TPS players

[jamestosetti]

They run what 2 commondeers? Mayby I don't have a clear understanding of the matchup. Mayby I win because I'm a lucky noob? I do know what it takes to beat the deck or you could say I can tell when they have a weak hand and I can capitalize on it. The remora deck is pretty good but I don't think it's a super great deck. The best a tps player can do in a tournament is think it all through and use there disruption the best they can. So if the tps player isn't facing the remora deck all day it doesn't really matter. All you can do is the best you can. Hymn to tourach is pretty nice against the remora deck though.

[Marske]

TPS is a definate dog in the matchup.

I agree with you about this Webster, although this matchup is still unfavorable and nowhere near 50/50 it's not unbeatable. The biggest problem you face when playing against remora is that you can't really board against it. The fundemental principle of their deck is created to beat yours and nothing short of switching your game plan (not play storm) would do the trick in making this matchup favorable. I know I said that I wasn't sure if Remora is really your worst match up, (still believe this title goes to Staxx) but I am sure it's one of the decks I don't want to face during a top 8.

You can't really call Remora 'just a drain deck' because they have Commandeer; that spell puts them over the top. It's not even funny how good that spell is versus TPS.

Again agreed... Commandeer puts remora's matchup vs TPS over the top.

Disclaimer: This is not me flaming you this is me trying to tell you that you're wrong.

They run what 2 commondeers? Mayby I don't have a clear understanding of the matchup.

They run a total of 4 FoW, 2-3 commandeer, 1-2 Misdirection and Vendilion Clique which all completly wreck you... you saying that Remora isn't one of your rougher matchups and maybe even Favorable or 50/50 indicates you clearly don't understand the match up (play TPS vs a player like Rich Shay and you'll find out what MWS players do wrong with remora, trust me I did this a lot.)

Mayby I win because I'm a lucky noob?

Maybe you win because you have lousy testing partners.

The remora deck is pretty good but I don't think it's a super great deck.

Agreed, Remora isn't that good vs Staxx, Fish and aggro strategies in general... it IS really good vs TPS though.....

The best a tps player can do in a tournament is think it all through and use there disruption the best they can. So if the tps player isn't facing the remora deck all day it doesn't really matter. All you can do is the best you can. Hymn to tourach is pretty nice against the remora deck though.

Using your disruption will get you nowhere against a remotly decent Remora pilot, every single piece of disruption you play means cards for them so you're basically playing in their advantage. Hymn to Tourach is pretty bad vs Remora, if they misdirect or commandeer it  your in for a world of hurt, like I said before I'm not sure if you really board in anything let alone stuff like Hymn.

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

I you want to board against remora, you'll have to splash green for xantids and then you 'll have to assemble critical mass, killing them in one turn you attacked, because you can't hope to win next turn after playing into remora. Still, it's better, because xantid can't be commandeered.

[Marske]

I you want to board against remora, you'll have to splash green for xantids and then you 'll have to assemble critical mass, killing them in one turn you attacked, because you can't hope to win next turn after playing into remora. Still, it's better, because xantid can't be commandeered.

You are right about this, but then again splashing green for Xantid Swarm opens you up vs Wasteland and makes your matchup against Stax worse plus you are wasting 3 sideboard slots on "solving" this matchup. So I would be very hesitant about splashing green just for this, Remora decks are mostly meta game predators on their own, they thrive in a Drain / Storm rich environment, if you don't expect lots of remora decks to show up then this boarding plan isn't really good. If you do expect lots of Remora decks I would even consider not running TPS.

What I'm trying to say is you'll never see a meta consist out of more then 5-10% Remora (because remora mirrors are even more stupid then the "normal" drain mirror) and if you expect a diverse meta game the chances you'll face remora in the top 8 are very small. Being prepared and knowing how to handle this matchup is still needed but I'm not sure you should dedicate any sideboard or main deck cards to dealing with this.

