Ubastax parties like its 2005 at chicago side event 3-8-09

[mutedequilibrium]

You guys should get over this notion that they are doing us a favor.  If you are unhappy with your TO, run your own events.  If there's a player base, get them to come play with you.  There's no reason to settle for being treated like garbage by your TO.

They are absolutely doing us a favor. A lot of time and effort goes into running a big tournament. All you have to do is show up and play and have fun. And if you do well, you'll be rewarded.

Although I totally agree with you, that if people have a problem with the way he runs events, they should run their own.

Of course a lot of time goes into it. It's called a 'service.' That's like saying a banker is doing us a favour by managing our money for us, or the chef is doing us a favour for making some food for us. Self interest, in the form of making money, is the driving force. Not the goodness of making a bunch of Type 1 guys happy by offering up a tournament they can play in.

A service for money is never a favour, regardless of how much a person appreciates it. The best businessmen are the ones that get you to thank them for taking your money.

[benthetenor]

I applaud Alan for taking the time to explain his position on this message board, as it seems like people sometimes forgot that stores stay open and stay successful because the owner treats it like a business.

If this guy only pays out 10% of the door, but it keeps his store open and keeps running events, we should be more than happy. He should take as much money off the top as he needs to keep his store running and to live a comfortable life and support his family. Who are we to criticize him for that?

I think we already went over this one. He can do whatever he wants, but if someone else can run a tournament better (more prize support) for the same amount of money or even for cheaper, then that is the person who is going to get my business. The only reason you can even attempt to make this argument is because there isn't enough competition out there. That surely isn't Alan's fault, but it doesn't validate that argument.

Mutedequilibrium is absolutely right. Alan doesn't need our "thanks". We are expressing our appreciation for him running the tournament by paying him to do so. If he's looking for a "thanks" while he does a poor job running the tournament, then it's not very likely that he's going to get it.

[never]

Of course a lot of time goes into it. It's called a 'service.' That's like saying a banker is doing us a favour by managing our money for us, or the chef is doing us a favour for making some food for us. Self interest, in the form of making money, is the driving force. Not the goodness of making a bunch of Type 1 guys happy by offering up a tournament they can play in.

A service for money is never a favour, regardless of how much a person appreciates it. The best businessmen are the ones that get you to thank them for taking your money.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, since I'm not sure what past statements you do and don't agree with, but if we are OK with this simply being a service/business then shouldn't we also be OK with attending the event without prizes? Isn't our attendance in the event taking part in his service and thus worth the price of entry alone?

Yet we've come to the point where not only do we expect prizes, but we expect an abundance of them, and we complain and throw racial and personal insults when we don't get enough of them. Isn't that a childish way to look at things?

[never]

Mutedequilibrium is absolutely right. Alan doesn't need our "thanks". We are expressing our appreciation for him running the tournament by paying him to do so. If he's looking for a "thanks" while he does a poor job running the tournament, then it's not very likely that he's going to get it.

I'm still confused as to why he did a poor job? Is it just because of the 5-8 prizes? Are we really labeling the tournament as poorly run because there weren't enough prizes for your liking?

[mutedequilibrium]

...but if we are OK with this simply being a service/business then shouldn't we also be OK with attending the event without prizes? Isn't our attendance in the event taking part in his service and thus worth the price of entry alone?

No. Just because it's a service/business, doesn't mean it's a very well run service/business. It doesn't mean it's a service/business that's worth our time or money. If you went to a restaurant that gave you decent food and all your friends went there, but it was expensive and the service sucked, yeah, you might continue to go there if it was the only restaurant around. However, if you all found another restaurant that gave you better food, lower prices and excellent service, why wouldn't you all move to the other restaurant? You absolutely would. It's not that we're spoiled. It's that the best business is getting our patronage. Natural Selection, in the business world.

Yet we've come to the point where not only do we expect prizes, but we expect an abundance of them, and we complain and throw racial and personal insults when we don't get enough of them. Isn't that a childish way to look at things?

