Astro City Games 2/28/09

[BoomChild]

7 People turned out to play for the Unlimited Recall and this is what it gave us....

3 Rounds + Top 4

Standing After Swiss...

1 Issac Seigmund w/ Ritual Tezz
2 Chris Boomer w/ Next Level Ichorid
3 Ben Carp w/ "Nautilus"
4 Nick Boomer w/ Hellkite Oath
5 Rusty Steiger w/ Affinity Combo
6 Kurt Maske w/ Mana'd Ichorid
7 John Beste w/ Party Time Stax

Top 4 was split but it would have played out as...

Issac V. Nick
Ben V. Chris

Lists for your reading pleasure...

Issac Siesmund 2-0-1 Ritual Tezzeret

1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Island
3 Dark Ritual
3 Mana Drain
3 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
4 Force of Will
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Gifts Ungiven
3 THirst for Knowledge
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Time Walk
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Echoing Truth
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Tinker
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Necropotence
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Yawgmoth's Will


Chris Boomer 2-0-1 Next Level Ichorid

1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
1 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Bridge from Below
2 Dread Return
2 Unmask
2 Darkblast
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
4 Breakthrough
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
3 Nether Shadow
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Putrid Imp
4 Ichorid
2 Ashen Ghoul
4 Nacromeoba


Ben Carp 2-1 "Nautilus"

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
3 Daze
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
1 Echoing Truth
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Trygon Predator
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor


Nick Boomer 2-1 Hellkite Oath

1 Island
1 Stripmine
2 Wasteland
4 Forbidden Orchard
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Misdirection
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ponder
1 Wipe Away
1 Gaea's Blessing
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Brainstorm
1 Scroll Rack
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Hellkite Overlord
2 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Oath of Druids
4 Impulse
4 Negate
4 Force of Will

[BoomChild]

Some interesting moments from this tournament....

Round 2 vs Issac....

Game 3 we are tied 1-1... Issac is at one life w/ Necro in play.  He tinkers for Time Vault w/ Mana for activation through Voltaic Key... With no cards in hand takes a lot of turns and I bring up the fact that he actually can't kill me with no win condition.  So that was a fun draw.

Round 1...

Rusty - "Bad plays Rusty now I can't play this frogmite...."  said after casting Master of Etherium w/ Black Lotus, getting it countered, and only have 3 artifacts in play.
Chris - "Welcome to Frown Town... Population Rusty."

[Mantis]

Round 2 vs Issac....

Game 3 we are tied 1-1... Issac is at one life w/ Necro in play.  He tinkers for Time Vault w/ Mana for activation through Voltaic Key... With no cards in hand takes a lot of turns and I bring up the fact that he actually can't kill me with no win condition.  So that was a fun draw.

Please don't tell he had other Tinker targets in his library and had no realistic way of killing him the following turn

[Tha Gunslinga]

Well, he was at 1 vs Ichorid who had a guy on the board, and he couldn't draw any more cards because of Necro, and presumably Ichorid could just make more guys and kill him, so drawing the game was his best option.

[Caladan]

Wouldn't he have to eventually choose to stop the loop? Its not like a dragon draw where dragon is the only target and you have to animate it so the loop continues. Since he is choosing each time to untap or not to untap wouldn't he eventually have to choose not to untap? Otherwise it just seems like stalling.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

Wouldn't he have to eventually choose to stop the loop? Its not like a dragon draw where dragon is the only target and you have to animate it so the loop continues. Since he is choosing each time to untap or not to untap wouldn't he eventually have to choose not to untap? Otherwise it just seems like stalling.

I'm prety sure at the very least he has a minute to decide to do something and at the very least can run out the clock, which was at like 2 min.

[Isaac85]

I could have gotten dsc. That would have held at bay the 1 token however if he had any other creatures I would just have died. Also I didn't think it was a bad choice when I did it to drawl out the game. In the 4th game I think I might have won if it didn't go to time but o well. I know my hand writing is pretty bad and I think from now on I will have the to's put my name on my reg sheet for me.

Isaac Siegmund

[Purple Hat]

Wouldn't he have to eventually choose to stop the loop? Its not like a dragon draw where dragon is the only target and you have to animate it so the loop continues. Since he is choosing each time to untap or not to untap wouldn't he eventually have to choose not to untap? Otherwise it just seems like stalling.

I'm prety sure at the very least he has a minute to decide to do something and at the very least can run out the clock, which was at like 2 min.

No....that's stalling.  You can't just sit there for a minute and do nothing every turn.  he has to end the loop at some point because it's voluntary.  this should definitely be a loss at least since a judge should rule he has to end the loop.  This is covered in the rules forum.

Isaac,
if you had DSC why couldn't you kill your opponent once you were taking infinite turns?

