[FREE Article] So Many Insane Plays: Vintage On a Budget -- GW Beatdown!

[mdenny]

Has anybod tried this deck with fastbond or regrowth? Fastbond seems like the best budget acceleration a deck ike this could get.

[Euphonic]

To be frank, I have already designed a GWB list that I originally intended to include in my discussion of this article on GW Beatdown.   At the last minute, I decided to save the analysis and presentation of a black splash for a future article.   One of the reasons is that I felt that discussing a black splash would take away from the presentation of GW, since adding a black splash gives you, in many respects, a much stronger deck for the obvious reasons you mentioned.  

So Steve, when are we going to see this BWG list of yours? Im dying to see it!!!

[AmbivalentDuck]

Back on page 1, someone suggested exploring Survival.  As a Legacy Survival player, I'm shooting that down.  You need Vials to get around the enormous loss of tempo from tapping out one turn to get Survival into play, and then tapping down the next turn to make it do something relevant.

Point is, if Vial fish was viable at all we could talk about it, but it's an uphill argument to suggest that fish should not be running 4x Null Rod right now.  Without Vial, it takes 3ish turns to do anything productive with Survival.  So, the immediate conclusion is that Survival just won't work in vintage right now.  Maybe in the sideboard for the aggro mirror we could consider it, but certainly not maindeck.

[djmotel]

I played this deck with some minor changes in a Vintage League in Madrid with 46 people. I did top8 beating two Tezzeret, 1 Stax and 1 BR deck with magus of the moon (i really love Shusher here) I'd lost two games, against the same player with TPS. I am very happy with the deck, it's very reactive, and with a good open hand, its unbeteable by tezz, remora, gifts... and does pretty well against Stax and MUD (due to the seals and qasalis).

Changes were: -1Null rod -1 Elvish spirit Guide -1 lotus petal -2 plains -1 Savannah // + 1 mox pearl + 1 mox emerald + 1 black lotus + 1 enlighted tutor (great! search canonist, null rod, seal, choke, it saves me a lot of times) +2 Horizon canopy (just to draw in case of emergence). I missed 1 plain instead 1 forest. Instead of orim's chant I choose 3 Tormod's cript, but i did not play agaist any Ichorid, and miss them against TPS, so bad choice...

Most times I sent Tarmos to side in the second and third game, because against tezz, remora, gifts, etc they are not necessary. But agains any aggro deck they are tech, so i thing it's a risk you must afford.

I.m thinking to include a couple of Eladamri's Call to look for the creature you need at each time, instead 2 tarmos, and include again the lotus petal to have more chances to give a first turn play.

Nice deck STEVE! I loved it since it appeared in deckcheck, but after playing it, but now I'm considering to carry it to a big vintage event in Mdrid in a couple of weeks. Thanks!

[Guli]

I played this deck with some minor changes in a Vintage League in Madrid with 46 people. I did top8 beating two Tezzeret, 1 Stax and 1 BR deck with magus of the moon (i really love Shusher here) I'd lost two games, against the same player with TPS. I am very happy with the deck, it's very reactive, and with a good open hand, its unbeteable by tezz, remora, gifts... and does pretty well against Stax and MUD (due to the seals and qasalis).

Changes were: -1Null rod -1 Elvish spirit Guide -1 lotus petal -2 plains -1 Savannah // + 1 mox pearl + 1 mox emerald + 1 black lotus + 1 enlighted tutor (great! sea rch canonist, null rod, seal, choke, it saves me a lot of times) +2 Horizon canopy (just to draw in case of emergence). I missed 1 plain instead 1 forest. Instead of orim's chant I choose 3 Tormod's cript, but i did not play agaist any Ichorid, and miss them against TPS, so bad choice...

Most times I sent Tarmos to side in the second and third game, because against tezz, remora, gifts, etc they are not necessary. But agains any aggro deck they are tech, so i thing it's a risk you must afford.

