Major Rules Changes Announced!!!

[zeus-online]

Well, they just nerfed alot of cards (including almost any bounce effect, since you can't stack damage and bounce your creature)...

I'm soo sad that they nerfed morphling It was one of my favorite creatures.

I don't like the changes to combat, the rest is somewhat "Meh". This also hurts players who where planning to get back into the game. Why was this necessary? I wonder if the 6th ed. changes had a similar effect on people.

[Sextiger]

Unless they suddenly decide to release a billion Wish-esque effects into standard soon, the Wish change is a huge slap in the face. 

[Purple Hat]

I don't like the casual disregard for Vintage that the DCI is showing with this announcement "mana burn doesn't effect 99.9% of games, the most effected cards will be Mana Drain and Tolarian Academy."  They left off forbidden orchard, but still...saying that an effect that changes how Mana Drain works doesn't effect Vintage games is....concerning.  When combined with the "explaination" provided when they evicerated the format last year it just goes to confirm that at a minimum they don't care about Vintage and they might even find us mildly annoying.  Treating your longest standing customers in such a backhanded manner seems like a good idea.

[Demonic Attorney]

Threads merged, please continue all discussion on the subject here.

[Troy_Costisick]

Unless they suddenly decide to release a billion Wish-esque effects into standard soon, the Wish change is a huge slap in the face. 

Really?  Explain to me how often the Wishes are actually used in tournament decks?  Especially to get something that's been removed from the game.

[zeus-online]

I've wished for ancestral recall on several occasions, although that was with T1 Psychatog....I don't think it's all that relevant, but it's still a slight crack at the wishes.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

Unless they suddenly decide to release a billion Wish-esque effects into standard soon, the Wish change is a huge slap in the face. 

Really?  Explain to me how often the Wishes are actually used in tournament decks?  Especially to get something that's been removed from the game.

ever play doomsday? or sb r/d + extra dude in oath for cap?

[Tempus]

Did you never Burning Wish for a card you removed with Diminishing Returns or Demonic Consultation? I did and I do often (yep, Legacy TES)

Sucks, if that possibility is taken...

And Doomsday for sure. Research will be useless and Doomsday becomes weaker than it is now

[Purple Hat]

I just love that they made changes that require complete rebuilds of certain decks for the sake of Flavor.

[ConF1ictZ]

Ichorid new vocabulary

i exile my golgari thug, so ichorid come into the battlefield

i cast my cabal therapy, and sacrifice my narcomoeba from the battlefield

leyline, EXILE YOUR GRAVEYARD MAN!

[Phoenix888]

I like the new changes.  Things seem like they'll now work in a more logical way which makes the game more immersive for all players.  The sky is not falling.

[Harlequin]

In any game, certian phrases don't always make sense.  Its not like "Library" made any sense.

"I cast Submerge on your Akroma, She goes on top of your Library"
"Ok... she has wings so she flies off it   "

(not originally my example, but I'm reposting it)

Edit Would you prefer if Living Death read:
Each player moves all card_type-104 in zone-0074B to zone-146A, then preform action-1167BQ all card_type-104 he or she controls, then moves all cards he or she put into zone-146A this way to zone-0024A.

At some point we have to acknowledge that we play a fantasy game...

[Implacable]

After thinking about it a bit, my reactions to all the changes, damage exclude, range from positive to neutral.  I like the extension of the Magic metaphor to things like "battlefield" and "cast" (yes!).  The end-of-turn change I heartily approve of, and I really don't give a damn about manaburn.

That being said, the combat damage changes are what I take issue with, and they truly do reduce my interest in ever playing Limited again, which I used to do frequently.  They flat-out make the game dumber; I've played with lots of people who can't understand the stack,  but nobody who can't understand how to assign damage.  So my issue with the "no-tricks-post-blockers" change is that it makes the game less fun for me, but my issue with the combat damage assignment change is that there is absolutely no reason for it, and it will actually confuse and frustrate.

[DubDub]

Unless they suddenly decide to release a billion Wish-esque effects into standard soon, the Wish change is a huge slap in the face. 

Really?  Explain to me how often the Wishes are actually used in tournament decks?  Especially to get something that's been removed from the game.

Many people were saying that Burning Wish's best use if unrestricted would be in a control deck that wants to cast Yawgmoth's Will multiple times.  That can't happen anymore.

From the various unrestriction threads in the advanced forum:

I think that the unrestriction of burning wish would be a very healthy choice.  Burning wish is no where near as powerful of a combo inabler without lion's eye diamond. Who knows, maybe a life from the loam deck may be viable in vintage afterwards, or even some sort of 4x burning wish control deck.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37884.0  - 3rd page.

Burning wish will most likely fuel a control deck if anything. 4 LED's was many years ago, and without it burning wish is not just a "red demonic tutor for Y. will".