[Qube]

Hmm about Remora.dec in T8 since Rich Shay in Salem, 17.01.2009:

17.01.09 - 31.01.09:   5x Top8
01.02.09 - 28.02.09:   5x Top8
01.03.09 - 31.03.09: 14x Top8 (3x more than Jan or Feb)

Data from morphling.de without April, I think in future there are alot more Remora.dec, because of the present of Tezz (overall), TPS. And when this archetype is in the meta for some time, that will figure out the best ways to use the Remora and the knowledge will come how to beat the bad matchup like Creatures and so on.

Does someone know how many % Remora.dec in the current meta has? I would be interessted.

But Back to topic:
for the SB:

I think a SB like this is atm good:

2 Leyline of the Void
2 Yixlid Jailer
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Hurkyl's Recall

the 8 slots for Ichorid are clear I think, the 3 Xantid are really good against Remora, and also you can use it against tezzeret if you would. And I play 2 Swamp & 2 Island main and in the Side those duals. so you also can sb out the 2 off-mox and play those lands. and with 4 bounce against staxx that should reach. What do you think about this?

[Marske]

Data from morphling.de without April, I think in future there are alot more Remora.dec, because of the present of Tezz (overall), TPS. And when this archetype is in the meta for some time, that will figure out the best ways to use the Remora and the knowledge will come how to beat the bad matchup like Creatures and so on.

First of all, you can't just say "remora was in the top 8 x times" like that, I said very clearly that remora is a metagame deck and if you expect it a lot (like you should when playing in NE with most people not familiar with the concept of Staxx, Fish or any other kind of deck except drains *just kidding guys*) you shouldn't even be considering playing TPS because that would be the death of you. Drain decks have the historic fault of being weak against aggro decks, and with Remora, Meditate, Misdirection and Commandeer (all cards Remora runs a lot and don't interact with creatures that well) and the high blue count needed to support these pitch counters it's next to impossible to find a solid solution to this matchup for them (besides the printing of a blue instant speed 1 mana wrath of god type card but like thats ever going to happen.)

the 8 slots for Ichorid are clear I think, the 3 Xantid are really good against Remora, and also you can use it against tezzeret if you would. And I play 2 Swamp & 2 Island main and in the Side those duals. so you also can sb out the 2 off-mox and play those lands. and with 4 bounce against staxx that should reach. What do you think about this?

The problem with this is that boarding in duals against any wasteland deck doesn't really seem better then keeping the moxen in the deck.  It's not only shop decks you need to worry about. That all being said if you don't expect a lot of Shops but do expect lots of Remora and you find it necessary to run TPS (for whatever reason)  the Swarms are your best bet

[jamestosetti]

           If your opponent starts dropping remora's he will also be paying the upkeep cost. At worst your going to start getting your graveyard ready for a yawg will. When he is done with the remora's then you can use whatever cards you have accumalated to start disrupting him and to counter his bigger threats. Even if the remora is out you can still win. I'm sure it's never time to jump for joy when you know your playing against this but I think we definitly have harder matchups. Mayby I just enjoy playing the game to much to worry how hard it is. I could easily join the bandwagon and play the remora deck myself and then say your crazy for playing tps against this but I think it's better to choose a deck and play the death out of it. Thanks for all the replies they were great.

[gamegeek2]

The best MD plan against remora is probably to Tinker. Maybe we need to pack Goyfs or K-Grip in the side.

[jamestosetti]

          Those arn't bad ideas but I don't think we can afford to destablize our mana base in this metagame. I don't know how effective tarmogoyfs would be either.  After all the games I've played I've ended up with the same conclusion. To play the list recommended in So Many Insane Plays. The only card that I have been able to change myself is intuition. Sensei's divining top is pretty good but it wasn't my idea.

