TPS players

[XxtSundaybxX]

Necropotence is probably the best bomb in any ritual based storm deck. Its very often the first card I will tutor for if its pretty early in the game. The reason I feel this way is because when you consider everything about necro, its the best all around bomb. It doesn't require a ton of resources invested(a single ritual vs 2+ for bargain). It allows you to see as many cards as you have life meanwhile your opponent sees no cards(from necro). I also can't recall a time where I lost a game because i had to pass the turn after i resolved necro(except a storm mirror). Again most of these examples are based on the early game, Which is when I would want my best bomb.

From briefly looking at the current meta deck choices, Empty the warrens seems like a card to try and keep you in the game(giving you blockers or getting you a few guys who will be blocked by better creatures your opponent has) rather than a win now card. As a storm pilot i prefer to play the offensive role, rather than spend all of my resources to "stay in the game" unless of course its absolutely necessary.

[jamestosetti]

I thought I should probably post my list to get some feedback before I spent too much more time testing this version of the deck. The soul win condition is Tendrils of Agony. The strategy is to set up the Memory Jar. Quite a few cards have been cut to better facilitate this strategy as well as to implement other cards to try to push it through. Lim-Dul's Vault is something I have used in Legacy ANT to quickly assemble the combo when hate bears are prevalent in the meta. This card also works very well with the jar. You can set up some very powerful plays with vault and a draw spell, or the jar in particular. When I played Vintage a long time ago Lion's Eye Diamond was not played in Tps. This card can facilitate some fairly broken plays.

Workshop decks are very good, but quite a few are possibly being forced to omit some lock pieces to accommodate other matches making this matchup a little better in those instances. Null Rod is something that I expect to see in main decks from time-to-time, especially in creature decks, so I have 2 Chain of Vapors in the main deck as well as 2 Hurkel's Recalls. 4 main deck Thoughtseize also combat the same archetypes. I was fairly used to playing it in Legacy, and the life loss hasn't cost me yet. I also run 2 Cabal Rituals because it is probable the I will run into Mental Misstep.

I have cut Time Walk, Gifts Ungiven, Imperial Seal, all red spells, and the artifact creature for Tinker. Cutting these cards allows me to place more emphases on clearing the board of lock pieces and hate bears to crack a much better Memory Jar. 3 Force of Wills are very effective, and I do not want to pitch too many cards, especially since I am likely to lose my Dark Rituals to Mental Misstep. The deck can make some very powerful, but more complex plays, so it is necessary to pay a lot of attention to possible lines of play.

Here is the List:

Swamp
Island
Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
Tolarian Academy
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn

Black Lotus
Mox Sapphire
Mox Jet
Mox Ruby
Mox Pearl
Mox Emerald
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lotus Petal
Mana Crypt
Sol Ring
Mana Vault

Memory Jar
Sensei's Divining Top


3 Force of Will
Ancestral Recall
Merchant Scroll
Mind's Desire
Mystical Tutor
Brainstorm
Ponder
Tinker
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Hurkel's Recall
2 Gitaxian Probe
Time Twister
Mental Misstep
 
Lim-Dul's Vault

Demonic Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Necropotence
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Yawgmoth's Will
4 Thoughtseize
Tendrils of Agony
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual

Side Board

4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Flusterstorm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Massacre
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Sadistic Sacrament
2 Nature's Claim
2 Steel Sabotage

I also have a question. It has been a long time since I have played Vintage, and I do not remember how Ingot Chewer and Shattering Spree work with Spheres, Thorns, and Golems. My original s/b was using red for Ingot Chewer, but I ran into someone who said that lock pieces still add to the cost of Evoking Ingot Chewer. How do these interactions work?

[XxtSundaybxX]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post, but your primary goal is to set up memory jar? Why "memory jar" over other bombs in the deck?

Ingot chewer and shattering spree are affected by spheres. Even when evoked you just add the sphere to the evoke cost. Thorn doesn't affect chewer obviously. With shattering spree you pay the spheres in the original casting cost, but you don't add the spheres for the replicate. It's been some time since this has come up but I'm pretty sure if you cast shattering spree into chalice, the original copy is countered but the replicated copy's still resolve.

I've personally found that in a combo deck such as long or tps, a mass bounce spell is much more affective rather than spot hate cards like chewer or shattering spree.

[jamestosetti]

Thanks for the Ingot Chewer and Shattering Spree answer. Steel Sabotage is pretty good, so I will stick with that and Nature's Claim. When playing against shops, a number of our bombs cost 3 or more, and can end up being dead cards in hand. Adding bounce spells main keeps the deck live against other archetypes as well in game one. With Lim-Dul's Vault I can go get a cantrip, a bounce spell, and a tinker (among other things). After playing Ant in Legacy until I had become proficient with it, and studying the meta game in Vintage, my research was pointing to this deck as a viable strategy. Pitchlong is definitely viable, but I tend to lean towards the Force of Wills. I am also not as fond of the Timetwister effects in long. I was originally playing this deck without one, but it is a must, and it is very good.

[XxtSundaybxX]

I can definitely get behind adding more bounce spells to the main deck to combat shops and pesky creatures whose abilities get in the way of winning.

