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Smmenen
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« Reply #90 on: July 30, 2009, 11:14:49 am » |
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Shusher is way better than Xantid Swarm, it's not even close.
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chief
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« Reply #91 on: July 30, 2009, 02:10:17 pm » |
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Shusher is way better than Xantid Swarm, it's not even close.
Could not possibly agree more. |
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Smmenen
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« Reply #92 on: July 30, 2009, 02:19:22 pm » |
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What are the best answers to Ichorid in G/W?
Wheel of Sun and Moon is not very good. T. Crypt and Relic are not enough.
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Troy_Costisick
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« Reply #93 on: July 30, 2009, 02:38:01 pm » |
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What are the best answers to Ichorid in G/W?
Wheel of Sun and Moon is not very good. T. Crypt and Relic are not enough.
Wasteland and Pithing Needle are available as well. Jotun Grunt is a fringe card, but I know it was used in the past by some against Ichorid. |
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mike_bergeron
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« Reply #94 on: July 30, 2009, 02:41:33 pm » |
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What are the best answers to Ichorid in G/W?
Wheel of Sun and Moon is not very good. T. Crypt and Relic are not enough.
Wasteland and Pithing Needle are available as well. Jotun Grunt is a fringe card, but I know it was used in the past by some against Ichorid. Can Honor the Fallen be used in some way? It seems crappy to have to get to two mana AND have the spell still in hand, but you can always hit a mox on turn 1. |
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Tobi
Tournament Organizers
Basic User
Posts: 898
Combo-Sau
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« Reply #95 on: July 30, 2009, 03:24:15 pm » |
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A combination of Pithing Needle and Wheel of Sun and Moon / Samurai of the Pale Curtain might do it.
When looking for quick Ichorid Answers I stumbled across Heap Doll. Kills Bridges and removes a GY card.
Most important goal is to get rid of Leyline so the Bridges can be touched. Wispmare fits this perfectly since it also removes bridges in the same move (not sure if this is true though), and is also a good answer to Oath.
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2b || !2b
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the_lord_shaper
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« Reply #96 on: July 30, 2009, 03:49:31 pm » |
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Shusher is way better than Xantid Swarm, it's not even close.
I agree that in W/G, R/G, and possible any deck that just green and one other color, that shusher is better. The problem I have with your comment Steve, is that it sounds like you mean that it's 100% better in every single deck, which is not the case. Any deck with three colors couldn't run shusher, and in those situations swarm is better. I would also use swarm if I had blue in my deck. I'm not entirely disagreeing with you Steve, I just think that shusher is best in two color decks, and that swarm is better in three color decks. |
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"-I didn't know you could stop being a God.
-You can stop being anything."
Delirium and Dream conversing, in Brief Lives (Sandman).
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Smmenen
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« Reply #97 on: July 30, 2009, 04:12:03 pm » |
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I don't know if that's true either. If you are playing black, I can't see how Swarm is better than Shusher, or even Duress effects for that matter.
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pierce
Basic User
Posts: 325
Part Time Vintage Guru for Hire
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« Reply #98 on: July 30, 2009, 04:18:21 pm » |
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dont forget that swords/path upkeep on their ichorid is a strong play. it's not enough by itself, but no one has added these two cards to the list of relevancy. when combined with a waste effect, this can be enough to slow them down until you find a way to completely blow them out.
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More like Yangwill!
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Stormanimagus
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« Reply #99 on: July 30, 2009, 05:27:48 pm » |
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A combination of Pithing Needle and Wheel of Sun and Moon / Samurai of the Pale Curtain might do it.
When looking for quick Ichorid Answers I stumbled across Heap Doll. Kills Bridges and removes a GY card.
Most important goal is to get rid of Leyline so the Bridges can be touched. Wispmare fits this perfectly since it also removes bridges in the same move (not sure if this is true though), and is also a good answer to Oath.