[M.Solymossy]

           If your opponent starts dropping remora's he will also be paying the upkeep cost. At worst your going to start getting your graveyard ready for a yawg will. When he is done with the remora's then you can give whatever cards you have accumalated to to start disrupting him and to counter his bigger threats. Even if the remora is out you can still win. I'm sure it's never time to jump for joy when you know your playing against this but I think we definitly have harder matchups. Mayby I just enjoy playing the game to much to worry how hard it is. I could easily join the bandwagon and play the remora deck myself and then say your crazy for playing tps against this but I think it's better to choose a deck and play the death out of it. Thanks for all the replies they were great.

Are you a real person?  I'm starting to think  Owen is right.  You first suggest that Hymn to tourcach is good against them.  Then you suggest breaking through their counter wall with your disruption.  You do realize they play commandeer right?  You're gunna get your duress commandeered and then lose.  Or even worse, toss your Hymn at them and watch them say "LOL" and Hymn you with their commandeer.    You're not winning this game ever with the suggestions you've posted.

[jamestosetti]

I'm not sure what you and your friend Owen mean? If you can't understand what I did then don't worry about it.  Although they play those cards does not mean they can't be counterd or duressed away. The hymn to tourach worked in the games I played. I think they actually did misdirect or commendeer the hymn once but I still won the match.  I think you guys are right on the hymn not being a great idea because I ditched it for fact or fiction already.

[Marske]

I'm not sure what you and your friend Owen mean? If you can't understand what I did then don't worry about it.  Although they play those cards does not mean they can't be counterd or duressed away. The hymn to tourach worked in the games I played. I think they actually did misdirect or commendeer the hymn once but I still won the match.  I think you guys are right on the hymn not being a great idea because I ditched it for fact or fiction already.

Actually the fact that Remora plays Commandeer, Misdir, Clique (which can't be duressed), FoW means they can't be durresed away... playing a duress with Remora out means taking for example a commandeer and giving them +1 card (most likely another pitch counter)

The fact that you got your own Hymn Misdirected and still won indicates to me that you've been playing with very lousy Remora pilots. Doing this may boost your own ego (hey look I win) but doesn't make you a better player and gives very tainted results which you now post here. Please stop doing this, it makes you look bad and doesn't benefit this discussion which was decent but not yet ok imo.

On a final note: You're running FoF in your sideboard ?!?!

[jamestosetti]

       Marske lets keep this civil. It seems some people are very hurt by the fact the remora deck is not invincible. I only offered advice on ways to spot vulnerability. If at all possible lets keep insults out of this and stick to concentrated posts  about tps or it's mathups. Lets try to keep this as mature as possible because I don't care if the mods lock this post for immaturaty or derailment.

[Marske]

@James,
I thought my response was pretty civil...  Sure like I said the Remora deck isn't invincible but it's not like you should be glad to face it or that it's anywhere near favorable and to be perfectly honest, I think my contribution to this thread has been more concentrated on the matchups, solving stuff and TPS in general then you posting about stuff that works nice on MWS against random guys who don't know Teeg stops EE or have no clue how to play Remora against TPS.

I'm not sure what you really want to hear, constructive comments on what the rest of the players think about the stuff you're trying or just praises because you "solved" stuff (which imo you didn't)

[jamestosetti]

   So what kind of response are you looking for from my side? Every game I win or lose means nothing because it was on the computer? I just play the deck and decided to share my experiences to someone who thought the matchup was nearly unwinnable.  Then I get a ton of responses directed at me and not the matchup in general. If you feel my play is flawed then I cannot say why it has worked. Mayby I should go play more pointless games and fret over the uselessness of the games I play?
 I think you take this a little to seriously as none of what I said to the other person was harmful or directed towards you. None of you even decided to share strategy to beat the remora deck with that user.  So now that my strategy against the deck has been deemed horrible and that I am a confused individual would anyone like to share some strategy on how the user can win this matchup?

[swawagon]

James no one is trying to bash you. Simply your results and comments about the strategy of TPS versus Remora are atypical.

A Mystic Remora across the table from a TPS player is just fundamentally bad. TPS has to cast spells to up the storm count, and each spell it casts is another card Remora draws the opponent. And they have more counters than TPS, by a lot.

