Fish meet Faeries

[Harlequin]

I really suprised about the response to curfew.  Curfew seems insane in this deck.  Its good against every deck... accept maybe shop aggro.  Even againt Tezz or Combo it gives your Spell stutterers a secrete ability to counter another spell for {U} .  Its also a simple, eligant, and instant answer to Progenitus.  Sure its not a hard lock vrs them, but it puts him into the hand wich is a really safe (for you) place to have him, 2nd only to RFG.  Edict costs more mana, is always 2 turns never more, and is not blue, and does not give you anything against tezz or combo that hasn't tinkered.  Curfew is at least equally bad against heavy Agro, but in those matches re-casting sprite as a counterspell is likely more powerful than bouncing a guy anyhow.  You can also use it for combat tricks.

[Qube]

And the huge possitiv that is also searchable with MS, pitchable to FOW and an instant.

Why not play Mutavault, Spell Shutterer, Vendillion Clique and 2-3 Curfew.

[tomjoad]

Storm: Heh...Yeah, I seem to have forgotten that Prog shuffles back in. Anyway, as Troy said, one more attack is frequently enough.

Harlequin: You are giving Curfew more credit than it deserves. Certainly, it does do all the things you say it will. The problem is, few of those things are any good. For the same mana cost, I could play Chain of Vapor, and then the opponent has to sac something to get rid of one of my guys. It's just not worth it to have to pick a creature back up in most instances. Not even Spellstutter, which ultimately isn't very good at countering things that you want it to, anyway. Getting the 187 out of Clique a second time often will be good, but is it worth 1 ? I'll say probably not.

Qube: This deck isn't currently playing MS (or DT or VT, for that matter), and Edict is also an instant, but the FoW part is the most important thing Curfew can do.

I think trying to fit Mutavaults into the deck would make the colors too unstable. If you want to play man lands I think you need to cut Green. Personally, I would rather have a 5/6 for 1 than a 2/2 that costs 1/2 of a Propaganda just to attack.

[ErkBek]

Curfew would be good if Spellstutter Sprite was good. Problem is, Sprite is too conditional.

I got thinking about a list trying to make a list with 8 Duress + Confidant + Goyf + Null Rod. I realized that it's just not happening b/c that alone is 20 non-blue cards. After you throw in the tutor + bounce suite, you're down to 22 non-blue cards, ~15 blue, and ~23 lands. If you want to run a fish list with 8 Duress, you either can't run Null Rod or you can't run Goyf.

A little brainstorming lead me to conclude I'd rather cut Goyf than Rod, so here's the list I came up with (I think this was the direction this deck was going):

4 Confidant
4 Cutpurse
2 Vendilion Clique

4 FoW
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
4 Null Rod
4 Mana Leak/Negate/Snare/Daze
1 Echoing Truth / Curfew
1 Threads of Disloyalty / Sower of Temptation

1 Scroll
1 VT
1 DT
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral
1 Brainstorm

5 Strips
3 Mox
1 Lotus
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Usea
7 Fetch

So this is looking like BUG Fish, except -4 Goyf +4 Cutpurse and -4 Curse +4 Duress (seems like people weren't liking Cursecatcher these days). This maintains the blue count, but loses the large man factor that Goyf brought to the table.

Thoughts?

[Negator13]

Why not use Dreadnought? A rough list would look like:

4 Dark Confidant
3 Dreadnought
1 V. Clique

4 Stifle
4 FoW
4 Duress/Thoughtseize
3 Daze
4 Null Rod

1 D Tutor
1 V Tutor
1 M Tutor
1 D. Consult
1 M. Scroll
1 Ancestral
1 Brainstorm
1 E. Truth
1 Trickbind
1 Ponder

2 Mox
1 Lotus
1 Petal
5 Strip
2 Factory
4 Delta
4 Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp


This list has a very low curve, a lot of disruption, huge guys, and an impressive tutor suite including Demonic Consult. You could easily tweak alot of the slots/numbers here, ie. Negate/Spell Snare > Daze, running more Duress effects, etc.

[Sean Ryan]

Curfew would be good if Spellstutter Sprite was good. Problem is, Sprite is too conditional.

