S.S. Tezzeret

[M.Solymossy]

SS Tezzeret
by Mike Solymossy  and Team GWS


Back Story
Ever since Tezzeret was legal, I've been playing the deck. I've played it in every tournament but 4, in which I played GWSx.  I've played most variations of Tezzeret possible. UB, UBr, UBg, UBgr, UBgrw, Mono-U,  UR, and UW.  I've had marginal success, splitting a sapphire, a time walk, and a timetwister with different versions and almost always landing in the top 8.   In this post, I am going to explain which build I feel is currently the best.

The Decklist

// Lands
    3 Underground Sea
    3 Polluted Delta
    1 Snow-Covered Island
    2 Flooded Strand
    2 Island
    1 Tolarian Academy
    1 Library of Alexandria
    2 Volcanic Island

// Creatures
    1 Darksteel Colossus
    1 Tezzeret the Seeker

// Spells
    1 Yawgmoth's Will
    4 Mana Drain
    1 Voltaic Key
    1 Time Vault
    1 Tinker
    4 Spell Snare
    1 Merchant Scroll
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Mystical Tutor
    1 Gifts Ungiven
    1 Fact or Fiction
    4 Force of Will
    1 Imperial Seal
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Rebuild
    1 Brainstorm
    1 Ponder
    4 Thirst for Knowledge
    1 Echoing Truth
    1 Mana Vault
    1 Time Walk
    1 Sensei's Divining Top
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Mana Crypt


Card Choices

First, obviously, is the namesake:

4 Spell Snare:   This card has been obsurd!  What I really enjoy about it is that your opponent pays two mana for an effect, you snare it, and they don't have that mana.   Relivant cards SS hits:

Null Rod
Chalice of the Void @ 1
Sphere of Resistance / Thorn of Amethyst
Confidant
Tarmogoofus
Meddling Mage
Ethersworn Cannonist
Quasilli Pridemage
Gaddock Teeg
banana Drain
Time Walk
Time Vault
Merchant Scroll
Cabal Ritual
Demonic Tutor
Tinstreet Holigan
Joblin Piledriver
Hurkyl's Recall
Echoing Truth
Oath Of Druids
Painter's Servant



0 Duress:  I haven't played duress in many of my Tezzeret builds, and honestly, I feel it's just a crutch.  I haven't missed the card at all, and I don't feel it does much against the field right now.  I only miss it when I play against Ad Naseum.  I feel pretty comfortable with this deck against TPS, as is.

Imperial Seal:  I'm in love with this card in this deck.  It's a solid turn 1 play, and late game when you have a mit full of control, it's safe to play this card and put a card on top.  I always hated this card in COmbo.  It was way too slow, and gave your opponent a full turn to disrupt you, or make you not want that top card anymore.  This deck has many more ways to make sure that doesn't happen.

2 Bounce Spells:  I decided to play Rebuild because more people are playing Workshop decks as a foil to tezzeret.  It also is somewhat comforting with 2 Bounce Spells against Null rod.  In the worst case, the spell does cycle.


Ponder:  it's one mana to filter 3 cards, or shuffle them away.  The card is fine.  If you're not running it in a traditional TFK Tezz build, you're an Are-Tard. 

Tezzeret:  Everyone cut this guy, and I think you're absolutely wrong to do so.  I play 1, and it's been simply amazing.  The times when you drop this guy, pass turn and just say "you have a turn... do something" is just too good.  Most importantly, it says -5 Loyalty: Kill your opponent.   Owen's list, for example, only runs a Tinker Target and a Trinket Mage to bash with, at least maindeck.  I wouldn't feel very comfortable with that.

 

Matchups

I'm not going to discuss matchups until I have more data, but preliminary testing has shown that Tezzeret's usually bad matchups are about 5-10% better, and the good matchups didn't swing any.   Bottom line is duress just isn't needed.


Questions/Comments?


-Soly

[swawagon]

I love Rebuild in near any blue deck now (plus nice having another way to remove Mana Crypt in Time Vault turns.)
I like Tez
I like Ponder

Not sure about Library of Alexandria. How does it stand up for you?...