[Almighty]

Wouldn't he have to eventually choose to stop the loop? Its not like a dragon draw where dragon is the only target and you have to animate it so the loop continues. Since he is choosing each time to untap or not to untap wouldn't he eventually have to choose not to untap? Otherwise it just seems like stalling.

I'm prety sure at the very least he has a minute to decide to do something and at the very least can run out the clock, which was at like 2 min.

No....that's stalling.  You can't just sit there for a minute and do nothing every turn.  he has to end the loop at some point because it's voluntary.  this should definitely be a loss at least since a judge should rule he has to end the loop.  This is covered in the rules forum.

Isaac,
if you had DSC why couldn't you kill your opponent once you were taking infinite turns?

He was at 1 life with Necro in play and no cards in hand.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Wouldn't he have to eventually choose to stop the loop? Its not like a dragon draw where dragon is the only target and you have to animate it so the loop continues. Since he is choosing each time to untap or not to untap wouldn't he eventually have to choose not to untap? Otherwise it just seems like stalling.

I'm prety sure at the very least he has a minute to decide to do something and at the very least can run out the clock, which was at like 2 min.

No....that's stalling.  You can't just sit there for a minute and do nothing every turn.  he has to end the loop at some point because it's voluntary.  this should definitely be a loss at least since a judge should rule he has to end the loop.  This is covered in the rules forum.

Isaac,
if you had DSC why couldn't you kill your opponent once you were taking infinite turns?

You're misunderstanding this.  He had Tinker and Key out.  He Tinkered.  He could get DSC and lose to two guys, or Time Vault and draw.  He could not get both.  DSC and Vault were both in his deck.

[OwenTheEnchanter]

I beleive what happened was he had Voltiac Key out and a Necropotence (at 1 life and locked out of draw steps for the rest of the game). So his options were get DSC and never win, or get Time Vault and 'draw'.

Its been pointed out that this 'draw' is technically cheating but it was a 7 person tournament and I don't think Isaac (or anyone else there) is rules savvy enough to realize that.

[Little Joe]

I beleive what happened was he had Voltiac Key out and a Necropotence (at 1 life and locked out of draw steps for the rest of the game). So his options were get DSC and never win, or get Time Vault and 'draw'.

Its been pointed out that this 'draw' is technically cheating but it was a 7 person tournament and I don't think Isaac (or anyone else there) is rules savvy enough to realize that.

This is most likely.

[Purple Hat]

Wouldn't he have to eventually choose to stop the loop? Its not like a dragon draw where dragon is the only target and you have to animate it so the loop continues. Since he is choosing each time to untap or not to untap wouldn't he eventually have to choose not to untap? Otherwise it just seems like stalling.

I'm prety sure at the very least he has a minute to decide to do something and at the very least can run out the clock, which was at like 2 min.

No....that's stalling.  You can't just sit there for a minute and do nothing every turn.  he has to end the loop at some point because it's voluntary.  this should definitely be a loss at least since a judge should rule he has to end the loop.  This is covered in the rules forum.

Isaac,
if you had DSC why couldn't you kill your opponent once you were taking infinite turns?

You're misunderstanding this.  He had Tinker and Key out.  He Tinkered.  He could get DSC and lose to two guys, or Time Vault and draw.  He could not get both.  DSC and Vault were both in his deck.

You can't get time vault and draw.  At some point you're required to end a voluntary infinite loop.  You can't simply sit there and take repetitive actions until a draw occurs, and if you try to take 1 minute every turn to make exactly the same decisions you made last turn you should be called for stalling.  Here is a link to the rules forum where this is discussed: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37010.0

I didn't see the necro thing, that explains it.

[Nefarias]

At least with the Key he was in a better situation than a normal DSC standoff. He could've gotten DSC and still been in a position to attack since he could untap the big guy with the Key for blocks. Of course, that plan fails if Ichorid can make another guy, which seems likely, but it's better than an illegal draw.

[dicemanx]

I agree that the current rules strongly indicate that you are not allowed to use Time Vault forever to "draw" the game. However, a draw to me should intuitively be the correct result, since this falls into a different type of category of "loop" where actions are actually completed in entirely different turns (thus a little different than stalling with Seeker of Skybreak for instance). In the above linked discussion in the rules forum, there was a claim made by Clariax that inaction leading to the infinite repetition of the loop should result in a draw, even though there is an action the player can take to break the loop (for instance, WGD goes off to attempt a draw, while either player holds a Disenchant in their hand; the player with the Disenchant is under no obligation to break the loop and the game is thus a draw).

I would argue that the Time Vault case is similar, in that the activation of Time Vault during each turn actually *results in a tangible, measurable gain* for the player, and should thus be considered progress (unlike using Seeker infinitely, which doesn't result in any tangible gain). What stops the progress afterward is the inaction, akin to the case Clariax discussed. I would suggest that a player cannot be forced to stop a tangible gain, just like he cannot be forced into action if the loop is one of inaction.