I got thinking about a list trying to make a list with 8 Duress + Confidant + Goyf + Null Rod. I realized that it's just not happening b/c that alone is 20 non-blue cards. After you throw in the tutor + bounce suite, you're down to 22 non-blue cards, ~15 blue, and ~23 lands. If you want to run a fish list with 8 Duress, you either can't run Null Rod or you can't run Goyf.

A little brainstorming lead me to conclude I'd rather cut Goyf than Rod, so here's the list I came up with (I think this was the direction this deck was going):

4 Confidant
4 Cutpurse
2 Vendilion Clique

4 FoW
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
4 Null Rod
4 Mana Leak/Negate/Snare/Daze
1 Echoing Truth / Curfew
1 Threads of Disloyalty / Sower of Temptation

1 Scroll
1 VT
1 DT
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral
1 Brainstorm

5 Strips
3 Mox
1 Lotus
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Usea
7 Fetch

So this is looking like BUG Fish, except -4 Goyf +4 Cutpurse and -4 Curse +4 Duress (seems like people weren't liking Cursecatcher these days). This maintains the blue count, but loses the large man factor that Goyf brought to the table.

Thoughts?

It looks great against Tezz and TPS, but soft to tier 2 strategies.  Almost like Sulivan Solution with Null Rod instead of Errayou Soratami Ascendant. 

Dreadnought is worth trying I just hate getting 2 for 1'd.  I'm not sure Fish can afford the tempo loss of holding a Dreadnouhgt without Stifle, even for just a few turns

[ErkBek]

4 Mana Leak/Negate/Snare/Daze
1 Echoing Truth / Curfew
1 Threads of Disloyalty / Sower of Temptation

It looks great against Tezz and TPS, but soft to tier 2 strategies.  Almost like Sulivan Solution with Null Rod instead of Errayou Soratami Ascendant. 

Dreadnought is worth trying I just hate getting 2 for 1'd.  I'm not sure Fish can afford the tempo loss of holding a Dreadnouhgt without Stifle, even for just a few turns
[/quote

These 6 slots could be used to shore up matches vs. tier 2 strategies. Probably need to be blue cards here. I'm fine with getting blown out by dredge game 1 and boarding 8ish cards for them. Relics on the board could help vs. Goyfs and Dredge in one swoop. With all the Duress effects and the strips, maybe an Extirpate in the main would be worthwhile.

I could see this deck running the Bitterblossom + Jitte plan on the sideboard.

[TopSecret]

ErkBek, have you considered Tidehollow Strix?

It's a blue card, and it also kills most large guys.
So, it's kind of like 'Goyf in that respect, except it doesn't increase your clock as much.

I understand that 'Goyf fills two roles,
but which one would you prefer to be filled more:
The board presence against creatures and enemy 'Goyfs, or the increase of the clock?

I'm trying to figure out where you're coming from with regard to the shoes 'Goyf's left to fill,
so that I can potentially suggest more Standard cards. (Remand was the bomb!)

[ErkBek]

ErkBek, have you considered Tidehollow Strix?

It's a blue card, and it also kills most large guys.
So, it's kind of like 'Goyf in that respect, except it doesn't increase your clock as much.

I understand that 'Goyf fills two roles,
but which one would you prefer to be filled more:
The board presence against creatures and enemy 'Goyfs, or the increase of the clock?

I'm trying to figure out where you're coming from with regard to the shoes 'Goyf's left to fill,
so that I can potentially suggest more Standard cards. (Remand was the bomb!)

Strix is a really interesting suggestion. I like that he's 2 power, instead of the 1 you'd get out of Waterfront Bouncer. I'll definitely keep him  in mind.

Tarmogoyf is great because he's large in aggro matches and vs. everything else he's such a fast clock. Being a fast clock can functionally generate card advantage b/c it cuts off draw steps. I don't think we're going to find anything else that's blue and is all round as solid as goyf.

If you have any other ideas, please post. I won't bite.