Spell Snare. Mmm, Spell Snare. All I really fear with Spell Snare is an early Tinker, when Negate or a Mana Leak - and a Mox online, would have stopped it. However Rebuild is an now available and obviously you have the 4 Forces and 4 Drains.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

What do you think is the biggest contributing factor to why you think this deck is so stable against combo that it can drop Duress? (or Thoughtseize as the case may be) Is it you as a player that is strong enough to carry the extra burden or is Tezz just so strong as a basic shell that minor tweaks to shore up bad matchups just don't even make a reasonable dent in it overall? (AKA it is THE deck as data suggests) You mentioned it was a problem against ANT but then said it doesn't really swing the overall percentages against it so I'd be really curious as to what is the reason behind this. Either way I'm sure this is a step in the right direction (as long as combo doesn't become a major offender) for the best of the best players as Spell Snare should always be relevant and the tempo difference between it and Duress can be crucial for the same reason REB can be better. (except obviously it doesn't force a third color)

Also I suppose you can put some better anti-combo cards in the sideboard and take out the Snares against it post-board. Cool but scary. :S

[M.Solymossy]

What do you think is the biggest contributing factor to why you think this deck is so stable against combo that it can drop Duress? (or Thoughtseize as the case may be) Is it you as a player that is strong enough to carry the extra burden or is Tezz just so strong as a basic shell that minor tweaks to shore up bad matchups just don't even make a reasonable dent in it overall? (AKA it is THE deck as data suggests) You mentioned it was a problem against ANT but then said it doesn't really swing the overall percentages against it so I'd be really curious as to what is the reason behind this. Either way I'm sure this is a step in the right direction (as long as combo doesn't become a major offender) for the best of the best players as Spell Snare should always be relevant and the tempo difference between it and Duress can be crucial for the same reason REB can be better. (except obviously it doesn't force a third color)

Also I suppose you can put some better anti-combo cards in the sideboard and take out the Snares against it post-board. Cool but scary. :S

I have chalices currently in my Sideboard to slow down combo, and Spell Snare can hit a Cabal Ritual, Demonic Tutor and Merchant Scroll against Combo.  Honestly, I feel that I am just strong enough a player to negate the loss of duress, and I tend to just race TPS.  Ad Naseum is somewhat scary because you don't have the turn 1 duress to stop their combo.  If they don't turn 1 you, you have the advantage of just racing them.  The problem most people make is they always tutor up Recall with their early tutors, and they hope to hit forces off it.  Then they die to tendrils.  I always will tutor up a counterspell if I don't have one, unless I'm playing against Aggro.   

Overall, if you play tight, you can still beat Ad Naseum.  Unless they turn 1 you.

[zeus-online]

I think spellsnare is interesting, but i have the same doubts as everyone else: How much worse does the combo match-up become by adding spell snare instead of negate or duress? While tutoring for FoW is definetly solid (I do that aswell, surviving beats having AR in hand) that still only puts you at Demonic, merchant scroll and 4 force to guard against their turn 1.

A bonus for spellsnare is that it counters confidant, which is a card i fear when playing Tez.

[M.Solymossy]

I think spellsnare is interesting, but i have the same doubts as everyone else: How much worse does the combo match-up become by adding spell snare instead of negate or duress? While tutoring for FoW is definetly solid (I do that aswell, surviving beats having AR in hand) that still only puts you at Demonic, merchant scroll and 4 force to guard against their turn 1.

A bonus for spellsnare is that it counters confidant, which is a card i fear when playing Tez.

That's not exactly true.   You also have land + Mox + tutor + top, Land+sapphire + drain, Lotus + drain, mox x2 academy drain, etc.   It's really not that bad.

[breed]

Rock solid build. I really love Spell Snare, but do you really need Imperial Seal? That's only a top deck tutor in sorcery speed, I never felt this really powerfull in other things than TPS decks.

 

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Imperial Seal:  I'm in love with this card in this deck.  It's a solid turn 1 play, and late game when you have a mit full of control, it's safe to play this card and put a card on top.  I always hated this card in COmbo.  It was way too slow, and gave your opponent a full turn to disrupt you, or make you not want that top card anymore.  This deck has many more ways to make sure that doesn't happen.

In my opinion that covers why perfectly. Imperial Seal isn't so hot in combo (at least the laser-fast combo) because passing the turn isn't so hot in combo. On the other hand in something like Tezz, if you don't trust your deck to be able to pass the turn then you shouldn't be playing with Drains. With 12 relevant counterspells I see no reason not to include another Vampiric Tutor. He also stated that he doesn't have a problem just racing combo decks and I'm sure Imperial Seal is a strong contributing factor to that. Soly's list is just straight up serious business.

