[Article] Lets talk about TPS shall we.

[Marske]

I also don't see cutpurse as a card to race with; rather its something that will swing the attrition war in my favor if left unchecked.

You shouldn't be in an attrition war against drains, you're the aggressor..

More often than not it gets countered, which is fine since few cards in my deck draw out countermagic on their own.

You are running cards like: Necro, Bargain, Jar, Tinker, Minds Desire, Rituals, Lotus, Yawg. Will, Grim, Imperial Seal, Demonic, Vamp, Mystical, Ancestral I hope? All of these cards could or should draw out countermagic on their own.

Cutpurse is also arguably better many face-off situations -- negator can't profitably attack into or block goyf, but cutpurse will usually hold him off.

Goyf is and will always be a vanilla creature and I don't even pay attention to it unless it can kill me this turn. The card in itself does nothing against TPS. If my opponent boards in Goyfs while playing drain against combo I'll be having serious doubts about the skill of the drain player (because goyf makes you a snail against combo) If they board in goyf game 3 (if there is a game 3) after they've seen my Negators, I'll just not attack or block with negator depending on what my opponent is doing with his goyf, Negator will be bigger then goyf about 90% of the time so doing a damage race (with me also having the ability to tendrils) isn't really an option. Multiple goyf in play would be a problem but if you're opponent is committing himself to such an aggro strategy he's probably leaving other avenue's unprotected.

[Aardshark]

I also don't see cutpurse as a card to race with; rather its something that will swing the attrition war in my favor if left unchecked.

You shouldn't be in an attrition war against drains, you're the aggressor..

More often than not it gets countered, which is fine since few cards in my deck draw out countermagic on their own.

You are running cards like: Necro, Bargain, Jar, Tinker, Minds Desire, Rituals, Lotus, Yawg. Will, Grim, Imperial Seal, Demonic, Vamp, Mystical, Ancestral I hope? All of these cards could or should draw out countermagic on their own.

Cutpurse is also arguably better many face-off situations -- negator can't profitably attack into or block goyf, but cutpurse will usually hold him off.

Goyf is and will always be a vanilla creature and I don't even pay attention to it unless it can kill me this turn. The card in itself does nothing against TPS. If my opponent boards in Goyfs while playing drain against combo I'll be having serious doubts about the skill of the drain player (because goyf makes you a snail against combo) If they board in goyf game 3 (if there is a game 3) after they've seen my Negators, I'll just not attack or block with negator depending on what my opponent is doing with his goyf, Negator will be bigger then goyf about 90% of the time so doing a damage race (with me also having the ability to tendrils) isn't really an option. Multiple goyf in play would be a problem but if you're opponent is committing himself to such an aggro strategy he's probably leaving other avenue's unprotected.

All good points.

[Marske]

I must say, I think TPS has also gotten a little boost from the current restrictions. Not that we got any cards we can now toy with but more because we play a deck that was build to deal with Staxx at the height of it's performance (4x 3sphere) and I do see staxx on the rise. I'll give a more detailed view on this subject when I've had some testing done. I hope anybody who has some resultst will care to share them with the rest of us.

[LordHomerCat]

I must say, I think TPS has also gotten a little boost from the current restrictions. Not that we got any cards we can now toy with but more because we play a deck that was build to deal with Staxx at the height of it's performance (4x 3sphere) and I do see staxx on the rise. I'll give a more detailed view on this subject when I've had some testing done. I hope anybody who has some resultst will care to share them with the rest of us.

On the other hand though, I expect Remora to pick up a lot of steam since TfK is no longer a viable primary draw engine, which means the drain matchup gets measurably worse.  Also, I think Trinistax is a much different animal than Crop Rot Stax figures to be.  Trini stax was pretty much useless if you just played 3 lands an rebuilt their board, whereas I think fighting through a consistent strip lock plus some number of spheres could make the rebuild plan a lot harder to pull off consistantly.  Obv this is just theory but when I saw the announcement, I definitely mentally marked TPS down a notch.

[Marske]

On the other hand though, I expect Remora to pick up a lot of steam since TfK is no longer a viable primary draw engine, which means the drain matchup gets measurably worse.