See, I've given this question a lot of thought because I had the same problem with Selkie-Strike. What do you do against Ichorid? You can load up on something like Wispmare, sure, but what about the Mise approach? I saw that a bit in Jon's list, but what if we took that to the next level? Since Enlightened Tutor is now unrestricted is it not possible to see something like this: MD 2-3 Enlightened Tutor 1 Tormod's Crypt 1 Wispmare 1 Pithing Needle SB 1 Heap Doll 1-2 more Wispmare 1 Relic Of Progenitus 1 Wheel Of Sun And Moon. Edit: Also, this may sound like a dumb question, but how does Samurai of the Pale Curtain work? I assume it only RFGs permanents that get put to the yard FROM PLAY. Correct? If not, then it is WAAAAYYY better than I thought. |
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« Last Edit: July 30, 2009, 05:34:17 pm by Stormanimagus »
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"To light a candle is to cast a shadow. . ."
—Ursula K. Leguin
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the_lord_shaper
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« Reply #100 on: July 30, 2009, 05:43:09 pm » |
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I don't know if that's true either. If you are playing black, I can't see how Swarm is better than Shusher, or even Duress effects for that matter.
Again I partially agree with you Steve. Duress-effects are overall better then swarm or even shusher for that matter, but if the deck you're playing is three colors and one of those isn't black, then swarm is a viable option. I'm not saying swarm is better then shusher period. I am just suggesting that swarm has its play in some decks and shusher has its place in others. My side board in my G/W/U fish deck for dredge is 4 wheel of sun and moon, 3 tormod's crypts, 4 swords, 1 pridemage (3 already in the MD). |
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"-I didn't know you could stop being a God.
-You can stop being anything."
Delirium and Dream conversing, in Brief Lives (Sandman).
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Stormanimagus
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« Reply #101 on: July 30, 2009, 05:59:18 pm » |
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I don't know if that's true either. If you are playing black, I can't see how Swarm is better than Shusher, or even Duress effects for that matter.
Again I partially agree with you Steve. Duress-effects are overall better then swarm or even shusher for that matter, but if the deck you're playing is three colors and one of those isn't black, then swarm is a viable option. I'm not saying swarm is better then shusher period. I am just suggesting that swarm has its play in some decks and shusher has its place in others. My side board in my G/W/U fish deck for dredge is 4 wheel of sun and moon, 3 tormod's crypts, 4 swords, 1 pridemage (3 already in the MD). I think Swarm only really fits best in a combo deck that is looking to protect its combo but will not often get GG or RR up and doesn't want to waste extra mana the turn it is going off anyway. I think that in a beat-down style aggro deck it simply doesn't belong. Gonna have to go with Mr. Menendian on this one. |
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"To light a candle is to cast a shadow. . ."
—Ursula K. Leguin
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the_lord_shaper
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« Reply #102 on: July 30, 2009, 06:09:55 pm » |
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That's totally fine that you disagree with me. My personal preference is for the swarms, they have been performing amazingly well for me lately. But I understand why shusher is used and thought of as a better card. I do wish they would make a swarm that was just a 1/1 though.
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"-I didn't know you could stop being a God.
-You can stop being anything."
Delirium and Dream conversing, in Brief Lives (Sandman).
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chief
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« Reply #103 on: July 31, 2009, 05:37:54 am » |
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@lord shaper- I played shusher with significant success in GWR aggro.
@steve- an enlightened tutor toolbox can be pretty painful, as was discussed, simply due to the fact that it essentially gives them "extra" hate pieces. If they have one on turn one or two, then e tutor can usually find the next one before I get too far ahead from answering the first. Other than that, children of korlis is definately better than heap doll. The extra card out of the yard against ichorid vs an extra card against combo that also does almost the same thing vs ichorid, and isn't an artifact...well, it's not really close. I get that you can then e tutor for it, but in that case I think I'd rather be getting crypt/relic every time.