Possibly 4 Phrexian Negator (such as Tommy Kolowith sported in his Doomsday storm list recently) in the TPS sideboard is a viable solution against a Mystic Remora deck.

[eaglewolf]

Returning for a moment to the tinker target discussion, I have to add that all of my (admittedly limited) testing shows Inkwell to be better than DSC right now. Pitching to force is huge, and shroud would have also been relevent.

[jamestosetti]

        I think I may see where my posts were somewhat strange sounding. Mystica remora on the table is bad for tps. What I had been doing is either countering it if possible or duressing it if that was my option. If it got to the table my plan is to let the remora run it's course if possible. Casting spells into it is not the best idea for sure. There are rare circumstances when you have the card advantage plus duress to push through a remora.  I'm not saying we breeze through this match but I do think there is a course of action you can take when you realize what your up against. If they have the remora and get the meditates rolling your smoke. If that is still worng I'm sorry but that's the best strategy I've found. When commendeer is in the mix you have to be thinking card advantage. It takes 2 blue spells for that to be cast so you need to watch their hand so you can plan it out and counter there spell. I'm not saying this is the win all strategy but meelry the only things I've found effective when playing them. And yes they do steal my necropotence and beat me with it lol.

[ancestral recall]

Returning for a moment to the tinker target discussion, I have to add that all of my (admittedly limited) testing shows Inkwell to be better than DSC right now. Pitching to force is huge, and shroud would have also been relevent.

I'm not agree with that. OK you have a point inkwell can also be used for pitching force but DSC makes it for the TPS player a faster clock on the game. Also with inkwell in your deck gives your opponent an extra turn to do something, maybe kill or searching for an answer. And my last opinion with DSC in main deck makes your storm count to kill much less than inkwell. I think the faster clock for the game with DSC and the less storm count makes in my opinion DSC better than inkwell.

[eaglewolf]

As I said, my testing so far is limited, so take this with a grain of salt, but so far I've had DSC stuck uselessly in my hand several times, where I really needed a blue card to pitch. I've also had the tinker->man play cut off by opposing welders. I have not *so far* had a situation where the extra turn from inkwell would have cost the game, to my knowledge. I originally ran DSC because as you say, it's faster, but storming out is the primary plan, and inkwell helps more with that. It's a tradeoff between having better protection or having a faster win, and I prefer to be better protected.

That being said, I think this is probably meta-dependant and is also influenced by playstyle.

[ancestral recall]

Ok I will start a discussion here with the following situation:

Player A in hand:

FoW, Necro, Island, Swamp (because duress was played before) and 2 cards I don't know.

Player A in play:
Mox Jet, Sea, Sea, Sea

In graveyard
Nothing usefull


Player B in hand:
Mana vault, Mox Pearl, Gifts, Ponder, Mystical Tutor

Player B in play:
Island, Swamp

In graveyard:
Duress, Rituals (Dark en Cabal), Fetch, Necro, Grim

Ok player B begins his/her turn and draws a Hurkyl's recall.


Scenario A:

Player B can play ponder, I think this spell resolves because player A wants to resolve his necro with fow backup. If player B plays ponder, player B doesn't have blue in his/her turn to play mystical or gifts. Only when ponder finds a blue mana source.


Scenario B:

Player B can play mystical tutor for example fow. This play make it possible that player B has a counter when necro resolves, but player A can draw with his necro a Fow, duress, misdirection so this chance is very big. So the gifts (threat) of player B is possible to force through player A. 


Scenario C:

Player B can cast gifts this turn with a swamp untapped. Then player A get the choice to fow the gifts, if he does, player A doesn't has fow backup for his necro. Player A probably won't cast necro because Player B has 3 unknown cards (mystical, ponder, h.recall)


My question what is in this situation the correct play? Motivate your answer!
You can come with all new input or scenario's.

