Vintage White Weenie

[Kaiser von Hugal]

3 Aven Mindcensor - shuts down search lands and stops them from finding their answer
4 True Believer - anti-grindstone and tendrils, substitute for Canonist
4 Jotun Grunt - anti-Yawgmoths Will and feeds off Dredge ability, quick beats
3 Kataki, War's Wage - I went with Kataki over Canonist because it reinforces the mana denial theme
2 Kami of Ancient Law - I want 8 of these effects in the maindeck, Mystic Remora and Oath are tough match ups
2 Ronom Unicorn - see above
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda - quick beats
4 Icatian Javelineers - kills Bob and Welders
4 Savannah Lions - quick beats

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Null Rod

4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Lotus Petal - this helps for SB cards as well as getting a Unicorn or True Believer down early
4 Mutavault
1 Karakas
10 Plains

My concern with the Main deck is that the themes are too divergent - Im trying to guard against Combo and Oath. I could focus on mana denial and anti-storm and re-tool the SB to fight Mono Brown and Oath.

Other considerations for the MD were:
Children of Korlis - not a quick enough clock if I keep Javelineers in there as well which I feel is necessary
Seal of Cleansing - great card should probably be a 3-of in the MD but I can find beat sticks with similar abilities
Canonist - I struggled with this one - I feel Kataki is better for a WW deck
Samurai of the Pale Curtain - I went with Jotun Grunt, more decks use heavy non-permanents

Im thinking of splashing green mana for Ray of Revelation from the board

SB
2 Ronom Unicorns - oath
2 Kami of Ancient Law - oath
4 Dust to Dust - Can handle DSC
4 Honor the Fallen - Ichorid
3 Canonists - combo

As a side note, if I were to focus on anti-TPS Id go with:

4 Children of Korlis
4 Javelineers
4 Canonist
4 True Believer
4 Jotun Grunt
3 Aven Mindcensor
4 Ronom Unicorns

4 Null Rod
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Thorn of Amethyst

I didnt splash green for Goyf because I like Grunt better to fight the Yawg-win strategy.

[jaeppel]

if you are playing mono-white and have a large stack of plains, why not try some combination of landtax/tithe.  as it stands you will quickly empty your hand, and if that is not lethal weenies, you get to live off the topdeck, and savannah lions are just not going to save the day ripped turn five when you are already playing the long game.  scroll rack has no business here of you want to run monowhite with rod, so sadly the best tax combo is out.  as an alternative, you could cut the mutavaults for bazaars, and then karakas and 1-2 other things for more plains.  pare the creature base, at the moment they are 29 critters.  most of them have some disruptive ability, which is important if this deck is to go the distance and kill with 10x2-beats.

i would find 18-20 creatures and fill the other slots with some mixture of draw and control spells.  chant/abeyance are some of the most powerful effects in white.  played reactively, with canonist on the table these spells are usually absolute in removing the other player temporarily from the game.  the white timewalk, for those times that you would otherwise lose.

i think the route i would take with ww is something with armageddon, manatithe, tax/tithe, bazaar, diamonds, and balance.  mana tithe is something i always played 4 in standard white-weenie, its usually quite good, not as good as a blue spell, but then its not a blue spell and this is not a blue deck.  giving a white deck doing white things the power to forcespike?  i think this could be good, but due to the dominance of blue in everything ots one we never use.  the first one should always be a hard counter, because who fears untapped plains when they cast a bomb

[Wagner]

I think you should read Mystic Remora again.

[swawagon]

Figure of Destiny is arguably better than Savannah Lions/Isamaru throughout the course of a game. They can get huge and slip in before Mana Drain is online... Plus I think 7 Cats and Dogs already may be to many non-disruptive creatures...

I don't see why you wouldn't use Mishra's Factory over Mutavault?

Also Inkwell Leviathan is often the new Darksteel Colossus and although I love Swords to Plowshares and Dust to Dust, short of 3-4 Aven Mindsencor, you don't have an answer to Tinker/Inkwell Leviathan. Racing possibly, but that will be pretty tough.

I'd also consider splashing blue for Ninja of the Deep Hours and Time Walk, Ancestral Recall - even if you don't use blue for counterspells...

Or black for Duress, Thoughtseize, Diabolic Edict, Vindicate...

