TPS players

[Marske]

Tinker
Oath
Beat for 11
Oath up 6-8
Beat for 5 (they block so they #1 don't die and #2 can oath again)
Oath up 6-8
Beat for 5 you win

I think you are missing the fact that Akroma + Hellkite oath just does this:

You: Tinker
He: Oath
He: beats for 6 (Akroma) or for even more (Hellkite) putting you very low on life if they have some orchards or red you could be REALLY in the redzone.
You:Beat for 11
He:Oath
He:Beats you with Hellkite and Akroma, you're dead.

I would rather go tendrils and make sure I win, because you never now what your opponent will oath up... Archangel, Hellkite, Akroma all stop you're DSC plan in a hurry. Not to mention what will happen if they oath up a Tyrant. Going tendrils is far more easy and doesn't help them out if they are stuck without an orchard and is IMHO the correct play.

Was assuming turn 3 necro vs turn 2 tinker where both are equally fast barring necro fizzling one way or another. Also DSC beats the planeswalker's face in hardcore if they try to win via him quickly while necro can put you in the red zone to a pair of moxen.

DSC does beat Tezzeret in the nuts if they try to win with the planeswalker but why would they ? They will just focus their tutors on grabbing TV/Vault and just win. They don't really need bounce as long as you are focussing on beating face. Sure some guys will go for bounce. all I was saying was Necro is probably the safest way to win vs Tezzeret. I've tried beating Tezzeret with creatures and mostly they just shrug and cast the combo without even playing the planeswalker.

Post-board I would go for necro because of the extra bounce and the fact that it taps/sacs to wire/smokey is just gravy. Pre-board though I'd go for DSC and against a blind deck this is likely what we're talking about.

Going DSC against a "blind deck" aka you have no clue what your up against.... Why would you go Plan B because I don't know what I'm up against?! Still DSC is a big threat for a shop player and one the will need to deal with. But some Shop lists run Welder, some run Duplicant all things you don't want to see. Like I said TPS was build to function with a Trinisphere in play so you should have no trouble going combo pre-board. I've said this before both routes are equally viable and should be considered but just blindly going Tinker - DSC is a bad thing imo.

[Tempus]

One thing that's occured to me in reading this thread is that no one has revisited Intuition-Tendrils in a while. That deck would seem to have many of the much-needed elements for a combo deck right now:

1.Lots of Duress Effects
2.A Good fit for MD Confidant
3.A Consistent Draw Engine + Setup (Intuition by itself with Rituals or Even AK thrown in)

Also, GY hate is not very prevalent right now as people shift their sights to beating Time Vault so a Will dependent deck like IT could do very well.

I think that IF GY hate became more prevalent again one might want to run a more consistent non-will-dependent Tendrils deck like Ad-Nauseam Tendrils.

I'll have to start gathering up my notes on IT. It could be just what the doctor ordered for "Waterbury."

Edit: After gathering some notes I have a list for y'all. It's completely untested, but it does have the elements for a good IT list IMO

IT-Tech Revisited

Land (12):
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Swamp

Artifacts (9):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Memory Jar

Artifact Creatures (1):
1 Inkwell Leviathan

Creatures (3):
3 Dark Confidant

Sorceries (14):
3 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Tendrils Of Agony
2 Grim Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Ponder

Instants (20):
4 Force Of Will
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Intuition
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Brainstorm
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Rebuild

Enchantments (1):
1 Necropotence

SB
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Duress
3 Pithing Needle
4 Tormod’s Crypt
3 Seal Of Primordium

Now that I'm looking at it I might want to include Regrowth in there somewhere. Heck, we could even switch in over to Drain-Tendrils and cut the Rituals. Hmmmmm. . .

I like the IT approach, but I wouldn't play it like that. MD Confidant isn't necessary, but a non-will dependant strategy like Bargain or Desire. The list I'm testing now:

2 Island
2 Swamp
2 U. Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Tolarian Academy

5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault

4 Force of Will
2 Remand (love this guy)
4 Intuition
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

1 Ponder
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Grim Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Mind's Desire
4 Duress
1 Timetwister
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk

1 Necropotence

1 Darksteel Colossus

SB:

4 Dark Confidant
3 Yixlid Jailer
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
2 Thoughtseize
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Island

Dark Confidant in the MD just ramps the number of useful cards in a Fishdeck against you and doesn't add much. Versus Draindecks their awesome, but otherwise their mediocre.
Mind's Desire is as easy to setup as in every other tendrils build, so why not play it.
I choose DSC over Inkwell due to the shorter clock.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Tinker
Oath
Beat for 11
Oath up 6-8
Beat for 5 (they block so they #1 don't die and #2 can oath again)
Oath up 6-8
Beat for 5 you win

I think you are missing the fact that Akroma + Hellkite oath just does this:

You: Tinker
He: Oath
He: beats for 6 (Akroma) or for even more (Hellkite) putting you very low on life if they have some orchards or red you could be REALLY in the redzone.
You:Beat for 11
He:Oath
He:Beats you with Hellkite and Akroma, you're dead.

