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Author Topic: ***Vintage Adept Q & A: NOW TAKING QUESTIONS***  (Read 27824 times)
Will
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« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2010, 02:34:46 am »

My question is about what levels of information you should reveal or be willing to reveal to your opponent for the benefit of the game you are in.  To clarify this question I propose a scenario: I am playing TPS, and am preparing to "go off" on the second turn playing out a bunch of spells that would significantly influence my Storm count but would not necessarily let my opponent know I am playing a Storm based deck.  At which point should a player start tallying Storm to reduce confusion and/or possible cheating in the end game procedure or doing something similar to this in a match?
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« Reply #31 on: March 24, 2010, 08:31:20 pm »

So I have a question about a punt/punt situation.
 If your opponent leads with, say a mox ruby, and you have a force of what is your initial reaction. Do you assume they're playing combo? Do you try and stop them there? Do you hold your force for a bomb? What if they played a lotus?
When I  say "lead" I'm assuming no other cards have hit the table, no lands, leylines, or cards of any kind. Lets assume you know your opponent, its game one, and they occasionally play combo.
You can fail either way and it would be an epic punt regardless of which mistake gets made. Forcing or not. What would be the ideal approach this situation
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« Reply #32 on: May 25, 2010, 01:10:50 am »

Here is a a topic I think will create a pretty good amount of feedback/conversation:

How do I play Magic?  When I ask this, assume I already know how the rules, phaes of the turns, how the stack works....etc.  I want you to teach me how to play vintage magic, competitively speaking of course.

I want to know the in general tricks, or rules of thumb, associated with learning the ropes of Type 1. I guess a good way of looking at this would be, if a type two player asked you to teach him all the nuances of the format in a nutshell.

Example: You play around Wasteland. Why? Playing blindly into a wasteland on turn one can lead to a game loss.  my example may not be correct in the sense of playing, but it's of the nature of what I am asking.
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« Reply #33 on: July 19, 2010, 03:53:53 pm »

Vintage Adepts: What do you think are good shuffling techniques/habits (pre-game or in-game)? Do you have any particular habits that serve you well? At any given tournament I'll see people who aren't thorough enough, people who I think are on overkill, and everything in between, which has made me curious for a while now.

Thanks for all your input.

-Ryan
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« Reply #34 on: July 19, 2010, 09:38:04 pm »

What are the forces that are keeping Dredge at 10-20% metagame penetration?  Why does its performance seem to be localized into certain areas (Manila, Philly, NY)?  At what point do players begin to crack 8 hate cards?  10 hate cards?  Is there a balancing mechanism inherent in fighting such a linear strategy - will its success create a feedback loop or has the deck gotten strong enough to move past that? What happens if the field is 30% Dredge?  50% Dredge?  At what point do you start playing MD  hate cards?  Will we ever reach that point, or is sufficient SB hate enough of a balancing mechanism?  Will combo ever be sufficiently popular to suppress Dredge or is hate the only answer?

Consider:
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1293&highlight=Bazaar_of_Baghdad
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1295&highlight=Bazaar_of_Baghdad
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1294&highlight=Bazaar_of_Baghdad
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1279&highlight=Bazaar_of_Baghdad
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1267&highlight=Bazaar_of_Baghdad
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1265&highlight=Bazaar_of_Baghdad
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1263&highlight=Bazaar_of_Baghdad
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1249&highlight=Bazaar_of_Baghdad

----

ANT seems to be resurgent of late.  Is this a response to metagame changes, or are players coming into Vintage b/c ANT is dead in Legacy?  What does an optimized ANT list look like?  Does it play 4 Preordain?

----

What is the best way to prepare for Vintage Champs?  What are the expected differences in a large Vintage tournament in the US?  Non-proxy Vintage in the US? 

----

Is it a bad thing that Vintage Champs is now the largest and most popularized Vintage tournament in the US? 

----

What type of deck is Terastodon Oath, and why?  Is it a big spell deck?  A control deck?  Combo control?  What are the inherent advantages to playing a deck with more weapons (Oath) compared to a deck with more draw and interaction (Tezz)?  What are the disadvantages?
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« Reply #35 on: September 07, 2010, 09:28:53 am »

.
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« Reply #36 on: November 18, 2010, 12:54:26 am »

Is it better for a deck (Workshops for instance) to be more redundant, (Espresso Stax) focusing on consistency or to play more of a catch-all role (5cStax) and which metagame makes which type more favorable? 
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« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2010, 12:32:31 pm »

My question:

When constructing a sideboard, do you pay attention to the main gameplan of the deck you are sideboarding against or to the possible sideboard plans that specific decks have against you?
Ichorid has to do the second thing and have sideboardoptions only to adress the hate the other player will bring in, but to what extend do you go that route when playing shops, drains, fish or combo?

