[Free Article] So Many Insane Plays : Glorious Grow

[Smmenen]

Does this sound familiar?  :

You want to play in the upcoming Waterbury, but you aren't sure what you want to play.    You test the same decks over and over.   You've played Tezzeret. You've tried TPS.  You kinda like Shaymora.  You don't want to play Stax or Ichorid, and none of the other choices seem satisfying.    

There is another option.    

Taking a break from my Legacy work, I've developed a deck that I think is an excellent option for the upcoming Waterbury.   If you are interested in playing in the Waterbury, but you aren't sure what to play, put this archetype on your gauntlet.   In this article, I explore the historical precedent for this archetype, various card options, and share several configurations I've developed.    I hope you like it!

Check it out:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/17157_So_Many_Insane_Plays_Glorious_Grow.html

I'll be happy to answer any questions you have.  

Note: Please do not request or post the decklists in this article in this thread; thanks.  

[CHOZO]

Why don't either of your lists run Gifts Ungiven? You have all the other cards needed to get a guaranteed Time Vault/Voltaic Key.

[zeus-online]

This is pretty far away from your previous statement that "Grow is dead, even if Gush was unrestricted"....That said, i agree that gush could turn it into a pretty good deck.

I'm very sceptical of the fastbond though, you only have 1 gush....Seems like a dead draw to me.

Did you test dryad's in the last version, with confidant and sleight? It seems like at that point the dryad might actually grow fast enough to be relevant.

/Zeus

[deadlock]

deleted: nvm

[KillemallCFH]

As you requested, I won't post the list here, but your GAT 2k9 list towards the end of the article seems to be missing 3 cards from the maindeck. I'm assuming Tinker + two other unknowns (Vault/Key maybe?).

[Smmenen]

As you requested, I won't post the list here, but your GAT 2k9 list towards the end of the article seems to be missing 3 cards from the maindeck. I'm assuming Tinker + two other unknowns (Vault/Key maybe?).

There should be 18 mana sources and 42 spells.  I count 40 mana sources, so the missing two cards are Tinker/Colossus. 

Why don't either of your lists run Gifts Ungiven? You have all the other cards needed to get a guaranteed Time Vault/Voltaic Key.

I tested both it and Fact.  They were too expensive, but your mileage may vary. 

This is pretty far away from your previous statement that "Grow is dead, even if Gush was unrestricted"....That said, i agree that gush could turn it into a pretty good deck.

I'm very sceptical of the fastbond though, you only have 1 gush....Seems like a dead draw to me.

Did you test dryad's in the last version, with confidant and sleight? It seems like at that point the dryad might actually grow fast enough to be relevant.

/Zeus

Fastbond is mostly there for yawg will, and since Zach ran it, I'd include it as well.

Singleton gush is amazing.  Look at the Waterbury GATs I listed -- they all ran 1 Gush. 

[zeus-online]

My comment was about fastbond being a dead draw...not gush! that card is huuuge.

/Zeus

[Smmenen]

My mistake - I was read your post too quickly.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

I'm also curious as to how relevant you found fastbond to be when you have drawn it. Without the ability to chain gushes isn't it either win more or almost dead aside from maybe dropping an extra land a turn early if you get it quick enough?

[Smmenen]

In the first list, Strategic Grow, i used Time Vault as the win condition.    If that's the route you want to take, then Fastbond is not necessary.   But if you want to win using Tendrils (post-Will), as both Zach and I do for the Bob/Sleight approach, then it's worth it.   Fastbond allows you to replay a couple of fetches from your graveyard and lands drawn into hand that turn and translate that into a few more storm to achieve the lethal storm/mana counts you need to kill with Tendrils.   

EDIT: Even if you haven't drawn or played your singleton Gush before you begin your Yawg Will turn, chances are you'll find it mid-Will, and the Fastbond will help you squeeze maximum juices out of it.  In fact, I'd probably tutor up Gush before Acall if you have Fastbond available. 

[Caladan]

While Fastbond can provide some fairly explosive starts from time to time, my main purpose for including it is to aid in casting a tendrils. On the will turns it acts like a dark ritual or two, generating anywhere from 2 to 7 mana in combination with your gush and the fetches you have already used. Often the tendrils will only be for 8-14 damage, and the fastbond makes up for the lack of rituals when comboing with will. I included it for the same reason as Steven. It makes will so much better and much more productive.