I would rather go tendrils and make sure I win, because you never now what your opponent will oath up... Archangel, Hellkite, Akroma all stop you're DSC plan in a hurry. Not to mention what will happen if they oath up a Tyrant. Going tendrils is far more easy and doesn't help them out if they are stuck without an orchard and is IMHO the correct play.

I think you should RTFC you need less creatures than your opponent to activate Oath so no he can't get Akroma+Hellkite unless he has Orchard also. So if they have Oath+Orchard you die with necro anyways at least you can Tinker for Jar if they cast Oath before you cast Tinker.

Was assuming turn 3 necro vs turn 2 tinker where both are equally fast barring necro fizzling one way or another. Also DSC beats the planeswalker's face in hardcore if they try to win via him quickly while necro can put you in the red zone to a pair of moxen.

DSC does beat Tezzeret in the nuts if they try to win with the planeswalker but why would they ? They will just focus their tutors on grabbing TV/Vault and just win. They don't really need bounce as long as you are focussing on beating face. Sure some guys will go for bounce. all I was saying was Necro is probably the safest way to win vs Tezzeret. I've tried beating Tezzeret with creatures and mostly they just shrug and cast the combo without even playing the planeswalker.

I don't understand how Necro helps the situation if they can go infinite. All Necro does against tezz is give them more turns to get drain+mana online when you go for your bomb. Obviously they won't cast tezz if DSC is down but cutting off win conditions and options is always better than not. Might want to actually read what I wrote about turn 2 tinker vs turn 3 necro I wasn't talking about a random turn 5 Tinker that they can "just shrug and cast the combo".

Post-board I would go for necro because of the extra bounce and the fact that it taps/sacs to wire/smokey is just gravy. Pre-board though I'd go for DSC and against a blind deck this is likely what we're talking about.

Going DSC against a "blind deck" aka you have no clue what your up against.... Why would you go Plan B because I don't know what I'm up against?! Still DSC is a big threat for a shop player and one the will need to deal with. But some Shop lists run Welder, some run Duplicant all things you don't want to see. Like I said TPS was build to function with a Trinisphere in play so you should have no trouble going combo pre-board. I've said this before both routes are equally viable and should be considered but just blindly going Tinker - DSC is a bad thing imo.

I was comparing most decks when considering whether necro or tinker is better blind. They have no draw engine and if they have Welder they'll likely cast it turn 1 so it should be pretty obvious that you're not going to Tinker for DSC.

[Diakonov]

I don't understand how Necro helps the situation if they can go infinite. All Necro does against tezz is give them more turns to get drain+mana online when you go for your bomb. Obviously they won't cast tezz if DSC is down but cutting off win conditions and options is always better than not. Might want to actually read what I wrote about turn 2 tinker vs turn 3 necro I wasn't talking about a random turn 5 Tinker that they can "just shrug and cast the combo".

Assuming that they are able to go for the combo right away, Tinker Colossus means you lose, whereas Necro means that you might draw into Force and be able to prevent them from assembling it.  If they can't go for the combo, then they will likely go for bounce and end the man plan; if you choose to play Necro, there's nothing to stop it once it hits.  You have already achieved a one-sided super-draw.  I think you're underestimating how much it swings the advantage once Necro hits, and losing the game post-Necro is very uncommon.

Post-board I would go for necro because of the extra bounce and the fact that it taps/sacs to wire/smokey is just gravy. Pre-board though I'd go for DSC and against a blind deck this is likely what we're talking about.

Going DSC against a "blind deck" aka you have no clue what your up against.... Why would you go Plan B because I don't know what I'm up against?! Still DSC is a big threat for a shop player and one the will need to deal with. But some Shop lists run Welder, some run Duplicant all things you don't want to see. Like I said TPS was build to function with a Trinisphere in play so you should have no trouble going combo pre-board. I've said this before both routes are equally viable and should be considered but just blindly going Tinker - DSC is a bad thing imo.

I was comparing most decks when considering whether necro or tinker is better blind. They have no draw engine and if they have Welder they'll likely cast it turn 1 so it should be pretty obvious that you're not going to Tinker for DSC.

I'm kind of on the fence here.  I can see both points of view.  It probably would depend a lot on what else is in my hand.  If I had some other gas of some kind, I'd probably do the blind Tinker route, but if I only had one tutor I'd probably play it safe and go for Necro.  I fear Colossus getting kicked and having no other immediate path.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

I don't understand how Necro helps the situation if they can go infinite. All Necro does against tezz is give them more turns to get drain+mana online when you go for your bomb. Obviously they won't cast tezz if DSC is down but cutting off win conditions and options is always better than not. Might want to actually read what I wrote about turn 2 tinker vs turn 3 necro I wasn't talking about a random turn 5 Tinker that they can "just shrug and cast the combo".

Assuming that they are able to go for the combo right away, Tinker Colossus means you lose, whereas Necro means that you might draw into Force and be able to prevent them from assembling it.  If they can't go for the combo, then they will likely go for bounce and end the man plan; if you choose to play Necro, there's nothing to stop it once it hits.  You have already achieved a one-sided super-draw.  I think you're underestimating how much it swings the advantage once Necro hits, and losing the game post-Necro is very uncommon.