Im still a little confused as to why you want to build the deck around resolving memory jar as your primary path to victory. Don't get me wrong, I like memory jar, but its one of the last bombs I would try and win with if i had a choice(tutoring for a bomb)

I understand your concern for giving your opponent 7 new cards with a draw 7. However if your list is built right, I think you would find you win far more games by casting a draw 7 then your opponent does because you gave him 7 new cards. Lists packing more disruption, whether it be counters or bounce spells, tend to fizzle draw 7s more frequently. The key is finding a balance. Sometimes you will just fizzle a draw 7, its in the nature of playing a storm deck.

[jamestosetti]

I think causing my opponent's bottleneck resource to be their mana with Lim-Dul's Vault is where I like to be. It isn't uncommon that your opponent uses most of there hand playing what they have, and then trying to hold you back. Improving the quality of the Memory Jar activation, or just using the vault itself can give you a huge advantage. I'm not saying this is better than Pitchlong (another deck I like to play), it is just something that I think can be very good, and also causes me to think much more about my lines of play. Obviously Memory Jar, or setting it up is not all that I am trying to do. You still have other lines of play that will prove to be more beneficial at times. The only difference being the previously mentioned plays.

I thought more about why I do not include some other bombs that I might normally play. Gifts Ungiven, Grim Tutor, Intuition, Fact or Fiction, and many others, are cards that I am not going to play for a particular reason. Not only are they harder to resolve against shops, but they commonly require a Dark Ritual to resolve. When that doesn't happen as a result of Mental Misstep, we are left holding our bombs in hand. The resulting draw go is not always favorable. I am going to continue to test the list I posted. It has not been disappointing me at all. I just need to become familiar with the common plays and decks again, and adapt to this new strategy.

This is a response to the above two paragraphs about two days later. The second Chain of Vapor and second Hurkyl's Recall definitely need to be Time Walk and Imperial Seal. Time Walk allows the deck to make some huge plays. Imperial seal can set up a number of potential plays, so it is hard to exclude. The more I play the deck, the more I consider cutting Force of Will because of the potential plays I could be making.

[[SLAYER]chaos]

I'm thinking about buying into vintage on mtgo.  TPS is a deck that I've always been interested in and I do have experience playing storm in Legacy. There are two questions I have:  First, is this deck still viable in the metagame?  Second, how does treasure cruise fit into a list now?  I was thinking about trying out something close to Reid Duke's list from eternal weekend last year with one or two treasure cruise.  Just thinking about it seems like a great way to refuel mid game after they've used their counters on the rest of our must answer bombs.  It's also against a cage when we're not able to yawg will.

[Hrishi]

Storm has been quite badly positioned for quite a while. I do not know about what the online metagame looks like, but that is how it is on paper. However, the deck is powerful and it's likely that Treasure Cruise will help. If you look at the mothership, you will see an article by LSV talking about a Treasure Cruise based storm list from a week ago.

[WhiteLotus]

Storm has been quite badly positioned for quite a while. I do not know about what the online metagame looks like, but that is how it is on paper. However, the deck is powerful and it's likely that Treasure Cruise will help. If you look at the mothership, you will see an article by LSV talking about a Treasure Cruise based storm list from a week ago.

I think TPS would be nice in today's metagame with a decent amount of control (10 slots) and 3-4 night's whispers + 1-2 Dig through time.
 something along these lines:

4 Dark Ritual
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Tinker
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mind's Desire
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
4 Duress
4 Force of Will
2 Flusterstorm
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Brainstorm
1 Chain of Vapor
3 Night's Whisper
1 Timetwister
2 Dig Through Time
1 Ponder

SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Island
SB: 2 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Ravenous Trap
SB: 3 Steel Sabotage
SB: 2 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Rebuild
SB: 2 The Abyss

[jamestosetti]

I stopped playing before school started again, but I have been looking at vintage decks, and how they are progressing. I don't these new delve cards are what TPS is looking for. I would still play a list similar to the last one I posted. I also don't think TPS is badly positioned. I think its a matter of fewer TPS players relevant to the rest of the field, and the margin for error that comes with the deck, especially with players new to the deck. I am going to continue looking at decks until Winter Break, and then I am going to try to come up with at least two new ones. I like where the meta is headed for once.

[Killane]

I played Vintage regularly for only about two years, and TPS is all I played. My lifetime Vintage tournament record is approx 48-10-1, but keep in mind it's all small tournments - never made it down to the states and the one bigger (50 players) I went to here in Ontario I tried an Oath/TPS brew and went 1-5.

Everything changed for TPS with the printing of Lodestone Golem. TPS used to have a fine shops matchup becuase all you had to do was wait for your moment, Hurkyl's/Rebuild, and win. When shops got a 4 turn clock (and then Metamoph to make it a 2 turn clock), that strategy went out the window. You are a DOG to shops- the matchup is litterally something like 20/80 or worse.

Then, Mental Misstep, Mindbreak Trap, and Flusterstrom turned your U-control matchup from excellent (I was something like 24-1 lifetime vs U control) to decent (somthing like 55/45 I'd guess). Duress--->bomb or mana--->Mind's Desire isn't nearly as backbreaking as it used to be, since Duress became Infinitely harder to resolve in a world of Missteps.

TPS is a turn 2.5 deck. Dredge is now faster and more consistent, so that turned a virtual bye into a good, but not blowout matchup. There are a million good hatebears out there now as well.
That said, your build is missing a few key components. I'd take out the Abyss from the board for Toxic Deluge - it's a much better card against the hatebears of today, and is passable and more easilly cast vs shops if you bring one in. I think Mental Misstep is a much better card than Flusterstorm, so I'd make that switch in full, and I'd drop one of the hurkyl's from the board for another piece of Dredge hate. Finally, Night's Whisper is NOT good. I'd drop one for Imperial Seal, one for Memory Jar, which is the Tits in TPS and is very helpful in the shops matchup (you can hurkyl's them in a Jar turn and have them discard it all), and the last one for a Preordain.