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37995.0

Quotes used without permission, I hope the authors don't mind.

[oneofchaos]

Well at least people can't complain about how magic has a steep learning curve anymore.  The combat step has been reduced to yugioh/duelmasters level.  CIPT has been replaced by battlefield?  I am totally going to be confused because battlefield implies battle, and lands don't battle..so rampant growth for a land to put it in the battlefield?  Seriously? 

I liked some of the changes, the mulligan one was fair.  Even the deathtouch and lifelink were fair, no reason anybody deserved to gain extra instances of the lifelink trigger.  I always thought it should have worked the way it will now. 

I hate the elimination of Mana burn.  Mana burn only really happened when you were careless or you played with cards that produced large amounts of mana and you had nothing to spend it on (Tolarian, Drain, Shops, etc).  Mana burn's elimination is going to change the game for sure.  Combo players don't need to worry about burning from any floating mana.  Drains can be used to take down ANYTHING without repercussion.

Removing how damage stacks is fairly stupid.  One of the things I first learned when my friend taught me to play magic, was that mogg fanatic was a 1/1 creature.  However, whenever one of my creatures fought it, it would usually trade with a 2/2.  This removes a TON of skill from the game.  The rule should have just been changed too "players cannot play spells or activated abilities during the combat step" if they were trying to eliminate skill. 

My only hope is that June 20th is going to be huge for vintage, because every other thing wizards does ends up hurting vintage.

[Troy_Costisick]

Unless they suddenly decide to release a billion Wish-esque effects into standard soon, the Wish change is a huge slap in the face. 

Really?  Explain to me how often the Wishes are actually used in tournament decks?  Especially to get something that's been removed from the game.

Many people were saying that Burning Wish's best use if unrestricted would be in a control deck that wants to cast Yawgmoth's Will multiple times.  That can't happen anymore.

Well then, that just strengthens the case for its unrestriction which is a net positive.  But c'mon guys, Doomsday?  RnD as a foil to Jester's Cap in an Oath deck?  How's that relevant in today's meta?  When's the last time any wish or RnD made the top 50 of Morphling's cards played list?  If that's all we're losing then I'd hardly call it a "huge slap to the face" of Vintage players especially given the implicit hint that cards are on the way that will return cards from the Exile zone.  It's a small tweak of seldom used cards.  It's certainly not targeted targeted hosing of certain types as Sextiger made it out to be.

[Prometheon]

The whole reason they are adding the "line up blockers" rule (which is stupid) is so that damage prevention will work, since combat damage no longer uses the stack. I don't think it's worth it (eliminating the ability to spread damage around and pyroclasm after, etc.) Why not change the nature of damage prevention rather than change the nature of BLOCKING?

Ex: I use Orim's ability to prevent the next 3 damage to any target creature or player. For the rest of the turn, whenever a creature or player would be dealt damage, I get prompted "Do you wish to prevent 3 damage to this target?" If it has shroud or Pro: White, I don't get this prompt.

Easy, intuitive, and preserves how blocking USED to work.

[TopSecret]

I actually like these changes.

They may not be as intuitive or necessary for us veterans,
but from my experience, these rules will make a lot more sense to new players.
This is especially true for the changes to combat.

I've known a lot of people who have tried to learn Magic,
but couldn't make much progress, because they could not understand the stack during combat.
This isn't just because of how complicated it is.

The stack doesn't make sense to newer players because it actually does
break the metaphor the rest of the game tries to establish.

It always confuses the crap out of new players when I block with a bunch of dudes
and then sacrifice them to my Nantuko Husk, after damage is on the stack, to make the Husk survive combat.

New players usually understand all the math, and what I'm saying,
but they can't understand the inconsistency in the flavor of the game:
My creatures still deal damage, even though they're not there.

This is especially huge because it takes place during combat.
Y'know... That phase that other formats have? lol
The combat step is a very big deal to new players, especially in terms of flavor,
because that's when they get to swing with their Craw Wurm. They've been waiting a whole turn to get in there with their fantastical monster!
So, inconsistency of fantasy flavor is especially detrimental during this phase of the game.

Explaining that creatures can get sacrificed and still deal damage
is like telling new players the tooth fairy doesn't exist.
Seriously, it just alienates a lot of new players who, when first picking up the game,
just want to cast and attack with awesome monsters.
If you don't believe me, try teaching fantasy goobers about this part of the game. It's ridiculous.

I think that the changes in combat will help new players learn the game,
and that Wizards made a good decision for the long term health of Magic.

And for those that suggest these changes are dumbing down Magic: Yes.
Yes they are.
But,
this game is so fricking complicated,
I'm sure that those who enjoy technical skill can find other areas of the game to focus on.