Remora isn't so hot when facing a meta filled with Workshop / Aggro / Loam type decks which I really expect to rise with the current unrestrictions. So people running Remora into such a meta will soon notice the draw engines only good in a drain on drain + Storm meta. That being said, I've blasted trough tezzeret running remora during testing and tournaments. Only if people start playing straight up Shaymora (which REALLY sucks in such a meta) will you have problems running TPS. Any deck running remora and no commandeer isn't a problem overall if you know what you're doing. Commandeer is what makes the entire Shaymora matchup scary not remora.

Also, I think Trinistax is a much different animal than Crop Rot Stax figures to be.  Trini stax was pretty much useless if you just played 3 lands an rebuilt their board, whereas I think fighting through a consistent strip lock plus some number of spheres could make the rebuild plan a lot harder to pull off consistantly.  Obv this is just theory but when I saw the announcement, I definitely mentally marked TPS down a notch.

True fighting trough a striplock is an entire different thing then fighting trough a Trinisphere. But countering turn 1 Crop rotation gives you a better chance of winning then countering turn 1 Trini because the opponent just sacrificed a huge amount of tempo against you. If the opponent starts out with dropping spheres crop rotation gets hell of a lot worse so I really don't see why TPS would go down a notch. I even think it goes up a notch because we are basically able to kill faster then drain decks would and we can definitely out draw / race striplock.dec.

[SiegeX]

Cutpurse is not an acceptable option in my opinion and I'll try to tell you why, it's 1UB which means you can't play it of a ritual, which makes it a turn 2 drop at best and a turn 3 drop at worst. At that point a turn 1 Negator would have almost sealed the deal or you could have already won if they don't lead with a early remora.

I completely agree with the above reasons you stated; not being able to ritual him out T1 is a deal breaker for me.  However, it seems to me that the most beneficial ability of cutpurse is his discard ability, not his drawing ability (albeit nice).  If you can reduce the CA of remora, then TPS is free to do what it does without the need for drawing extra cards.  So does this not sound like the perfect opportunity to try out Hypnotic Specter?  Not only is he T1 castable off a ritual, but he forces random discard.  He also has evasion, but I really don't see that being very relevant since if he is flying over Goyfs, one of you is doing something wrong.

I'm not promising the 'man-plan' is the way to go, but since cutpurse got thrown into the mix, Hypnotic Specter seems to be the better choice.  However, I too am  new to TPS so caveat emptor.

[Marske]

I don't think discarding 1 random card as both Hyppy and the cutpurse does will help you battle remora. They still draw shitloads of cards when you combo so what's the point ? Best strategy still seems to be EOT bounce the remora, untap, Combo or force a counterwar and then Tendrils / Desire or board in Negators, if you splash anything use Swarms. I'm talking about the Shaymora matchup here because against Tezzeret running Remora you can basically execute you're game plan as is.

[SiegeX]

They still draw shitloads of cards when you combo so what's the point ?

That is true, but that is not something I am advocating you do.  An early hippy does not strike me as something Shaymora can just ignore.  Granted, TPS is not meant to play the control role, but who's to say that role cannot change given certain gamestates?  If my opp wants to keep paying for a remora that is keeping him off mana to answer hippy while hippy plucks random cards as I sit back crafting my hand, well that sounds like a good deal to me.  More likely than not, that remora is going straight to the yard while they tutor up an answer for hippy (old man IIRC).  In the latter case I just timewalked my opp, caused him to tap out to pay the 1UU cost of old man AND got rid of remora.  That sounds like a pretty solid next turn for me to do broken things.

On the other hand, perhaps I am underestimating how easy it is for Shaymora to consistently pay for remora AND find a meditate to essentially ignore my hippy; I'll dissent to you on that one.

[Marske]

@SiegeX,
Don't forget they can always just draw into another remora and let the first one die in which they get a lot of mana again to work with for a few turns. Hippy just doesn't put that much pressure on them. If you're going for the "dude" plan the only way to really put pressure on them is to make sure you take huge chunks of their life away with each turn they leave you're threat unanswered and the best dude to do this in black is Negator or Goyf if you splash green.

On a small aside note:
TPS has the ability to take on the control roll very easily, don't be mistaken about that and you should be very wary of when to make a switch and step up or down a notch. While it's true with any deck, it becomes even more apparent when playing TPS: Misassignment of Role = Game Loss.

[MaxxMatt]

Nice reading Marske. Well done!

I'm with you with the overall decks design but I find myself more confindent during staks & fish matchups with this manabase.