I'm really not underestimating Necro once it resolves I think you're underestimating how much harder it is to resolve a threat once your opponent has a second land drop. I've already stated that if it is between turn 2 Tinker and turn 2 Necro I would definitely fetch Necro but if I have reason to believe that they can combo off by their turn 3 I can always fetch jar instead of fatty. This isn't the days of 4xBrainstorm+4xMerchant Scroll there is often a good chance DSC will go all the way if not at least cutting your storm in 1/2.

Post-board I would go for necro because of the extra bounce and the fact that it taps/sacs to wire/smokey is just gravy. Pre-board though I'd go for DSC and against a blind deck this is likely what we're talking about.

Going DSC against a "blind deck" aka you have no clue what your up against.... Why would you go Plan B because I don't know what I'm up against?! Still DSC is a big threat for a shop player and one the will need to deal with. But some Shop lists run Welder, some run Duplicant all things you don't want to see. Like I said TPS was build to function with a Trinisphere in play so you should have no trouble going combo pre-board. I've said this before both routes are equally viable and should be considered but just blindly going Tinker - DSC is a bad thing imo.

I was comparing most decks when considering whether necro or tinker is better blind. They have no draw engine and if they have Welder they'll likely cast it turn 1 so it should be pretty obvious that you're not going to Tinker for DSC.

I'm kind of on the fence here.  I can see both points of view.  It probably would depend a lot on what else is in my hand.  If I had some other gas of some kind, I'd probably do the blind Tinker route, but if I only had one tutor I'd probably play it safe and go for Necro.  I fear Colossus getting kicked and having no other immediate path.

So overall you fear a singleton bounce and some tutors more than a playset of drains+their draw engine digging them into more FoWs? There are only 2 decks I would prefer a later necro and that is basically because they run welder.

[Benfa]

I'm testing IT appproach too and i like it, that's my list:

2 Island
1 Swamp
4 U. Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded strand
1 Tolarian Academy

5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault

4 Force of Will
2 Intuition
3 Deep analysis
4 Dark Ritual
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Ponder
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Mind's Desire
4 Duress
1 Timetwister
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk
1 Necropotence
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Memory jar
1 Yawgmoth's bargain


SB:

3 Dark Confidant
3 Trinket mage
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 E. explosive
1 Sensei divining top
1 Sundering titan
1 Darksteel colossus
2 Hurkyl's Recall

The deck is a mix between tps and it, i really like deep, i'm testing it quite enough with good results. The side is simply an experiment, it gives you a lot of side plan options.

[Mr. Type 4]

I always feel like this deck is a little bit more "free form"

You don't usually try to strategize what you do in certain matches like "go for necro" etc - you have so many different cards that that variance is really high.  You're better suited to just try to play the hands that yopu get optimally because the cards in here are so powerful that you can't help but win when you resolve a number of broken spells.

Re: Rack and ruin - generally bad.  Hurkyl's/rebuild/Chain of Vapor give you great versitility in the main deck in that they can help you storm out and pitch to Force of Will, so they are much less likely to be dead draws.

Re: Intuition/Deep - i feel like these cards just become blanks when you face the Tormod's Crypts that EVERYONE has in their sideboard.  They're ok in game 1, but it just seems like too many bad cards for games 2 and 3.  I think a lot of cards like this are red herrings in the development of this deck because they are good cards and will win you games - but I don't think they are the best cards that will win you many games.

Re: Pyroclasm vs Massacre: if you got red, Pyroclasm is WAY better.  it's WAY more versitile, and gets in under Gaddok Teeg.  If you dont have red, you're stuck with Massacre and Slaughter Pact.  Sure Massacre is free, but you only have 15 sideboard cards so you want ones that will work in the most matches.

Re: Inkwell - I just dont know if this guy is better than DSC.  1 more turn could be a big deal when people could put vault/key together and just win.  Of course this is the guy you can Tinker for without having any back-up in hand which is nice.  I'll tell you all this, though - a LARGE portion of the games I win with DSC involve me playing the guy and having Time Walk on the next turn.  Inky isn't going to make that combination a winner very often. 

Re: Unrestricting Mind's Desire - this seems like a terrible idea.  Mind's Desire is way more powerful in multiples and should you be allowed to play 4 the deck would be quite different from this one.  If they do anything to the restricted list i think it should be to unrestrict more things but not Desire =)

For fixers in the currrent age I like Impulse and TFK but i think that just playing more "bombs" is the best solution.  There's not a lot of Grim Tutors in these lists, and I think with 6+rituals you definitly want at least 1.

[Marske]

I always feel like this deck is a little bit more "free form"

I totally agree  sure you have some big outline of play vs some decks (bounce + combo vs staxx for example) but mostly you're just trying to do what you can with the cards you get. Which seems totally obvious but isn't really something most players are comfortable with.

Re: Pyroclasm vs Massacre: if you got red, Pyroclasm is WAY better.  it's WAY more versitile, and gets in under Gaddok Teeg.  If you dont have red, you're stuck with Massacre and Slaughter Pact.  Sure Massacre is free, but you only have 15 sideboard cards so you want ones that will work in the most matches.