And for those who enjoyed stacking damage as a tool for pwning noobs :
Do you really need any more advantages over newer players?
New players suck at Magic, and this rules change won't change that.
It won't prevent them from building awful 80 card decks and poorly planning their future turns.
Heck, by most games' standards, isn't Magic combat still pretty darn complex?
So, there are still plenty of opportunities to use technical skills in combat. 'Just not using stacked damage.

[Harlequin]

I agree with TopSecret

Before you could Outsmart newbs who didn't understand the rules.

Now you can Outsmart veterans who can't make the mental shift to the new rules!  And thus Mis-play thinking they are being 'Sneaky.' 

[wiley]

I agree with TopSecret

This.  Even though I still don't understand the 'dumb trample' stuff.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

Unless they suddenly decide to release a billion Wish-esque effects into standard soon, the Wish change is a huge slap in the face.  

Really?  Explain to me how often the Wishes are actually used in tournament decks?  Especially to get something that's been removed from the game.

Many people were saying that Burning Wish's best use if unrestricted would be in a control deck that wants to cast Yawgmoth's Will multiple times.  That can't happen anymore.

Well then, that just strengthens the case for its unrestriction which is a net positive.  But c'mon guys, Doomsday?  RnD as a foil to Jester's Cap in an Oath deck?  How's that relevant in today's meta?  When's the last time any wish or RnD made the top 50 of Morphling's cards played list?  If that's all we're losing then I'd hardly call it a "huge slap to the face" of Vintage players especially given the implicit hint that cards are on the way that will return cards from the Exile zone.  It's a small tweak of seldom used cards.  It's certainly not targeted targeted hosing of certain types as Sextiger made it out to be.

By "c'mon guys, doomsday?" do you mean "yeah, I remember when next level doomsday with gush was a complete house."?
And yes, oath players have sb r/d. Just because you weren't aware of it, doesn't mean thing like NLdoomsday weren't great and people didn't play them and top 8 with it.

[DubDub]

Well then, that just strengthens the case for its unrestriction which is a net positive.

I am totally in agreement that Burning Wish should be unrestricted (don't really want to broach this subject, since this isn't the place).  I thought it should be before this nerf.  But making it into a completely irrelevant card is embarrassing.  The unrestriction of Grim Monolith is (I think) widely expected because it's such a bad card.  Burning Wish is now in Grim Monolith's category, and I don't think that's a good thing.

What I'm trying to say is, I'd rather have Burning Wish be restricted and do something, than unresticted and useless.  Ignoring these changes, if they had unrestricted Burning Wish and simultaneously given it errata to say it can only fetch sideboard cards wouldn't the community be upset?  That's what's effectly happened (though they haven't unrestricted it yet...).  Perhaps they'll simply print another round of Exile-Wishes and call it good, we'll see.

[FAVO!!!!1]

So, before turning this thread into a 2nd flame-infested trollinggrotto, let us just give 'them' some credit for keeping a freaking card game alive for so long. And yes, things change and although some change is highly welcomed (i.e. yes we can) some change is not. But if these changes keep my favorite game alive, hey, I guess I'll just have to learn some new rules. And unlearn some old ones that I liked 10million times better than the new ones. But this is not a game published by / in Soviet Russia, so bucks need to made. And bucks are made through new customers mostly.

Instead of reiterating what a lot of people have said, I'm just gonna quote this little tidbit and expand upon it.

One thing I will give Wizards credit for is admitting when they make a mistake. Look at the Affinity days, Trinispheres dominance, or even last years metagame consisting of Flash and Gush. Mistakes happen, and these people are doing a damn good job at keeping this game alive for 16 years. And I look at it this way - if it wasn't for this game, I wouldn't be who I am today or have some of the friends I do have. And yes, the majority of us probably stuck through the thick and thin. So kudos to you Wizards, for keeping this alive.

On a side note: I have always looked at Mana Burn as a form of Heart Burn... Flavorful Heart Burn. Too much spicy stuff is bad for the gut. It leaves you slow, in a little bit of pain, and not feeling too good afterwords. And mana sure is spicy.

[Diakonov]

While I agree that it's probably for the best in the long run, no one can deny the fun factor of abusing the stack.  It made minute effects playable, and made for more "whoah awesome!" moments.  It's fun to early-pick cards like Momentary Blink and feel good about it.

As far as the terminology changes go, I have mixed feelings.  I have no problem saying "exiled," since "removed from the game" always had sort of a contradictory flavor to begin with.  Ironically, the fact that you can't Wish for the card anymore means that its original terminology would now actually be more accurate.

"Battlefield" seems kinda unnecessary.  I guess it makes more sense now, though, as most creatures and enchantments printed these days show depictions of battlefield-oriented moments.  In the past the game had more of an adventurous flavor to it, involving Homer's Odyssey-like encounters with mythical creatures.  Now it's all soldiers and armored angels and shit.