Personally, I like relic of progenitus and tormods as your ichy hate. Keep in the pridemages and seals, obviously, to deal with leyline. If you have something like children, then bring 'em in. Wastelands should get you pretty far when combined with one of these cards. The important thing to remember is not to be afraid to crypt them early- if they start to accumulate zombies, you're sunk. Keep a clock going. The worst thing to see when you're playing ichorid is a hate component on the board and you've only got a few turns to deal with it and win.
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policehq
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« Reply #104 on: July 31, 2009, 09:36:43 am » |
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Any aggro-control deck is going to be slower than Tez and combo, so Xantid Swarm is a loss of tempo. The opposing player uses their counters to resolve their threats and should not worry about countering your own; their life total will take care of that.
Against Stax, Xantid Swarm is only good at taking care of a soot counter for a turn. Vexing Shusher can get in there for damage and resolve spells through Chalice.
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Smmenen
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« Reply #105 on: July 31, 2009, 12:04:09 pm » |
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@lord shaper- I played shusher with significant success in GWR aggro.
@steve- an enlightened tutor toolbox can be pretty painful, as was discussed, simply due to the fact that it essentially gives them "extra" hate pieces. If they have one on turn one or two, then e tutor can usually find the next one before I get too far ahead from answering the first. Other than that, children of korlis is definately better than heap doll. The extra card out of the yard against ichorid vs an extra card against combo that also does almost the same thing vs ichorid, and isn't an artifact...well, it's not really close. I get that you can then e tutor for it, but in that case I think I'd rather be getting crypt/relic every time.
That was the major tweak that jon donovan made, was giving an E. Tutor toolbox. But he did it with only 2 E.tutors and added a Crucible. Your major targets: Nul Rod, Choke, Seal, and Crucible. Not bad. I'm not sure if it's the best use of those slots though either. |
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Rome
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« Reply #106 on: August 03, 2009, 12:14:53 pm » |
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g/w answers are pretty cut and dry wheel, crypt, relic, grunt, also lets not forget here all you have to do is get a creature into your grave sacking a pridemage to pop one of your own arts is never a bad idea. your also usualy putting them on a quick dredge clock if you have the waste/strip early for the bazaar possibly crop rotation is a good answer for this to get it out faster. pithing needle does help as well. honestly dredge is low t3 in my mind and it really shouldnt see as much play as it does i think the answer for this is that its a cheaper deck to build that is still effective.
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Rome
Team Empire ~ Founder aka Ceaser
Vintage worlds 2010 Top 8
Empire Stax
Coin... Jug~O~Spheres
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Smmenen
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« Reply #107 on: August 03, 2009, 12:57:21 pm » |
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I really like Ghostly Prison with Wastelands.
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Troy_Costisick
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« Reply #108 on: August 03, 2009, 02:05:57 pm » |
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honestly dredge is low t3 in my mind and it really shouldnt see as much play as it does i think the answer for this is that its a cheaper deck to build that is still effective.
Tournament results don't back up that statement. |
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Rome
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« Reply #109 on: August 04, 2009, 02:36:16 pm » |
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honestly dredge is low t3 in my mind and it really shouldnt see as much play as it does i think the answer for this is that its a cheaper deck to build that is still effective.
Tournament results don't back up that statement. In large tournys they do and as well as on most lists of t1-3 as on the vintage boards here too its t1 tez stax top t2/bottom t1 fish tps g/w beats g/r beats t3 dredge oath painters goblins ad nauseam tourny results of what a field of 20 or would you like to bring up larger standings? dredge yes it has a good game 1 and gets in there most of the time. However game 2 and 3 you swing to maybe a 15% win chance just based on pure board hate as stated before. im not knocking the deck or the players who play it. im just saying that its not t1 or t2 and tournys do reflect that. TPS and fish rarly loose to it and stax and tez usualy do not eather. thats why its t3. |
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Rome
Team Empire ~ Founder aka Ceaser
Vintage worlds 2010 Top 8
Empire Stax
Coin... Jug~O~Spheres
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overseer1234
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« Reply #110 on: August 10, 2009, 07:18:51 am » |
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EDIT: Never mind.