Of course we expect prizes. We go to the tournaments that give us the best return for our time and money. That's business and economics at it's basest level. The issue was not with the amount of prizes offered. It was that 80+ people showed up to his tournament, and he kept the prize structure the same [if I read everything correctly]. If that many people showed up to a tournament that I was running, I'd throw some better prizes in to thank my attendees. Yes, thank them. Businesses do this all the time. I cannot count how many free drinks from Starbucks or burritos from Chipotle I've been given for being a regular, in the past. Yes, it made me come back. The $6.03 Chipotle gave up for that free burrito pales in comparison to all the times I came back and paid for my food. It's buying customer loyalty. Imagine how stoked the players would have been to go to the next Past Times tournament if Alan had said, "I want to thank you all for giving this tournament such a great turnout. The prize structure has been upgraded as the following..." The funny thing is, even if he hadn't upgraded the prize structure that much, most would have been thankful for those few words and the gesture.

Also, it's obvious that Vroman's statement wasn't intentionally racist. Throwing insults is clearly a poor way to express dissatisfaction, but many did approach the situation the way they [Shockwave, etc] should have: telling him to explain himself.

I'm still confused as to why he did a poor job? Is it just because of the 5-8 prizes? Are we really labeling the tournament as poorly run because there weren't enough prizes for your liking?

Because he very likely could have given out more. When he came on, he blew any chance of disarming the situation [and having some return customers] by entertaining each insult and jab at his business with a sassy response of his own. His explanations almost would have been enough, minus the 'I need to feed my kids' stuff that no one cares about. Nor should they. It was totally irrelevant. He could have easily shut everyone up on the spot by laying out the various expenses he had to incur to run the entire thing, so that people could better understand that he wasn't just keeping half the prize money for himself.

He chose not to do that, and he'll find out if it makes a big enough difference in the future whether that was the right move. It's absolutely his right as a business owner to choose to run his business however he wants. Just as it's our right as a customer to evaluate if giving that business our money is worth it.

[benthetenor]

Mutedequilibrium is absolutely right. Alan doesn't need our "thanks". We are expressing our appreciation for him running the tournament by paying him to do so. If he's looking for a "thanks" while he does a poor job running the tournament, then it's not very likely that he's going to get it.

I'm still confused as to why he did a poor job? Is it just because of the 5-8 prizes? Are we really labeling the tournament as poorly run because there weren't enough prizes for your liking?

The standard prize for an event of this size has been somewhere in the neighborhood of a full set of power drafted by the top 8. But rather than just that as being evidence of the event being run more poorly than normal, there exists the tournament structure which was terrible. Swiss +1 is the worst, because it adds more luck into the outcome. Those two pieces of evidence lead me to believe that the tournament could have been run better.

[never]

I understand everything you're both saying, even if I don't agree with all of it.

I do hope that next time both Alan and the people attending his event can work out something that pleases everyone.

[iamfishman]

Pastimes is hosting vintage champs.

I wonder how many people will hold true to their decision stated in this thread not to attend Pasttime events and skip this.  My guess is few will.

[benthetenor]

Pastimes is hosting vintage champs.

I wonder how many people will hold true to their decision stated in this thread not to attend Pasttime events and skip this.  My guess is few will.

I guess we'll see. Champs hasn't been worth going to for a few years, anyway. The first year I went, there were Foil Gemstone Mines down to T16 and tons of boosters. Last time, it was basically first or nothing. What we will have to see is if Pastimes is taking our criticism.

And most of the people who have spoken about boycotting Pastimes do so for economic reasons. If Pastimes listens and offers more economic incentive, then the boycott will have worked and there would be no reason to keep boycotting. But I can assure you, Vroman, myself, anyone from the Vintage scene in St. Louis will not be going to another tournament that doesn't make economic sense.

[Nomad]

Pastimes is hosting vintage champs.

I wonder how many people will hold true to their decision stated in this thread not to attend Pasttime events and skip this.  My guess is few will.

I guess we'll see. Champs hasn't been worth going to for a few years, anyway. The first year I went, there were Foil Gemstone Mines down to T16 and tons of boosters. Last time, it was basically first or nothing. What we will have to see is if Pastimes is taking our criticism.