In testing I found myself playing an early bob (hopefully) or dryad, attacking for 6 to 10 damage, and then I would go for will and try to win with tendrils, but should that fail you are left with a lot of cards and/or a very large dryad or multiple dark confidants.  At the tournament, however, Will was often unnecessary, and I only ended up casting it twice all day, but it is a very nice plan should the shit actually hit the fan and you do find yourself trying to catch up, as will is pretty good at that. The card advantage from Dark Confidant coupled with the cheap library manipulation and duress effects is what really made my deck roll.

I realize a lot of what I just said is probably pretty obvious, but I thought it might be good to hear affirmation of what most of you were probably deducing before playing with the deck yourself. That is pretty much what you can expect from it.  It is not very will-centric at all, which can be very nice, but it is very confidant-oriented. Also, the deck flips to confidant very well, which makes running the 7 fetches and 4 thoughtseizes not as painful as they might otherwise appear when put with bob.

Steven, I think you should give dryad another look. Tarmogoyf can grow very fast because both players are working towards that end, but dryad will almost always do at least as much damage as goyf, but she can do so much more. Often she gains +3/+3 from when you play her to the start of your next attack step.

Edit: Steven, I have to agree that Imperial Seal is a very good card for this deck, and I did not give it enough consideration. I am glad you brought it up - I had forgotten all about it! It was probably an oversight on my part not to include it.

[zeus-online]

Have either of you found 1 ponder, 1 BS and 4 sleight to be enough? otherwise there's still opt left to fill the holes...

I Really like the 6-8 duress effects approach....They're truly great in these decks as they never get in the way for doing other things.

(I.E. Turn one you go land, duress, turn two land, mox, duress, some critter)

These versions actually seems (on paper) to be better against shops then their predecessors.

/Zeus

[Smmenen]

@ Zach, nice to "meet" you online.   I was really impressed with your list and your performance.   This deck is very exciting.  It's obvious from your post (and your list) that you know Vintage very well.    I quizzed Paul about you, but he said you were just a random :p   I had virtually finished writing this article when the Pitts TO posted your list, and it prompted to me to explain some of my choices even more carefully.   I think this deck could be a great in the Waterbury field.   I forgot to also mention that I liked how the T. Crypt synergized with both Tinker and Tendrils.  That's definitely another card to consider. 

[Caladan]

As far as 1-cost cantrips go, I like the singleton top as well.  I think you have to look at the engine of the deck, though, and that is 4 sleight, 4 dark confidant, 1 gush, 1 top, 1 bstorm, 1 ponder, essentially the cantrips and the continuous cantrip (bob). I have also added 2 Impulses for additional digging power.  Altogether I think that this is enough, at least so far.  The one problem that I have run into, though, is that without DC or acall or gush it can be difficult to maintain hand size if you come under a lot of pressure. But this really only comes up in the combo matchup when your hand is quickly expended on countermagic, duresses, and cantripping to find more of the same.

Nice to "meet" you as well, Steven. I definitely came to appreciate the Tormod's Crypt. Its inclusion in the maindeck is for a number of reasons: Tinker out of the board, Tendrils pump, miser's card against the otherwise nigh-impossible game 1 against ichorid, and to save on sideboard space as I wanted at least 7 ichorid hate cards post board. How have the Leylines been for you? They cannot be unmasked which is very nice, but i fear their casting cost making them difficult to be relevant later on in the match.  I did not have as much success with them as I did with the extirpates.

[Smmenen]

To be quite honest, I have not tested this particular iteration of GAT against Ichorid, but I have extensive experience with pre-restriction GAT against Ichorid, and I was simply employing/suggesting the same sideboard strategy.   I agree that Leylines might be a bit painful with Dark Confidant, but I do not see Dark Confidant as particularly important post-board against Ichorid.   In fact, I think that you could potentially sideboard a few out, or just exercise common sense restraint and avoid playing multiple Confidants.    My concerns with Extirpate is that it simply does not do enough.   If one were to swap out Leyline - a perfectly sensible choice -- I would be inclined to increase the number of Jailers first.   Do you plan on attending the Waterbury? 

[Caladan]

My concern is not so much for damage off confidant, taking 4 from a single flip is not too large a worry for me should leyline prove the superior choice; rather I am concerned by how quickly one can arrive at 4 mana to cast leyline should it not be in your opener, if it should become bounced, or if it is destroyed and you draw a replacement. Extirpate by itself does not do enough, your concerns are justified. At the tournament I extirpated three times against ichorid and crypted once in a single game and it was nearly not enough. But extirpate coupled with crypt and a beater is often a sufficient delaying tactic. By nuking their moebas or bridges one can buy enough time to find a crypt to set them back further or build an attacker up enough to kill them in enough time.

