TPS players

[JarofFortune]

I don't think so. I think storm is poorly placed in a format with so many powerful 1 mana counterspells, loads of spheres and a ton of efficient weenies that encourage aggro control.

So i think it is properly estimated, and not underestimated

But doesn't Reid Duke's run at Vintage Champs (With an outdated list, no less) and the fact that every once in a while, some devoted players place in a top 8 with TPS prove that with a bit of luck and a lot of skill storm can be successful? This meta is certainly hostile, I will agree, but it appears that if you play Storm nearly flawlessly and get a bit of luck you can be successful with the deck. You just have to know your deck inside and out, tune it to your metagame, and avoid misplaying. Easier said than done, I know, but there is nothing to suggest that storm is unplayable. It is just unforgiving of mistakes in this format.   

[John Cox]

The burning long lists did OK earlier this year (well last year). I think those lists are better than a TPS approach. I also think they're more proof of how (or how not) viable storm is.

[Soly]

I split a  ~50 person event at Gencon with Doomsday, and top 16ed the ~90 person event at Gencon with Burning Oath,  and took 23rd at Vintage Champs with Doomsday;  So I wouldn't argue that Storm ITSELF is not strong right now;  I'd just argue that storm as a straight deck is not well positioned.

[zeus-online]

.

[personalbackfire]

I don't think so. I think storm is poorly placed in a format with so many powerful 1 mana counterspells, loads of spheres and a ton of efficient weenies that encourage aggro control.

So i think it is properly estimated, and not underestimated

But doesn't Reid Duke's run at Vintage Champs (With an outdated list, no less) and the fact that every once in a while, some devoted players place in a top 8 with TPS prove that with a bit of luck and a lot of skill storm can be successful? This meta is certainly hostile, I will agree, but it appears that if you play Storm nearly flawlessly and get a bit of luck you can be successful with the deck. You just have to know your deck inside and out, tune it to your metagame, and avoid misplaying. Easier said than done, I know, but there is nothing to suggest that storm is unplayable. It is just unforgiving of mistakes in this format.   

I never claimed it to be unplayable, i merely said that i felt it was poorly placed. Also, didn't Duke Reid dodge workshop decks all day?

I believe he played against it once and won.

[Eastman]

As shop pilots are shifting more to combo/aggro ala forgemaster and affinity,  they are opening up more to storm as well.  I think that has already occured sufficiently to make storm a better play. 

Control pilots tend to be running less permission as well--trading it out for removal to deal with the various on-the-board threats everyone seems to be running.   That also opens up more opportunity for tps.   

Overall,  I think the deck is better positioned as against the present meta than it has been in the metas of the last few years. 

[JarofFortune]

As shop pilots are shifting more to combo/aggro ala forgemaster and affinity,  they are opening up more to storm as well.  I think that has already occured sufficiently to make storm a better play. 

Control pilots tend to be running less permission as well--trading it out for removal to deal with the various on-the-board threats everyone seems to be running.   That also opens up more opportunity for tps.   

Overall,  I think the deck is better positioned as against the present meta than it has been in the metas of the last few years. 

 Its interesting, it appears Vintage might be entering a cyclical metagame like legacy.

[failtofind]

So I just won a mox with a combo deck that doesn't run force.

[zeus-online]

.

[Soly]

So I just won a mox with a combo deck that doesn't run force.

How close was it to the list I posted?  The list others posted?

[failtofind]

It was a lot like Reid dukes list...lol it seems bad but I just keep winning with it,  I only started playing it to prove to myself it was bad..but that hasn't worked out yet.

[Soly]

It was a lot like Reid dukes list...lol it seems bad but I just keep winning with it,  I only started playing it to prove to myself it was bad..but that hasn't worked out yet.

That's always the best.  I love me some Gitaxian Probe!

[mmcgeach]

1 Ad Nauseam
...
3 Manamorphose

So how are these working out?  Of the three unusual inclusions, I think I understand epic experiment the most.  But I'd like to hear about manamorphose.  Just kind of eyeballing the list, Ad Nauseam seems like it won't draw a ton of cards.  It seems like in this list, there must be some subtlety to using it effectively.

[Soly]

1 Ad Nauseam
...
3 Manamorphose

So how are these working out?  Of the three unusual inclusions, I think I understand epic experiment the most.  But I'd like to hear about manamorphose.  Just kind of eyeballing the list, Ad Nauseam seems like it won't draw a ton of cards.  It seems like in this list, there must be some subtlety to using it effectively.

I really like Ad Naseam for the Instant Speed.   It really is effective.
Manamorphose is just because I am greedy and like Drawing cards.

Epic Experiment was for the LOLz, but it ended up being a pretty good 1of sink.

