 Fastbond reliably.  Add 4x Crop Rotation for 5 Strip Mines and Turboland quickly becomes the deck to beat.  Basically Soly was right about 4xCrucible of Worlds.dec running rampant.

I would say that unrestricting Crop Rotation is fine.
It is Enlightened Tutor that concerns me.  Being able to assemble the Vault/Key even more reliably and going for turn 2 Fastbond and turn 2 Necro is really powerful.  None of that even uses Black Lotus which is the most powerful card in magic.  Do not assume that just because a card is unplayed as a 1of it will be unplayed as a 4of.  That logic was wrong with Gush and it may be wrong with Enlightened Tutor as well.

[M.Solymossy]

It is Enlightened Tutor that concerns me.  Being able to assemble the Vault/Key even more reliably and going for turn 2 Fastbond and turn 2 Necro is really powerful.  None of that even uses Black Lotus which is the most powerful card in magic.  Do not assume that just because a card is unplayed as a 1of it will be unplayed as a 4of.  That logic was wrong with Gush and it may be wrong with Enlightened Tutor as well.

I would definitely play 4 Enlightened Tutor in Long.dec.    I would find Yawgmoth's Bargain, Necropotence, Memory Jar, Black Lotus, or the vault/key combo on turn 2, ALL the time.  Instead of FOW, i'd run heavy black, and run unmask + Duress.  Free Duress effects + turn 2 broken enchantments/artifacts seems silly....

[nineisnoone]

If it's the second most played card behind Force of Will, why don't we discuss restricting Force of Will?  

The fallacy in this assumption is the fact that Vintage would degenerate into a real coin-flipping format without Force. That is not the case with Mana Drain.

There are plenty of decks that do not play FoW.  FoW is no more "necessary" than any other card.  What would happen if we restricted FoW?  Dark Ritual would probably take it's place as the most commonly played card in the format.  Is that better or is that worse?  I can't say, nor is it my point to evaluate that possibility.  I do think that a format like that would be as playable (though I suppose the playability of the format is in debate) as the current one.  I've played decks without FoW against combo decks before.

My point is that you are going about the necessity argument in a backwards manner.  A card should not restricted because it is unnecessary for the health of the format.  A card should only be restricted because it is necessary for the health of the format.  Again, we have not established that the card is on it's face an unhealthy card.  Nor have we established that it is in combination with another card (in something less than in a complete deck) that is unhealthy.  All we have said is that it is in a lot of successful decks. 

There is no reason to give an exception to fetch-lands or Force of Will in a way that another card does not.  Saying that "fetch-lands plus dual lands" or "Force of Will" makes the format better is completely backwards.  Vintage is, presumptively, all cards are playable.  Vintage is a good format because it allows you to play fetch-lands and Force of Will, because it allows you to play all the healthy cards possible, and of those cards it allows you to play the best of those cards.  That you can play those cards specifically is why we play Vintage.  If you are looking to walk away from those cards because they are too frequently played that's what other formats are for.

[salthecarp]

I would love to see how the metagame would respond to unrestricted Balance. In fact, I can't think of a change to the B&R list that would make me more excited about playing Vintage.

I would also like to see Flash unrestricted. Flash spawned some of the most bizarre, creative and convoluted combos in Vintage. To me, the essence of the combo deck is to win with cards that might otherwise border on unplayable if not for their interaction with each other. Without Brainstorm and Merchant Scroll, Flash does not seem particularly dangerous.

I would also agree that Entomb and Grim Monolith are safe to unrestrict. Frantic Search doesn't seem particularly frightening either but I'm less sure on that one.

Crop rotation or Strip Mine would certainly change the metagame but I think it would be imprudent to unrestrict both at the same time. I'm just not sure which would be better to try unrestricting first. If Strip Mine was unrestricted I'd want to see Gush come off the list too.

I also think Fact or Fiction is interesting because it can be a very fun card to play. The question I would pose regarding Fact or Fiction goes out to the Tezzeret players. Would Tezzeret decks play 4 Fact or Fiction? If so, what would you cut? I think if 4x Fact or Fiction doesn't make the grade in Tezzeret decks, it is probably safe to unrestrict.

