Eastman
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« on: June 19, 2009, 03:33:31 pm » |
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I've been working on a pretty promising deck for a while now, but due to today's announcements I think I'm going to start focusing a lot more on CA. As a result, I'd like to just go ahead and post the list and some of my thoughts here. I'd really encourage anyone interested to try it out and see if they can make any headway.
1. The List: Hermit Druid Combo
4 Hermit Druid
8 Combo Pieces 4 Narcomoeba 1 Dread Return 1 Sutured Ghoul 1 Lord of Extinction 1 Dragon Breath
7 Fixing and Finding 4 Sleight of Hand 3 Night's Whisper
12 Protection/Disruption 4 Force of Will 3 Duress 2 Cabal Therapy 3 Repeal [Bounces tormod's crypt, pithing needle, relic, etc.]
9 Broken 1 Ancestral Recall 1 Brainstorm 1 Ponder 1 Time Walk 1 Demonic Tutor 1 Vampiric Tutor 1 Imperial Seal 1 Tinker 1 Darksteel Colossus
20 Mana 7 Fetches 2 Bayou 2 Trop 2 U. Sea 5 Moxen 1 Lotus 1 Pendelhaven (yes, and it's awesome - saves druid from darkblast and, once in awhile makes relevantly large narcomoebas)
2. How the combo works
The combo works so that, if you activate hermit druid, you win that turn. 1. Activate hermit druid during your first main phase 2. Mill your entire library, putting into play up to 4 Narcomoebas (and you need to bring in at least 2) 3. Sacrifice Narcos/Hermit to Cabal Therapy EITHER (a) your opponent, to get any counters out of their hand OR (b) yourself, to drop any combo pieces you drew into the yard 4. Sacrifice Narcos/Hermit to Dread Return a Sutured Ghoul. Remove Lord of Extinction to Sutured Ghoul, and attach Dragon Breath. You now have a hasty trampling dude with power and toughness both at around 40-70. 5. Attack with super gigantic sutured ghoul lord of extinction hybrid fatty dude
As you can see, this is very fast and simple. If you mull to three, and those three cards are land, mox, hermit druid, then you are going to have a turn 2 win. Hermit Druid is a 1-card combo for 2 mana, which is practically unheard of.
The presence of DSC in the deck buys you a turn if anything goes wrong, gives you an alternate win (in addition to hard-casting an enormous lord of extinction), and makes sure you have the auto-win against an un-suspecting painter/grindstone type.
3. Comparison to Oath of Druids
The easiest comparison for hermit druid is to oath. They both have the word druid in there, both cost 1G, and both take advantage of milling yourself. Pros: Hermit Druid is much faster than Oath, since the first turn you get after casting him you can win. Also, Hermit Druid doesn't require having a forbidden orchard in order to work. These in concert make HD a much much faster kill condition than oath of druids Cons: Hermit Druid is much more susceptible to hate, and takes up a couple more slots. Essentially, he is more fragile. But I think in the fast format we've got, the speed and ability to combo-off without a supporting orchard makes HD significantly better than oath.
4. Overall thoughts
First, the deck is surprisingly resilient to mana denial and good against shops. Because you only ever need to tap a total of 3 mana over 2 turns in order to work the combo, you can usually win even if you only get to use each of your lands once. Plus, you're completely null rod proof. In fact, I've played the deck with MD null rods quite a bit, since they shut down relic and t-crypt. Nothing in your combo is hampered by a null rod.
Second, the deck's main problem is post board games. It isn't in the bad situation that Ichorid is in because it has a full mana base and a ton of draw and tutors. You can play a Hermit Druid despite their yixlid jailer or whatnot, and use all the deck's resources to find something to bounce the jailer and win right away. But, the matchup does go down entering games 2 and 3. Honestly, I've still been working on the sideboard as well, and there are a few good options, but given the flux I expect the meta to be in, that probably isn't worth posting just yet.
That's enough for starters. Let me know if you have any questions or suggestions.