I.m thinking to include a couple of Eladamri's Call to look for the creature you need at each time, instead 2 tarmos, and include again the lotus petal to have more chances to give a first turn play.

Nice deck STEVE! I loved it since it appeared in deckcheck, but after playing it, but now I'm considering to carry it to a big vintage event in Mdrid in a couple of weeks. Thanks!

I have a question about Vexing Shusher. I also find him a strong play but can you explain why he has been great specificallly for you in the tourney you went. I am wondering something. Did you use Vexing to combat counter magic or did he also help you against a chalice.  Would Xantid Swarm have done the same job for cheaper mana. Sure Swarm can not beat but you can drop whatever you want for the rest of the game. Since tezz isn't aproblem anyway I can see why shusher might be a better choice in this deck.

Good job btw T8! Gratz

[JDawg13]

To be frank, I have already designed a GWB list that I originally intended to include in my discussion of this article on GW Beatdown.   At the last minute, I decided to save the analysis and presentation of a black splash for a future article.   One of the reasons is that I felt that discussing a black splash would take away from the presentation of GW, since adding a black splash gives you, in many respects, a much stronger deck for the obvious reasons you mentioned.  

So Steve, when are we going to see this BWG list of yours? Im dying to see it!!!

You can find it here: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/17522_So_Many_Insane_Plays_The_Hottest_Deck_in_Vintage_GWB_Beatdown_and_Other_Vintage_Notes.html
There's even a thread on it right here in Vintage Open.

[Suicideking]

I played this deck with some minor changes in a Vintage League in Madrid with 46 people. I did top8 beating two Tezzeret, 1 Stax and 1 BR deck with magus of the moon (i really love Shusher here) I'd lost two games, against the same player with TPS. I am very happy with the deck, it's very reactive, and with a good open hand, its unbeteable by tezz, remora, gifts... and does pretty well against Stax and MUD (due to the seals and qasalis).

Changes were: -1Null rod -1 Elvish spirit Guide -1 lotus petal -2 plains -1 Savannah // + 1 mox pearl + 1 mox emerald + 1 black lotus + 1 enlighted tutor (great! sea rch canonist, null rod, seal, choke, it saves me a lot of times) +2 Horizon canopy (just to draw in case of emergence). I missed 1 plain instead 1 forest. Instead of orim's chant I choose 3 Tormod's cript, but i did not play agaist any Ichorid, and miss them against TPS, so bad choice...

Most times I sent Tarmos to side in the second and third game, because against tezz, remora, gifts, etc they are not necessary. But agains any aggro deck they are tech, so i thing it's a risk you must afford.

I.m thinking to include a couple of Eladamri's Call to look for the creature you need at each time, instead 2 tarmos, and include again the lotus petal to have more chances to give a first turn play.

Nice deck STEVE! I loved it since it appeared in deckcheck, but after playing it, but now I'm considering to carry it to a big vintage event in Mdrid in a couple of weeks. Thanks!

I have a question about Vexing Shusher. I also find him a strong play but can you explain why he has been great specificallly for you in the tourney you went. I am wondering something. Did you use Vexing to combat counter magic or did he also help you against a chalice.  Would Xantid Swarm have done the same job for cheaper mana. Sure Swarm can not beat but you can drop whatever you want for the rest of the game. Since tezz isn't aproblem anyway I can see why shusher might be a better choice in this deck.

Good job btw T8! Gratz

I dont want to talk for steve but for the one mana to get a body on the guy seems worthwhile.  If youre playing aggro you dont really want guys who dont do damage in your deck. 

[Guli]

I played this deck with some minor changes in a Vintage League in Madrid with 46 people. I did top8 beating two Tezzeret, 1 Stax and 1 BR deck with magus of the moon (i really love Shusher here) I'd lost two games, against the same player with TPS. I am very happy with the deck, it's very reactive, and with a good open hand, its unbeteable by tezz, remora, gifts... and does pretty well against Stax and MUD (due to the seals and qasalis).