-Peter

[zeus-online]

This topic has now started to get a little more interesting if you ask me, instead of focussing on tezzeret people are talking about how certain cards might spawn new decks as real contenders...which makes me smile a bit

Some of the cards that have been mentioned are ridiculos but others seem more reseaonable...

Flash - Even without the backup cards, this is still 1U win the game, which i have little doubt could be good again, i have no idea if it would be "too good" but i'd rather not unrestrict it.

Gush - I thought a bit about this one today, here's what i think would happen: Doomsday gets a boost, maybe even enough to make it a real contender, that would be quite alright with me. GAT would probably resurface, but not nearly as strong as before...cards like sleight of hand and opt would have to be used instead of scroll, BS and ponder...Night's whisper might even steal a few slots....I don't think either of those decks would "dominate" but i think both could be playable. I doubt the other gush decks from last year would resurface without BS, Ponder and scroll.

Burning wish is not very good for combo anylonger...Grim tutor would likely be plain better right now, but a burning wish control deck is plausible and i doubt it would "dominate"...And another decent control deck wouldn't be all that bad unless you're part of the "i hate mana drains" group.

Fact or fiction would most likely work better in pure control then in combo control, but i'm sure that tezzeret would also use it, it's just really strong. But fortunetly it's pretty slow aswell...I'd love to see it unrestricted...If it's too good, it can always go back on the list.

Gifts ungiven was restricted while BS and scroll where in the format, and i doubt "Neo Gifts" would be nearly as good as MDG, but it could very welll be playable....I'm all for having more engines to choose from...A meta-game where Gifts, Fact, Gush, Thirst and IntuAK are all playable sounds fantastic to me.

Enlightened tutor could be okay, and i think it's worth giving it a shot. I doubt it would break anything.

Grim monolith should be unrestricted simply because it sucks and noone will play it, not very creative, but it's an eyesore on the list.

Crop rotation/Entomb - Very narrow cards, but i feel like they could be used for something, they're both very cheap for their effect.

Frantic search is another card to consider, but free card-draw is just really good. Unlike gush frantic search does not set you back on land drops, and it could be used for some combo or control deck. I wouldn't unrestrict it, but it's an option.

But...All of these cards shouldn't be unrestricted at the same time, that would be chaos and anarchy...but on the other hand it would feel like a fresh new vintage.

I hope the DCI pays attention, but that it shows caution.

/Zeus

[policehq]

Gifts Ungiven's unrestriction would be a very bad idea to discourage the abuse of Mana Drain and Voltaic Key plus Time Vault.

I think the title of this thread would be more accurate if it said "With Mana Drain domination..." because the OP has strayed from saying Tezzeret is a problem. The two problems being discussed are the low cost of the Time Vault/Voltaic Key combo and the high numbers of Mana Drain. Of course, these are semantics.

[Purple Hat]

I still think it's silly to talk about mana drain domination.  Mana drain is one of a large suite of very strong blue cards that exist because when they divided up the color pie blue got draw, counters and affinity, black got life for cards, tutoring and mana acceleration, red got burn, mana acceleration (now) and goblins, green got land based mana acceleration, mana fixing and big overcosted creatures and white got efficient small creatures and life gain.

turns out draw, counters and affinity are better than the other things on that list.

We need to give up on the idea that blue isn't going to be a dominant color in vintage.  If people play blue they're going to abuse those mechanics by using the best available spells in that category.  That means the best blue draw and the best blue counter WHATEVER THEY ARE will be heavily played.  you restrict drain, something else becomes the best counter.  then you restrict that and so on.  the problem is blue is too good from a design standpoint, not any one specific card.

[Diakonov]

It is good to sometimes experiment with downsizing the restricted list, but it should never be done with the intention to stop a dominant deck; that logic doesn't really make sense to me.  If you want to take something down, you restrict.

One thing to ask yourself is, "When is the right time to nerf a deck?"  I don't believe that just because a deck is doing well it should be held back.  Only when it has been proven that there is nothing that can be done to stop it.

For example, Flash/Gush had to be restricted because it had gotten to the point where it was silly not to bring that deck to tournament.  There was virtually nothing that could beat it with consistency.

Drain decks in this metagame have weaknesses.  If you really wanted to design a deck that specifically targeted them, you could do it.