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Lurker101
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« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2009, 03:59:26 pm » |
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I love it! I'll have to test it out some on MWS and the SB could be tricky. It looks like a lot of fun to play and also seems less vulnerable to hate than Ichorid (plus your dread return removes their bridges) and generally faster and overall better than Oath. I always liked Angry Ghoul and it's cool to see a varient of it that could be Vintage viable. Have you thought about maybe putting Seedtime in the SB in case you're going against a deck like Tezz and your Druid gets countered and you need to buy time? Also Worldy Tutor could work as an additional way to get an early druid out but you'd probably need to cut Sleight of Hand and that probably isn't worth it. Just a thought. After some more thought I don't think that would work but you could SB Leyline of Lifeforce so that you don't need to worry at all about your druid being countered ( and opposing creatures aside from Jailer shouldn't be much of an issue here).
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« Last Edit: June 19, 2009, 07:13:46 pm by Lurker101 »
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Blue Lotus
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« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2009, 05:02:50 pm » |
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1) Using Dread Return to remove bridge is not even close to an option. Edit: I was thinking Leyline. With the current version of the deck you could probably race ichorid anyway.
2) I've fiddled around with Hermit Druids decks too and ended up using Krosan reclamation + Yawgmoths will. It cost more mana, takes an extra turn to work, but has infinitely less combo pieces and if you draw your combo piece (Will) you're ahead not behind. Just something to think about. An issue with this win is the 1G needed to cast Druid, 1GG needed the next turn, and the 2B needed the following turn.
3) A final idea would be to use a drain shell and do something like drop druid early, drain something big, pay XGBR, and flashback recoup/will
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yellow_siomai
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« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2009, 11:00:09 pm » |
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I normally see hermit druid decks packing tarmogoyfs making their sutured ghouls really big, but my question is; does the same work for Lord of Extinction? I mean does the PT modifiers make it big regardless wherever it is i.e. like the graveyard?
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nataz
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Mighty Mighty Maine-Tone
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« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2009, 12:00:16 am » |
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What about melding this with CA and adding Bazaars, entomb and reanimates?
Flash edit*
Did just that, but still had 1 major problem. It's faster then oath, but with a ton less disruption. Its slower then ichorid, and still open to gy hate. I'm honestly not convinced, but I'll keep trying. The problem is druid not having haste. you don't really have a lot of protection for him, so often times your "fast" games just throw him out there and pray they don't find an answer during their turn.
For ref, when I kinda liked reanimate with bazaars. Throw in a riftstone portal and you can even get the needed green to activate druid. I like entomb + reanimate better then a standard tutor because it works off a single mana source if you need it too, cutting the druids costs from 2cc to 1cc.
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« Last Edit: June 20, 2009, 12:25:51 am by nataz »
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I will write Peace on your wings and you will fly around the world
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zeus-online
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« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2009, 04:05:54 am » |
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Hermit druid is a very broken card, but i'm not sure if this deck is really all that good? The problem is the same as WGD, graveyard hate is in every SB thanks to ichorid.
Maybe chain of vapor should be there instead of repeal? Repeal isn't all that good against leyline, which atleast 1 deck plays in the main.
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The truth is an elephant described by three blind men.
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Furious George
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« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2009, 11:50:20 am » |
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"Remove Lord of Extinction to Sutured Ghoul, and attach Dragon Breath. "
Lord of Extinction has power and toughness of 0 in any zone other than in play...so removing it for Ghoul won't work.
My bad -- apparently static abilities that set power and toughness do, in fact work in other zones -- this was made true as of future site.
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« Last Edit: June 20, 2009, 12:50:45 pm by Furious George »
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Darkenslight
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« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2009, 04:46:05 pm » |
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Uh, Concordant Crossroads? Gives all creatures haste for  . That way, you don't really need Dragon's Breath; you could then runn it in a GWB shell, for added protection and tutoring (Eladamri's call, enlightened tutor, Chant, etc., along with Duress and Thoughtseize)
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nataz
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« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2009, 08:10:00 pm » |
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thats def a cool idea.
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I will write Peace on your wings and you will fly around the world
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oneofchaos
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« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2009, 09:06:52 pm » |
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Is a singleton bridge decent since you can reclaim all the creatures you sacrifice at a one for one basis?
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Somebody tell Chapin how counterbalance works?
"Of all the major Vintage archetypes that exist and have existed for a significant period of time, Oath of Druids is basically the only won that has never won Vintage Championships and never will (the other being Dredge, which will never win either)." - Some guy who does not know vintage....