Changes were: -1Null rod -1 Elvish spirit Guide -1 lotus petal -2 plains -1 Savannah // + 1 mox pearl + 1 mox emerald + 1 black lotus + 1 enlighted tutor (great! sea rch canonist, null rod, seal, choke, it saves me a lot of times) +2 Horizon canopy (just to draw in case of emergence). I missed 1 plain instead 1 forest. Instead of orim's chant I choose 3 Tormod's cript, but i did not play agaist any Ichorid, and miss them against TPS, so bad choice...

Most times I sent Tarmos to side in the second and third game, because against tezz, remora, gifts, etc they are not necessary. But agains any aggro deck they are tech, so i thing it's a risk you must afford.

I.m thinking to include a couple of Eladamri's Call to look for the creature you need at each time, instead 2 tarmos, and include again the lotus petal to have more chances to give a first turn play.

Nice deck STEVE! I loved it since it appeared in deckcheck, but after playing it, but now I'm considering to carry it to a big vintage event in Mdrid in a couple of weeks. Thanks!

I have a question about Vexing Shusher. I also find him a strong play but can you explain why he has been great specificallly for you in the tourney you went. I am wondering something. Did you use Vexing to combat counter magic or did he also help you against a chalice.  Would Xantid Swarm have done the same job for cheaper mana. Sure Swarm can not beat but you can drop whatever you want for the rest of the game. Since tezz isn't aproblem anyway I can see why shusher might be a better choice in this deck.

Good job btw T8! Gratz

I dont want to talk for steve but for the one mana to get a body on the guy seems worthwhile.  If youre playing aggro you dont really want guys who dont do damage in your deck. 

I am not discussing the usefulness. I believe shusher is amazing against slow control. The only thing I am worried about is when you drop him, that moment you are vulnerable and a direct threat could have been cast. Shusher is a threat as well against blue but the loss can happen fast these days. You are in effect delaying your bullets and going for safety first. Against heavy control this works well and seals the game, he beats and neutralizes their counters. I believe that casting down a turn 1 Xantid Swarm is better than a turn 2 Vexing Shusher against drain/force even if it doesn't beat unless exalted is being used. Vial has the problem that it pays of a turn too late, shusher seems to interfere with a crucial turn were you want to drop a strong disruption that will at least stall for 1-2 turns so another disruptive spell can come down the next turn making the gab smaller and smaller, tightening the net.

In the light of the previous points, Xantid Swarm seems pretty solid to me. It can be dropped turn 1 and will give back its fruits the next turn. It that respect it is better than vial because it speeds up the threat density. I also want to repeat the point that flying+exalted works great.

[nineisnoone]

If you want the cannot be countered effect, I've been happy trying out Leyline of the Lifeforce.  Only creatures, but hey, it's free, uncounterable, turn 0, which I think outweighs it.  4 mana is a bit slow if you want to hard cast it, but so is not-in-the-opening-hand.

I got to it after trying out Xantid.  As far as Xantid goes, I think it's a fine card and, depending on your list, better than Shusher.  It's simply a matter of how many attacking bodies you have in your deck.  Shusher lets you be a little lighter since he can attack.  Xantid needs to be heavier since it can't (really) attack.

[Guli]

As far as vial lists go, they are creature heavy. You forget that you also want to be able to get down null rod turn 2 which isn't protected so early on by shusher , vial or lifeforce. The only card that can protect all your spells freely is Xantid Swarm. The prize you pay is neglectable when indeed a lot of beaters are being used. There will always be a 4-6 damage clock pretty soon with all your creatures getting through.

The 2 extra damage that Shusher might deal per turn, plus let's not forget that it requires mana to use him, doesn't outweigh the arguments that I use to justify Xantid Swarm in a creature heavy 'vial' build. The slots for vial are replaced by Xantid Swarm. What do you lose by doing this? You lose the ability to get in creatures in response AFTER turn 2-3 and you lose the ability to outplay spheres. (note that its only sphere of R. that can cause some delay) You really don't care if it is response when you can cast it down 2 turns earlier. And the shop/prison match is pretty solid with noble/qasali (exalted). I like to look at what I gain in this case, Null Rod.