[WhiteLotus]

I played Vintage regularly for only about two years, and TPS is all I played. My lifetime Vintage tournament record is approx 48-10-1, but keep in mind it's all small tournments - never made it down to the states and the one bigger (50 players) I went to here in Ontario I tried an Oath/TPS brew and went 1-5.

Everything changed for TPS with the printing of Lodestone Golem. TPS used to have a fine shops matchup becuase all you had to do was wait for your moment, Hurkyl's/Rebuild, and win. When shops got a 4 turn clock (and then Metamoph to make it a 2 turn clock), that strategy went out the window. You are a DOG to shops- the matchup is litterally something like 20/80 or worse.

Then, Mental Misstep, Mindbreak Trap, and Flusterstrom turned your U-control matchup from excellent (I was something like 24-1 lifetime vs U control) to decent (somthing like 55/45 I'd guess). Duress--->bomb or mana--->Mind's Desire isn't nearly as backbreaking as it used to be, since Duress became Infinitely harder to resolve in a world of Missteps.

TPS is a turn 2.5 deck. Dredge is now faster and more consistent, so that turned a virtual bye into a good, but not blowout matchup. There are a million good hatebears out there now as well.
That said, your build is missing a few key components. I'd take out the Abyss from the board for Toxic Deluge - it's a much better card against the hatebears of today, and is passable and more easilly cast vs shops if you bring one in. I think Mental Misstep is a much better card than Flusterstorm, so I'd make that switch in full, and I'd drop one of the hurkyl's from the board for another piece of Dredge hate. Finally, Night's Whisper is NOT good. I'd drop one for Imperial Seal, one for Memory Jar, which is the Tits in TPS and is very helpful in the shops matchup (you can hurkyl's them in a Jar turn and have them discard it all), and the last one for a Preordain.

I agree with 99% of your post, although I think you are a bit overdoing it saying shops are a 20/80 matchup? Maybe game ones on the draw have this win rate, but usually postboard in my experience (I don't have a ton of experience of the matchup with TPS but I've tested it extensively with Long variants) you should have a similar matchup drains have against shops,
The storm deck has a more reliable and consistent plan for winning the game (getting it's mana established and trying to stay above water in the early game until it has/is able to create an opening to Hurkyl eot, untap and win) while the drain deck has better mana efficiency and more ways to interact.

I Haven't really played Tps but rather Long Variants which are a different animal and this list hasn't been tested, I just put it together to see if TPS could benefit from Dig through time. The idea was to play night's whisper as a way to sculpt your hand, fuel your grave with expendable cards to pitch to dig and also to play the card advantage game against blue decks.
Although the card choices are questionable, in the end i think it's just that the deck is outdated and it's nearly impossible to build a strong TPS build in the current metagame it has been benefited by almost no printings while all other archetypes have gotten a lot better and a lot better at fighting storm.
The deck has problems against shops (especially without a red splash) and hatebear for obvious reasons. It doesn't have a very good tempo/aggro control matchup either since it lacks explosiveness it doesn't take all that much disruption for those decks to be able to race. Drain decks are still a somewhat favorable matchup but that has been largely mitigated due to the printing of Mental Misstep (also Fluster and Mindbreak trap) like you mentioned. Finally, dredge is usually about the same speed or faster depending on the builds, so that means TPS can't eschew packing grave hate in the sideboard (limiting it's options to address the most problematic matchups). Of course the deck has a lot of possibilities of simply winning in any matchup if the pilot knows his deck but it doesn't have a single matchup where you can relax and the deck will just autowin, every battle is an uphill battle.

Not to mention the fact that TPS has kinda been replaced by Gush storm which is only marginally slower than TPS and has a much better matchup against most blue decks.

In my opinion Rituals have to play into their own strength which I consider to be speed, flexibility and inherent raw power to sort of attack the metagame in a similar way dredge does. So I'd say Long is probably better positioned in the meta (way better aggro/tempo and dredge matchup, similar drain matchup and the access to red sideboard answers + better consistency means shops are better as well even thought it can't support FOW)

[Killane]

Great post nothing really to add. I have little experience with Long as I've never played paper Vintage with unrestricted Gush.

[jamestosetti]

I think Shops make the deck almost unplayable, and have for quite a while. I play Vintage off and on, so I am not an expert by any means. I do not think any blue control deck is better than TPS though whatever the draw engine may be. I don't even think Mental Misstep is enough to hate TPS out. I was testing TPS a few months ago to see how it would do in that meta, but I was not using the original bombs like Gifts or Intuition. I was still destroying Blue decks consistently. Shops however, was much more difficult for the reasons stated above.

TPS may or may not become better with various draw spells, but I think that some piece of Shops would have to be restricted. I think Rich Shay suggested restricting Chalice of the Void, or unrestricting Brainstorm on the Vintage Super League videos. I think both would be fine ideas. I would like to see Chalice first though because I think it would open up new opportunities for the format. I would hate to just say that would be a good solution though as I would prefer some study of the possible ramifications of those changes on the format as a whole. I can say that I am opposed to an all artifact deck though. I have the opinion that artifacts should supplement colors, not be its own color. I am particularly against adding one to the cost of spells. More spells equals more fun in my opinion. That's just one person though, I'm not looking to ruin other peoples enjoyment of the game.