My point is simply that while Leyline has the single most powerful effect, its casting cost is what makes it difficult for me to handle; it would be almost unplayable early enough if the first is removed to remain an impact. And its the game where your hate is in but you are on the draw that worries me the most for that situation. Jailer seems a fine choice, though.

Unfortunately, at this time I do not plan to attend the Waterbury.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

My concern is not so much for damage off confidant, taking 4 from a single flip is not too large a worry for me should leyline prove the superior choice; rather I am concerned by how quickly one can arrive at 4 mana to cast leyline should it not be in your opener, if it should become bounced, or if it is destroyed and you draw a replacement. Extirpate by itself does not do enough, your concerns are justified. At the tournament I extirpated three times against ichorid and crypted once in a single game and it was nearly not enough. But extirpate coupled with crypt and a beater is often a sufficient delaying tactic. By nuking their moebas or bridges one can buy enough time to find a crypt to set them back further or build an attacker up enough to kill them in enough time.

My point is simply that while Leyline has the single most powerful effect, its casting cost is what makes it difficult for me to handle; it would be almost unplayable early enough if the first is removed to remain an impact. And its the game where your hate is in but you are on the draw that worries me the most for that situation. Jailer seems a fine choice, though.

Unfortunately, at this time I do not plan to attend the Waterbury.

Well Planar Void does the same thing for 3 less mana but it affects you also which would slow you down also. The plus side is that it obviously comes down faster if its not in your opening hand, doesn't cost 4 life with Bob, and can be cast easily if one is destroyed or recast if bounced. Oh and it obviously hurts Ichorid a lot more than it will hurt you. XD

[zeus-online]

My concern is not so much for damage off confidant, taking 4 from a single flip is not too large a worry for me should leyline prove the superior choice; rather I am concerned by how quickly one can arrive at 4 mana to cast leyline should it not be in your opener, if it should become bounced, or if it is destroyed and you draw a replacement. Extirpate by itself does not do enough, your concerns are justified. At the tournament I extirpated three times against ichorid and crypted once in a single game and it was nearly not enough. But extirpate coupled with crypt and a beater is often a sufficient delaying tactic. By nuking their moebas or bridges one can buy enough time to find a crypt to set them back further or build an attacker up enough to kill them in enough time.

My point is simply that while Leyline has the single most powerful effect, its casting cost is what makes it difficult for me to handle; it would be almost unplayable early enough if the first is removed to remain an impact. And its the game where your hate is in but you are on the draw that worries me the most for that situation. Jailer seems a fine choice, though.

Unfortunately, at this time I do not plan to attend the Waterbury.

Well Planar Void does the same thing for 3 less mana but it affects you also which would slow you down also. The plus side is that it obviously comes down faster if its not in your opening hand, doesn't cost 4 life with Bob, and can be cast easily if one is destroyed or recast if bounced. Oh and it obviously hurts Ichorid a lot more than it will hurt you. XD

Planar void kinda negates the use of Tarmogoyf though. And just like leyline you really need it in your opener for it to be truly effective.
Personally i'd go for Crypts, jailers (Awesome vs. ich) or needles.

[chrissss]

- 2 Mana Drain

should be negate.

I will build the deck myself and test it to see if it does what you say it does.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

My concern is not so much for damage off confidant, taking 4 from a single flip is not too large a worry for me should leyline prove the superior choice; rather I am concerned by how quickly one can arrive at 4 mana to cast leyline should it not be in your opener, if it should become bounced, or if it is destroyed and you draw a replacement. Extirpate by itself does not do enough, your concerns are justified. At the tournament I extirpated three times against ichorid and crypted once in a single game and it was nearly not enough. But extirpate coupled with crypt and a beater is often a sufficient delaying tactic. By nuking their moebas or bridges one can buy enough time to find a crypt to set them back further or build an attacker up enough to kill them in enough time.

My point is simply that while Leyline has the single most powerful effect, its casting cost is what makes it difficult for me to handle; it would be almost unplayable early enough if the first is removed to remain an impact. And its the game where your hate is in but you are on the draw that worries me the most for that situation. Jailer seems a fine choice, though.

Unfortunately, at this time I do not plan to attend the Waterbury.