10 Mana Artifacts
6 (3+3) Fetchlands
5 (4+1) Rituals
4 (2+2) Basics
2 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy

*  Pesky Fishes can't do enough to my basic lands and they buy me enough time to set up a bounce for NRod and go off.
*  Similar arguments can be done for fetchlands, with the golden addendum inherent to their ability to selectively search for the right land at the right time against specific opponents
*  Stifles & co. aren't huge or frequent at now. I don't fear them on my fetchlands too much because they can be faced not more than 1 or 2 over 5 or 6 matches in a mixed metagamed tournament
*  Against Lock.dec, the high number of basic lands and fetchlands help you stabiize mana base really faster. They can't put you in a quick CoW+Waste soft lock and you can even slow down strips, until HRecall/Rebuild come in hand, with fetchlands, too
*  Playing less duals and more basic don't ruin combo or contro matchups. Coupled with all the other mana accelerant and playing a bi.color deck, usually help you to stabilize fast and good with not more than two lands, being easily able to resolve your broken spells.
*  TPS total mana count usually wave from 26 up to 28 mana fonts. I'm usually able to manage flood situations rather than just scooping mana screwed. If I count well, my mana base is only one Ritual/Land different from yours and, from my experience, good players can be able to flood but recover and win while even best ones can't play when screwed and just scoop.



Hope it can help!

Maxx

[neotrophy]

Absolutely correct, MaxxMatt.  This is why we put basic lands in the sideboard.  Neither Stax, nor Fish are going to suddenly blow you out of the water.  But against an unknown deck, most likely to be Tez, you want the larger threat density in the mainboard.

[Andreas]

Something somewhat unrelated: How dou you play against Mystic Remora with TPS? In Testing I have not managed to come up with a really good strategy.

Do you just hope the don't draw into a pitch counter with all the extra cards they are drawing? What if they have two blue mana open? A general guideline here would be much appreciated.

[Marske]

@Andreas,
It really depends on what deck is featuring the remora. Basic Tezzeret sporting 4 Mystic Remora isn't a real problem, Shaymora featuring Commandeers + Remora is a much bigger thread. A basic guideline about the matchup that has brought me success would be bouncing the remora EOT before going of, Boarding in creatures (something they can't handle) and counter baiting to up storm (be weary of commandeer) and then resolve a Desire / Tendrils.

[ConF1ictZ]

just out of curiosity is there any benefit/difference between running bloodstained mire over flooded strand for the 5th fetch?

[Gekoratel]

One can get Islands and one can get Swamps, whichever basic you fetch for more often is the fetch you should run.  If your splashing green for Xantid and are running Bayou then run Mire.

[ConF1ictZ]

 how imperative is it to have basic lands in the sideboard?

[Bill Copes]

how imperative is it to have basic lands in the sideboard?

If your meta has a lot of shops or fish, it's wise and necessary to have 1-2 basics in the board.  If your meta is different, then you have 2 more slots to play with.

[ConF1ictZ]

thats what I was thinking, and to finally wrap it all up, what is the "right" amount of lands to sb, I've usually seend 2-4 but I dont want to have a SB full of lands.

[Marske]

@ConF1ictZ, AbdullahTheButcher,
I would appreciate it if you guys didn't post one sentence reply's this isn't good for the topic and the question that was asked and answered was something that's already been talked about indepth in this topic, the articles writtin by Steve Menendian and other places on these boards as well. Not that I think the question isn't a valid one. To wrap this all up:

Usually it's a good idea to run 2 basics in your board depending or depending on your splash a basic and a dual in your splash color there's no need to run more then this. If you expect no shop AND no fish (very weird meta but ok possible I guess) then you have 2 spots to play with.

[Stormanimagus]

@ConF1ictZ, AbdullahTheButcher,
I would appreciate it if you guys didn't post one sentence reply's this isn't good for the topic and the question that was asked and answered was something that's already been talked about indepth in this topic, the articles writtin by Steve Menendian and other places on these boards as well. Not that I think the question isn't a valid one. To wrap this all up:

Usually it's a good idea to run 2 basics in your board depending or depending on your splash a basic and a dual in your splash color there's no need to run more then this. If you expect no shop AND no fish (very weird meta but ok possible I guess) then you have 2 spots to play with.