[Ruven]

quick question: What's your sideboard?

I see you have play 2 volcanic Island, so REBs and Rack and Ruin SB? what's your weapon of choice againt Fish decks? (ok 4 S.S. main is already Sweeet! )

also: how does this deck perform against Remora builds? any specific SB plan against it? or do people in your area just not play it enough to be relevant for you?

Peace
Ruven

[M.Solymossy]

To answer your question, I have a bunch of different cards I work in the sideboard, and am still trying to perfect the numbers.

Chalice of the Void
Yixlid Jailer
Rack and Ruin
threads of Disloyalty
Darkblast
Firespout
Red Elemental Blast
Ingot Chewer
Tormod's Crypt
Trinisphere
Fire/Ice
Shattering Spree
Glen Elendra Archmage
Sower of Temptation
Relic of Progenitus
Pyroclasm
Firestorm
Pulverize
Shattering Pulse
Extirpate

[2pro4ygo]

What do you guys think of Dark confidant in the main as a 2 of?

he seems absolutely incredible in the mirror, the only problem I see is that it usually puts you on a clock with time vault when you combo off, but I usually still win by tutoring for a top or killing them with tezz within a few turns. The advantage that Bob produces seems to be worth the risk, for a turn 1 or 2 Bob pretty much ensures victory in the mirror or TPS if you don't die to flipping force of wills (etc.) I could be overestimating this card in tezz but it just seems he always allows you to outdraw your opponent.

Thoughts?


Also. I just recently started playing vintage and am unsure of what cards to side out against the  mirror and/or fish based decks. I know I want to bring in a couple red elemental blast for the mirror. Threads, sower, and massacre for the the fish based decks. However I am very unsure of what to take out for them. Your help would be most appreciated.

here is my list:                                  sideboard:           

1 black lotus                                    1 hurkyl's recall 
1 mox emerald                                 1 rebuild
1 mox sapphire                                 2 red elemental blast 
1 mox jet                                         1 sower of temptation
1 mox ruby                                       1 threads of disloyalty
1 mana crypt                                    2 firespout or massacre
1 sol ring                                         2 relic of progenitus
1 lotus petal                                    2 extirpate
1 sensei's diving top                         2 yixlid jailer
1 time vault                                    1 rack and ruin
1 vaultaic key
2 dark confidant
1 inkwell leviathan
1 goblin welder
1 gorilla shaman
4 force of will
1 misdirection
3 mana drain
3 thirst for knowledge
1 mystical tutor
1 ancestral recall
1 brainstorm
1 timewalk
1 gifts ungiven
1 fact or fiction
1 ponder
1 tezzeret
1 tinker
1 hurkyl's recall
1 merchant scroll
4 duress
1 thoughtseize
1 yawgmoth's will
1 demonic tutor
1 vampiric tutor
(14) lands
3 undergroung sea
2 volcanic island
1 island
1 swamp
3 polluted delta
2 flooded strand
1 library of alexandria
1 tolarian academy

  

[M.Solymossy]

What do you guys think of Dark confidant in the main as a 2 of?

I think this is a terrible idea.  Dark Confidant is very slow.  Sure, the guy is insane if he sticks, but he's sorcery speed, and unless you drop him on turn 1, you're not going to get much good off him.

As for your list, Fire Inkwell.  Everyone has an erection for that guy, but the almost every deck is playing a mass bounce spell.  The extra turn, and not being able to ditch him effectively to TFK makes him awful.   Ditching Darksteel to TFK is highly relivent.

Also, please don't try to hijack my SPELL SNARE TEZZERET list with your godawful terrible slaver-tezz build. Thank you.

[2pro4ygo]

Also, please don't try to hijack my SPELL SNARE TEZZERET list with your godawful terrible slaver-tezz build. Thank you.