I totally agree with you that if you have access to more red then the single Mox Ruby Pyro is the better card for the situation, but is it worth splashing red just for ETW, Pyro, Wheel at this point ? My first thought on this would be no because you would benefit more of the stable mana base that U/B gives you with decks like BUG, WS Shop aggro and staxx all running around.

Re: Inkwell - I just don't know if this guy is better than DSC.  1 more turn could be a big deal when people could put vault/key together and just win.  Of course this is the guy you can Tinker for without having any back-up in hand which is nice.  I'll tell you all this, though - a LARGE portion of the games I win with DSC involve me playing the guy and having Time Walk on the next turn.  Inky isn't going to make that combination a winner very often.

This is exactly what my testing has proved and why I think leviathan is not the right card for TPS. Sure it pitches to FOW and it can't be plowed or sowered or whatever nasty thing people can do to DSC... But the Colossus just grabs you games when you don't want to give that extra turn away. In other decks the Leviathan would probably be much better but in TPS it's not really worth the time walk you just gave your opponent imo.

Re: Unrestricting Mind's Desire - this seems like a terrible idea.  Mind's Desire is way more powerful in multiples and should you be allowed to play 4 the deck would be quite different from this one.  If they do anything to the restricted list i think it should be to unrestrict more things but not Desire =)

Everybody that's ever played TEPS in extended already knows what happens when minds desire chains into desire chains into desire chains into desire.... with the brokenness in vintage this would be even more stupidly good. The deck would look a lot different but it would def be the best combo deck on the block by a mile.

[OwenTheEnchanter]

Not to mention how easy Mind's Desire is to cast with Manamorphose, and how insane Manamorphose is when you flip it off a Desire.

[Troy_Costisick]

Everybody that's ever played TEPS in extended already knows what happens when minds desire chains into desire chains into desire chains into desire.... with the brokenness in vintage this would be even more stupidly good. The deck would look a lot different but it would def be the best combo deck on the block by a mile.

I can see it being broken in Extended where card choices are so much more limited.  But how does a Minds Desire not just win the game on its own in Vintage?  You're going to hit Yawg's Will, Bargain, or enough Jewlery and Tendrils to win on the spot.  I fail to see how running multiple six mana sorceries that require double blue is going to be a better play choice over 4 Ad Nauseams.  AdN is does the same thing only better since you can cast it off Rituals without any blue requirement at all.

Not to mention how easy Mind's Desire is to cast with Manamorphose, and how insane Manamorphose is when you flip it off a Desire.

That sounds like a really cool build to me.  Morphose Tendrils?  I'm in.

[the boogie man]

If desire gets unrestricted, stifle would get much better. blah blah blah into desire->stifle seems (hypothetically) good.

[LordHomerCat]

Desire will never be unrestricted.  It was restricted pre-emptively for god's sake.  The card is way too busted, it isn't even legal in Legacy.

[Marske]

I can see it being broken in Extended where card choices are so much more limited.  But how does a Minds Desire not just win the game on its own in Vintage?

Desire is only "lethal" if you get 4+ storm, with 4 desire and the topdeck tutors we have in vintage a desire of 3 would easily be lethal enough for you to seal the deal. (this is a bold claim and I don't have any data to back it up but the card is B.U.S.T.E.D.)

I fail to see how running multiple six mana sorceries that require double blue is going to be a better play choice over 4 Ad Nauseams.  AdN is does the same thing only better since you can cast it off Rituals without any blue requirement at all.

I've done a LOT of work on ANT, and that's pretty well documented I guess... and I know for a fact that Ad Nauseam is no where NEAR the brokenness 4 desires would give you.

But this is going way off topic, Minds Desire will never be unrestricted in Vintage...

[Ufactor]

quick question: has anyone tested Sleight of Hand?

[policehq]

Desire will never be unrestricted.  It was restricted pre-emptively for god's sake.  The card is way too busted, it isn't even legal in Legacy.

Is the bolded text necessarily proof of anything? Is that a good policy? After all, Personal Tutor was also restricted pre-emptively.

I think this fact is nearly as irrelevant as Rack Balance decks being too strong in their day.

[M.Solymossy]

Is the bolded text necessarily proof of anything?

Mind's Desire is ABSOLUTELY F-ING DUMB... if they unrestrict this card, all vintage tournaments will turn into 4Desire.dec.  There would be NO reason to play anything but mind's Desire.  HAVE YOU PLAYED THAT CARD?! HAVE YOU HAD IT WITH STORM >5?. 

I feel that the person suggesting it's unrestriction plays on the casual circuit... kitchen table cup.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

The bold text is proof that the ridiculous power level of mind's desire was obvious upon its creation. Beleive it or not, sometimes the dci doesn't mess up, like with personal tutor, and gets pre-emptive restrictions/restrictions correct.

Whenever I know my opponant is out controlling me and the odds are looking bad I turn to mind's desire to make a play. Its nearly impossable to counter and even more imune to grave hate. Typlicaly storm 5 is enough to win the game effortlessly, and with more bombs avaliable in tps, that number is only going down. Mind's desire is a one card combo that puts Tezz to shame.

edit: Soly beat me to the post while I was typing, but I feel the need to keep my post here to emphasise the point.