Forcing instants to come out in your combat phase will give you a better idea what to drop in your second main phase as well. Xantid forces them to make a decision before you dropped a lock piece. This makes your second main phase your actual main phase unless you want to get in noble or qasali before Xantid Swings making it deal at least 1-2 damage. (every little bit counts) After you gather the information what they did during your combat phase you can respond more accordingly by getting down the correct lock component. Also stops things like EOT hurk recall or rebuild

[Bone]

I tested UGw fish (top 8 deck from BoM3) vs Guli's list with Xantid Swarm piloted by Guli himself. And I have to say that Xantid Swarm was really good against me. If it is better/worse than Shusher I don't have any opinion about. But in the build I tested against it was MVP. Can beat with Noble/Pridemage in play. And makes all other spells uncounterable. Perfect to get that Ethersworn og Gaddock into play. Or some other creature/spell that can't be countered. Also makes stifle dead against fetching.

[Smmenen]

Nick Vallas recently won a tournament with a GW Beatdown deck:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=38116.msg530609#new

I saw that Nick got 43rd place at the Waterbury with a similar list (you can find it in my blog), but that he made some changes and tweaks that seemed to make a difference (such as Kataki, and obviously Qasali Pridemage).  I'd be very interested in hearing Nick's decision making process for some of his choices.  

GW Beatdown winning sends a message that NON BLUE budget/beatdown decks CAN win in Vintage.  

[zabuza]

What do you think about the cards Nick plays and are not common like :

Knight of the Reliquary

and

Heartwood Storyteller

When i was building my GW deck i thought on both of this guys but costing 3 makes me think that they weren´t good enough in vintage to be played. Nowdays i don´t know what to think.

The knigh is a huge mosnter in this deck because between wastelands. fetchlands and canopys grows to infinite and can search for the waste effect when needed. The only problem is that it cost 1GW.

The stroyteller is a monstruous draw engine because is like a mistic remora with legs that attack while you are drawing tons of cards with the opponent trying to recover the table position.

The problem is that we have 14 creatures of 3cc (mindcensors, knights, ESG(well they couldn´t be counted as 3cc creatures but at the end they are) and storytellers). I think this is a lot. 

And the deck doesn´t count with one of the greatest creatures green provides (vexing shuser).

Sideboard i think could be improved and choke is a card i love to play in it.

I don´t like mishras in this deck because it´s very mana intensive and i think man-lands here are counterproductive.

Can anybody tell more about the deck, what where its match-up along the tourney, why nick chose that cards and so on.


Lot of thanks for the help.

[lilmidget]

with the unrestriction of crop rotation, knight of the reliquary seems like a interesting direction to go into for this deck. 4x crop rotations could be incorporated where searching for a strip or wasteland effectively adds +2/+2 to a knight

[Guli]

It may be even forced. Running basic lands does not translate to a solid mana base anymore. Crop/Crucible will be hard to deal with.

Noble Hierarch will become a must i think. Also running life from the loam / crop rotation yourself might be strong. The enlightened can also be used to find fastbond, null rod, seals.

For sure a lot of possibilities are opened for GW aggro control, because crop is green and enlight. T. is white. Someone will pop up a list soon.

[lilmidget]

during playtesting, one thing i will say about the xantid swarm vs shusher argument which gives the edge for shusher: shusher has great synergy with ESG. tapping out to play a mindcensor when they fetch or tutor will almost always force them to counter if they can. throw out an ESG to make it uncounterable with shusher and they will have wasted their counter.

[BruiZar]

@lilmidget: I think Xantid Swarm is much more interesting than shusher because you don't care about bating a counter if its dead in their hands. Why bate something that isn't going to be used in the entire game anyway?