 This is so unnecessary by the way......duress is infinitely better than your god awful spell snare idea.
I may not have been playing for very long but common sense tells me that in just about in any situation you would much rather have duress/thouhgtseize.
Why would I want to hold a spell snare between turns 1, 2, and 3(or however long) thats dead unless they play a spell with converted mana cost of 2 (not to mention it makes your combo matchups worst) when I can cast a duress/thoughtseize for the same amount of mana, taking whatever card spellsnare could have maybe countered, or a card with converted mana cost of 1 or 3 (which spellsnare obviously can't do) or any other relevant card in that situation including important combo pieces (etc.) I also get to look at their entire hand which makes it alot easier for me to combo off because I know what and what not to counter and/or do......the hell I can just take their force of wills or whatever they have to stop me from winning (spell snare cant do that by the way) Im not saying ss is bad, but in tezzeret and this metagame, duress/thoughtseize is better....It's pure logic. Because it appeared to be good in situations when you playtested it doesn't mean u should run it. I'd rather have a card a card that can cripple my opponent and makes it easier for me to combo off than to have a potentially dead card that may or may not counter a spell with cmc of 2......way to situational compared to your other options.
When weighing the pros and cons, the pros of duress/thoughtseize clearly substantially outweighs the pros of spellsnare.

In no way do I use mind slaver in my build, their are different and specific logical reasons why each spell and color splash is in my deck, by no means is my deck awful, and by no means is dark confidant slow

[Grand Inquisitor]

2pro4ygo, welcome to T1 and TMD.  You should try to be open to criticism and make sure you understand the rules of posting.  A few points:

1) This is a thread about Tezzeret lists with spell snare, not about Tezzeret generally.
2) If you want input on your list, you should seek it in your own post, probably in the improvement forum (since it seems untuned and you're new to the format)
3) Your discussion of your preference for Duress/Thoughtseize is pretty good.  Your defence of Dark Confidant and your other deck choices is less comprehensive (and should probably be done elsewhere).  Strive for the first type of posting.

This is so unnecessary

I sort of agree with you, at least about Soly's tone.  However, if you stick to the above suggestions, you'll better avoid the ire of the community.


~on topic~

Soly, I'm also surprised that you're such a fan of spell snare.  The problem with spell snare is that, while faster than mana drain, if on the draw its power goes way down since they can usually sneak in something with a mox or w/e.

I know you're a seasoned player, but the information gleaned from Duress/Seize should not be underestimated.  I'm guessing no, but would you consider that your testing might be skewed since you were playing with people you know and maybe against decks whose contents you knew (reducing the would-be value of that information)

Spell snare doesn't answer ancestral recall, tinker or yawgmoth's will, which, in my experience, are the most common ways to end a game.

[M.Solymossy]

duress is infinitely better than your god awful spell snare idea.

 You're actually wrong.  My many MANY hours of testing has shown that Spell Snare does a lot more than Duress does.   You've never played against fish, apparently.

I may not have been playing for very long but common sense tells me that in just about in any situation you would much rather have duress/thouhgtseize.

That's actually not common sense.  I've won/split three pieces of power with a Tezzeret deck that played 0 duress.  Owen and TK have won several pieces of power without duress.   Rich Shay and Demonic Attorney (Demonic Attorney) have won numerous pieces with and without duress.    Plus, common sense shows me that your point [which I bolded for emphasis] shows that you contradict any potential "common sense" you have for this format.

Why would I want to hold a spell snare between turns 1, 2, and 3(or however long) thats dead unless they play a spell with converted mana cost of 2 (not to mention it makes your combo matchups worst) when I can cast a duress/thoughtseize for the same amount of mana, taking whatever card spellsnare could have maybe countered, or a card with converted mana cost of 1 or 3 (which spellsnare obviously can't do) or any other relevant card in that situation including important combo pieces (etc.) I also get to look at their entire hand which makes it alot easier for me to combo off because I know what and what not to counter and/or do......the hell I can just take their force of wills or whatever they have to stop me from winning (spell snare cant do that by the way) Im not saying ss is bad, but in tezzeret and this metagame, duress/thoughtseize is better....It's pure logic.

Are you really that dense?   You want spell snare to stop their Tarmogoyfs, Dark Confidants, and NULL FUCKING ROD!  The card singlehandedly beats you.  Duress is AWFUL against Shops and Aggro/fish builds.   It's NOT pure logic.   I've taken logic classes in College, and you have not proven any of your arguments are anything but pure idiocy.   Needing to see your opponent's hand is just a weakness that weak vintage players crutch on, with tezzeret.  You definitely do not need it.  I will play you with bug fish against your normal tezz+duress build, and I guarendamntee you only win 2 of 10 games.  Play against null rods.   They hurt.  