And Samurai of the Pale Curtain may be a better Sideboard Card than than Honor the Fallen as it shuts off Bridges and makes Ichorids one trick ponies. Although Honor the Fallen does remove Dredgers from graves... But Samurai also is useful against Stax stopping Welder tricks and Crucible of Worlds locks... Children of Korliss is fair against Ichorid too, saccing to remove Bridges.

4 Grunt seems like a lot, especially when you are not playing fetch lands (and why not?) yourself.

[mothlite]

Wouldn't it be better to run Path to Exile over StP, since Aven Mindcensor blocks off the PtE search effect?

[Kaiser von Hugal]

Thanks for the feedback!  Tinker/Inkwell will be an issue for sure.  Ive modified the list mostly due to the comment that ripping a lion off the top during the mid-game is, well, less than terrific.   I re-designed the creature base to be relevant throughout the game.  I decided to board against Oath with the MD focused on Combo.  I went with Suppression field over Chant/Abeyance because its a permanent and this deck has no real draw effect to consistently get to the Chant.

3 Tariff - I dropped the Ponies, this somewhat fills the niche - can kill Oath critters, Inkwell and DSC.  Just wish it was an instant.
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Suppression Field - supports Tariff, Aven, Kataki, Waste/strip and Null Rod - helps against Bazaar decks too.
4 Null Rod
4 Aven Mindcensor - theres four because he flies and can get through late game.
4 Jotun Grunt - even if he swings once or trades in the early game - Im ok with that.
3 Kataki, War's Wage
4 True Believer
4 Children of Korlis - he can act like a fog at times
4 Icatian Javelineers - I still dont like Bob or Welder, even though Suppression Field hurts a little

4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
14 Plains - no Windswept Heath due to Suppression field

I didnt say Tariff was a good answer but it is capable if dealing with super untargettable uberness.

SB
4 Disenchant - instant speed, gets around Suppression field
4 Honor the Fallen - Ichorid - of their SB tech is geared towards dealing with enchantments and artifacts
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain - Ichorid, Welder and decks where having 4 NR main deck is just bad.
3 Sacred Ground - Crucible and Stax (7/10 split even)

[nineisnoone]

I did a BW Null Field deck.  Splashing the 2nd color isn't really that bad.  And it gives you alot.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37397.0

Tariff + Path seems excessive.  Honestly, I prefer Swords even with the Mindcensor strategy because you won't always have an active Mindcensor when you want to Path.  Path without Mindcensor really gives them a huge out to your mana denial strategy.  Yes, Path can't hit Inkwell or Archangel, it's just not that important to dedicate the 3 Tariff's to the deck.  Inkwell is not a clear cut favorite and you will only see Archangel in game 2 if at all.

I would go for 2/2 split (at least) with Cannonists and Believers.  They don't have an additive effect in terms of impeding combo so there's really no reason not to run a mix.

The SB in general looks pretty bad.  There are just better cards for those match-ups. 

[Kaiser von Hugal]

I agree the SB needs some help - and also about STP being the better play - I edited the list to reflect that.   I think youre right about splitting True Believer up as well.

[never]

Adding black also lets you run Hide/Seek, which could help you out in a lot of match ups.

[Cyberpunker]

Good luck with this deck! I used to be an avid WW player myself. And so I think that Figure of Destiny would be awesome in your deck. Maybe atleast 2 in exchange for 1 Hond of Konda and 1 Savannah Lion. Who knows maybe you can get a 4/4 or an 8/8 even if the game becomes weird.

[the boogie man]

figure of destiny seems powerful, but it directly conflicts with suppression field.

[Kaiser von Hugal]

Exactly - as it is I have Javelineers and Children in there

[Guli]

Tariff seems like a nice card to me in the light of "tinker/fat shrouded dude"

I think as fish players we are looking for different ways to answer Tinker. Well Tariff is quite effective. It is like the white edict in a way.

 I think black is the color to use these days. For confidant+edict. Also Yilid Jailer will be nice in SB but I would even dare to play him main deck. I know a 2/1 for 2 mana isn't great but if the rest of the deck can do its job against the wider meta then those 4 slots might just be worth it to have a good game 1 vs ichorid, which seems to pop up here and there anyway in almost every tournament.

Pure white has its merits being able to play dual white bears much more easily. Believer is a good card really don't make the mistake to underestimate the shroud to yourself.