[Shax]

On that note unrestrict Brainstorm and Ponder. Prolly another unrestriction past that like a Merchant Scroll opens up Trinisphere debate. If something like Windfall was unrestricted it would cause the least impact since it still plays into Shop/Drains. Scroll/BS/Ponder are great engine cards.

[WhiteLotus]

I Shops make the deck almost unplayable, and have for quite a while. I play Vintage off and on, so I am not an expert by any means. I do not think any blue control deck is better than TPS though whatever the draw engine may be. I don't even think Mental Misstep is enough to hate TPS out. I was testing TPS a few months ago to see how it would do in that meta, but I was not using the original bombs like Gifts or Intuition. I was still destroying Blue decks consistently. Shops however, was much more difficult for the reasons stated above.

TPS may or may not become better with various draw spells, but I think that some piece of Shops would have to be restricted. I think Rich Shay suggested restricting Chalice of the Void, or unrestricting Brainstorm on the Vintage Super League videos. I think both would be fine ideas. I would like to see Chalice first though because I think it would open up new opportunities for the format. I would hate to just say that would be a good solution though as I would prefer some study of the possible ramifications of those changes on the format as a whole. I can say that I am opposed to an all artifact deck though. I have the opinion that artifacts should supplement colors, not be its own color. I am particularly against adding one to the cost of spells. More spells equals more fun in my opinion. That's just one person though, I'm not looking to ruin other peoples enjoyment of the game.

I really don't understand why so many storm pilots are always complaining about the shop matchup? your sideboard needs 0 room for dredge and maybe one slot anti aggro. That means you virtually have the best sideboard in the format.

And frankly if you get to resolve hurkyl's recall you've probably won, the same way you probably've won if you resolved oath except shop doesnt have any gradfigger cage kinda trump for hurkyl. Shops are brutal to the deck's game plan of course but all it takes is resolving a 2cmc spell with follow up in a deck with about 30 mana sources.

Here is my list with my usual sideboard, the shop matchup is something like 50/50 overall pre and post side.

1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
4 Burning Wish
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Thoughtseize
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
4 Dark Ritual
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Memory Jar
1 Tinker
1 Windfall
1 Timetwister
4 Duress
1 Ponder
2 Preordain
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Opal
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Lotus Petal
1 Island
1 Mana Confluence
2 Dig Through Time
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Yawgmoth's Will
SB: 1 Mind's Desire
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 2 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Rebuild
SB: 2 Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 Island
SB: 1 Mountain
SB: 1 Scalding Tarn
SB: 2 Defense Grid

[jamestosetti]

That is an interesting build for the meta. I am going to test this out when I have some free time.

[Killane]

I Shops make the deck almost unplayable, and have for quite a while. I play Vintage off and on, so I am not an expert by any means. I do not think any blue control deck is better than TPS though whatever the draw engine may be. I don't even think Mental Misstep is enough to hate TPS out. I was testing TPS a few months ago to see how it would do in that meta, but I was not using the original bombs like Gifts or Intuition. I was still destroying Blue decks consistently. Shops however, was much more difficult for the reasons stated above.

TPS may or may not become better with various draw spells, but I think that some piece of Shops would have to be restricted. I think Rich Shay suggested restricting Chalice of the Void, or unrestricting Brainstorm on the Vintage Super League videos. I think both would be fine ideas. I would like to see Chalice first though because I think it would open up new opportunities for the format. I would hate to just say that would be a good solution though as I would prefer some study of the possible ramifications of those changes on the format as a whole. I can say that I am opposed to an all artifact deck though. I have the opinion that artifacts should supplement colors, not be its own color. I am particularly against adding one to the cost of spells. More spells equals more fun in my opinion. That's just one person though, I'm not looking to ruin other peoples enjoyment of the game.

I really don't understand why so many storm pilots are always complaining about the shop matchup? your sideboard needs 0 room for dredge and maybe one slot anti aggro. That means you virtually have the best sideboard in the format.

And frankly if you get to resolve hurkyl's recall you've probably won, the same way you probably've won if you resolved oath except shop doesnt have any gradfigger cage kinda trump for hurkyl. Shops are brutal to the deck's game plan of course but all it takes is resolving a 2cmc spell with follow up in a deck with about 30 mana sources.

Here is my list with my usual sideboard, the shop matchup is something like 50/50 overall pre and post side.

1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
4 Burning Wish
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Thoughtseize
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
4 Dark Ritual
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Memory Jar
1 Tinker
1 Windfall
1 Timetwister
4 Duress
1 Ponder
2 Preordain
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Opal
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Lotus Petal
1 Island
1 Mana Confluence
2 Dig Through Time
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Yawgmoth's Will
SB: 1 Mind's Desire
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 2 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Rebuild
SB: 2 Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 Island
SB: 1 Mountain
SB: 1 Scalding Tarn
SB: 2 Defense Grid

I do not think that you can run zero board vs Dredge. It's abeen a few years, but the deck seems even better now than it was then- faster and more consistent, andf I was never comfortable with less than 4. Drdge is FAST - it can turn 2 pretty often.

The issue is that Shops has stategic superiority in the matchup- yes there are trump tactics, but it's not as simple as hurkyls nd win- it hasn;t been since Lodestoen got printed.