Because it appeared to be good in situations when you playtested it doesn't mean u should run it.

 

Actually, if you knew what the hell you were doing, this is EXACTLY what it means.  If a card tests very good (and I have very good testing partners, as do my teammates.  Anthony Michaels tests with Jerry Yang and Mark Trogdan.  I have tested with at least 6 SCG/Champs top8ers/winners, and I myself have top8ed Champs, so before you say my testing is off-base, think again).

I'd rather have a card a card that can cripple my opponent and makes it easier for me to combo off than to have a potentially dead card that may or may not counter a spell with cmc of 2......way to situational compared to your other options.  

Until you duress them, and then they draw a tutor/null rod/etc.   Again, like I said, you're crutching on Duress.

When weighing the pros and cons, the pros of duress/thoughtseize clearly substantially outweighs the pros of spellsnare.

You have yet to prove this. And you won't be able to.  I will at the ICBM open when I top 8 with Spell Snares in my deck.

In no way do I use mind slaver in my build, their are different and specific logical reasons why each spell and color splash is in my deck, by no means is my deck awful, and by no means is dark confidant slow

You have GOBLIN WELDER IN YOUR DECK, AND IT DOES NOTHING!!!  How is that not awful. You're playing a slow creature that is a dead draw 95% of the time, and only matters if they counter your Time Vault or you discard inkwell leviathan.

Dark Confidant gets played on turn 1. -1 card.  Then on turn 2, it replaces itself. 0 card.  Then on turn 3, it FINALLY nets you +1 card.  that is SLOW.  Yesterday in testing, I had an opponent Tinker-> Inkwell Leviathan on me on turn 1.   I raced him.  It's the same clock, except Inkwell actually kills me.  My point is, by the time you gain any real advantage off colossus, TPS has killed you, stax has locked you, and Aggro has played Null Rod and a Tarmogoyf or two.    I won/split 3 tournaments in a row with GWSx (Dark Confidant Tendrils), and there is a reason I don't play it.

Two other things:
1 ->  Do your research before you try to hijack my thread with your BS.  You should really look up some of the people you argue with.  I'm not making off-base claims with no testing or results to back them.   I hate showing my credentials, but you obviously think I'm some Rando-Commando with no real experience.  Let me clarify this for you.

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Events.aspx?x=mtgevent/usnat08/vintage2

http://www.morphling.de/search.php?type=1&app=30&sorting=DESC&search=Solymossy&sent=1

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37590.msg523106#msg523106

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37765.msg525545#msg525545


2 ->  Don't flame me, and not expect to get fire thrown down your face.  

Soly calm down.
-Klep

[M.Solymossy]

I know you're a seasoned player, but the information gleaned from Duress/Seize should not be underestimated.  I'm guessing no, but would you consider that your testing might be skewed since you were playing with people you know and maybe against decks whose contents you knew (reducing the would-be value of that information)

Spell snare doesn't answer ancestral recall, tinker or yawgmoth's will, which, in my experience, are the most common ways to end a game.

I test both in person with teammates, as well as online against people of whom I don't know what they are playing.  I disregard any deck that isn't competitive from my results, and I've playtested with numerous TMD users as well (I usually just AIM people instead of playing Randoms on MWS).   So the short answer is no, I don't believe the testing is skewed. We will find out at the next tournament I'm at.

Spell Snare doesn't answer Ancestral Recall, tinker, or other busted spells.  The problem is, the only decks running those cards are TPS and Tezzeret (and to a lesser extent, Remora).  You can still answer their Mana Drains, Time Walk (which is actually pretty relivant), Merchant Scroll, Demonic Tutor, and you have another answer for them playing a random Key + Vault (by answering the Vault).  The idea with playing Spell Snare is that duress in many of the meta's I've seen are not hugely relivent, because of a heavy Aggro or Shop meta.  If I was in the New England Area, I would be playing 5 Duress effects in tezzeret, because I will want to beat the Mirror 99% of the time.   However, at the last event I was at, the number of decks with more than 10 creatures and Null rods was more than the number of decks with Mana Drain, Dark Ritual, Mishra's Workshop, and Bazaar of Baghdad COMBINED!  Those creature decks are the worst for tezzeret, so it's an answer to my meta, and the meta I see floating around in numerous other areas.  If I was playing out in the Ohio or Pennsylvania area, I would still play Spell Snare.  NE, I would play Duress (Actually, I would probably just play TPS )