I plan on continuing to say "in play," as it just feels right to me.

I still use some other outdated words that have since been removed.  "Buried," for example.  Why did they ever get rid of that word?  Now I can never remember which cards Destroy and which ones Destroy and That Creature Cannot be Regenerated.

[FAVO!!!!1]

While I agree that it's probably for the best in the long run, no one can deny the fun factor of abusing the stack.  It made minute effects playable, and made for more "whoah awesome!" moments.  It's fun to early-pick cards like Momentary Blink and feel good about it.

I agree with that. Some of my favorite moments to recap while playing and/or watching are those "oh shit, I made a techy play" moments. And sure, there might be less of them. But look at it as another rule to master. Honestly, losing Mana Burn worries me more than losing a step in combat. So we lose a chance to get all techy with our opponents. That is now one new obstacle we have to get over to win our games.

So why does losing Mana Burn worries me more? Cause now people can be a little more reckless with their resources. Cause the complication of trying to combo out or Draining a big spell with an empty hand no longer has the inherent risk of doing such an action. The fact that Magic loses a tool to teach people how to preserve their resources or take risks is not there. I feel like this is a real life concept that this game has taught me and maybe some other people, and now other people will not have the pleasure of figuring this out either.

Sure, someone could learn this stuff in real life too. But your talking to a guy who seen someone lose almost a million bucks because he made a bad business decision that could have been prevented if he took the time to weight his risk. And personally, I rather take 4 points of mana burn from a drain than learn this lesson in a real life scenario like that.

[thecman]

I know the mulligan rule update is somewhat minor compared to the impact that some of the others will have, but am I the only one who sees mulligan decisions becoming essentially staring contests?  Especially at high levels of competition, where you want the most amount of information about what your opponent is going to do before you make a decision.  At least with the old method players took turns going first.

Edit: I agree with FAVO.  Mana burn never really has a huge impact on how a game turns out (in my experience) but it does act as a reminder to make you keep of what's happening in the game.  Eliminating it seems to just encourage sloppy play.

Edit 2: The mulligan change actually makes sense to me now and I think it is a good thing (thanks DubDub for posting the details two posts down).  The way the new rule works is actually pretty close to the way I see people actually mulligan (you're gonna mull, ok me too).

[Metanoia]

I just love these changes. Especially with the detailed explanations they give. They all make a lot of sense to me. I played Magic from 1995 to 2005 and I remember HATING the 6th edition changes. Looking back now they were one of the best things ever to happen to the game.
I haven't played in 4 years but I am thinking about getting back in the game. Besides these changes the new Planeswalkers and small things like all core sets being black bordered now really show that Wizards are doing everything to keep the game healthy and fresh.

[DubDub]

I know the mulligan rule update is somewhat minor compared to the impact that some of the others will have, but am I the only one who sees mulligan decisions becoming essentially staring contests?  Especially at high levels of competition, where you want the most amount of information about what your opponent is going to do before you make a decision.  At least with the old method players took turns going first.

I don't think it will come down to 'blinking first', the article outlines a process:
1. Person on the play announces keep or mulligan.  Proceed to step 2.
2. 'Next' player announces.  Repeat this step until all players have made an announcement, then proceed to step 3.
3. If a non-zero number of players announced mulligan, then all players who announced mulligan resolve that choice and proceed to step 4.  Otherwise proceed to step 6.
4. 'First' person to have taken a mulligan in the last round makes their announcement for this round.  Proceed to step 5.
5. 'Next' person to have taken a mulligan in the last round makes their announcement for this round.  Repeat this step until all players who took a mulligan last round have made an announcement then proceed to step 3.
6.  BEGIN.

The difference in a duel is that the drawing player will only know the playing player's first N mulligan decisions before making their Nth decision, where before they knew all their opponent's decisions.  And the playing player will know their opponent's first N decisions before making their N+1st decision.

Overall this change favors the person on the play versus the previous rule (assuming one can gather information from mulligan decisions, which I do).  It should also save time, which was the primary reason.

[policehq]

The change made to combat is comparable to the change they made when you die as soon as your life total becomes zero and not when the end of a phase has arrived and your life total is zero or less. I think that was a pretty neutral change, and I think this is going to be looked back at as a neutral change. I mean, it was fun, playing enchantress and going down to -45 life and then winning the game, but still, it's just different now. Not a big deal.

As far as terminology goes, it really doesn't matter either. It's just like Creature - Human Wizard versus "Summon Creature" except, ironically, the latter is more flavorful, and these changes are made to add flavor. But oh well.

Nothing is disconcerting about this, don't be dramatic.

[meadbert]

So if I have Serum Powder in my hand and I choose to mulligan, do I have to announce whether I am using Serum Powder to mulligan?