[WhiteLotus]

That is an interesting build for the meta. I am going to test this out when I have some free time.

Thanks, I have been working on the deck for a bit and so far i've been really impressed with it. The maindeck is tuned to face decks with counterspells and the sideboard is basically burning wish targets and the rest is devoted to adressing the shops matchup with 2 defense grids to push the deck over the top vs Blue decks.

I Shops make the deck almost unplayable, and have for quite a while. I play Vintage off and on, so I am not an expert by any means. I do not think any blue control deck is better than TPS though whatever the draw engine may be. I don't even think Mental Misstep is enough to hate TPS out. I was testing TPS a few months ago to see how it would do in that meta, but I was not using the original bombs like Gifts or Intuition. I was still destroying Blue decks consistently. Shops however, was much more difficult for the reasons stated above.

TPS may or may not become better with various draw spells, but I think that some piece of Shops would have to be restricted. I think Rich Shay suggested restricting Chalice of the Void, or unrestricting Brainstorm on the Vintage Super League videos. I think both would be fine ideas. I would like to see Chalice first though because I think it would open up new opportunities for the format. I would hate to just say that would be a good solution though as I would prefer some study of the possible ramifications of those changes on the format as a whole. I can say that I am opposed to an all artifact deck though. I have the opinion that artifacts should supplement colors, not be its own color. I am particularly against adding one to the cost of spells. More spells equals more fun in my opinion. That's just one person though, I'm not looking to ruin other peoples enjoyment of the game.

I really don't understand why so many storm pilots are always complaining about the shop matchup? your sideboard needs 0 room for dredge and maybe one slot anti aggro. That means you virtually have the best sideboard in the format.

And frankly if you get to resolve hurkyl's recall you've probably won, the same way you probably've won if you resolved oath except shop doesnt have any gradfigger cage kinda trump for hurkyl. Shops are brutal to the deck's game plan of course but all it takes is resolving a 2cmc spell with follow up in a deck with about 30 mana sources.

Here is my list with my usual sideboard, the shop matchup is something like 50/50 overall pre and post side.

1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
4 Burning Wish
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Thoughtseize
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
4 Dark Ritual
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Memory Jar
1 Tinker
1 Windfall
1 Timetwister
4 Duress
1 Ponder
2 Preordain
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Opal
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Lotus Petal
1 Island
1 Mana Confluence
2 Dig Through Time
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Yawgmoth's Will
SB: 1 Mind's Desire
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 2 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Rebuild
SB: 2 Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 Island
SB: 1 Mountain
SB: 1 Scalding Tarn
SB: 2 Defense Grid

I do not think that you can run zero board vs Dredge. It's abeen a few years, but the deck seems even better now than it was then- faster and more consistent, andf I was never comfortable with less than 4. Drdge is FAST - it can turn 2 pretty often.

The issue is that Shops has stategic superiority in the matchup- yes there are trump tactics, but it's not as simple as hurkyls nd win- it hasn;t been since Lodestoen got printed.

Well this particular list can get away with 0 dredge hate because it's half a turn faster than the most consistent dredge decks. Dread return dredge which is the fastest dredge variant is a consistent turn 2.5 deck, it basically always wins on turn 2 when it gets bazaar into 2 dredgers with a turn 2 landdrop to bring back fatesticher and trigger ghasts which is about 50% of the time. The burning Long deck wins turn 1 15-20% of the time and turn 2 60% of the time in a goldfish. Not to mention that usually people play the less combo version of dredge which is more resilient to hate (Cage Breaker) and that deck is a turn 3 clock. So you can skip on the hate especially since dredge isn't a big part of the metagame usually. The idea is that you will still win more than 50% of games vs dredge without hate, so you might as well make sure that you strengthen more relevant/difficult matchups.

Shops has strategic superiority because usually once it got a turn and has implemented its game plan, it forces the storm deck to shift it's gameplan towards interaction, something it wasnt designed for.

So yeah game one on the draw you get steam rolled most of the time I agree, but if you have a strong sideboard plan against them composed of 3 elements (Artifact Removal, Basic lands, Board "wipes")  you can turn the tide post board.

My strategy in the matchup is pretty simple, getting a stable mana base established through basic lands to dig out of spheres and resolve hurkyl. I am sure you are entirely familiar with this strategy it's the same one storm decks have used since the beginning to face Shops. Since then shops have gotten a lot better: Way faster clock, better mana stability and a critical mass of locks, so the decks are locking you out faster and more reliably while also translating a favorable game state into the victory faster. At this point you can no longer patiently wait and hurkyl's them you have to interact in order to not fall too far behind or simply die before you get there.

So now here is the new part of the plan that you didnt need before lodestone, you add artifact removal to the mix in order to help you to get to the point where you can hurkyl them. It can do this by blowing up their threat (lodestone) thus giving you extra turns to set up, destroying a chalice blocking your tutors/ moxen, ...  and so forth

[jamestosetti]

As much as I like storm decks, it would be hard for me to get behind one right now unless it was Doomsday (never played the deck). I think Storm would have to be super broken and fast to compete today, or something would have to be restricted. I do agree with the comment about the lack of dredge hate. Although I don't see it as much anymore, 7 cards still need to be devoted to it.