[swawagon]

2pro4ygo it is not pure logic that Duress is better. As Mike mentions, what makes Spell Snare interesting is the opponent has to invest 2 mana AND then there spell can be countered for U. If a spell is handled by Duress the opponent can potentially play something else and the removed card never had any valuable mana spent trying to cast it. Plus an Underground Sea does not need to be fetched for Spell Snare, making the SS TEZ mana base more stable. Spell Snare has it's weaknesses assuredly, but it has it's plusses too. Spell Snare has a pretty impressive list of spells it counters, some that Duress cannot get. And Duress does not protect against opponents top decked cards.

Soly does get a little excited by boldly wishing you didn't hijack this thread, but the presented deck really has little to do with his list.

I'm not completely sold on Spell Snare myself, but Duress can also be argued against. I have a very similar list, but Fire/Ice is on one of the SS slots and Trinket Mage is in another.

And Soly certainly knows the power of Dark Confidant, successfully playing 4 in storm decks all late Winter. And while I don't think Bobs are horrible in a Tez deck that was built to accommodate them, they are not really a card that can just be tossed into any deck with black mana.

[M.Solymossy]

A problem Jimmy McCarthy and I have both discussed, as well as other teammates, is that Fetching to blindly Duress your opponent can walk you into Wasteland traps.   Spell Snare really helps Mana Drain get online against Aggro and surprisingly, against shops in game 1, although snares get boarded out.

[Duncan]

After discussing some with Soly I tested Spell Snare as well in Tezzeret for some weeks now. It has been good. The biggest advantages it has over Duress are:
a. it helps against topdecked cards
b. it counters creatures
c. you opponent needs to invest mana in the countered card, therefore SS is generating tempo

Of course it can not counter Tinker / Will, but good players play their Will/Tinker around duress anyways if possible.

As for the Confidant, I've been playing 3 Night's Whisper in my list. It is also 1B at sorcery speed trading lives for cards, but in this type of faster tezzeret deck (without remora) I think it's way better than Confidant.
a. it gives you 2 cards now instead of over 2 turns (in which something can happen to Bob/you)
b. it is good during Will turns with topdeck tutors
c. you control the amount of life you lose

Just like Soly I've played GWSx a lot and I know the power of Bob, but in this deck it is not at it's best. Therefore I suggest you try NW instead of it.

[Eastman]

I am intrigued by Duncans mention of tempo. Hugely important point. I think that we have transition from what was once a card advantage format into a tempo format. I think we could do a lot better in our analysis by getting in the habit of comparing tempo swings.  I mean, this is why drain and FOW are so good. They are two of the best tempo cards in the game. Drain costs 2, takes ~3, and adds ~3. That's a +4 swing, 2 better than ritual!

In the case of snare, Duncan is spot on. It costs 1, and takes 2. That's a +1 tempo play. Compare duress which costs 1 takes 0, that's -1. The improvement from duress to snare is significant, which really matters in such a tempo based format.

That said, I worry about the versatility of snare. On the whole, doesn't REB hit more stuff?

[M.Solymossy]

Reb doesn't hit the important stuff, Eastman.   Reb makes your mirror better, but is only, just like SS, marginal against TPS and godawful terrible against aggro and shops.  You can't use a Red Elemental Blast on Null Rod, Tha Goofus, Dark Confidant, Time Vault, Which Stephen Menendian Singlehandedly rescued from Oblivion,  or stupid cards like Gaddock Teeg, Da Joblins Piledriver, Oath of Bad Players, or Chalice of the Void set at 1. 

[Duncan]

Edit: what Soly said, he posted while I was typing. Reb is weak against aggro, oath and workshops, Snare is never dead. However, Reb is ok for vindicating tezzerets. Right now, with a lot of aggro played in my meta, I prefer Snare.

[Implacable]

Edit: what Soly said, he posted while I was typing. Reb is weak against aggro, oath and workshops, Snare is never dead. However, Reb is ok for vindicating tezzerets. Right now, with a lot of aggro played in my meta, I prefer Snare.