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« Last Edit: August 10, 2009, 07:58:58 am by overseer1234 »
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Smmenen
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« Reply #111 on: August 11, 2009, 08:50:12 pm » |
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It may have been overlooked in all the hoopla, but this article is now free.
The statement at the beginning of the article remains accurate. Enjoy!
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ilpeggiore
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« Reply #112 on: August 12, 2009, 10:46:39 am » |
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hi guys, i play something similar :
1 mine
4 waste
2 forest
1 plains
4 savannah
6 fetch
2 horizon canopy
1 lotus petal
1 mana crypt
4 rod
3 stp
4 ESG
4 noble hierarch
4 qasali
4 teeg
3 aven
3 ophran viper
3 vexing shusher
2/3 kataki
0/1 canonist
3 tarmo
side :
SB: 2 Absolute Law
SB: 2 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 Seal of Primordium / Krosn grip / oxidize /Naturalize
SB: 3 ??
maindeck stp : . my metagame is creatures full, random 11/11 are always a problem, a blocking tarmo could slow me 2 much. But the real reason to play swords is called confidant.
noble : provides mana. it means second turn waste, fast mindcensor or viper. Exalted is a bonus. (its better topdeck than a land...).
it's a good 1mana drop, something this deck needed.
viper : inkwell-killer and drawing engine. 3x 'cause usually you don't need it so fast
why only 3 tarmo ?? fast tarmo is a bad play. goyf is a beater and nothing more. this deck packs 33 creatures... there's always something damaging the opponent. Tarmo is here to inflict the last damages (and because they become bigger than opponent's ones).
i don't like maindeck choke.... they could be useless. its incredibli strong but its cc3 is its biggest weakness against the deck its supposed to beat. maybe a couple in side....
same for the seals.... with qasali they are no more needed (8 GW creatures protect me from cotv2).
they could be cool cards... but cool creatures kill the enemy.
vs drain based shusher+teeg are enought imho.
with the rising number of hurkyl recall played, i cut the number of canonist
Side under construction:
2 card vs goblin/zoo etc... ( +2 samurai)
6 card vs ichoride
4+ card vs artifact /oath
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Stormanimagus
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« Reply #113 on: August 12, 2009, 11:18:49 am » |
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viper : inkwell-killer and drawing engine. 3x 'cause usually you don't need it so fast
i don't like maindeck choke.... they could be useless. its incredibli strong but its cc3 is its biggest weakness against the deck its supposed to beat. maybe a couple in side...
Couple comments here: I've been thinking of Ohran Viper as a decent include for GW beats that don't splash black (because edict is a no-go and Confidant is a no go and it kinda works towards both ends at once), but wouldn't Tariff just be a more efficient Inkwell Hoser? How often does the GG in Ohran Viper's mana cost become prohibitive? It seems like a solid card, especially with 4 ESG, but I can't really justify running it right now. I'm not sure Choke should be MD either, but it should certainly be SB as a 3-4 of if not MD. It IS one of the best threats you have to stop Tezzeret, but also, opposing Fish decks like Selkie. A resolved Choke can be pretty devastating for them unless they have the nuts with a couple moxen out and a couple Hierarchs. Choke is a very good choice right now. I do think your deck needs some more SB beef for fighting Oath and Ichorid. Some people swear by Krosan Grip. I personally like Ray Of Revelation, but another card to consider is Wispmare. It is good against Oath AND it kills opposing leylines against ichorid while removing bridges in one fell swoop. I'd also consider some SB Ghostly Prison for Oath. Anyway, those are my thoughts for now. -Storm |
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"To light a candle is to cast a shadow. . ."