Well Planar Void does the same thing for 3 less mana but it affects you also which would slow you down also. The plus side is that it obviously comes down faster if its not in your opening hand, doesn't cost 4 life with Bob, and can be cast easily if one is destroyed or recast if bounced. Oh and it obviously hurts Ichorid a lot more than it will hurt you. XD

Planar void kinda negates the use of Tarmogoyf though. And just like leyline you really need it in your opener for it to be truly effective.
Personally i'd go for Crypts, jailers (Awesome vs. ich) or needles.

I agree that Planar isn't that effective but since you'll likely be losing game 1 and be on the play it is still better than Leyline since you could always use vamp/demonic as a 5th/6th copy and replay it if they run Chain of Vapor. I've always thought (like you) that crypts/jailers/needles are better answers though since they give you more control and flexibility. Jailer is Planar with a body (helps against Fish which should cause problems), Crypt does almost the same thing for no mana so you can use mana to find more hate(also an artifact for goyf), and Needle works against any Bazaar decks and Welder/Transmuter decks as well. In addition to that if they SB in Reverent Silence you completely dodge it. This isn't saying that Planar and Leyline aren't extremely powerful this is more personal preferences.

[Troy_Costisick]

I've always thought (like you) that crypts/jailers/needles are better answers though since they give you more control and flexibility.

I think that's a reasonable statement.  Leyline of the Void is an excellent hoser against fast combo decks like Flash and Dragon.  Against Ichorid, you'll get a turn or two before things get out of hand.  Since most of them pack answers for Leyline in their SB if not even in their MD, having multiple and cheap foils to their strategy is important IMO (though I would like to include Wasteland in that list).  I'm not saying that Stephen is wrong for playing Leylines in his deck, far from it.  His GAT deck packs enough countermagic to deal with the Emerald Charms and Chains of Vapor.  But in a more general sense, I feel the above quote is valid.

Peace,

-Troy

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

I've always thought (like you) that crypts/jailers/needles are better answers though since they give you more control and flexibility.

I think that's a reasonable statement.  Leyline of the Void is an excellent hoser against fast combo decks like Flash and Dragon.  Against Ichorid, you'll get a turn or two before things get out of hand.  Since most of them pack answers for Leyline in their SB if not even in their MD, having multiple and cheap foils to their strategy is important IMO (though I would like to include Wasteland in that list).  I'm not saying that Stephen is wrong for playing Leylines in his deck, far from it.  His GAT deck packs enough countermagic to deal with the Emerald Charms and Chains of Vapor.  But in a more general sense, I feel the above quote is valid.

Peace,

-Troy

I didn't want to include Wasteland because it isn't something you could really sideboard in. In my opinion it is maindeck material or moot since it faces the same problem as the Voids in that it is very narrow in the SB. I suppose you can still bring it in against other Bazaar decks but Pithing does the same thing in addition to also stopping the other 3xBazaars. Bringing it in against Shops seems sub-par since you would probably be better off attacking artifacts than hoping to hit a Shop. Also Wasteland still leaves room for 1xBazaar activation which is usually all Ichorid needs unless you get a second piece of disruption also. I'd rather be running Planar Void than a SB Wasteland since every deck Wasteland hits Void hits at least as hard. Best case scenario for waste while worst for void is shop decks where waste hits shops but void hits welders+is a permanent for smokey/wire. Not to mention Void hits more decks. As maindeck material goes though Wasteland is clearly superior as part of a mana denial package than Void as part of a graveyard denial package.

[Roat17]

My concern is not so much for damage off confidant, taking 4 from a single flip is not too large a worry for me should leyline prove the superior choice; rather I am concerned by how quickly one can arrive at 4 mana to cast leyline should it not be in your opener, if it should become bounced, or if it is destroyed and you draw a replacement. Extirpate by itself does not do enough, your concerns are justified. At the tournament I extirpated three times against ichorid and crypted once in a single game and it was nearly not enough. But extirpate coupled with crypt and a beater is often a sufficient delaying tactic. By nuking their moebas or bridges one can buy enough time to find a crypt to set them back further or build an attacker up enough to kill them in enough time.

My point is simply that while Leyline has the single most powerful effect, its casting cost is what makes it difficult for me to handle; it would be almost unplayable early enough if the first is removed to remain an impact. And its the game where your hate is in but you are on the draw that worries me the most for that situation. Jailer seems a fine choice, though.

Unfortunately, at this time I do not plan to attend the Waterbury.