I think the question deserves to be revisited now though markse. Now that Crop Rotation is unrestricted Shop decks can essentially run 5 copies of Strip Mine and against strip mine basic = non-basic. If we start seeing a lot more Strip-Lock decks that seek to get it online very fast through Crop Rotation then extra land in the SB might not be as effective as more mass bounce or even crazy answers like Energy Flux. Just trying to point out that the unrestricting of Crop Rotation might change things a bit is all.

-Storm

[SiegeX]

If Shops make a comeback and go crop rot crazy, I don't think it would be too hard to deal with as 1) we have forces and countering a crop rotation is a huge tempo swing in our favor.  2) We can deal with strip lock quite easily with the likes of extirpate.  In fact, because they can only have one strip and play it only on their turn no less, a case can be made that Extirpate is a bit overkill and the likes of Coffin Purge or Ebony Charm or Fade from Memory might be better choices.  

[BruiZar]

I think you exagerate how easy it is to deal with crop rotation for strip mine. How much of a tempo swing is it, really when you counter Crop Rotation, and there is a crucible out? Also, if I would have In the Eye of Chaos in my hand (which i believe shop players should start running) I would grab Tolarian Academy and cast that instead of Strip Mine.

The shop player can also tap Academy, crop rotate it, play Academy (or shop)  from the Graveyard and tap it again to generate enormous amounts of mana that can power out more lockpieces.

[BruiZar]

i think i would hold fow for crucible and just suck up the strip mine

[covetousrat]

http://www.blackborder.com/q/node/2515

Just came across the site above where Patrick Wild talks about the new TPS in the new metagame! Gives good insight on the weaknesses of TPS and how to evolve it to combat the new metagame.

[ConF1ictZ]

very interesting article. Its a shock at first looking at the suggested decklist as the dynamics of it are alot different than TPS as we know it. The removal of grim tutor, the 3 off-color moxen, and mind's desire is also interesting as well. I for one am interested to playtest it and see how it works out, I would like to hear what other people think about that article. Who knows, maybe this is a step in the right direction for the revival of TPS?

[Marske]

I don't really think the decklist he suggested is a lot better then the list Steve , Paul and me play

I've read the article and to be honest he makes a LOT of faulty assumptions and statements in it. I'll run you guys through them to give you my views on it all

high mulligan ratio

This is just not true, almost every hand with mana in it is keepable, the only thing you have to realize is what you're going to do with it. Because of the high "bomb" ratio the deck has if you keep a hand that he suggested to be mulligan worthy:

2 Moxen, 2 Dark Ritual and a Force of Will (this hand might be keepable in rare circumstances, but on the play against an unknown opponent mulliganing seems correct).

every bomb you topdeck is a win... the hand my look like crap and not going anywhere soon, but if you just grab 1 single tutor it could be easily game over. Steve has gone indepth to this sort of thing in his article Mastering TPS and I've had countless hands with this kind of stuff as well. This hand isn't keepable in rare circumstances but in MOST circumstances.

inability to recover from disruption

And again this is not true, I've had my hand Duressed away, battled spheres and you usually face graveyard hate. These are all things TPS can handle.

vulnerability to hate cards

Every hate card (except extirpate which you can play around) can be dealt with. Every deck has trouble facing hate dedicated to their strategy and obv TPS is no different this statement holds no logical grounds what so ever. It's like saying Drains suck because they lose to beatz !!1!.

not enough blue cards for Force of Will

TPS as Steve Suggested and the way I run it has 17 blue cards and 17 black cards. more then enough to support foW (15 is the bare minimum)

The vulnerability to hate cards, particularly Null Rod and Chalice of the Void, is a problem that can't be overlooked. With Fish decks on the rise due to the popularity of Mana Drain decks, it is likely that you have to face an increased amount of Null Rod.

Null rod has NEVER EVER cause me problems, along with Chalice. TPS was build to function under the assumption that you're opponent WILL have turn 1 trinisphere online. Which imo is a far superior hate piece then Null rod or Chalice. You need to know how to deal with them but in no way does the deck scoop to these hate pieces.

In my testing, Grim Tutor has been the weakest tutor by far. You often have to use a Dark Ritual to cast it, making it difficult to chain plays unless you have multiple accelerators. Getting it countered is often a 2 for 1 for your opponent. Imperial Seal was okay but hasn't impressed me. All the topdeck tutors have the problem that they are 2 for 1 for your opponent if he's able to counter the tutored spell, so I only want to run the very best.