—Ursula K. Leguin
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urweak
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« Reply #114 on: August 12, 2009, 11:44:57 am » |
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What are the best answers to Ichorid in G/W?
Wheel of Sun and Moon is not very good. T. Crypt and Relic are not enough.
Ghostly Prison is an option, but I really like Windborn Muse. |
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Smmenen
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« Reply #115 on: August 12, 2009, 12:41:44 pm » |
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What are the best answers to Ichorid in G/W?
Wheel of Sun and Moon is not very good. T. Crypt and Relic are not enough.
Ghostly Prison is an option, but I really like Windborn Muse. Yeah, Ghostly Prison was the option I settled on a few weeks ago when I posted that question, but I didn't want to reveal it until my article this week. |
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ilpeggiore
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« Reply #116 on: August 12, 2009, 01:15:48 pm » |
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@stormanimagus
tariff is bad, really , really bad. works only vs creatures, works on me too, can be avoided.
stp is cheaper, faster, instant, u can use it on your critters. and exiles. still kills 11/11 and sphinx
tariff is better only vs inkwell. but inkwell is only one of the several ways the tezz player can kill you. 2 mana for an early tariff is a time walk. If you have a teeg or another non goyf critter on the board ... are you ready to sacrifice a lock piece ?
IF inkwell will be so played it would be better to splash in black, blu or red (edict-hurkyll-reb)
other option :the deathtouch arcer ?
doesn't touch welder nor confidant--> bad.
Viper is in the deck because makes u draw cards (killing inkwell and surviving f/i, piroclasm, massacre etc..., not fallin under cotv2... are secondary quality).
drawing is not so important but if the same creatures resolves the tinker problem .... must use it.
wispmare is a good idea. ghostly is a little slow. leyline is my favorite card vs icho. choke is strong but the deck is created to beat tez... maybe i should play something tht's not vs pblue.
3 absolute law
3 choke/orim's
3 wispmare
4 leyline
2 naturalize /seal/krosan (i would prefer something polyvalent).
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Smmenen
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« Reply #117 on: August 12, 2009, 01:38:21 pm » |
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Tariff is actually not that bad. As someone who has been playing with Tariff for almost four months now you can generally pay for Tariff, while your opponent will have to lose Inkwell. Tariff also kills DSC just fine. Tariff is the best options for killing Inky.
The problem with Archer is that the opponent just doesn't attack, and you can't either. You want to kill inkwell, not simply stop it from killing you.
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Troy_Costisick
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« Reply #118 on: August 12, 2009, 05:17:18 pm » |
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Tariff is actually not that bad. As someone who has been playing with Tariff for almost four months now you can generally pay for Tariff, while your opponent will have to lose Inkwell. Tariff also kills DSC just fine. Tariff is the best options for killing Inky.
The problem with Archer is that the opponent just doesn't attack, and you can't either. You want to kill inkwell, not simply stop it from killing you.
This is 100% true. I've been playng with Tariff and Archer for a long time now. Archer is good, but he's actually best on the attack against big robot players- not on defense. Tariff is one of the few cards outside of black that can deal with cards like Inkwell or Progenitus. Don't knock it 'til you play it. |
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ilpeggiore
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« Reply #119 on: August 13, 2009, 03:17:30 am » |
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i played with tariff (only a few games) but killin my homies slow me too much.
stp can be done while im wasting or casting creatures.
first turn teeg/qasali/xyz
second/3rd turn tariff means 3 card burnt to kill the robot. sure is betta than die but a good player could use the tinker -plan only to take time.
a fast robot is a problem (unless i see viper and some 2/x guys really fast) but if i would need tariff, black splash is a better answer.
viper is a bad confidant that can kill the ink. ink is only strenght 7, we could race.
archer is not something i would play.it is a 2/1 vanilla against a lot of deck.
i still don't feel so uncomfortable without a killer-ink spell.
maybe is only a metagame-difference.....
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