I would like to see more better arguments though to back up the choice of mono white. And more concrete cards that otherwise would be hard to fit in a multicolor deck that are relevant and strong for T1.

[BruiZar]

I think Samurai of the Pale Curtain would be a better substitute for Yixlid Jailer because its more universal (hits welder / y.will)

[Kaiser von Hugal]

I agree - mostly as Im trying to focus on mono white.

4 Icatian Javalineers
4 Jotun Grunt
3 Kataki
3 Canonist
4 True Believer
3 Aven Mindcensor

4 Null Rod
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Tariff
3 Aura of Silence
1 Balance
1 Enlightened Tutor

4 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
12 Plains

SB
2 Pithing Needle
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
4 Tormod's Crypt
1 Sacred Ground
1 Serenity
3 Seal of Cleansing

[nineisnoone]

I think Samurai of the Pale Curtain would be a better substitute for Yixlid Jailer because its more universal (hits welder / y.will)

It only hits permanents so it's kinda limited.  Slaver can still TFK then weld something into play, which is usually how the first one comes in.  Long can still replay pretty much anything other than Lotus which makes very narrow.  I could see 1 to hope to draw it when you need it, but it's just not that good.  Certainly not a 4 of imo.

[Guli]

I think Samurai of the Pale Curtain  has got cool functions. It does stop crucible locks so against shop decks with welders and crucibles it really helps to save the mana base, but that is just an example. Being more universal is exactly what I don't want in this case. I want specific answers to specific decks. I don't accept the samurai as a solid argument to play mono white in the context of the Vintage scene.

The question that should be asked here is: How will you turn playing with 1 color to your advantage? Limiting yourself to 1 color means that you narrow your choices as well. What are the positive things about mono color decks? Blue abused Back to basics like this.

I think the parfait is already a white weenie in vintage utilizing a lot of mana denial and tax/scroll engine effectively.

Nobody says that other approaches are impossible but there is a catch. You can't just throw solid white creature together and hope for the best. You need that extra spark.

I always in a way believed that white has a lot of options available and should be able to compete without splashing other colors. But then again to be fair and objective, adding another color gives you a lot and I can't think of any good argument to dismiss another color. I am curious to hear it from any of you guys.

Later

[BruiZar]

I have to agree there. Currently, there isn't much at WW. Perhaps the strongest card at WW got banned and even that never really saw tournament play.

[the boogie man]

I think suppression field is the closest you are going to get to a reason as there is in ww. With it, fethes become a hassle, which makes splashing a little harder. it also helps when you are looking to play things like believer, samurai, chant, or other things with a cost of ww.

[Guli]

Here is a list of cards i found on mws. Some are not really top notch but i still implemented them anyway (not much choice with dual and triple white mana cost.

    1 Soltari Visionary
    1 True Believer
    1 Serra Avenger
    1 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
    1 Eight-and-a-Half-Tails
    1 Wizened Cenn
    1 Divine Sacrament
    1 Cleansing
    1 Wing Shards
    1 Aura of Silence
    1 Dust to Dust
    1 Crusade
    1 Runed Halo

Cards like crusade, divine sacrament and the walking version if you want to make it kithkin heavy -> Wizened Cenn, are clock hence less turns for the opponent. I think it is a valid option if cards like Canonist, Aven Mindcensor and Glowrider are present. It is not a bad idea to pump creatures with a fragile body but great effect.

Runed Halo is also a card to consider. I think it is one of the best cards to pick from if you look at the dual/triple white pool.

To be honest I am not greatly impressed at first glance but that doesn't mean anything. And it is not necessary to use these cards with the requirement of at least 2 white cc. These are the obvious ones to try making the 1 color an advantage. Suppression field is also taking advantage of 1 color, but in a less direct way. So we could look to cards like that as well.

[Kaiser von Hugal]

I like Land Tax and Empyrial Armor - Im foregoing Scroll Rack as 4x Null Rod I think are the better play.

Im struggling with the idea of Land Tax though as well as going with Jotun Grunt vs Samurai   or Kataki vs Canonist in the MD.  Which of those 4 creatures are the stronger plays MD?

[the boogie man]

I'd definately say that grunt is the stronger play than samurai, but I'd probably only play 3. overextending them will make you lose them real quick. but you also don't want the cards in your hand sitting around.