Yep.  Frankly, in a really heavy Tezzeret meta, I don't think I'd play Tezzeret, so the Tezzeret decks I think are worth discussing are those that square up more against the rest of the metagame than they do against the mirror.  In that case, go with Snare.

[Mantis]

Spell Snare is not tempo gain necessarily as the rate limiting step for chaining spells in Vintage often isn't the amount of colorless mana but rather the amount of oncolor mana required. You are on the play and start with Mox Pearl + Island pass, opponent plays Mox Pearl + Underground Sea --> Dark Confidant and you Snare it, your net gain is still 0 mana. While I agree that in some cases Spell Snare translates into tempogain it's not as cut and dry in Vintage because of the offcolor mana mainly. That said I do not necessarily agree with the notion that Vintage is starting to become a tempo based format. Vintage is a format defined by powerplays not by tempo swings like Legacy is IMO it means squat to be behind on board position if your opponent topdecks a Y. Will, in Legacy such gamebreaking topdecks often don't exsist.

Clarification:
Pat Chapin saying stuff about tempo: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/17572_Next_Level_Magic_Preview_Tempo.html

[Diakonov]

It may be true that in that particular scenario you are not gaining tempo, but in many other situations you are.  Duress almost always loses the argument if comparing the two for tempo, at best sometimes breaking even (unless you Duress a Black Lotus or something).

I agree with Eastman that the game has become more about tempo than it used to be.  Decks can get their game plan online so quickly now that you often see opponents losing the game with a relatively full hand.  Also, games that come down to counter wars over draw spells are more rare than they used to be.

I think you are also right that it has become more about power plays, but I think that's a sign of tempo being important.  Having a mass of effects and being able to accumulate them is no longer as good as having a few quick, strong plays.  The number of Force of Wills no longer matches up with the number of important plays someone can make in one turn that need to be countered.

[M.Solymossy]

I think you are also right that it has become more about power plays, but I think that's a sign of tempo being important.  Having a mass of effects and being able to accumulate them is no longer as good as having a few quick, strong plays.  The number of Force of Wills no longer matches up with the number of important plays someone can make in one turn that need to be countered.

Diak has a great point here.  It is true the format has become about Power Plays, broken down by 1 or 2 turns.  TPS has a 1 turn Power Play to kill you, and Tezzeret has a 1 turn power-play to either Drop Tezzeret with a bunch of counters, or just Key-Vault you.   This is actually why Null Rod has become so powerful again, where in the past couple years (even prior to the Gush nonsense) it wasn't so.   Crippling a Deck's ability to produce the mana needed to string together such important powerplays (thus gaining tempo) is an important part of Stax decks as well as the Aggro decks.   

This is why Spell Snare is good, it gives you more counters than them (you snare their mana drains) and it gives you important foils to the strategies other decks apply to slow/stop you.  These strategies are Chalice @ 1, Sphere of Resistance (Both bad arguments since they're only marginal against Shops), and more importantly, Null Rod, Dark Confidant, and The Goofus.

[Mantis]

You are talking about powerful plays and then proceed to mention a few strategies that are clearly tempo based such as Goyf and Sphere. That said, its neither here nor there really and theorycrafting or nitpicking doesnt get us anywhere. What matters is, Spell Snare seems excellent, no matter how you look at the format, it often performs as a tempo generator to recoup from a mana light start for example and on the other hand is a great foil to powerplays such as Time Vault or Mana Drain.

What we need to figure out; is it stronger than Remora, Dark Confidant, Nights
Whisper, REB and Duress? I believe the answer might be cheesy; its a metagame call. In a broad wide open meta Snare seems prime candidate as its solid against every deck. In a Drain dominated meta, I think Id rather have Remora or REB. So Soly, would you still run this in a Drain meta?

[M.Solymossy]

You are talking about powerful plays and then proceed to mention a few strategies that are clearly tempo based such as Goyf and Sphere. That said, its neither here nor there really and theorycrafting or nitpicking doesnt get us anywhere. What matters is, Spell Snare seems excellent, no matter how you look at the format, it often performs as a tempo generator to recoup from a mana light start for example and on the other hand is a great foil to powerplays such as Time Vault or Mana Drain.