[tomjoad]

Is the bolded text necessarily proof of anything?

Mind's Desire is ABSOLUTELY F-ING DUMB... if they unrestrict this card, all vintage tournaments will turn into 4Desire.dec.  There would be NO reason to play anything but mind's Desire.  HAVE YOU PLAYED THAT CARD?! HAVE YOU HAD IT WITH STORM >5?. 

I feel that the person suggesting it's unrestriction plays on the casual circuit... kitchen table cup.

I've actually cast it with storm 11...and lost the game. All lands/rituals/artifacts.

People harping the casting cost of Mind's Desire are missing the point entirely. Whether you have 1 or 4 copies in your deck, obviously you're never going to PAY for Mind's Desire more than once in a game. The problem is that if the first Desire hits a second one, you essentially get to draw your entire library for no additional cost (unless you consider playing free spells a "cost"). Unrestricting Desire is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard regarding keeping T1 healthy and fun.

[nineisnoone]

Re: Inkwell - I just dont know if this guy is better than DSC.  1 more turn could be a big deal when people could put vault/key together and just win.  Of course this is the guy you can Tinker for without having any back-up in hand which is nice.  I'll tell you all this, though - a LARGE portion of the games I win with DSC involve me playing the guy and having Time Walk on the next turn.  Inky isn't going to make that combination a winner very often.

I'd rather Inkwell against Aggro and DSC against Combo (Tezzeret would count).  My main concern with Inkwell is that it doesn't reshuffle with Thirst.  I really wouldn't want to hold onto it or pitch it.   Perhaps, a 1-of in the sideboard might be a way to go, as in the match-ups where Shroud is relevant it is really game breaking.

[Benfa]

Sleight of hand in my testing wasn't that good because i thought i would decrease the number of mulligan but i realized that a bad hand after a sleight of hand the most of the time is still a bad hand...

inkwell in my opinion in a deck with 1 brainstorm and 0 thirst for knowledge is really better than darksteel colossus. The fact of being blue is too relevant. Against control or tps you'll tinker always for jar, tinkering for colossus or inkwell is useless...

[Marske]

@Benfa, Nineisnoone,

I'll tell you all this, though - a LARGE portion of the games I win with DSC involve me playing the guy and having Time Walk on the next turn.  Inky isn't going to make that combination a winner very often.

I just totally agree with what Paul is saying here. You win a awful lot of games with DSC where Inky would just mean you did 14 damage and still lost to the other guy having 1 extra turn to grab key / vault / painter / stone / edict / global bounce / whatever nasty you can think of.

inkwell in my opinion in a deck with 1 brainstorm and 0 thirst for knowledge is really better than darksteel colossus. The fact of being blue is too relevant. Against control or tps you'll tinker always for jar, tinkering for colossus or inkwell is useless...

Being blue is relevant ? You're tinkering Jar vs drain decks ?

Although going combo is probably your best bet against drain decks DSC is a very real thread even to them, I've won several games vs drains with 1 dsc attack followed by a tendrils with 2/3 storm (usually seals the deal) Some times your hand is just perfect for the DSC kill, and I don't think removing your plan B) from the game is that good a thing all together... Tinkering for DSC in the TPS mirror can be a huge difference, both ways of winning are perfectly viable last time I played the mirror.

[chrissss]

Tinker
Oath
Beat for 11
Oath up 6-8
Beat for 5 (they block so they #1 don't die and #2 can oath again)
Oath up 6-8
Beat for 5 you win

yes if they play their oath after your tinker then yes. usually oath is in play, then tinkering for DSC doesnt work.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Tinker
Oath
Beat for 11
Oath up 6-8
Beat for 5 (they block so they #1 don't die and #2 can oath again)
Oath up 6-8
Beat for 5 you win

yes if they play their oath after your tinker then yes. usually oath is in play, then tinkering for DSC doesnt work.

Even if they cast Oath before you Tinker they would have to hit Akroma as their first creature for the vigilance to keep them alive+kill you. Flipping Overlord first would kill them. Oh and they can't have one of the two in their hand and they'll be at 4 life where dark rit+tendrils is lethal or if they use fow+fetch they'll be at 2 life. So basically it is a 50/50 chance to flip Akroma and then add to that the % chance of them having one of the two creatures in their hand and the % chance of you being able to cast tendrils+1 spell off a draw-7 or something and then add the % chance of you being able to hit a bounce spell then subtract the odds of them getting a bounce spell and the numbers say do it. Not to mention if they went Orchard->Mox->Oath go you can still Tinker for Jar to dig yourself back. Necro just becomes a dead card in your hand. Not to mention Oath lists run 4xChalice of the Void and multiple Null Rods to shut/slow down your Necro->Tendrils plan.