I understand that this argument isn't that convincing, but if we accept the starting premise that the scenario "should" result in a draw, then this is one way of "bending" the rules to reach the conclusion that the game is a draw.

[MEATROCKET]

I would argue that the Time Vault case is similar, in that the activation of Time Vault during each turn actually *results in a tangible, measurable gain* for the player, and should thus be considered progress (unlike using Seeker infinitely, which doesn't result in any tangible gain). What stops the progress afterward is the inaction, akin to the case Clariax discussed. I would suggest that a player cannot be forced to stop a tangible gain, just like he cannot be forced into action if the loop is one of inaction.

If my board consists of only Island, Voltaic Key, Time Vault, and Necropotence and I have no cards in my hand (or no cards to draw/tutor) and I'm at one life, what "tangible, measurable gain" do I get by taking more turns?  From what I understand, that was essentially the situation at this event which led to a draw.  Do you agree with that decision?

[credmond]

The tangible measurable gain is in the sense that you are actively taking away the opponent's turn, his draw, and his attack with each vault activation.

I don't think a loop should be able to be defined as spanning beyond the course of a turn. If a loop can be defined this way currently then that is probably incorrect. Getting a draw in this way by assembling vault + key (which would normally be a win except for necro) does not seem like abuse at all. A draw should be the minimal result if a player can reach the game state of being able to lock the other player out of taking any turns. Taking away the draw result from a player who achieves that is robbing him or her based on a rules technicality.

[M.Solymossy]

Although this does not create a loop like the Worldgorger Dragon combo when there are no other possible ways to get another creature into the graveyard, it still creates a looping gamestate.

0 cards in hand, and no way to draw cards.  With Key + Vault in play, you do create a gamestate that is neverending, thus creating a stall.

[credmond]

When a player achieves a game state of being able to infinitely loop turns then logically and intuitively the result should be that that player can at the very least achieve a draw. Those kind of game states aren't easy to achieve and normally result in outright wins. Forcing a player to stop locking another player out of being able to take turns seems counter-intuitive.

An overall objective of any set of rules is that they are logical, coherent, and sensible and fairly applied. Forcing a player, who has successfully locked another player out of being able to take turns, to give up his earned "intuitive" draw highlights an illogical result to the rules as they currently stand.

[LordHomerCat]

Uhm, if the board and game state does not change from turn to turn, shouldn't this be handled like loops in general?  That is, you declare how many times you want to repeat the loop, your opponent then decides if he wants to interrupt sometime before that number, and then you step ahead to the end.  How is this different than just performing the Bomberman 'infinite' combo?

It seems to me like this game is not going to be a draw, as you aren't doing anything different so you should be using the standard loop shortcut.  If I sat there with Bomberman for half an hour returning and replaying lotus one iteration at a time, it's pretty clear that I'm stalling and need to be using the shortcuts which are in place.  This situation seems the same to me.  If you were drawing cards or something it would be different of course, as the game state would change every turn and you'd have to either discard or cast things eventually, but in the state given there are no required actions that would break the loop.

Of course, I'm not saying that the players in question were cheating or anything.  It would be up to the judge to make the specific ruling.  The opponent in this case should call the judge and see what the head judge said, but if it were me, this seems like it's just a regular loop so you should have to set a number, run it that many times, then do something else.

Also, the rules are what they are.  If you have the choice between following the rules or causing the supposed "intuitive" result, you always follow the rules.

[Suicideking]

I have to agree with LHC here.  Unless the DCI comes out and says you have the right to draw a game out to keep from getting a lose, you would just have to finish your infinite loop at some point.  If a judge determined that if you can prevent either player from winning then it is a draw then drawing is fair.

[Tobi]

Are the sideboards of the listed decks available somewhere?

Very nice decklist, Isaac. I noticed there are 3 maindeck cards missing. Can you tell which ones these are?

[Isaac85]

Are the sideboards of the listed decks available somewhere?

Very nice deck list, Isaac. I noticed there are 3 main deck cards missing. Can you tell which ones these are?

ponder, ancestral recall, brainstorm

My penman ship isn't the greatest and I could have missed these on my reg sheet. I don't think I did but hey anythings possible when you don't get that much sleep then drive a couple of hours.

I would also like to say this about the play I made. I know I posted above that what I thought I did at the time was the right call. It still might be and I know others think not but I wanted to make everyone understand that if I thought what I had done was considered cheating or stalling I wouldn't have considered the time vault and tried to think of something else. It wasn't mentioned that I vamped for the tinker and then payed 1 to drawl it. I could have done something else but as I said before I thought it was the right play at the time.