This is complete nonsense, people will most likely not counter your tutor spell in my experience except a Grim, DT when you're obviously going combo that turn if it resolves. Turn 1 Grim tutor to setup is never going to get countered along with any topdeck tutor.

TPS isn't concerned as much with card quantity, but card quality.

TPS runs NO draw spells except Brainstorm, Ponder, Recall. The rest of the deck is focussed on card QUALITY. Getting that single card you need (tutors) and even Ponder and Brainstorm serve this purpose. The only cards that give you card QUANTITY are Bargain and Necro and those I consider game winning bombs. Adding stuff like Carefull study and Serum visions and confidant make you want card QUANTITY which imo isn't the correct way to play making you vulnerable to duress effects.

The focus of his article is to say cards like Moxen (free storm and mana) desire (game winner) Tolarian (awesome under null rod with free moxen out) are all worse then running Carefull study (making you discard bombs), Serum Visions (worse then any other cantrip you have) and Dark Confidant (with the decks high mana curve you're also likely to get killed by an opponent that's playing GWSx, TPS, Grim Long, Beatz)

I don't really see any viability to taking TPS in the direction he suggested, i've seen decklist like he suggested before and they suffer greatly from the fact that they don't have the broken topdecks TPS has. I may sound very negative, which I obviously am, this article was full of wrong ideas and crazy assumptions imho.

[neotrophy]

It is an interesting article.  But I do have to agree with marske for the most part.  I also think that the sideboard plan against Stax is telling.  Tombstalker, and  a single copy each of Hurkyl's Recall and Swamp ain't going to cut it.  The man plan is weak, and, as maske points out, the deck was invented to deal with a first turn 3Sphere.  I think that the "need" for the man plan comes mostly from the potential explosiveness and broken topdecks being taken out of the deck.  The presence of Dark Confidant on the deck does possibly make a man plan a little stronger, though.

I'm actually interested by the fact that he brings in Engineered Explosives in every matchup but some of the Drain ones.  It seems strong, and given that it does comes in in almost every matchup, possibly even strong strong enough to make it to the maindeck as a singleton.  It's not like it's useless against Tez. Particularly now that they're more like to be packing Dark Confidant, an EE at 2 seems a fairly reasonable play.

[hitman]

TPS can't play Dark Confidant and Force of Will in the same deck with as many high casting cost cards as the deck plays.  I understand the reasoning behind the Serum Visions and Careful Study but I think he's cutting too many good cards to do it.  I also found Fact or Fiction bad in TPS and cut it a long time ago, along with Misdirection.  My only mainboard differences between Steve's list are two Sleight of Hand for Fact or Fiction and Misdirection.  Despite what Marske says about TPS's high variance, I've found it to be true that the deck does exhibit high variance even though I keep razor's edge hands like he does.  My biggest problem with opening hands is that I'll have little mana and expensive cards in hand, reflecting my decision to cut a high casting cost card like Fact or Fiction which largely does nothing.  You dig five cards deep but that play probably cost you your turn whether you do it on your opponent's end step or your mainphase.  The deck took a huge hit with the restriction of Brainstorm because the card acted like a transition point between high casting cost cards and the mana to cast them.  For one blue you were able to transition much easier.  The closest card I've found to Brainstorm in TPS is Sleight of Hand.  To dig as deep as it does and not require to pass the turn is important.  Serum Visions digs deeper but at the cost of a turn.  TPS wants to explode earlier rather than later.  When your opponent is able to hold up multiple counterspells and the mana to cast them reduces TPS's advantage.

[Marske]

@Hitman,
I've cut misdirection as well in my current build, it seems to have lost a lot of it's potency. I'm not sure what to replace FoF with although your suggestion has intrigued me, I'll be sure to give that a try soon. I'm not so sure if FoF really is that bad, because it has been both awful and great for me in the past, additional testing will prove what the best option for this slot will be.

[Ufactor]

IMHO, I concur that FoF is awful.  The replacement is usually whatever scouting tells me the morning of a tournament.  If there are lots of people sleaving up Fish and Stax, then I add extra bouncel.  If it's all about control, then I put in the ninth permission spell (Misdirection, Thoughtseize, etc.).  Relic of Progenitus, or even quirkier options suddenly seem plausible, once you see what other ppl are playing.