[geckoskin]

Even if they cast Oath before you Tinker they would have to hit Akroma as their first creature for the vigilance to keep them alive+kill you. Flipping Overlord first would kill them. Oh and they can't have one of the two in their hand and they'll be at 4 life where dark rit+tendrils is lethal or if they use fow+fetch they'll be at 2 life. So basically it is a 50/50 chance to flip Akroma and then add to that the % chance of them having one of the two creatures in their hand and the % chance of you being able to cast tendrils+1 spell off a draw-7 or something and then add the % chance of you being able to hit a bounce spell then subtract the odds of them getting a bounce spell and the numbers say do it. Not to mention if they went Orchard->Mox->Oath go you can still Tinker for Jar to dig yourself back. Necro just becomes a dead card in your hand. Not to mention Oath lists run 4xChalice of the Void and multiple Null Rods to shut/slow down your Necro->Tendrils plan.

your math is interesting. here's mine.

their turn: orchard, play oath.
your turn: play tinker, get colossus.
their turn: oath up hellkite, attack you for 8.
your turn: attack for 13 with colossus + token
their turn: oath up akroma, attack for 14. you are dead.

how exacty does colossus race again?

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Even if they cast Oath before you Tinker they would have to hit Akroma as their first creature for the vigilance to keep them alive+kill you. Flipping Overlord first would kill them. Oh and they can't have one of the two in their hand and they'll be at 4 life where dark rit+tendrils is lethal or if they use fow+fetch they'll be at 2 life. So basically it is a 50/50 chance to flip Akroma and then add to that the % chance of them having one of the two creatures in their hand and the % chance of you being able to cast tendrils+1 spell off a draw-7 or something and then add the % chance of you being able to hit a bounce spell then subtract the odds of them getting a bounce spell and the numbers say do it. Not to mention if they went Orchard->Mox->Oath go you can still Tinker for Jar to dig yourself back. Necro just becomes a dead card in your hand. Not to mention Oath lists run 4xChalice of the Void and multiple Null Rods to shut/slow down your Necro->Tendrils plan.

your math is interesting. here's mine.

their turn: orchard, play oath.
your turn: play tinker, get colossus.
their turn: oath up hellkite, attack you for 8.
your turn: attack for 13 with colossus + token
their turn: oath up akroma, attack for 14. you are dead.

how exacty does colossus race again?

When did I say Colossus races Orchard->Mox->Oath? I suggest you read what I actually wrote. It was part of a debate between blindly going for Necropotence and blindly going for Tinker. Necropotence is useless against the nuts draw of Oath(most things are) but Tinker still fetches Jar if they somehow pull of the absolute balls. Your math is correct but your assumption is faulty making the whole comment rather pointless. What you quoted was me talking about them dropping Oath before you Tinker and deciding whether to Tinker for Jar or DSC.

[Marske]

Tinker
Oath
Beat for 11
Oath up 6-8
Beat for 5 (they block so they #1 don't die and #2 can oath again)
Oath up 6-8
Beat for 5 you win

You clearly stated this piece of glorious math on the second page of this discussion, I'm going to try and be as civil as I possibly can and explain to you how this works.
IF you tinker at this point for DSC like you stated here you do 2 things, first of all you helped your opponents plan (hey look my strategy needs my opponent to play dudes and he does how nice of him!!) and second because BOTH the creatures that see the most play in oath have haste (Akroma + Hellkite) you've cut off your Bargain, Necro, Grims and basically everything that makes your deck go busted. If they Oath up the Hellkite and still have some mana open which they can use to boast it with it's comes crashing in on you for 10+ damage all because you fetched a dude, how this is "good" I can never understand but you'll probably win more matches then I do (Sarcasm guys not ego)

Was assuming turn 3 necro vs turn 2 tinker where both are equally fast barring necro fizzling one way or another. Also DSC beats the planeswalker's face in hardcore if they try to win via him quickly while necro can put you in the red zone to a pair of moxen.

Like I said before, I've played a lot vs Tezz and if you Tinker on turn 1 (with backup) for the big dude and they just go ok and put Key into play followed by Vault before turn 3 (very likely) you still lose because you'll be using your protection to stop them (remember FoW is at it's best when used offensively in TPS)  a resolved necro against tezz will basically win you the game 9 out of 10 times you do it. Look at what Tezzerett players are saying "Tezzeret was the worst card in my deck all day" I've never never lost to them draining something big (while playing TPS mind you) and dropping tezzeret... Remember we are a LOT faster then they are at assembling stuff at 4/5/6 mana, they need to drain your spells before they can do that and we just play rituals. (good luck draining those for enough mana)

When did I say Colossus races Orchard->Mox->Oath? I suggest you read what I actually wrote. It was part of a debate between blindly going for Necropotence and blindly going for Tinker. Necropotence is useless against the nuts draw of Oath(most things are) but Tinker still fetches Jar if they somehow pull of the absolute balls. Your math is correct but your assumption is faulty making the whole comment rather pointless. What you quoted was me talking about them dropping Oath before you Tinker and deciding whether to Tinker for Jar or DSC.

First of all, Land that produces green, Mox, Oath is NOT the absolute ballz for them and is a lot more common then you think. If you opponent knows he's playing vs TPS it would actually be his best bet (if that land is a Orchard even more so) if they don't run Null rod, Chalice that is. besides dropping chalice at zero is a lot more effective then putting chalice on 1 in the early rounds...

Am I reading this wrong or did you read your own posts wrong... First you say: "I was talking about turn 3 necro vs turn 2 tinker" look at the math example you gave us (clearly puts tinker before Oath dropping in play) and now you say: "What you quoted was me talking about them dropping Oath before you Tinker and deciding whether to Tinker for Jar or DSC."