I mention Power Plays because the Tempo decks in the format try to capitalize on the decks that condense their plays to one or two turns (by playing Null rod, etc).  That makes Spell Snare good, because you negate their stall strategy. \

My favorite part of it is against Aggro, when You're on the play, or on the draw and they don't have a mox in their opener, you have Spell Snare up before they play a creature.  And from that point, you have Mana Drain available.

What we need to figure out; is it stronger than Remora, Dark Confidant, Nights
Whisper, REB and Duress? I believe the answer might be cheesy; its a metagame call. In a broad wide open meta Snare seems prime candidate as its solid against every deck. In a Drain dominated meta, I think Id rather have Remora or REB. So Soly, would you still run this in a Drain meta?

Remora has never been too dominant in the Midwest.  If it was, I would consider playing REBs main, but Spell Snare is still pretty good against the Bob-Remora buids.  To be honest, I feel Spell Snare is insane in any meta, other than a Combo or Workshop Infested one.   It's actually not that bad against Shops in game 1, since you snare their spheres.  Against Stax, I won't keep them in.   Against 9Sphere stax, I do.

[JACO]

Soly, having not played against this, I'm curious as to why you think Spell Snare is an appropriate replacement for Mana Drain in this deck.

Spell Snare occupies the same slot as Mana Drain, and attempts to do the same thing (stop an opponent's spell, like Mana Drain, Oath of Druids, Null Rod, etc.). It costs one less blue mana, but it's not like this deck is extremely mana hungry, and it's not like Vintage decks have trouble getting two mana up.

Let's briefly look at the benefits of Spell Snare:
- Counters two casting costs cards for one less mana
- Available to cast first turn

Let's briefly look at the benefits of Mana Drain:
- Can counter any spell, including the most important ones in Vintage (Ancestral Recall, Tinker, Yawgmoth's Will, Thirst for Knowledge, etc.)
- Provides a mana boost to you on your turn, when you go to cast your own mana intensive spells (Thirst for Knowledge, Gifts Ungiven, Fact or Fiction, Tinker, Time Vault, Sensei's Divining Top, etc.)

If you think this through, you're really willing to trade the benefits of spending one less mana for not being able to counter the most relevant spells in Vintage? Sorry, but I just can't see it.

If you're trying to counter what your opponent is doing Mana Drain is better. If you're trying to cast your spells earlier with protection Duress is better. If you're trying to play a more combo build (with stuff like Imperial Seal) Duress is better (see: TPS).

Having played some pretty off the wall Tezzeret lists (and been ridiculed by everyone in Wisconsin for it), even I wouldn't play Spell Snare in this deck, and I LOVE the card (having played it in Vintage Oath and lots of Legacy and Extended decks).

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Soly, having not played against this, I'm curious as to why you think Spell Snare is an appropriate replacement for Mana Drain in this deck.

Spell Snare occupies the same slot as Mana Drain, and attempts to do the same thing (stop an opponent's spell, like Mana Drain, Oath of Druids, Null Rod, etc.). It costs one less blue mana, but it's not like this deck is extremely mana hungry, and it's not like Vintage decks have trouble getting two mana up.

Let's briefly look at the benefits of Spell Snare:
- Counters two casting costs cards for one less mana
- Available to cast first turn

Let's briefly look at the benefits of Mana Drain:
- Can counter any spell, including the most important ones in Vintage (Ancestral Recall, Tinker, Yawgmoth's Will, Thirst for Knowledge, etc.)
- Provides a mana boost to you on your turn, when you go to cast your own mana intensive spells (Thirst for Knowledge, Gifts Ungiven, Fact or Fiction, Tinker, Time Vault, Sensei's Divining Top, etc.)

If you think this through, you're really willing to trade the benefits of spending one less mana for not being able to counter the most relevant spells in Vintage? Sorry, but I just can't see it.

If you're trying to counter what your opponent is doing Mana Drain is better. If you're trying to cast your spells earlier with protection Duress is better. If you're trying to play a more combo build (with stuff like Imperial Seal) Duress is better (see: TPS).

Having played some pretty off the wall Tezzeret lists (and been ridiculed by everyone in Wisconsin for it), even I wouldn't play Spell Snare in this deck, and I LOVE the card (having played it in Vintage Oath and lots of Legacy and Extended decks).

He is replacing Duress/REB with Spell Snare, he still runs a playset of Drains...