And most of the people who have spoken about boycotting Pastimes do so for economic reasons. If Pastimes listens and offers more economic incentive, then the boycott will have worked and there would be no reason to keep boycotting. But I can assure you, Vroman, myself, anyone from the Vintage scene in St. Louis will not be going to another tournament that doesn't make economic sense.

Pastimes seem one of the worst abusers of the stranglehold Premier Tournament Organisers have on various regions, glad I don't live in the midwest.
- Their tournaments never take credit cards (all Gray Matter - NY, NJ, PA ones do, for example)
- GenCon is usually dismal for organised play these days (but strangely awesome for trade hall bargains and general community)
- Everyone bitches about them afterwards

And from my recollection only top 8 got foil Gemstones.  I bought one off a guy who got it after blowing my chance at top 16 (and not top 8) in the final round.  Those would have been provided to them free of charge by Wizards anyway.

Dredging a little, note how there's comments that Pastimes "value Guru swamps about $30"  which means "we'd never pay more than $15 for Guru swamps".  The 40-50% payout in cash terms is more like 25-30%...

[Almighty]

Pastimes is hosting vintage champs.

I wonder how many people will hold true to their decision stated in this thread not to attend Pasttime events and skip this.  My guess is few will.

The painting is 95% of the prize support. Pastimes needs offer very little beyond this and people will still go.

They'd gain a lot of face if they bumped prize support signifigantly, though.

[oneofchaos]

I understand everything you're both saying, even if I don't agree with all of it.

I do hope that next time both Alan and the people attending his event can work out something that pleases everyone.

It's his choice on trying to be reasonable.  I told this story to type 2 player friends of mine, and they said they'd try to help out by not attending his events.  They said they would tell their friends.
I am so glad I did not play in the event, TO's mooching a dry player base has always been wrong. 

[benthetenor]

And from my recollection only top 8 got foil Gemstones.  I bought one off a guy who got it after blowing my chance at top 16 (and not top 8) in the final round.  Those would have been provided to them free of charge by Wizards anyway.

No sir. I got 13th, and was awarded a Foil Gemstone. But that's a minor point.

[John Jones]

This is a blatant flame, completely unacceptable.  Referred to the administrator for action.  -Eastman

Demoted to Restricted Posting.  -DA

[Razvan]

I have always wondered why Gencon bothers to put the massive painting up for first? The prizes always seem to be rather weak for a sanctioned (as far as I know) event of that size. If it really is 95% of the prize as someone mentioned, then wouldn't just give cards (power, more packs, etc), make it much better?

Anyway, it's just me needlessly bitching. I still support it, even if only because there's a dearth of T1 tournaments lately (luckily Untouchables still rocks!), and Ray's shindig is too bloody far.

[JudasKilled]

Answer:  What’s “fair.”  First, please understand what I do for a living… I run events and I sell games.  That is how I pay for my kids to eat and how I pay to put a roof over my family’s head.  That is what I do.  Every week we risk paying for rent, prizes and employees with the hopes to turn a profit so my employees can keep their jobs and I can keep my store.  Sometimes we win… sometimes we lose.   In this forum you guys are deciding what is “fair” for me to make from this event.  In my opinion we gave away about $1100-$1300 in cards (Beta Sapphire, Grim Tutor, a couple Foil Polluted Deltas (I think) and 4 Guru Lands .  If only 15 of you had shown up, would you have been “ok” if I had said, “well – we didn’t get enough people to justify giving away the Beta Sapphire, so here is a Library and a Mana Drain instead.”  I don’t think that would have sat well with you.

I think it would sit perfectly well if you said beta sapp if 25+ ppl etc, we dont care if its how you feed your kids, we spent our money 2 play thats how we feed us, and in some cases our kids.  So no mater how defensively spin this the bottom line is your prize payout was utter trash.  Thats the bottomline.  And you acnt say u expected 12 ppl at a gp event with 1k ppl + so point not taken.

And please consider a couple of other expenses that a store or organizer has when putting on an event…  - the venue and the staff.  There were three judges for this event (not counting the scorekeeper as he was doing other events as well).  The venue was hugely expensive – and yes, there was a big GP to pay for that – but we did not know how many would be there for the GP and we have to count all the events towards the bottom line.  You can also throw in the fact that the Vintage event, as part of the overall event, also cost me for: insurance, clean-up, tables, chairs, P/A and security.  Those were all costs that I incurred when running this event.  And we take all the events income towards those costs. 