[kuberr]

your opponent can more easily play around swarm, with regards to mindcensor, by playing tutors and cracking fetches on their own turn.

with shusher you can respond to their tutor/fetch with an uncounterable mindcensor.  with swarm you only get to cast uncounterable mindcensors at sorcery speed which greatly diminishes the value of mindcensor, imo.  although it's still a solid card, just not a semi counterspell.

[bluemage55]

Also, a surprise shusher activation against a FoW results in not only the loss of the FoW, but the card they remove to cast it.

[the_lord_shaper]

But there is one big difference between shusher and swarm, swarm costs 1 and shusher costs two. Simply put, swarm gives you an great turn one, and a uncounterable turn two null rod with just a had with lands and no mana excels. I think that postive out ways any negative the creature has honestly. Plus its less mana intensive as well, so you would be more apt to use your waste lands instead of holding them back to generate more mana for shusher.

[bluemage55]

But there is one big difference between shusher and swarm, swarm costs 1 and shusher costs two. Simply put, swarm gives you an great turn one, and a uncounterable turn two null rod with just a had with lands and no mana excels. I think that postive out ways any negative the creature has honestly.

Have you tested them?  Xantid swarm is one of those cards that does well when theorycrafting and goldfishing, but in reality it runs into being countered and just being useless against non-blue decks.  Shusher's uncounterability and bigger body are very relevant advantages.  Swarm is also unsynergistic with the exalted mechanic, both because you want to cast exalted creatures before you attack and because the need to attack with swarm cacn preclude you from taking advantage of swinging for more actual damage the same turn.

Plus its less mana intensive as well, so you would be more apt to use your waste lands instead of holding them back to generate more mana for shusher.

Shusher is activated with red or green mana, not colorless.

[lilmidget]

@the_lord_shaper & @BruiZar : pretty much everything that bluemage55 said addresses most, if not all, of your points.

i have found that the argument for shusher over swarm can be addressed in a few key factors.

1. as it was mentioned in the thread previously, the main problem with this deck is the lack of a draw engine. it has very few ways to generate card advantage without splashing into another color. the alternative to generating your own card advantage is slow down your opponents'. as bluemage55 mentioned, the ESG surprise factor if they use force of will does make a difference providing some card advantage, which this deck is lacking. if a player in that situation pitches a mana drain, that doesn't help much because drain is a dead card with shusher on the board anyway. but if the only other blue card they had was a merchant scroll or tezzeret or fact or fiction or ponder or any other search/draw card, then it will make a huge difference.

2. i believe the 2/2 body of the shusher for the additional G does matter. simply put, tezzeret is not the problem. you should be doing well against tezzeret regardless of if you use swarm or shusher imo. the problem i believe you run into is other aggro control decks, like fish. going back to the fundamentals of magic, [http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=3692], as the GW player, you are the beatdown deck, they are the control deck. swarm does not help you here at all in your role as the beatdown deck.

3. you don't ever actually have to use shusher's ability. ever. with xantid swarm, you actually have to attack with it, which will probably negate the exalted ability from pridemage as bluemage55 mentioned. it also runs into the problem of if your opponent has any sort of flying creature at all (which i know is not common, but is still a possibility). if you really think about it, shusher's ability is more of a static ability that might as well be this:

Vexing Shusher
GG - 2/2
Vexing Shusher can't be countered.
As long you have G available, spells you cast can't be countered by spells or abilities.

except for the surprise ESG activation that occurs when i am tapped out, i don't believe i have ever really used shusher's ability.

4. unless you get swarm in your opening hand to play on turn one, it's slow. when you are in topdeck deck mode around turn 3-4, which is likely to happen with this deck, and you draw a swarm, if you actually manage to get it to resolve, you have to wait a turn to use it. you can actually make use of shusher the moment you play it.