When playing blindly... (I assume you mean you have no clue what you're facing) you ALWAYS execute your plan A which is getting 9 spells and Tendrills. TPS has only a few real bad matches (Shops, Fish, Remora) and the rest of the field will easily submit to the speed and resilience you have. Going Tinker - dude is your plan B and if you don't know what your up against is almost always worse then going combo.

I hope I posted in a civil manner and in no way do I mean to offend you or anything but you REALLY need to stop discussing about a deck you clearly haven't played that much in real settings (AKA Tournaments) or listen to the guys that did. Don't take my word for it, I only got 1 top 8 finish with the deck but Paul clearly has more experience and I'm sure His first plan will always be "go combo" 10 out of 10 times when facing a "blind" opponent

[chrissss]

@ FlyFlySideOfFry

Reasons why you put necro instead of tinker/DSC vs oath

A) oath outraces DSC which people here have stated.
B) Most oath decks run bounce, if they bounce necro after you have refilled your hand, they acually help you, because you get a draw phase again, plus your hand will be full of cards. bouncing a DSC sucks.
C) if your opponent isn't using hellkite / akroma, you are screwed with the DSC. if they run the Progenitus and spinx, you will be wishing you had played necro, not only would necro have given you 9 ( or way more) free cards, unless they target themselves obviously, but your 11 will be blocked by a 10/10. Same goes for tyrant oath, necro is way better than a targetable creature.
Another thing, Hellkite regenerates, most oath decks will have    available to regenerate, which means the one turn they can block your DSC, take 3, then next turn attack with the angel, block again, then go in for the kill.
D) necro is sick. I have been playing vs tps loads in the last week with some nice tips from some experienced tps players, and if they hit necro, bargain or Jar, it usually means loss. I don't think I have lost to DSC a single time.
E) if necro gets countered, meh. plenty of bombs left. If tinker gets countered, meh plenty of bombs left, except now you lost 1 (probably) mana producing artifact which sets you back compared to necro.
F) in the rare case that oath doesnt have orchard, your DSC will give them a creature which activates oath.
G) did I mention necro is sick?

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Tinker
Oath
Beat for 11
Oath up 6-8
Beat for 5 (they block so they #1 don't die and #2 can oath again)
Oath up 6-8
Beat for 5 you win

You clearly stated this piece of glorious math on the second page of this discussion, I'm going to try and be as civil as I possibly can and explain to you how this works.
IF you tinker at this point for DSC like you stated here you do 2 things, first of all you helped your opponents plan (hey look my strategy needs my opponent to play dudes and he does how nice of him!!) and second because BOTH the creatures that see the most play in oath have haste (Akroma + Hellkite) you've cut off your Bargain, Necro, Grims and basically everything that makes your deck go busted. If they Oath up the Hellkite and still have some mana open which they can use to boast it with it's comes crashing in on you for 10+ damage all because you fetched a dude, how this is "good" I can never understand but you'll probably win more matches then I do (Sarcasm guys not ego)

The only mana oath decks usually run to pump Hellkite is Orchard and 2 (3 if they opt for petal) artifacts. If they opened with land->ruby->oath I would probably go for Jar with Tinker instead of DSC. Other than that you can still race a Hellkite if you Tinker->DSC before they cast Oath.

Was assuming turn 3 necro vs turn 2 tinker where both are equally fast barring necro fizzling one way or another. Also DSC beats the planeswalker's face in hardcore if they try to win via him quickly while necro can put you in the red zone to a pair of moxen.

Like I said before, I've played a lot vs Tezz and if you Tinker on turn 1 (with backup) for the big dude and they just go ok and put Key into play followed by Vault before turn 3 (very likely) you still lose because you'll be using your protection to stop them (remember FoW is at it's best when used offensively in TPS)  a resolved necro against tezz will basically win you the game 9 out of 10 times you do it. Look at what Tezzerett players are saying "Tezzeret was the worst card in my deck all day" I've never never lost to them draining something big (while playing TPS mind you) and dropping tezzeret... Remember we are a LOT faster then they are at assembling stuff at 4/5/6 mana, they need to drain your spells before they can do that and we just play rituals. (good luck draining those for enough mana)

If they can assemble key/vault fast enough to stop DSC they can assemble key/vault fast enough to stop Necro 1 turn later. Aside from hoping to rip a FoW off Necro and praying your opponent is not holding Drain what is different?

When did I say Colossus races Orchard->Mox->Oath? I suggest you read what I actually wrote. It was part of a debate between blindly going for Necropotence and blindly going for Tinker. Necropotence is useless against the nuts draw of Oath(most things are) but Tinker still fetches Jar if they somehow pull of the absolute balls. Your math is correct but your assumption is faulty making the whole comment rather pointless. What you quoted was me talking about them dropping Oath before you Tinker and deciding whether to Tinker for Jar or DSC.