Yes you run a bussiness you have overhead costs that you know very well what they are after years of running events and effectively cornerign the dealer market in almost every aspect.  So....obviously you make money, alot of money doing it or you would be doing something else. otta feed those kiddies.

I also strongly believe that the majority of what we provide is entertainment.  If you are not playing Magic for fun… you really are in the wrong thing…. 
( You dont play magic, you dont run magic events or anything involving them for fun.......you do it for ....$$$$$$$$$$$)

So, my guess is that about half of the people reading this or more have gone to see Watchmen (what did you think? Me, about 2 ½ stars).  I know that when I went, I paid $12 for my IMAX ticket and $9 for popcorn and a diet coke – (now you want to talk about unfair!)  So I dropped about $20 for a movie that barely entertained me for two hours.  There was no personal attention.  If I called “judge” during that movie I would have been thrown out!  I left with nothing but a memory from the movie and butter stains on my shirt.  But I knew going in it was a cost of entertainment.  I figured I deserved to take the standee in the lobby as a prize for being there – but silly me, they threatened to call the police!  It sounds to me like most folks had a really good time at the GP and at the Vintage tournament – which is my goal.  Handing out over a thousand dollars of prize seemed like a fun extra!

LOL really? thats the best you got? You are not the spin doctor from "Thank you for smoking" thats for sure.  People play magic for fun, you dont play tournaments just for fun otherwise you would go sit there and play type 4.  You play for pride, competativeness and whats that other thing that get all those players showign up especially in vintage....ohhhh ya prize pool.

I know that a lot of stores run events and give back everything in prizes.  I have three comments about that:  1. Look at how many stores have gone out of business in the past 10 years for not worrying about their bottom line.  (Pastimes is now in its 18th year) 2. They are not worried about making money on their event (foolish) , they are just hoping you will buy cards, candy or whatever.  I hope this works for them – it is not my model. 3. When those stores go out of business, you lose places to play.  Support them, they need you and you need them!

That I will give you games are a rough bussiness. I think every player understands that.  I dont think anyone expects a 100% prize payout or even 90 or 80, but 40% is dismal.....period.

As far as handing everything back in prizes, I can’t afford to do this.  You all want events – even big events?  You need organizers who are willing to take a risk and who will put up prizes (umm… there was a Beta Mox Sapphire guaranteed here) and have certified judges etc…  Sometimes we make money on our events, sometime we do not.  (Someone said we made 60% from this event - it actually comes out to about 15-20%)  I look at our event income at the end of the year and hope it is in the black – so that next year I can be back and seeing you at even more fun events!

Personaly thinki your math isnt adding up ato well, but hey as you say


Okay – I am almost off my soapbox, and I know I did not answer every comment from this thread.  But please read a couple more things:



And while I am not saying that people should not air their feelings on public boards – maybe you want to take a breath and contact the person you are going to accuse in advance of that and see what they have to say.   Maybe there is a good reason it happened and then you don’t have to post.  Maybe you still disagree in which case you can always post afterwards.

America the land of free and public speech with no repercussion ( long as not directly harrasing at least), so folks I say ssay what you want.

[Drummer79]

I wasn't going to post, but after reading the whole thread, I will.

My name is John Donovan, I have hosted and ran MANY successful vintage events in the Chicago area, including as the TO for the last major P9 Weekend in Chicago ran concurrently with Star City Games.  I want everyone to know who I am, and that I am talking with a relevant amount of experience here.

First, as for the comments about the staff...  Remember that decisions that a staff make are usually in the sake of time.  If you weren't signed up for an event on time, you and your friend deserve to play each other for not doing your part as a player ahead of time.  
       At the same time, there was an instance that involved a close friend of mine who was not allowed to play in the extended side event because he missed registration.  The event was the previously mentioned side that was severely delayed in start time, and they weren't allowing preregistration.  We were told by the people at the desk that they would ANNOUNCE sign-ups, which never happened.  So it was quite a shock to find out that not only had registration closed, but the event was already starting.  We were VERY frustrated, and brought it to the sign up area, but received NO help.  Was it our responsibility to walk up every 5 minutes and ask when we were told that the event sign up would be announced?   I don't think so...  Either way, I can understand your frustration, but in the end, in our case, it was just plain lack of attention by the staff in this situation.  In the previous situation, the fact that you were allowed to play AT ALL is a bonus we didn't receive.