[Phele]

Dreadnought is the fastest clock fish type decks can get - especially in an UB list. Yes it is 2 for 1 (well with Mask it is somewhat different), but it justifies playing at least four Stifle, which becomes from a so so card to one of your best spells, serving as mana denial, utility and some quasi Tinker. Yes it might be hanging in your hand sometimes, but when it hits the table, it is so much faster than Tarmo, that I think you can accept that. And against combo they are both just vanilla beaters. I know that Dreadnoughts has many disadvantages - beside being played 2 for one, it is being very vulnerable. But I would play at least two in every UBx Fish/SS type deck, with access to four Stifle and Vamp/Demonic. It gives the deck the often so much needed Boom

Btw, I seriously thought about Strix already as well (good find TopSecret). And I agree that it really is a card to consider: It blocks down almost everything except Collossus and for the rest of the time it is a two power flyer for two mana, which is not the worst thing. In my Dark Illusions build I would love to play four of them in the sideboard. But it is a petty, it just as vulnerable to everything my main creatures Confidant and Dreadnought are as well - Artefact hate, Threads, Dark Blast. But so what

I also wanted to say, that this is a very interesting thread with very good ideas and lists.

[TopSecret]

If you have any other ideas, please post. I won't bite.

Well, Pestermite is the only other Standard legal guy I can think of.

He's three mana and he doesn't directly answer anything,
but he is a good general application card.

He can act as an apt combat trick when necessary,
flash-blocking a guy, or tapping down 'Goyf for a turn to help you race...etc.

In addition, he can tap down one of the opponent's land during their upkeep to buy time and increase your clock,
though I don't know how relevant that would be, except maybe against a combo player who kept a sketchy hand.

Also, you could add multiple Old Man of the Sea maindeck to deal with creature decks
and act as a beater against everything else, but he doesn't directly answer 'Goyf and he's not Standard Legal.

Oh, Cephalid Constable is Standard Legal, too.
He is decent against creature light decks when he can force opponents to hold back their attackers.
He can act as a solution to Oath, Colossus, and act as pseudo land destruction.
He also has synergy with the discard you pack maindeck.

[ErkBek]

I'm not a fan of Dreadnought without Mask (amongst other various reasons). If my creatures aren't blue, I think I'd rather have Goyf. Also, in the 8 Duress list I posted I'd rather have a counterspell than a stifle.

Petermite seems meh to me. I haven't been a fan of him in any non-limited format, so I don't see him getting it done in T1 either.

Old Man in the main of fish has never really impressed me either. It just seems like the matchups where he'd be really good, he doesn't stick around very long.

Now, Cephalid Constable is very cool. Dropping him in some matchups would keep the opponent on their back foot for almost the entire game. He's got synergy with  Null Rod too, because of the psuedo LD. In a way he's like Dimir Cutpurse, except creates board advantage instead of card advantage, only problem is the opponent can get that board advantage back if they drop a blocker of some sort.

1-2 Pyschatog might be an option to help out with the aggro match and be decent vs. the field. Even though the deck doesn't have an engine to feed him, he lets you dump dead cards vs. aggro to win in combat and he can take out a mid-sized chunk of life in a single swing. I've got to think once every 25 games or so he'd be a strong tutor target in drawn out games when you need a finisher or when Bob damage might be adding up.

Recoil is another option that seems solid with all the discard the deck has going on.

I'm starting to think the ~6 slots should go from:

4 Mana Leak/Negate/Snare/Daze
1 Echoing Truth / Curfew
1 Threads of Disloyalty / Sower of Temptation

to this:

2 Countersquall / Mana Leak
1 Tog
2 Recoil
1 Echoing Truth

I really like having a couple additional counters to supplement FoW in fish decks. 8 duress, 6 counters, and 2 Vendilion should keep their threats in check most games. Recoil is nice for having additional answers to threats on the board, but its discard effect makes it not entirely useless given the hand assault that the deck would already be bringing. Recoiling a land EOT vs. combo isn't the worst play in the world. Recoiling a blocker then swinging with Cutpurse would be living the dream. 

EDIT: If the deck had a single Volcanic in it, Rise // Fall seems pretty solid at doubling as utility and discard too. For reference:

Rise / Fall

Card type: Sorcery

Casting cost: UB/BR

Card text: Return target creature card in a graveyard and target creature in play to their owners' hands. // Target player reveals two cards at random from his or her hand, then discards each nonland card revealed this way.

Maybe I like this card too much, but I think it's really good.