[eaglewolf]

Player A in hand:
FoW, Necro, Island, Swamp (because duress was played before) and 2 cards I don't know.

In graveyard
Nothing usefull

This really doesn't make sense to me. If you Duress them and see FoW and Necro, why is "nothing useful" in their graveyard? What do you take over one of those cards that isn't useful in the graveyard?

--

Here's mine:

TPS Player: Turn 1 swamp, pass, turn 2 USea, pass. End of your turn cast Dark Ritual + FoF, protecting it at some point in the previous two turns with force (removing rebuild).
FoF resolves, revealing Ancestrall, DSC, Delta, Brainstorm, Necro. TPS has 3 cards in hand. How do you split this pile? Does it change your split if the DSC was Inkwell?

Now from the viewpoint of the TPS player: Using your previously defined split, which set do you take and why? Your hand is Lotus Petal, Cabal Ritual, Mire.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

What does everyone think about a TPS list looking like this...Its the basic UB TPS list with bob main it seems to test really well in a drain meta where as the bob just overwhelms my opponents, and the simple fact is that it still is bomb heavy to combo w/o drawing a bob...what does everyone think? Please give constructive criticisms, ideas, and/or changes?????

1 tolarian academy
2 underground sea
2 island
2 swamp
4 polluted delta
1 bloodstained mire

4 bob
4 dark ritual
1 cabal ritual
4 duress
1 necropotence
1 vampiric tutor
1 imperial seal
1 demonic tutor
1 yawgmoth's will
1 tendrils of agony

1 ancestral recall
1 ponder
1 brainstorm
1 merchant scroll
1 mystical tutor
1 gifts ungiven
1 tinker
1 timetwister
1 time walk
4 force of will
1 top
1 hurkyls recall
1 chain of vapor
1 mind's desire

1 inkwell leviathan

5 moxen
1 black lotus
1 lotus petal
1 mana crypt
1 sol ring
1 mana vault
1 memory jar

SB
1 grim tutor
3 jailer
2 tormods crypt
1 swamp
1 Island
1 chain of vapor
1 rebuild
1 hurkyls recall
1 extirpate
1 X
1 X

[Blovdek]

I like the idea, but i would probablly replace hurkyls recall with rebuild, as it is both storm enabler and a defense card and it cycles. As for the bobs i think u migh want to add 2nd tendrills of agony as with playing bobs tendrills became much better. But otherwise the deck seems strong for the drain heavy meta...

[hauntedechos]

just a minor point to make from a personal preference point of view.  I like an even split of fetch lands in case of an extirpate or pithing needle on one fetch or the other.

Haunted.

[LordHomerCat]

just a minor point to make from a personal preference point of view.  I like an even split of fetch lands in case of an extirpate or pithing needle on one fetch or the other.

Haunted.

What?  You definitely want 4 Delta before anything else because it gets both basics.  Drawing your one Mire against a wasteland deck when you need an island really sucks, and Strand is often the same problem, so you need 4 delta before anything else.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

just a minor point to make from a personal preference point of view.  I like an even split of fetch lands in case of an extirpate or pithing needle on one fetch or the other.

Haunted.

What?  You definitely want 4 Delta before anything else because it gets both basics.  Drawing your one Mire against a wasteland deck when you need an island really sucks, and Strand is often the same problem, so you need 4 delta before anything else.

Agreed, the 3/2 split is only favorable in decks that have 1 main color or 1 color of basics. The odds of having a fetch Extirpated or Needled is nowhere near as much as getting the fetch when you would prefer a basic. Especially if your opening hand is Swamp+Mire or Island+Strand forcing you to crack for a nonbasic to get both colors. Early basics are just too powerful for a deck like TPS. I've always felt like land drops are sort of like cheating in TPS. A free mana source that can't be countered or hit by Null Rod or Gorilla Shaman? YES! Being put in to situations where you have to give up that land is like getting caught and hit by the full penalty.