I am very good friends with two of the staff who work closely with Alan, and I can tell you that they run things right, but everyone makes mistakes, especially in a weekend as hectic and insane as the Grand Prix was.  That being said, the frustration is with the situation, not the individual.  Insulting a staff member on a public forum is not acceptable.  What you say on your own time is one thing, but the moment you post it on a forum, it's going too far.   I get frustrated at one of the local TO's from time to time, but I let it go as understand that it's not easy running events.  You can't please everyone.  You have to make the decisions that benefit the majority, not the few.  Should they have added my friend?   Probably... He just wanted to play, and the round had JUST been paired when he went and talked and found out.  It wouldn't have been hard to add him with a round 1 loss so he could have at least played.  In the case where two people went to register late...  The staff did exactly what I would have done.  No way am I going to make 81 other people suffer for your inability to register on time, when the announcement was made, and there was no delay in the event as there was in the extended side I am referring to.  

Now, for the 800lb Gorilla...

Prize Support....

Ok, let me start with this.  I have been attending Alan's events for a long time.  I will continue to support a majority of Alan's events.  He is a PTO, he keeps majors events coming to Chicago, and I have to travel a lot less thanks to his presence.  

That being said...  I have to say that the support in this event was less than stellar.

$2025 Entry Fee
1100 - 1300 Prize Support...  (closer to 1100)

Ok, so, now that we are all being honest about card prices  (I sold a MT/NM Beta Sapphire for 900, so 1100 is not unreasonable) we can talk percentages.

In no case should a TO every give 100% back.  Even as a store owner who lives on singles.  A few things to remember here...

1. The TO's time is worth Money
2. The Judge's Time is worth Money
3. The Venue cost's money (even in a store, lighting, that comfortable heat/ac all cost money!!)
4. The "agreed upon" prices of cards will always vary.

That said, I believe that even up to 30% is acceptable based on the circumstance  (i.e. the high cost of a GP venue).  In this case, that comes out to about 1400...   Look at fair market value, would we be having this conversation of the 5-8 was a decent condition Underground Sea?  Probably not.  But I will say that for top 8'ing an event with 80+ players, 5-8 should get double their entry fee in prize more often than not.  (thus the ex+ Underground Sea).  I believe that they could have paid more at this event.   In any other circumstance, depending on the use and payment of a judge or not, I would say 20 to 25% is MORE than fair.    To put that in to dollars, you give $5 out of a $25 entry fee for the staff and facility, and the rest goes to prize.  I firmly believe that is more than acceptable.

I personally have only every guaranteed the first prize for any event, never the 2-X.  I always base the rest on attendance.  Ex, I had to cut the support a little short at the 2nd day of the p9, as the entry fee BARELY covered the cost of the power we were running the event with.  I only had 95 players.  Once I paid my staff, I was left with a whopping beat mox ruby I was able to buy from a friend with the profit and part of my personal money.  This was after expecting closer to 120, and giving me the room and ability to pay out Much better.

In the end, what I want people to remember is that we do in fact WORK at events.  And for that, we deserve something for our time, BUT I personally believe that there should be a lid on how much you take out of an event like vintage for profit.  45% is a touch much...  

[Demonic Attorney]

Alright, since becoming Administrator of this site, one of the issues I wanted to work on was freeing up more opportunities for people to have civil, adult conversations about disputes concerning tournament organization.  In the spirit of that policy, this thread was left alone despite the multiple rules violations that occurred in it.  People on both sides of the issue have had their say, the community learned from the tournament attendees' experiences, and we've all moved on.  Enough is enough. 

I will not let this issue continue to fester indefinitely and stay around to be resurrected every time someone else with an opinion to offer comes along.  It's over.  Closed.