First of all, Land that produces green, Mox, Oath is NOT the absolute ballz for them and is a lot more common then you think. If you opponent knows he's playing vs TPS it would actually be his best bet (if that land is a Orchard even more so) if they don't run Null rod, Chalice that is. besides dropping chalice at zero is a lot more effective then putting chalice on 1 in the early rounds...

Am I reading this wrong or did you read your own posts wrong... First you say: "I was talking about turn 3 necro vs turn 2 tinker" look at the math example you gave us (clearly puts tinker before Oath dropping in play) and now you say: "What you quoted was me talking about them dropping Oath before you Tinker and deciding whether to Tinker for Jar or DSC."

When playing blindly... (I assume you mean you have no clue what you're facing) you ALWAYS execute your plan A which is getting 9 spells and Tendrills. TPS has only a few real bad matches (Shops, Fish, Remora) and the rest of the field will easily submit to the speed and resilience you have. Going Tinker - dude is your plan B and if you don't know what your up against is almost always worse then going combo.

I hope I posted in a civil manner and in no way do I mean to offend you or anything but you REALLY need to stop discussing about a deck you clearly haven't played that much in real settings (AKA Tournaments) or listen to the guys that did. Don't take my word for it, I only got 1 top 8 finish with the deck but Paul clearly has more experience and I'm sure His first plan will always be "go combo" 10 out of 10 times when facing a "blind" opponent

I was talking about Orchard->Mox->Oath being the absolute balls, not randomly dropping Oath.

What he quoted was my post about them dropping Oath before Tinker. The math I posted a page ago was about Tinker before Oath.

Remora and Fish decks are on the rise to combat tezz. DSC is gold in the matchups Necro is bad in, Necro is gold in the matchups DSC is bad in, and against the rest of the field they're both about the same power. I think Welder-based decks (what Tinker fails against) are at a sharp decline making Tinker the better choice. In a Welder-filled metagame Necro would be the go-to plan. The reason Tinker is so good because it is both an 11/11 trampler and a draw-7 depending on what your opponent plays in the turn it sits in your hand.

@ FlyFlySideOfFry

Reasons why you put necro instead of tinker/DSC vs oath

A) oath outraces DSC which people here have stated.
B) Most oath decks run bounce, if they bounce necro after you have refilled your hand, they acually help you, because you get a draw phase again, plus your hand will be full of cards. bouncing a DSC sucks.
C) if your opponent isn't using hellkite / akroma, you are screwed with the DSC. if they run the Progenitus and spinx, you will be wishing you had played necro, not only would necro have given you 9 ( or way more) free cards, unless they target themselves obviously, but your 11 will be blocked by a 10/10. Same goes for tyrant oath, necro is way better than a targetable creature.
Another thing, Hellkite regenerates, most oath decks will have    available to regenerate, which means the one turn they can block your DSC, take 3, then next turn attack with the angel, block again, then go in for the kill.
D) necro is sick. I have been playing vs tps loads in the last week with some nice tips from some experienced tps players, and if they hit necro, bargain or Jar, it usually means loss. I don't think I have lost to DSC a single time.
E) if necro gets countered, meh. plenty of bombs left. If tinker gets countered, meh plenty of bombs left, except now you lost 1 (probably) mana producing artifact which sets you back compared to necro.
F) in the rare case that oath doesnt have orchard, your DSC will give them a creature which activates oath.
G) did I mention necro is sick?

A) Unless it is accompanied by Orchard then not really. You can always go for Jar and draw-8 with all your lands untapped.
B) They run many more combo-hating cards than bounce spells. Most Oath players consider the combo match favorable so plan A clearly isn't that effective.
C) Despite all the hype over the other creatures most Oath players still pack the angels main-deck because game 1 winning fast is usually better than untargetability. It is the exact same reason why TPS runs DSC and not Inkwell. Tyrant is almost dead because of the gutting of basically 1/3 of the deck by the restrictions. Going for DSC if they have Orchard+Oath is ballsy as hell I was just saying it isn't as bad as it is made out to be if you do it fast enough. Worst case scenario see D).
D) Tinker is Jar.
E) At the speed you're talking about you would likely burn a ritual for Necro.
F) It is hardly a rare case of Oath NOT having Orchard+Oath on turn 1.
G) Anyone who says otherwise should quit MTG.

[jamestosetti]

Soly, yea the casual circuit is killer but keep it on the topic.  Inkwell leviathon is definitly not better than colossus in this deck. Mind's desire being unrestricted is more of a what if topic but it doesnt seem bad to me because there are so many ways to stop it and I think it would bring some more control decks into the game.  I'll probably just try 2 engineered explosives in my s/b for mathups that give me trouble like teeg or oath. I think I'll keep the intuition in for game 1 like Mr. type 4 said and s/b a rebuild or something. I'll do some testing and put what I've used on here in a couple hours. I did try using lotus blooms and timespirals and mana drains and was actually beating alot of decks including tps but its no where as good as tps. It's fun though.

[jamestosetti]

I ended up using the standard tps list with 3 duress and 1 intuition where game 2 I s/b in 2 hymn to tourachs for a duress and the intuition. Here is the s/b.

2 pithing needle
2 tormod's crypt
3 extirpate
2 slaughter pact
2 hurkyl's recall
2 hymn to tourach
2 engineered explosives