[msg67183]

An off topic question , since I don't know much about Storm decks; why isn't ANT played anymore? Is it because of the printing of Flusterstorm? Wouldn't it make sense to play Flusterstorm IN the Storm based deck to combat counters from the opponent? I put a potential ANT list together that I think could work in the current meta game:

Bad Nauseam:

4 Polluted Delta
2 Island
2 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
Tolarian Academy
Black Lotus
Mox Sapphire
Mox Jet
Mana Crypt
Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
Mana Vault
Sol Ring
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual

30 mana

3 Ad Nauseam
4 Preordain
Ponder
Ancestral Recall
Brainstorm
Mystical Tutor
Demonic Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Yawgmoth's Will
Demonic Consultation

15 dig

4 Duress
4 Flusterstorm

8 protection

4 Chain of Vapor

4 storm enabler

3 Tendrils of Agony

3 kill

Sideboard:

1 Island
4 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Steel Sabotage
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Slaughter Pact

I took out Imperial Seal since it is essentially a bad Vamp Tutor. I also took Necro out, which is probably a mistake, but I removed it because it doesn't seem very potent since it requires to pass the turn, and can be blown up before you receive the cards. Abrupt Decay is pretty bad against this deck, I don't want to give it a Bomb to kill!
The board is essentially just to beat Workshops, which is fairly self explanatory.

I know this list doesn't belong in this thread and I apologize, I just wanted to bring this up since you mentioned Ad Nauseam in TPS.

[Hrishi]

If TPS is facing a harsh environment in the current metagame, wouldn't ANT be worse? That might be the reason why.

[d8dk32]

I also took Necro out, which is probably a mistake, but I removed it because it doesn't seem very potent since it requires to pass the turn, and can be blown up before you receive the cards. Abrupt Decay is pretty bad against this deck, I don't want to give it a Bomb to kill!

I believe you will still get the cards even if Necro is destroyed.

[WhiteLotus]

If TPS is facing a harsh environment in the current metagame, wouldn't ANT be worse? That might be the reason why.

Yeah, and "TPS" usually has the tinker bot as a backup plan and has plenty of storm enablers that aren't weakened if the life loss becomes relevant (draw 7s, gifts). ANT relies only on its life points to feed its engines (Necropotence, Ad Nauseam) and can't win another way asides from a Tendrils kill, it seems like a very all-in and fragile combo deck. There's just to much hate nowadays to be playing a dedicated Storm-Combo deck, although the metagame looks like it might be shifting in favor of it coming back.

As Soly suggested, Burning Oath or Doomsday are probably what you want to be playing. I'm not familiar with the doomsday lists, but I've been playing burning long (Oath) a bit.
The oath lists can do so many things that your opponent will have a hard time hating you out of the game, and while they may cut you off the Tendrils kill, you can always use oath or Show and tell to get your Griselbrand into play and attack, or go for the maniac plan after sideboarding.

[Soly]

As Soly suggested, Burning Oath or Doomsday are probably what you want to be playing. I'm not familiar with the doomsday lists, but I've been playing burning long (Oath) a bit.
The oath lists can do so many things that your opponent will have a hard time hating you out of the game, and while they may cut you off the Tendrils kill, you can always use oath or Show and tell to get your Griselbrand into play and attack, or go for the maniac plan after sideboarding.

 I think the Pitch version is very well positioned right now.

[Tammit67]

I think the Pitch version is very well positioned right now.

Care to elaborate on why? I'm incredibly dense.

[WhiteLotus]

I think the Pitch version is very well positioned right now.

Care to elaborate on why? I'm incredibly dense.

Because the high level of creatures are pushing the metagame. Shops aren't usually running the full complement of spheres anymore and are going more and more either for the Aggro approach or the combo approach. Drain decks are kinda in a bad shape right now, the creature rise had pushed them to run less permission for removal.
So, the pitch version can "compete" in counterwars and has more ways of dealing with stuff like Abrupt decay or grafdigger's cage (Misdirection, Mental misstep). It is also very resilient against Workshops, and it can Fow on the draw. It also helps that people are ill prepared to deal with it right now.

[Tammit67]

Because the high level of creatures are pushing the metagame. Shops aren't usually running the full complement of spheres anymore and are going more and more either for the Aggro approach or the combo approach. Drain decks are kinda in a bad shape right now, the creature rise had pushed them to run less permission for removal.
So, the pitch version can "compete" in counterwars and has more ways of dealing with stuff like Abrupt decay or grafdigger's cage (Misdirection, Mental misstep). It is also very resilient against Workshops, and it can Fow on the draw. It also helps that people are ill prepared to deal with it right now.

I'm kinda seeing that, but what I am also seeing is the removal that used to be in board has replaced some of the old permission main. And since the permission that was main is now in board, they are running generic removal but specific hate out of the board.