But there is one big difference between shusher and swarm, swarm costs 1 and shusher costs two. Simply put, swarm gives you an great turn one, and a uncounterable turn two null rod with just a had with lands and no mana excels. I think that postive out ways any negative the creature has honestly. Plus its less mana intensive as well, so you would be more apt to use your waste lands instead of holding them back to generate more mana for shusher.

there are very very few situations where i'm not using the wasteland immediately. and like bluemage55 said, shusher's ability uses G, not 1.

[edit:] forgot to mention another reason

5. against shop decks, a chalice of the void for 2 will simply wreck you. if you didn't manage to get out teeg in time to stop it, then a shusher is the only thing that will keep you in the game. not being counterable means he gets around chalice by himself. and you now have the option of paying an additional G to play your creatures. obviously not the best situation to be in, but better to be in a bad situation than a dead situation.

[bluemage55]

obviously not the best situation to be in, but better to be in a bad situation than a dead situation.

Not to mention the fact that it it lets you resolve Qasali Pridemage, you can blow Chalice away.

[Tobi]

Why would you want to blow the Chalice if you have a possibility to get around it in play?
Chlaice is basically the main reason I would play Shusher in a deck like this.

[lilmidget]

Why would you want to blow the Chalice if you have a possibility to get around it in play?
Chlaice is basically the main reason I would play Shusher in a deck like this.

why would i keep it in play and continually spend an additional G on every 2cc spell i play to get around it?

[Tobi]

why would i keep it in play and continually spend an additional G on every 2cc spell i play to get around it?

Because it prevents your opponent from playing 2cc spells 
Stax would be unable to play Spheres and Ravagers, and Powder Keg (not that these matter if you have Null Rod, but you probably don't).
It depends on the board situation of course. If I was very short on mana, I'd probably blow the Chalice, but if not...

[LordHomerCat]

Also keeping your 2/2 Exalted dude who can blow up most of their cards seems good too.  I mean, would you cast Pridemage and then immediately blow up a Sphere of Resistance?  That seems like a pretty bad play unless you have no extra mana, and blowing up Chalice there strikes me as pretty much the same thing.

[lilmidget]

Also keeping your 2/2 Exalted dude who can blow up most of their cards seems good too.  I mean, would you cast Pridemage and then immediately blow up a Sphere of Resistance?  That seems like a pretty bad play unless you have no extra mana, and blowing up Chalice there strikes me as pretty much the same thing.

when you play against shop-based deck, they can have a full arsenal of moxen, mishra's workshop, lotus, ancient tomb, sol ring, mana crypt, mana vault, etc. as the GW player, all you have access to are single-mana producing land and 2 moxen and a lotus (if you aren't playing the budget version). by turn 2 or 3, you are most likely going to have 2-3 mana available. by turn 2 or 3, they might have 6-8 mana available, certainly enough to play a chalice for 2.

in short, they can pull out a chalice for 2 extremely fast and early. i don't think you will have that much disposable mana when that happens, so it seems like in most situations where this will come up, you should get rid of the chalice as soon as possible. but if you manage to have a good stable mana base by the time they chalice, then i do agree that you should just leave it there.

[policehq]

If you can cast Qasali Pridemage and activate Vexing Shusher against Stax, you're doing pretty well, and definitely shouldn't activate Pridemage to destroy the Chalice. There probably will be a better target, or you can beat.

[lilmidget]

If you can cast Qasali Pridemage and activate Vexing Shusher against Stax, you're doing pretty well, and definitely shouldn't activate Pridemage to destroy the Chalice. There probably will be a better target, or you can beat.

like i said before, and like Tobi and others have said, it will always depend on your situation. i'm not going to say that 10 out of 10 times you should immediately take out chalice with your pridemage. obviously if there is a better choice, then go for that instead.

if you manage to get out a pridemage and shusher, i wouldn't necessarily say you're doing well enough to not consider destroying the chalice. the chalice effectively limits you to one spell per turn until you get up to 6 mana. it's a huge loss in tempo for your already slow-clock, mana accelerant-lacking GW deck.