As an additional question when would you consider sideboarding to a different strategy and becoming a different deck (cfr a sideboard to become an oath deck) Is it solely based on the amount of hate you expect for the archetype you are playing or are there other factors?


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« Reply #38 on: February 20, 2012, 06:22:43 pm »

For Reference:

Mark’s Comics, 2/4/12 Top 8 Decklists

7th – Michael Egan
Egan Spengler, The Drill Doctor


2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Mind’s Desire
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth’s Bargain
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
1 Repeal
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Underground Sea

SB:

1 Thoughtseize
3 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Steel Sabotage
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Extripate
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Perish





4th Place: Jesse Martin playing “TPS” (TPS)

Maindeck:
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
4 Force of Will
2 Hurkyl’s Recall
2 Cabal Ritual
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Timetwister
1 Time Walk
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Grim Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Yawgmoth’s Bargain
1 Necropotence
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Mind’s Desire
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mana Crypt
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Lotus Petal

Sideboard:
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Dismember
1 Virtue’s Ruin
2 Pithing Needle
2 Yixlid Jailer
4 Defense Grid
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Island



...I would particularly like to hear from Smmenen, Mastriano or Soly on this one.

Can someone explain this to me?  I don't quite understand the card choices ...First, these two lists are strikingly similar.  This might suggest that either the two pilots are part of the same test team, or that Jesse Martin liked Egan's list so much that he ran it on less than a week's notice.  Cards that are conspicuously missing from both lists are Tinker, Jar, and Blightsteel Colossus.  Was this in anticipation of Grafdigger's Cage?  Also of note is the use of multiple Cabal Rituals, which not only gets around Mental Misstep, but also speeds the deck up considerably.  It kind of looks like both decks are drifting south from TPS to Grim Long.  Both lists run seven fetches, which seems odd.  Finally, why no Imperial Seal??  Seal is one of my favorite cards, is ridiculous with Gitaxian Probe, and gives you a huge tempo swing in a lot of matches.
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« Reply #39 on: February 23, 2012, 08:21:53 pm »

Did I post this in the wrong place? If so, can someone move it to a separate thread in Ritual-Based Combo?
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« Reply #40 on: February 29, 2012, 11:31:37 am »

This is Mike Egan

For the record, Jesse and myself do not and have not worked together. One of the reasons the lists may look similar is that a vast majority of the cards are for the most part set in stone. In my opinion memory jar has been basically obsoleted by the printing of blightsteel colossus. Generally you need to pass the turn with an early jar to maximize its rate of success, since blightsteel kills in one turn, you might as well get that. As far as the exclusion of tinker and blightsteel, grafdiggers cage is certainly a concern, but in general I have had mixed thoughts on the card. TPS is a deck that relies on its synergy within its cards to overpower its opponent. Tinker and blightsteel do not help you combo off. A way to look at it would be similar to why the deck doesn't play time vault and voltaic key. In any deck, a fast tinker requires sacrificing a fair number of resources, thats ok of course if it ends in a win, but if the plan backfires, you are set back quite a bit. I usually play it in the sideboard because it is still good against non blue decks, but the printing of grafdiggers cage and its (at the time assumed) applications in shops led me to not want to expose myself to that anymore then yawg will.

The cabal rituals definitely speed the deck up, which you can use to capitalize on the fact that people are playing creatures that don't do anything. I added demonic consultation for the same reason, I was looking to play a more robust and powerful version. That slot was pretty much fought over grim tutor, but due to lack of testing I was uncomfortable playing it.

You ask about the high count of fetches, which just to note, Jesse was only playing 5 fetches. In my opinion playing a solid mana base is very important against shops, specifically playing around wasteland, you really want to hit your land drops with the intent to EOT bounce them and combo out. This is why I have 6 basics and a plethora of bounce spells after sideboarding. I would be interested to hear how Jesse built his mana base. The distribution of fetches confuses me, specifically the exclusion of 4 polluted delta but the inclusion of 1 swamp, additionally 4 underground sea seems like over kill to me. If I were to play his list, I would play the following mana base:

2 underground
6 fetch
2 island
2 swamp
1 tolarian academy

As far as imperial seal goes, I do not think it has a home in tps, the printing of git probe definitely helps, but I still believe it to be to detrimental. You mention the tempo it creates, however I believe it does the opposite. It gets completely blanked by jace, on top of that, the card advantage loss is too high. Furthermore, mental misstep hoses this card even harder, since a common line of play with imperial seal is t1 seal for Ancestral untap land duress recall, but its not too unlikely for them to have 2 counters. If you want to play seal, you may want to look towards a gush based deck, were you get to play preordain ontop of gush to assemble some sort of ghetto Demonic tutor.