[Smmenen]

It is good to sometimes experiment with downsizing the restricted list, but it should never be done with the intention to stop a dominant deck; that logic doesn't really make sense to me.  If you want to take something down, you restrict.

One thing to ask yourself is, "When is the right time to nerf a deck?"  I don't believe that just because a deck is doing well it should be held back.  Only when it has been proven that there is nothing that can be done to stop it.

For example, Flash/Gush had to be restricted because it had gotten to the point where it was silly not to bring that deck to tournament.  There was virtually nothing that could beat it with consistency.

Workshop decks placed as many decks in top 8 as Gush-based decks for almost the entire year that Gush was unrestricted.  In fact, more at times.  The only exception was the first couple of months and then the two  month period where Oath was kicking butt. 

Also, Tezzeret decks (NOT simply Mana Drain decks) have won 50% of every single 32+ player tournament since it has been legal and makes up as much a percentage of Top 8s as the Gush decks did the year Gush was legal.    Mana Drain decks, as an engine, crush Gush decks.   Gush based decks were never more than 25% of top 8s.   Mana Drain decks are already 45% of top 8s.   

Drain decks in this metagame have weaknesses.  If you really wanted to design a deck that specifically targeted them, you could do it.

The same was true of Gifts decks.

And not even Gifts decks, which relied on Scroll and Gifts, are performing as well as Tezzeret decks.    Gifts decks made up about 18% of top 8s while they were legal.   Tezzeret decks are at the same spot as all Gush decks combined ~ 24 percent.   They are very much outperforming Gifts decks, and Gifts was restricted.

If you want to bring some balance back into the metagame, I think that unrestricting Ponder and Gush would be the way to try and partly open the door, once again, to the remnant Gush-bond engine.   Ponder would also make Oath stronger.    Almost no Tezzeret decks use Ponder.   

The danger, of course, is that even a very neutered Gush bond engine would simply replace Thirst as the draw engine of choice for Tez decks.   That's also the problem with suggestions like unrestricting Fact or Gifts, since both would swiftly be incorporated into the Tez deck. 

If tezzeret continues to be dominant, there seem to be three possible options:

1) Restrict Mana Drain

2) Restrict Thirst For Knowledge

3) Unrestrict Gush, Ponder, (and possibly Flash).

Option 1 is highly undesireable for many reasons.

Option 2 is possible, but is less desirable than option 3.

The reason to unrestrict rather than to restrict is that targeted unrestrictions have a better chance of increasing metagame diversity than restrictions.  THis is true for several reasons, one of which is that their effects are more predictable.  But the more obvious reason is that the deck you are targeting remains legal.   If we were to restrict Thirst, that would pretty much rule out entirely ever unrestricting certain cards like Fact or Gifts again.   But if Gush and Ponder suddenly made a much-weakend Gush engine viable, and if Flash was legal, I think that could result in a number of beneficial results.   First of all, Tezzeret would still be legal, but there would be other options.   Oath would be more powerful.   If Flash is more powerful, then Painter decks are better again.   

For those of you who would be scared at the potential return of Flash, take heart in three facts.

First of all, Flash was almost never more than 10% of top 8s, and rarely was the tournament winner.

Second, Flash relied HEAVILY on Brainstorm to fix hands.

Third Flash relied heavily on Merchant Scroll.

With Brainstorm and Merchant Scroll gone, I don't see Flash being very competitive.   

We need to give up on the idea that blue isn't going to be a dominant color in vintage.  If people play blue they're going to abuse those mechanics by using the best available spells in that category.  That means the best blue draw and the best blue counter WHATEVER THEY ARE will be heavily played.  you restrict drain, something else becomes the best counter.  then you restrict that and so on.  the problem is blue is too good from a design standpoint, not any one specific card.

The problem is not that that blue is the dominant color.  It will always be the dominant color in Vintage.   The problem is that Mana Drain decks are an absurd percentage of all top 8s.   They are almost 50% of every single top 8.   From a health of the format/diversity perspective that is simply unacceptable in the long term. 

People complained about Gush-engine decks being dominant, but they were at a little more than half of the numbers that Mana Drain decks are putting up right now.   