With that said, I don't think that cannonist should be a playset either. The effect isn't cumulative, and I like to diversify threats. I'd say 3 grunt, 3 cannonist, 2 samurai would be good numbers. You could put the other samurais in the board for stax, control slaver, and ichorid.

I like the idea of land tax as well. It ensures that you will always hit land drops, which is sometimes difficult for aggressive decks. It also pulls tons of lands out of your deck. I don't know if armor is, though, considering that it would be very easy to 2-for-1 you. a there is also a good chance that you will not have a crapload of cards in your hand.

A possible direction to go would be adding some ancient tombs. These would pump out null rod turn 1, and aven mindscensor and glowrider on following turns. It also makes it easier to pay through glowriders.

I think that something like this would work;

1 lotus
1 petal
1 mox pearl
1 chrome mox

5 strips
2 ancient tomb
11 plains

4 null rod
4 suppression field
3 chalice
3 land tax
2 swords to plowshares
2 seal of cleansing
1 aura of silence
1 enlightened tutor

4 icatian javelineer
3 jotan grunt
3 cannonist
3 glowrider
3 aven mindscensor
2 samurai of the pale curtain

sb:
2 samurai
3 tariff
2 aura of silence
3-4 chant/abeyance
2 swords
thorn of amethyst

mana tithe also could be tested. It seems like a decent card in white, and would really surprise people. augury adept really might warrant a spot, as card advantage is hard to come by in white. it's 3 mana, but that shouldn't be a huge issue.

[Kaiser von Hugal]

Id probably go with 2 abolish and 1 disenchant over the 2 seals and aura because of the suppression fields

[swawagon]

I don't think you really have time to wait for Land Tax to get going as you don't have great answers if they do get ahead. Nor do you apply huge pressure for opponents to play lands. This is a similar argument for why Standstill isn't usually that great in weenie decks.
I'd consider Tithe (Not Mana Tithe) as it gets a land as an instant, right now, for the same mana as Land Tax, and can potentially get 2. Certainly if Land Tax is going it is better, but it can be situational and White Weenie actually needs to get to 2 white mana as quickly as possible.

[nineisnoone]

I'd probably go with 2 abolish and 1 disenchant over the 2 seals and aura because of the suppression fields

Aura of Silence isn't all that bad with fields.  Yes, it cost's you 2x per field to activate it, but it has a great passive effect.  I guess it depends how you see it.  If you want a "fix what got through card" then Silence isn't it.  But if you want another strong pro-active piece of disruption, turn 1 Field and turn 2 Aura is a very strong play. 

[Kaiser von Hugal]

Is the Morph cost of Exalted Angel effected by Suppression Field?

[nineisnoone]

nope. i asked the question myself. forget what it was though.

[Kaiser von Hugal]

Id be interested to hear people's opinions on which card is the stronger play - Canonist or Kataki?

[Guli]

That is not a bad question. There are people who think Kataki does nothing even against shop. That is a false argument of course, he does put pressure and sometimes shop can get nailed by a singleton Kataki. You do have to realize that Kataki doesn't answer anything it puts pressure on the mana base. Canonist answers a specific matchup, combo. Kataki does almost nothing against combo other  than annoy, but a well timed bounce (rebuild, hurk Recal) takes care of that. Unless,.. you have a lot of counter backup, and more disruption. Kataki is a support card while canonist is a silver bullet (even that is questionable btw, a single canonist doesn't get the job done either)

It is strange that you compare these cards. It is not like they serve the same role in a deck. I might even consider to run them both even if you have to pay 1 mana to keep canonist alive.

[nineisnoone]

Kataki is alright.  It's usually safer to underestimate it than overestimate it imo.  It can randomly win you a game, but most of the time it'll be the rest of your deck that gets you there.

Cannonist is SB anti-combo hate.  Unless you are either really artifact oriented or are a very aggressive aggro deck, I wouldn't main deck it as control decks would be able to leverage it against you well.

I'd consider Tithe (Not Mana Tithe) as it gets a land as an instant, right now, for the same mana as Land Tax, and can potentially get 2. Certainly if Land Tax is going it is better, but it can be situational and White Weenie actually needs to get to 2 white mana as quickly as possible.

I'm actually curious on what people think of Mana Tithe.  I mean, Daze sees play.  Disrupt has seen play.  Okay, Mana Tithe is strictly worse, but just curious if anyone has ever gotten it to work....