I would like to add, that I have leaned towards bob tendrils in the past. However, I had assumed that people would be playing more creatures, and as such people would play more creature removal. I wanted to dodge that problem entirely by not playing dark confidant, and letting their bolts and dismembers rot in their hand. Being that creature removal seems to not be quite as prevalent as I had thought, going foward I am unsure as to advocate bob tendrils or a more straight foward TPS list. I would also like to give Jesse props for defense grid. The card seems quite insane, and I would definitely look to play it in the future.
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« Reply #41 on: March 05, 2012, 02:44:53 pm »

The cabal rituals definitely speed the deck up, which you can use to capitalize on the fact that people are playing creatures that don't do anything. I added demonic consultation for the same reason, I was looking to play a more robust and powerful version. That slot was pretty much fought over grim tutor, but due to lack of testing I was uncomfortable playing it.


If there is only one point that I agree with it's that speed is the best way to answer creature decks.  At the moment, Bant-Remora, Gro, Mono-blue Delver and a sprinkle of Noble-Fish are all seeing a surge in popularity.  As a parallel, MUD is expanding it's threat base with cards like Phyrexian Revoker and Kuldotha Forgemaster.  There is MUCH less time available to combo off and answer lock pieces, Grafdigger's Cage, Mental Misstep, Flusterstorm, etc. Yay for proactivity!!
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« Reply #42 on: July 28, 2013, 02:56:40 pm »

Does it actually matter what you play in vintage?
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« Reply #43 on: January 17, 2014, 08:49:50 am »

Not sure if that last question was rhetorical or not, but: yeah, I figure it does a great bunch. Why in God's green Earth wouldn't it?

(sorry for the necro)

As for my own question: What Blue-based deck, if any, has a favorable pre-board matchup against both Oath and Workshops?
You can ignore the rest of the metagame (I'm wrongfully neglecting the Blue mirror-matches and Fish-style decks, obviously). Suppose this is for a very specific and inbred metagame.

If such a deck does not exist (yet), what would it possibly look like?

I've been pondering about this for some time, but could not come up with a satisfying answer myself. Neither could my teammates, for that matter.

I've already gotten the following suggestions:
- BUG Fish, similar to what won the latest BoM. While I have confidance that this deck can beat up on Workshops, and Abrupt Decay is an excellent tool versus Oath, I'm still worried that a 14-creature deck is not the right answer against the card Oath of Druids. This is the response which I feel answers my question best, though, but I can't help but wonder if this is the only option.
- Tezzeret: While I have not yet played the so called "Turbo Tez" deck (think small + big Tezzeret, Monolith, multiple keys,...) myself, I do know from testing that Oath is not exacly a great pre-board matchup for "regular" Tezzeret (by which I mean the pretty traditional UBx combo-control-decks featuring 1-2 big Tezzerets as a finisher).
- Some people suuggested I "outbroken the Oath decks" by playing something like TPS or Gush Storm, but these al seem like poor choices against Workshop. The same can be said for Doomsday combo.

I'm curious about your take on this one.

Thanks,

Tom
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« Reply #44 on: January 17, 2014, 09:45:22 am »

Have you considered any variation of Landstill?  You out-draw and out-counter oath, while having a solid workshop match (engineered explosives is a beating).
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« Reply #45 on: January 17, 2014, 10:33:35 am »

Considered: yes. But I do not yet have (sufficient) experience/knowledge with/about the archetype to make any reasonable assumptions about it.

The little "testing" I have regarding the Oath vs Landstill matchup, existed of me slinging my own "Show&Oath"(*)-build, which I played at BoM Paris, against an old Null Rod-based Landstill deck I had lying around. This was purely to get a feel of how my Oath's maindeck played out in general, so you can't really call that relevant testing.
On the other hand, I slung that same list for 4-5 games against a buddy who played Landstill (U/R with Explosives) at BoM the night before the Vintage event, and murdered him pretty handily. Then at BoM itself, I encountered one mono-U Landstill player, which I also crushed.