[Ruven]

I just started to play with TPS last week and hope you could help me a little with explaining the boardplan vs Fish decks.

I know someone had posted earlier about boarding, but I don't run the Goyfplan (or any Manplan) in my side so far, so my question is what do you board against fish in a UB version of TPS?
And what is the gameplan vs fish in general? And do you play differently against one Fish variant then against another (like the UWx or URx which are quite different from each other)?

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

I just started to play with TPS last week and hope you could help me a little with explaining the boardplan vs Fish decks.

I know someone had posted earlier about boarding, but I don't run the Goyfplan (or any Manplan) in my side so far, so my question is what do you board against fish in a UB version of TPS?
And what is the gameplan vs fish in general? And do you play differently against one Fish variant then against another (like the UWx or URx which are quite different from each other)?

If you don't want to go the man plan (which I think is a bad idea since it just dilutes your deck) I would suggest running a few key cards to deal with creatures (both targeted and board sweeping) between Slaughter Pact/Massacre/Infest/Chain of Vapor/Pyroclasm(if you run Wheel)/Darkblast in addition to leaving in all your artifact bounce or maybe even bringing more in to deal with Ethersworn Cannonist/Tidehollow Sculler/Null Rod/Chalice of the Void if it is BWX. Keep a varied range of threats since you don't want to get shut down by Teeg/Mage/Chalice. Sideboarded Thoughtseizes (if you haven't maindecked them for some reason) come in for Duress though I still try to keep some decent discard power against blue fish. Non-blue variants are usually much easier to beat as they just don't have the threats you care about as much so I would board out all my Duress (but leave in Thoughtseize). I would likely side out cards that are unlikely to resolve like Mind's Desire and play a really tight game.

My plan against Fish is to essentially push my life total as far as it will go to get to that one turn of blowing your opponent's creatures (unintentional pun) to just win. I treat draw-7s more as a draw spell than a game ending bomb and don't hesitate to grab a full grip in situations I normally wouldn't against faster decks. Try to grab basic lands and beware of Stifle both when comboing and cracking fetches. Don't be afraid to go all-in quickly if you have a reasonable way to recover like a tutor or draw-7 because unlike Drains, Fish won't be able to draw a ton of cards or tutor for more counterspells if they're holding the FoW. If you have a slower hand hold on to those tutors until you see what answer you need unless you can obviously combo out. Don't use your creature kill until you're sure you can combo out (or you have a couple of board sweepers) because the last thing you need is to find out your opponent was holding a multiple of what you didn't want to see. Fish will either be your easiest matchup or your worst nightmare based on their build and there is usually nothing you can do about it other than prepare well. I would suggest testing against Fish decks (those that are tuned to destroy combo because goldfishing bad fish decks don't help you) even more than Drains because it really lets you get a feel for how to play the deck in bad situations. The last thing you need is to find yourself against a Fish deck in a terrible situation with only 1 complicated out and not know what that out is because you didn't test enough. I know some people just try to push their deck in to a goldfish with sideboarded Cabal Rituals and only a few sweepers but in my opinion that can be very dangerous if you can't race their hate or deal with bigger guys.

The TPS sideboard almost always feels like it is too small to fit all the bombs you want to (I usually have no problem finding a balanced 15 cards for other decks) so if possible try to get to know your metagame very well.

[Ruven]

thanks, that already helped a lot.

one additional question: When you're up against a UR Stutter variant (dunno if you have them where you play, but it sorta started being more popular here), would you consider boarding needles against gorilla shamans? Reason being, that you can't bounce Rod EoT before you go off the get access to your artifact acceleration like vs other Fish variants, but that the Monkey actually destroys the Moxes, Lotus etc.

Or do you just wait to play said Moxen until you can go off or really need the mana?

my SB against fish is for the time being is: 2 Basics, 1 Massacre, 1 Infest, 1 Chain. I'm thinking about Echoing Truth since I can also play that vs. Icho and if Mage already names Chain, but I dunno if that's a good plan.