[TopSecret]

ErkBek, have you considered Forbid in one of the extra slots?
Would the potential for the soft lock be too much of a win more scenario?

If you were splashing a single Volcanic, would Jilt be worth it?

[neotrophy]

I do like the Tog idea.  I like it a lot.  Seems like a far better idea that Dreadnought.

TopSecret, I'm really wondering why you mention Standard legality.  Who cares?

[ErkBek]

ErkBek, have you considered Forbid in one of the extra slots?
Would the potential for the soft lock be too much of a win more scenario?

If you were splashing a single Volcanic, would Jilt be worth it?

Not a fan on Forbid in here since it'll be a win more. With the 8 Duress effects and the 2 card a turn draw engine, hitting 1-2 counters a game to seal up the game should be sufficient. If the deck didn't run Null Rod, I could see it as a 1-of for random locks and tutorable hard locks.

Jilt is alright, but not worth splashing Red for alone. Hitting 4 mana game 1 might be kinda rough since most aggro decks play some sort of mana denial too.

Rise // Fall as an answer to large dudes probably won't end up working out the way I want it to. There's a fair chance you won't have a dude in the yard, so you might have to block first. If you're facing down a turn 1 or 2 DSC, you might not have time to drop a blocker and Rise it out of play. There's nothing worse than drawing your solution and then not being able to play it. Rise won't work well vs. Oathed up creatures either. Oath might not even block your dudes.

Being UB sorcery also can be real bad times vs. Titan. At least with Recoil you can float the mana and bounce, resulting in an Armageddon.

I was thinking vs. aggro you'd make a trade, then bounce a dude and get yours back, so you could potentially turn the game around with some tempo and card advantage.

So in conclusion, Rise // Fall probably isn't worth it. It might be a cute card for URBana fish over Waterfront Bouncer given the way URBana plays out. 4 damage off Bobs is never fun though.

I do like the Tog idea.  I like it a lot.  Seems like a far better idea that Dreadnought.

TopSecret, I'm really wondering why you mention Standard legality.  Who cares?

TopSecret said he's give us standard cards, but he's been throwing some older cards at us.

Glad to hear you like the Tog idea too. I do worry about the 3 slot getting a little filled up with Tog, Cutpurse, Recoil, and Clique in a Null Rod deck. The 8 Duress will help this out a lot since the deck will curve well. Might be getting a little greedy in playing 4 Cutpurse and 2 Recoil. Blue answers to large dudes and aggro strategies are very limited though. Recoil and Tog are the best blue cards I've found that hits both and don't totally suck in other situations. Mystical Tutor is probably better than a 2nd Recoil. It helps a little with not dying to Bob and finds good cards.

4 Confidant
4 Cutpurse
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Tog

4 FoW
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
4 Null Rod
2 Mana Leak / Countersquall / etc
1 Recoil
1 Echoing Truth

1 Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor
1 VT
1 DT
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral
1 Brainstorm

5 Strips
3 Mox
1 Lotus
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Usea
7 Fetch

Depending on if you're expecting much for Fish mirrors and/or aggro, another Tog over a Cutpurse seems reasonable. Not sure what the sideboard would look like at this point. Probably play a mix of Planar Voids, Relics, Extirpate and maybe Jailer for Dredge. Relic could double as help vs. aggro in shutting down Goyfs too. Not sure if Jitte + Bitterblossom or EE + Threads/Smother would be better for the aggro matchup. I'm leaning towards Jitte-Blossom since BB is strong vs. Shop decks. Leading with Swamp -> Duress into a turn 2 BB seems really good vs. Shops. A couple Energy Flux or Hurkyl's Recalls would be nice, but I'm not sure they're warranted (plus they get hit by REB). EE helps vs. Oath though. Annul isn't worthwhile since they overlap with Duress.

Not very many cards would come out vs. Drains. Not too many cards to bring in for that matter either, just looking for cards to trump their sideboard plans which Duress effects are amazing at (Sower, threads, firespout/clasm, REB). A rough SB would look like this:

3 Relic
3 Planar Void
1 Extirpate
1 Jailer
4 Blossom
3 Jitte

An answer to something like a Razomane Masticore would be nice. Current list scoops up to Razormane, but seems solid vs. everything else.