However...that was the only match I actually won at the latest BoM (not counting the one bye I started the tournament with, nor the one I got after losing 5 times).

So my guess is that a) the aggressive Oath list I built apparently slaughters Landstill (this comes from a very small sample size of hardly relevant games, so take with a grain of salt) and b) that particular build is rubbish against the rest of the field. But I'm sure there are plenty of people here who are way more qualified than me to tell me how the Landstill vs Oath matchup should actually play out traditionally.

Grtz

(*) For those wondering what "Show&Oath" looks like:
3 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul
4 Oath
3 Show & Tell
1 Nature's Claim
1 Jace TMS
3 Preordain
1 Ponder
0 Blessing/Mem.Journey/...
0 Vault/Key or Tinker/Bot
10 Counters/Discardspells, including most notably a pair of Swan Songs
Rest: The usual U/B suspects, mana and power
Straight BUG-colors, Decays and Toxic Deluge in the side + pile o' MUD and Dredge-hate.
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« Reply #46 on: October 20, 2014, 11:17:54 pm »

Bluffing, and storm

1) You are playing a Tezzeret control deck and, on the play against an unknown opponent, draw a Mox heavy hand without much action. Think Sapphire-Jet-Island-Misty Rainforest-FoW-Blightsteel Colossus-Mana Drain.

Do you ever attempt to trick the opponent into believing you are playing a Storm deck, and try to make them FoW one of your Moxen?
If so, what out-of-game actions (such as announcing "Storm Count is one") and what in-game actions (such as fetching Underground Sea to bluff Dark Ritual) do you take to back up your bluff?

2) When you are not playing a ritual combo deck, do you ever carry around a life total pad that tells the story of a storm game on the page you have it open to prior to starting the match, in order to trick your opponent into making poor game 1 mulligan decisions?
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« Reply #47 on: January 14, 2016, 08:52:10 am »

I have a question, and I feel like it's incredibly basic but I need to know regardless.

When is the best time to cast Gush? I want to get into Gushbond but I really can't figure out how to efficiently use Gush.
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« Reply #48 on: January 14, 2016, 01:29:05 pm »

Steve Menendian wrote an incredibly helpful book on the topic of Gush and I believe it's still available at eternalcentral.com.  If you plan on playing the card Gush I would highly recommend purchasing his book!
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« Reply #49 on: January 14, 2016, 01:57:28 pm »

Holy necro, batman. I didn't even know this thread existed.

I have a question, and I feel like it's incredibly basic but I need to know regardless.

When is the best time to cast Gush? I want to get into Gushbond but I really can't figure out how to efficiently use Gush.

Simple answer is when you get the most value out of it. Generally on your third turn main phase so you can use the mana you float and hit your land drop. This isn't a hard and fast rule. If you don't need to Gush and can keep hitting land drop, you can wait. Alternatively, I've sandbagged Gush to fuel Flusterstorm during my opponent's turn. It's not formulaic and "proper" play will come with experience.
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« Reply #50 on: January 14, 2016, 02:58:36 pm »

Matt's answer is a good one.

In addition, I would say that the most common mistake I see people making is how frequently they desperation gush. If you are tapped out and your opponent casts treasure cruise, it is likely not correct to gush in response to try and find a force. The dividing line is hard to get completely correct, but if you err on the side of only desperation gushing in response to a truly game breaking spell, like will or tinker, you will be more likely to be correct.
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« Reply #51 on: January 14, 2016, 08:22:06 pm »

One mistake I have seen new players make with gush is casting it at the end of their opponent's turn. There are only a few situations where this is correct, as waiting until your main phase will allow you to make a land drop after gushing and take advantage of the mana boost. If you gush in a phase that is not your main phase, you are giving up that mana boost as well as potentially valuable tempo.
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« Reply #52 on: January 14, 2016, 10:36:04 pm »

One mistake I have seen new players make with gush is casting it at the end of their opponent's turn. There are only a few situations where this is correct, as waiting until your main phase will allow you to make a land drop after gushing and take advantage of the mana boost. If you gush in a phase that is not your main phase, you are giving up that mana boost as well as potentially valuable tempo.

Yeah unless you are hard casting it or have some interaction with yours or your opponents cards, its a sorcery.  In fact for new player just pretend it has sorcery written on it in general.
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« Reply #53 on: January 15, 2016, 12:49:27 am »

Thanks everyone for the responses, it really helped. And Sorry for Necro'ing a thread, I just saw the Q and A title and shot off a question  before seeing the dates.
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