[Yenite]

I Shops make the deck almost unplayable, and have for quite a while. I play Vintage off and on, so I am not an expert by any means. I do not think any blue control deck is better than TPS though whatever the draw engine may be. I don't even think Mental Misstep is enough to hate TPS out. I was testing TPS a few months ago to see how it would do in that meta, but I was not using the original bombs like Gifts or Intuition. I was still destroying Blue decks consistently. Shops however, was much more difficult for the reasons stated above.

TPS may or may not become better with various draw spells, but I think that some piece of Shops would have to be restricted. I think Rich Shay suggested restricting Chalice of the Void, or unrestricting Brainstorm on the Vintage Super League videos. I think both would be fine ideas. I would like to see Chalice first though because I think it would open up new opportunities for the format. I would hate to just say that would be a good solution though as I would prefer some study of the possible ramifications of those changes on the format as a whole. I can say that I am opposed to an all artifact deck though. I have the opinion that artifacts should supplement colors, not be its own color. I am particularly against adding one to the cost of spells. More spells equals more fun in my opinion. That's just one person though, I'm not looking to ruin other peoples enjoyment of the game.

I really don't understand why so many storm pilots are always complaining about the shop matchup? your sideboard needs 0 room for dredge and maybe one slot anti aggro. That means you virtually have the best sideboard in the format.

And frankly if you get to resolve hurkyl's recall you've probably won, the same way you probably've won if you resolved oath except shop doesnt have any gradfigger cage kinda trump for hurkyl. Shops are brutal to the deck's game plan of course but all it takes is resolving a 2cmc spell with follow up in a deck with about 30 mana sources.

Here is my list with my usual sideboard, the shop matchup is something like 50/50 overall pre and post side.

1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
4 Burning Wish
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Thoughtseize
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
4 Dark Ritual
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Memory Jar
1 Tinker
1 Windfall
1 Timetwister
4 Duress
1 Ponder
2 Preordain
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Opal
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Lotus Petal
1 Island
1 Mana Confluence
2 Dig Through Time
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Yawgmoth's Will
SB: 1 Mind's Desire
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 2 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Rebuild
SB: 2 Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 Island
SB: 1 Mountain
SB: 1 Scalding Tarn
SB: 2 Defense Grid

I am currently testing your decklist and find it very interesting. However I still have a few things to figure out :

-What is the demonic consultation for ? A fifth wish ? A 7th discard spell ? Casting it to find necro actually feels like...a lot of scary stuff

-What do you do when chalice @ 2 happens ? Stops you from hurkyl's and trumps the burning wish for shattering spree, maybe a rebuild over the 2 mana spell ? Feels like the deck can support it with 29 mana sources

-Last thing is about the amount of discard, 4 duress and 2 thoughtseizes seems a bit much especially when going off. Is this necessary for the blue match ups ?

By the way I totally agree with the reasoning behind the sideboard, you're definitely killing the dredge player faster than he does a lot of the time.

[WhiteLotus]

I am currently testing your decklist and find it very interesting. However I still have a few things to figure out :

-What is the demonic consultation for ? A fifth wish ? A 7th discard spell ? Casting it to find necro actually feels like...a lot of scary stuff

-What do you do when chalice @ 2 happens ? Stops you from hurkyl's and trumps the burning wish for shattering spree, maybe a rebuild over the 2 mana spell ? Feels like the deck can support it with 29 mana sources

-Last thing is about the amount of discard, 4 duress and 2 thoughtseizes seems a bit much especially when going off. Is this necessary for the blue match ups ?

By the way I totally agree with the reasoning behind the sideboard, you're definitely killing the dredge player faster than he does a lot of the time.

Consult is For Wish, ritual, duress, fetch or a singleton like lotus or tendrils in a life or death situation, it also gets defense grid or hurkyls post board. But most of the time you are using it to get Wish or Duress.

If the shop player has chalice against me he probably set it at 0 and 1, 2 would be less than ideal since a lot of his lock pieces cost 2 mana. I'm Assuming you are speaking preboard since postboard I can deal with chalice with chewer, spree, or rebuild. So Preboard if the shop player casts chalice at 2 because he already cast at least another one at 1, well it's basically GG  but then again chalice at 1 + chalice at 2 seems like a situation most decks couldn't get out of preboard anyway. If for some reason the shop player plays chalice at 2 with no chalice at 1, I can always Chain of Vapor It.
Them doing so is a pretty big mistake since chalice at 2 precludes you from ever casting chalice at 1 and my deck has something like 22 1cmc spells and 6 2cmc spells while a major portion of the workshop curve is 2 cmc and they only have sol ring which costs one


The amount of discard is to make sure you can reliably duress your opponent in any hand, It is of course to make the deck better against mental Misstep and blue decks in general, thoughtseize can also hit stuff like Thalia or Notion thief which can be relevant.

What It does is that it helps you maintain pressure on your opponents counters or relevant cards while going off so they can't follow the pace of the deck on any level (it helps you build the critical mass it takes to overwhelm counterwalls). You are always in control of their hand and since you are more explosive and 100% proactive you are completely dictating the way the game goes.
Of course this strategy has limits and they always play more counters than you play duress effects, but I like what it does for the deck.
It's also nice that it let's this deck have more control in General, because sometimes you can't go off and the hand disruption can really hurt your opponent.

Also the Information Gained is invaluable, you can't walk unknowing when stuff like Flusterstorm and Mindbreak trap or even Notion Thief could be lurking.

The Way I constructed the deck is I wanted the deck to have a good Blue Matchup and have Defense grid to really push the odds in my favor postboard and the rest of the sideboard was to be devoted to burning wish targets and addressing the shop matchup. So the deck positions itself as preying on blue decks, going head to head with dredge and using a strong sideboard strategy to make shops as close to an even matchup as you can get without hurting your other matchups.