Well Planar Void does the same thing for 3 less mana but it affects you also which would slow you down also. The plus side is that it obviously comes down faster if its not in your opening hand, doesn't cost 4 life with Bob, and can be cast easily if one is destroyed or recast if bounced. Oh and it obviously hurts Ichorid a lot more than it will hurt you. XD

Previously, the replacement effect of Leyline made it vastly superior to Planar Void.  I do believe that is based on Ray of Revelation (flashback for  to destroy target enchantment).  When Ichorid used this, you just play it while the Void removal effect is on the stack.  So if Ichorid players use Ray, then Leyline is much better. However it doesn't appear that many lists now run Ray.

Personally I prefer a mix of cards, totalling 5-7.  Jailors, Needles, and Crypts perhaps.  I only really like using leyline when I am playing +4 duress effects and it's useful in other matchups.  This makes you more resilient to their Therapies and means that you can bring in needles against Welders, Tez, and Crypts against Y. Will decks.  On the same token, Leyline pretty much covers the same bases as the Jailors + Crypts and running 4 leylines instead of 5-6 of the others can free up more SB room for decks that will be more frequently facing you (fish-type, blue control).

[ra_2_soldier]

I put Zach's list together and was thinking about playing it for the B-more tourney but I had some trouble with r/g beats(which I thought was gonna be popular but turns out there were  0). I ended up not playing it but was wondering what your whole s/b plan was and how you feel the matchup is.  This was of course with dryad and not tarmogoyf. I just felt as though I didn't have answers and a lethal tendrills was out of reach.

[Smmenen]

Lol, you mean the budget deck I designed a few months ago that Troy has worked on/advocated for?   Yeah, well, that probably a tough matchup.    I would suggest Tinker + Leviathan to help it, as Stingscourger can do nothing against Leviathan.   The good news is that Null Rod does little against your deck.    But you definitely want Goyf over Dryad in that match. 

[chrissss]

Have you ever tried mulldrifter in this deck? 3 mana 2 cards instant, and a boost for your goyf  isnt too bad imo.  Just a thought.

[Troy_Costisick]

Have you ever tried mulldrifter in this deck? 3 mana 2 cards instant, and a boost for your goyf  isnt too bad imo.  Just a thought.

It costs 3 mana and must be played at sorcery speed.  That's just too uncomfortable for a typical GAT deck to deal with.  If they don't usually include Frantic Search in a GAT list, they certainly won't include something like Mulldrifter. 

I put Zach's list together and was thinking about playing it for the B-more tourney but I had some trouble with r/g beats(which I thought was gonna be popular but turns out there were  0).

Really?  That is just disapointing.  Anyway, Stephen's suggestions are good.  IMHO, Tinker into the right target is the answer to almost any deck in the format right now.  It's the best single play that you can make.

Peace,

-Troy

[chrissss]

Have you ever tried mulldrifter in this deck? 3 mana 2 cards instant, and a boost for your goyf  isnt too bad imo.  Just a thought.

It costs 3 mana and must be played at sorcery speed.  That's just too uncomfortable for a typical GAT deck to deal with.  If they don't usually include Frantic Search in a GAT list, they certainly won't include something like Mulldrifter. 

My bad, I thought it could be played at instant.

[Smmenen]

I'll write a full tournament report for my article on Monday, but I got third place at the Waterbury with this archetype.   I didn't lose a match until the Ichorid match in the top 4.  I blew game three against Ichorid that would have launched me into a very favorable finals, but oh well.  I made a few tweaks from the list I posted in this article. 

In some ways, Grow felt even MORE powerful than it did at the height of the Gush era, since everyone was completely unprepared for it.   

[Lancelot]

I made top4 last saturday with Grow-a-goyf here in Quebec. I used Steve's list, but I cut some cards including the drains for 3 Counterbalances and 2 Top's. As a legacy player, i'm kinda sold on those and I found myself mana burnin' way to often for my liking with drain's mana... Top also play quite nice with bob as everybody know: I was able to drop two confidants quite often, without fear of getting killed by them, as we run quite few high cc (FoW, Tendril's, Gush, Inkwell)!

Anyway counterbalances were amazing, they won me some games I had no business to win. I also used some Mongoose sideboard, as a counter-threads strategy: that too worked quite nicely, won me my top8 match on his own against Landstill. I had 2 Trygon side for the aggro shop match, maybe because i'm a BUG fish player;) and I have to say that I won the match on this guy back only!

Cheers! Thank you Steve for that list, I had a load of fun during the weekend!