People also used to complain about Trinisphere decks, but they never even got close to the numbers that Drains are putting up right now either.   

If Dark Ritual decks ever rise above more than 15% of the field, people immediately begin to complain.   

Mana Drain performance now dwarfs those concerns. 

I don't have a problem with there being a best "engine" in Vintage, but there are limits that most reasonable can agree on.   

[Marske]

@Smmenen,
While I would love being able to play GaT again... if you look at europe you'll see tezzeret isn't really dominating overhere... sure we see loads of "mana drain" decks but not one of those decks is really taking tournaments by force and we have a lot of big events down here how do you guys explain that then ?

Like I said before I don't think anything should be unrestricted and certainly not stuff like B. Wish, Gifts, FoF...

[swawagon]

Of Steve's options I think: Restrict Thirst or do nothing.

There are simply a lot of people (good players) playing Tez too which also leads to Tez doing so well. I honestly think there are ways to address Tez decks that just aren't being done yet. Tez decks are beatable.

And although Flash decks truly loved their 4 Brainstorms, I think it could be pretty scary again if Flash were unrestricted.

[Smmenen]

Of Steve's options I think: Restrict Thirst or do nothing.

There are simply a lot of people (good players) playing Tez too which also leads to Tez doing so well.

Owen T said this on the SCG forums:

Well you can use that logic both ways.

a) tez does better because it is a better deck

b) tez does better because the better players play it.

However even if B is true maybe the better players play it because of A?

I honestly think there are ways to address Tez decks that just aren't being done yet. Tez decks are beatable.

I agree.  I am not alarmist.  I merely report the data, and raise the red flags for things to watch for.

And although Flash decks truly loved their 4 Brainstorms, I think it could be pretty scary again if Flash were unrestricted.

Fear is often irrational though.    Flash was already pretty weak, and without Brainstorm is would be hugely weakened.  Without Merchant Scroll AND Brainstorm?   I doubt it's actually tier 2, even with 4 Ponder and 4 Flash.   

[Suicideking]

I would like to know where people lived where flash was such a dominate force.  Even in its prime it wasnt very good.  Granted it would occasionally get unbeatable hands game 1, it was barely winning tournaments, and I never feared it.

I personally would like to see flash and ponder removed.  Ponder would help TPS get a little stronger, and would boost oath which I think is pretty good in a tez field anyways.

[Smmenen]

As I said, if you look at my analysis of Tez lists:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/17071_So_Many_Insane_Plays_The_Anatomy_of_Vintage_Tezzeret.html

Only a very small percentage of Tez lists run 1 Ponder.   I see no reason to think that they would run more if it were unrestricted, since they don't even run 1 right now, and yet most now run Gifts and Fact.   

I wouldn't unrestrict Ponder though unless the intent was to bring back a much-weakened Grow as well, and thus bring Gush with it.

 

[swawagon]

You are absolutely right, good players do tend to play the best decks. And that is Blue based Time Vault combo, with Thirsts, and Drains at the moment, I agree.

I think what is valid in this discussion is more often than Tezzeret the Seeker with Time Vault, or the ultimate Tezzeret ability, is the decks most common win condition - Tinker / Colossus. Those two cards really might be the larger problem. There really isn't a way to handle Tinker / Colossus with restriction. (Tinker is already restricted) But part of why Tez decks are so good is blue cards and Tinker plus robot.

Jimmy McCarthy a few weeks back was arguing Tinker is better than Yawgmoth's Will in Tez decks and I think he's right. I don't know what to do about Tinker... but it is arguably the most powerful card in the deck.

Repeal should be errated to something like:
Return target nonland permanent with converted mana cost X to its owner's hand.
If targeted nonland permanent has a converted mana cost 10 or over, remove the first digit in X.
Draw a card.

Regarding Flash, I personally had more success with Flash, despite a couple major mistakes and a few goofy SB choices, than any other deck I have ever played. Maybe that's not saying much, but it was pretty amazing.

[Marske]

You are absolutely right, good players do tend to play the best decks. And that is Blue based Time Vault combo, with Thirsts, and Drains at the moment, I agree.

Wait a second guys... because most players play it and finish high with it doesn't make something "the best deck" Mana drain is dominant there is a small difference... anybody remotely into statistics will tell you this.