By the way I made a few modifications to the decklist, I cut Empty the Warrens which was a card I have Not Wished for once since I started playing the deck and never would it have been a better line of play for me to do so. I replaced it with a 3rd defense grid because it's really good against Delver and blue decks in general. I also Cut the 2nd dig through time from the maindeck and I'm considering various cards in that slot either Gitaxian probe, Gifts, a second opal or mystical tutor.

[Hrishi]

We were talking about this at length last night, but I guess it might be interesting to open the discussion up here as well. Is FoW necessary in a TPS deck or not? If your metagame has a heavy shop presence are you obliged to run it, even if you weaken the threat density of your deck? Interested to see what people think!

[[SLAYER]chaos]

This is what I've been testing on modo with a lot of success.  The most problematic cards for me to deal with have been misstep, which should be no surprise, and notion thief.  There are definitely a couple of spots in here that are up for debate.  I'm unsure about the demonic consultation the most, it feels like every time I cast it it's just a crap shoot to whether or not I can win after it exiles a chunk of my deck. This list draws heavy inspiration from the list WhiteLotus posted earlier which I think is a great starting point for burning wish TPS.

The extra sideboard slots for Shops really does swing the matchup in our favor I think.  In every match I've played online that doesn't involve a turn 1 lodestone golem I've been able to draw cards and craft my hand for a game winning EoT hurkyls.  I do think you give up some percentages to the blue decks though.  I would like a draw 7 in the sideboard and possibly a void snare or a thoughtseize.  A lot of game 2s I side out windfall just so I have access to it to wish for.

Treasure Cruise has been insane every time I play it.  I really want to find room for a second one, I'm probably going to start testing it over the Demonic Consultation some time soon.

Lands: 12
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Tolarian Academy

Fast Mana: 16
4 Dark Ritual
1 Cabal Ritual
5 Moxen
1 Lotus Petal
1 Lions eye Diamond
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault

Tutors: 9
4 Burning Wish
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Tinker

Draw: 15
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Treasure Cruise
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Timetwister
1 Windfall
1 Memory Jar
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain

Protection: 7
4 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl's Recall

Win: 1
1 Tendrils of Agnoy

Sideboard: 15
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Mind's Desire
1 Shattering Spree
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
2 Ingot Chewer
1 Bloodstained Mire (probably should be Scalding Tarn)
1 Mountain
1 Island
3 Defense Grid

[msg67183]

This is what I've been testing on modo with a lot of success.  The most problematic cards for me to deal with have been misstep, which should be no surprise, and notion thief.  There are definitely a couple of spots in here that are up for debate.  I'm unsure about the demonic consultation the most, it feels like every time I cast it it's just a crap shoot to whether or not I can win after it exiles a chunk of my deck. This list draws heavy inspiration from the list WhiteLotus posted earlier which I think is a great starting point for burning wish TPS.

The extra sideboard slots for Shops really does swing the matchup in our favor I think.  In every match I've played online that doesn't involve a turn 1 lodestone golem I've been able to draw cards and craft my hand for a game winning EoT hurkyls.  I do think you give up some percentages to the blue decks though.  I would like a draw 7 in the sideboard and possibly a void snare or a thoughtseize.  A lot of game 2s I side out windfall just so I have access to it to wish for.

Treasure Cruise has been insane every time I play it.  I really want to find room for a second one, I'm probably going to start testing it over the Demonic Consultation some time soon.

Lands: 12
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Tolarian Academy

Fast Mana: 16
4 Dark Ritual
1 Cabal Ritual
5 Moxen
1 Lotus Petal
1 Lions eye Diamond
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault

Tutors: 9
4 Burning Wish
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Tinker

Draw: 15
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Treasure Cruise
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Timetwister
1 Windfall
1 Memory Jar
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain

Protection: 7
4 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl's Recall

Win: 1
1 Tendrils of Agnoy

Sideboard: 15
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Mind's Desire
1 Shattering Spree
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
2 Ingot Chewer
1 Bloodstained Mire (probably should be Scalding Tarn)
1 Mountain
1 Island
3 Defense Grid

I'm pretty sure the Bargain in the board is supposed to be Yawgmoth's Will, but other than that the deck looks sweet!

[Hrishi]

Does Cruise not affect Will much?

[WhiteLotus]

your list looks very close to mine and even closer to what I'm working on now.

I think you should add Library of alexandria, wins games where you draw it more reliably than necropotence does Imo.

4 probes are way too much especially when you have the 6 duress effects, 10 slot for hand info isn't necessary, and they suck vs Workshops and dredge. You should swap 2 probes for 2 preordain, as it improves opening hands consistency a lot better than probe does.
 I think you should also definitely add Mox opal to the deck (personally, I upped count to 2 opals) because it needs to be able to access it's 3 colors in first two turns consistently.
Especially since you only have 28 mana sources. A big part of the deck's inconsistency is having enough mana to power out it's brokeness

8 tutors are too much imo, since they are tempo negative and sometimes card negative, I think you should cut at least the consult or Mystical since they are the narrowest. although there is some merit in combining probe and topdeck tutors , I don't think it will really help you to go off as another card would, you already have more than enough tutors/ manipulation that your deck is always able to sculpt it's hand. I just don't think its a good idea to do that at the cost of a card or a good chunk of your library.