As in... You originally had spell pierce main. Now that slot is lightning bolts (or swords or combo pieces). The pierces that were in board now only really come in in certain matchups so instead they are being cut for a narrower, more powerful-when-applicable card in flusterstorm or Mindbreak trap.

Maybe it is just my proximity to MVP games, but I am still seeing a number of drain decks: Bomberman, landstill, blue angels, Grixis, Fenton Oath. Most of them board into additional things that need to be removed before I can safely combo.

...Or not and I'm just living in outlier world

[WhiteLotus]

You originally had spell pierce main. Now that slot is lightning bolts (or swords or combo pieces). The pierces that were in board now only really come in in certain matchups so instead they are being cut for a narrower, more powerful-when-applicable card in flusterstorm or Mindbreak trap.

Mindbreak Trap isn't that scary since you can Fow it, and if you feel your opponent is holding on to Flusterstorm you can always Burning Wish>Thoughtseize them, or just ignore it by generating a ton of mana.
But anyway I don't think this is the thread to talk about that deck.

[mmcgeach]

...I am still seeing a number of drain decks: Bomberman, landstill, blue angels, Grixis, Fenton Oath. Most of them board into additional things that need to be removed before I can safely combo.

I have the same experience in the NE metagame to some extent...  decks with enough free counters (trap, misstep, force) and some good non-free ones (drain, flusterstorm) are hard to beat; however, some testing with the Reid Duke-style gitaxian probe lists here makes me think the matchup isn't that bad for this deck.  The probes seem to offset an opponent's missteps, since now there's enough probes + duresses to overwhelm the missteps: you'll be able to see the control player's hand.  The probes also speed up the deck slightly, making it easier to go off before the control player gets up drain mana.  I've been pretty impressed with how probe helps go off faster: there's the minor deck thinning effect; the synergy with top-deck tutors; the free storm; its fantastic with Yawgmoth's Will.  It really does a lot for TPS, more than I would have realized w/o testing.

Post-board, having REB / pyroblast in the board helps to fight counters too; and other players have had success with defense grid in the board instead. ( I have kind of mixed feelings about defense grid... Some of the problems with Defense Grid are : 1) its slows you down, 2) allows an opposing combo/control deck to play the combo role instead of the control role, 3) and that it turns on an opponent's removal like ancient grudge / abrupt decay.  I think a lot of that is mitigated if you just bring it in game 2 against people that may side out their abrupt decays and aren't going to combo you out - e.g., don't use it against gush decks.  On the other hand, defense grid makes giving your opponent 7 new cards with each wheel effect much safer, and its basically the only card that lets you fight through a mystic remora. )

[Soly]

The Oath of Druids gives you a real solid way to break through Mindbreak Trap / Mental Mistep / Flusterstorm.  Realistically, decks that have a bunch of counterspells have very few ways to actually deal with the Enchantment.  And honestly, in most games where my opponents play so many counterspells, I am able to come up with scenarios where their counterspells end up adding to storm count only;  it's a matter of sequencing your spells in a way where they counter what they think is a pivotal card, but in reality is the weakest card(s).

[Tammit67]

The Oath of Druids gives you a real solid way to break through Mindbreak Trap / Mental Mistep / Flusterstorm.  Realistically, decks that have a bunch of counterspells have very few ways to actually deal with the Enchantment.  And honestly, in most games where my opponents play so many counterspells, I am able to come up with scenarios where their counterspells end up adding to storm count only;  it's a matter of sequencing your spells in a way where they counter what they think is a pivotal card, but in reality is the weakest card(s).

I am no stranger to sequencing from weakest to strongest (barring I can't cast a different bomb if the wheel of fortune resolves first so I better cast the wheel second despite being the 'weaker' engine).

It seems sometime between then and now there is a disconnect in my mind. You mentioned specifically that

"I think the Pitch version is very well positioned right now."

But then you bring up Oath of Druids as a solution to my concerns. Does this pitch version refer to a burning oath list, a list drastically different from the Reid Duke list I was previously commenting on?

[Soly]

But then you bring up Oath of Druids as a solution to my concerns. Does this pitch version refer to a burning oath list, a list drastically different from the Reid Duke list I was previously commenting on?

My Pitch comment was in response to someone bringing up Burning Oath.  I think it's well positioned because it has ways to protect the Oaths *OR* win easily without the green enchantment.