I agree with treasure cruise, I initially tried dig, but turns out the UU is really too much of a difference for this deck, even though dig is stronger effect, Cruise is less mana intensive and perfect for reloading against blue decks when you have spent all your gas on their counters. I dont think you should add a second one (although i need to test more to be sure), because Dig is usually better any time you are not delving the full amount, and treasure cruise can't be used as a bait spell in their eot to clear a path of victory. I Also don't think it's necessarily very good against shops in this deck, if you can cast it you were probably already in a position where you could setup hurkyls ftw. If a second copy were to be added to the deck it would most likely be the sideboard in any case.

[msg67183]

Sort of off topic, but regarding Treasure Cruise in Burning Oath/ Storm style lists, I was considering on putting a Cruise in the board of Burning Oath, probably replacing Diminishing Returns. I also agree that Dig is a stronger effect, but the difference between one and two blue mana is huge in a Dark Ritual deck.

Just my 2 cents

[jamestosetti]

I've working with Vault combo for a while now, and I starting thinking about decks I like to play, but might not be positioned very well right now. I was thinking that no one is doing anything super fast, so what would I need four Force of Will? I just need Mental Misstep to Disrupt my opponent enough to make something happen. So, then I thought why not take out the Fows and put in the Vault combo? I one plan is interrupted, then I can just shift my attention to the other plans. This deck has Tendrils, Time Vault Combo, Tinker-Jar/Monster, and the Yawgmoth's Will to bring back any artifacts I need. I also added a Treasure Cruise and a Dig Through Time. I know I said on an earlier date that these cards probably don't belong here, but maybe they do. The games I have played so far are going really well, and correspond to the strategies that I am most familiar with. I think these cards, and various storm builds are worth trying out. Here is my list so far:


1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Underground Sea



1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Opal
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Voltaic Key
1 Time Vault
1 Memory Jar


1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mind's Desire
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
2 Mental Misstep
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
2 Flusterstorm
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Treasure Cruise
1 Preordain
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Dig Through Time

3 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
3 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Necropotence

1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Blightsteel Colossus
SB: 2 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Tropical Island
SB: 2 Trygon Predator
SB: 3 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge

[[SLAYER]chaos]

Does Cruise not affect Will much?

It doesn't hurt it too much, normally if you can leave one ritual/recall/lotus in there your will's are still really broken.  You're mostly eating probes, duress, and fetchlands.

your list looks very close to mine and even closer to what I'm working on now.

I think you should add Library of alexandria, wins games where you draw it more reliably than necropotence does Imo.

4 probes are way too much especially when you have the 6 duress effects, 10 slot for hand info isn't necessary, and they suck vs Workshops and dredge. You should swap 2 probes for 2 preordain, as it improves opening hands consistency a lot better than probe does.
 I think you should also definitely add Mox opal to the deck (personally, I upped count to 2 opals) because it needs to be able to access it's 3 colors in first two turns consistently.
Especially since you only have 28 mana sources. A big part of the deck's inconsistency is having enough mana to power out it's brokeness

8 tutors are too much imo, since they are tempo negative and sometimes card negative, I think you should cut at least the consult or Mystical since they are the narrowest. although there is some merit in combining probe and topdeck tutors , I don't think it will really help you to go off as another card would, you already have more than enough tutors/ manipulation that your deck is always able to sculpt it's hand. I just don't think its a good idea to do that at the cost of a card or a good chunk of your library.

I agree with treasure cruise, I initially tried dig, but turns out the UU is really too much of a difference for this deck, even though dig is stronger effect, Cruise is less mana intensive and perfect for reloading against blue decks when you have spent all your gas on their counters. I dont think you should add a second one (although i need to test more to be sure), because Dig is usually better any time you are not delving the full amount, and treasure cruise can't be used as a bait spell in their eot to clear a path of victory. I Also don't think it's necessarily very good against shops in this deck, if you can cast it you were probably already in a position where you could setup hurkyls ftw. If a second copy were to be added to the deck it would most likely be the sideboard in any case.

-Library sounds like a great idea to fight against control decks that just draw go with 3+ counters in hand.

-I think this is the biggest spots are lists are going to differ.  I love having all 4 probes, having information on exactly what to play around at all points is so important.  And I'm not sure if this is because I'm playing against inexperienced players but it's so nice when a turn 1 probe gets misstepped and you follow it right up with a duress.  In the shops matchup I'll normally board out two of them, but even having them on the play against them is nice to see which lock piece you have to play around.

-Mox Opal is something I've been thinking about as I play but it feels like most of my games I wouldn't be able to turn on metalcraft until I'm already going off.  Now that might be different if I had 1-2 more artifacts in the deck.

-Mystical has been pretty good for me so far, not amazing, just good.  Consultation is probably getting cut though, it serves it's purpose as an emergency lotus or burning wish.  But whenever I see it in my opening hand it feels like a mulligan because you can't reasonably cast it and risk removing half your deck.

-Cruise has been amazing as a one of so far.  I don't know if you can reliably cast it twice in a game without wheel happening.  I do want access to a second one in games you know cage is coming in post board.

Overall though I'm really liking this deck so far.  I don't feel like there's any matchups that I'm completely out of.  Even the preboard shops games aren't blowouts most of the time.  Blue decks have been about 50/50.  I rarely have trouble in the combo mirror.  I haven't felt any pain not having dredge hate.