[WhiteLotus]

It seems a lot of people had largely underestimated (Myself included) Reid Duke's List. After seeing it in multiple top 8s though, I goldfished a bit with it and was really suprised, Gitaxian probe really is a strong card.
I don't get why people don't play Burning Wish along with it Though?
So I've attempted something different, taking the list I posted on the previous page as a starting point:

Mana base:
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Opal
4 Dark Ritual
3 City of Brass
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy

Combo Enablers:
1 Memory Jar
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Timetwister
1 Windfall
1 Mind's Desire

Tutoring:
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Burning Wish
1 Tinker

Protection:
4 Force of Will
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Flusterstorm
1 Chain of Vapor
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Duress

"Other":
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk

Burning Wish targets:
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Shattering Spree
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Thoughtseize

Actual Sideboard:
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Mountain
SB: 1 Rebuild
SB: 1 Island
SB: 3 Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Blightsteel Colossus


Classic Combo 28 mana base. 12 artifact mana with an Opal that seemed like the strongest choice in comparison to Simian spirit guide, Cabal ritual and Chrome mox.
12 lands including 2 basics for Wasteland resiliency; and of course 4 Rituals.

Strongest Combo enablers available. Not much to say here except that it feels a bit threat light, forcing a bit on the mulligan sometimes. The lack of Cantrips is also pretty hurtful sometimes (although the probes are a nice substitution).

So far the disruption package is working out nicely, a tutorable Flusterstorm for the control Match up, 2 Artifact board-bounces, Chain for random creature or enchantment hate, 4 all star Force of wills, 5 Opponent read with 3 probes and 2 duresses (+ 4 with Thoughtseize through Burning Wish).
The two duresses look like they want to be the 4th probe and one more combo enabler, Fact perhaps?

The Burning Wish targets are pretty much exactly the same than in Burning Oath, although Toxic Deluge would probably be a nice input since the deck doesn't have Griselbrand.

The rest of the sideboard is pretty much dedicated to the shop Matchup: 4 1 for 1 removal with 3 chewers and spree, 2 more bounces with Hurkyl's and Rebuild (mainly to fight Chalice at 2).
The two lands are there to help fight Mana denial in a number of match ups (Null rod, Wasteland, Spheres...)
There also is Blightsteel as an alternate win condition if they just have to much hate.
Finally, a second Flusterstorm for the blue matchups.

The goal of this deck is to run a "heavy" Protection/Disruption package without loosing too much speed or consistency. In a way it's sort of an Hybrid between Long and TPS, attempting to take the best of both worlds (speed, consistency, resiliency) without the bad sides (Fold to hate, hand sculpting dependent).

I'd definetly like some input on this, any thoughts from experienced Storm pilots ?

[Soly]

Not saying this specifically about your list WhiteLotus (because I am at work and can't dig into it with good detail); but I feel like most people tend to take a storm deck, and just decide quickly that there's too many lands, or too few artifact mana sources, or there should be Force of Will/Mistep/Misdirection etc, without really having a fundamental understanding of how the decks work.

I would *NEVER* play Burning Wish in a storm deck without 5 color lands.  The reason for this is having basic lands makes it very difficult to actually cast all your colored spells.   I want to be able to rely on my lands to cast burning wish, but also be able to cast Dark Ritual, Brainstorm, Mystical tutor, etc in the subsequent turn(s).

Also, in just glancing at your list, I would say that Burning Wish is very awkward.  I think your list would be much stronger by just having the Tendrils of Agony in the maindeck as a 2x, and playing Grim Tutor and maybe even Lim-Dul's vault

tl;dr:  You're trying to be too much like Burning Long, when you should be more like The Perfect Storm.

[WhiteLotus]

Not saying this specifically about your list WhiteLotus (because I am at work and can't dig into it with good detail); but I feel like most people tend to take a storm deck, and just decide quickly that there's too many lands, or too few artifact mana sources, or there should be Force of Will/Mistep/Misdirection etc, without really having a fundamental understanding of how the decks work.

I would *NEVER* play Burning Wish in a storm deck without 5 color lands.  The reason for this is having basic lands makes it very difficult to actually cast all your colored spells.   I want to be able to rely on my lands to cast burning wish, but also be able to cast Dark Ritual, Brainstorm, Mystical tutor, etc in the subsequent turn(s).

Also, in just glancing at your list, I would say that Burning Wish is very awkward.  I think your list would be much stronger by just having the Tendrils of Agony in the maindeck as a 2x, and playing Grim Tutor and maybe even Lim-Dul's vault

tl;dr:  You're trying to be too much like Burning Long, when you should be more like The Perfect Storm.

I have to admit burning wish isn't really what I expected it to be in that deck, it's harder to set up Yawgmoth's will when you need to find a second wish for the tendrils.

At that point we're back to Reid duke's shell with force of wills instead of duress. I'm curious why you think Fow is necessarily a bad thing in "traditional"(Non-Oath) combo, pitch Long and Tps use to play them and that was before Shops were so scary when they're on the play.