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JodahAE
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« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2009, 11:32:51 pm » |
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With LoE not working like you wanted consider the benefit of replacing several cards with creature variations, Specifically replace Nights Whisper with Street Wraith, and perhaps some off color moxes with Elvish Spirit Guide. That way either could be RFG to pump Ghoul. Also im not sure that DSC couldn't be replaced by Inkwell, I know you lose to mill but the pitch to FoW might be a bonus. Those creature additions as well as RFG the remaining hermits you could definitely pump your Ghoul to lethal and swing.
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Necrologia
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« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2009, 11:40:56 pm » |
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Uh, Concordant Crossroads? Gives all creatures haste for  . That way, you don't really need Dragon's Breath; you could then runn it in a GWB shell, for added protection and tutoring (Eladamri's call, enlightened tutor, Chant, etc., along with Duress and Thoughtseize) I don't see why you would spend G for Crossroads when Dragon's Breath makes your big dude hasty for free. Giving Druid haste seems rather useless as it requires 1GGG to drop a Crossroads, Druid, and Activate at the same time.
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This space for rent, reasonable rates
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Nomad
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« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2009, 11:49:05 pm » |
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I don't really see a benefit to Repeal over Chain of Vapour, which also bounces Leyline. Even in the case of Needle on Druid or Tormod's Crypt in play.
And it gets rid of Gaddock Teeg...
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nataz
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« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2009, 11:32:45 pm » |
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Uh, Concordant Crossroads? Gives all creatures haste for  . That way, you don't really need Dragon's Breath; you could then runn it in a GWB shell, for added protection and tutoring (Eladamri's call, enlightened tutor, Chant, etc., along with Duress and Thoughtseize) I don't see why you would spend G for Crossroads when Dragon's Breath makes your big dude hasty for free. Giving Druid haste seems rather useless as it requires 1GGG to drop a Crossroads, Druid, and Activate at the same time. I thought it was interesting because you can go t1 crossroads and duress or tutor. Turn 2 play AND activate for the win.
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I will write Peace on your wings and you will fly around the world
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oneofchaos
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« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2009, 12:06:32 pm » |
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So far this has been testing quite wel..
// Lands 4 Polluted Delta 2 Underground Sea 2 Bayou 2 Tropical Island 2 Wooded Foothills 1 Bloodstained Mire
// Creatures 1 [ARB] Lord of Extinction 4 Street Wraith 4 [JGC] Hermit Druid 4 Narcomoeba 1 Sutured Ghoul 1 Darksteel Colossus
// Spells 1 Chain of Vapor 1 Demonic Tutor 1 Brainstorm 3 Careful Study 2 Repeal 4 Thoughtseize 1 Imperial Seal 1 Dragon Breath 1 Dread Return 1 Ancestral Recall 1 Ponder 1 Time Walk 1 Tinker 1 Vampiric Tutor 2 Cabal Therapy 1 Mox Pearl 1 Mox Ruby 1 Mox Sapphire 1 Mox Jet 1 Mox Emerald 1 Black Lotus 1 Mana Crypt 1 Sensei's Divining Top 2 Impulse
I did not like sleight of hand one bit. Not one bit. The fixing it offers is pretty horrible unless your trying to grow a dryad. We are not growing a dryad and I looked for an alternative draw engine. Street wraith allows the deck to play one less land, as well as making yourdeck tutors INSANE. I added mana crypt because it is simply just as good as an off color mox, and it can help power out druid + impulse, etc. Also it raises the artifact count enough that I am comfortable playing tinker. Top is decent as a one off with all the fetch effects the deck contains. The careful studies I dismissed as horrible, but gave them another look. They are quite decent at filtering through your deck even at the loss of a card. You really should be using your thoughtseizes and cabal therapies to hurt your opponent instead of discarding combo elements. Therefore, careful study functions well in the slot by drawing two, and pitching two bad cards. Also playing careful study over night's whisper leads to a lot less getting screwed by chalice at 2, as your often able to fight it.
I have looked into sideboard options, and I am not terribily comfortable with any I have found so far. I tried to delve away from a graveyard based strategy, however here is the problem. For game 2, you would need to sideboard out: 1 dread return 1 sutured ghoul 4 narcomoeba 1 dragon breath 4 hermit druid 1 lord of extinction
That alone is twelve cards. You would need an awesome transformational sideboard to make that switch work in your favor, because you would not have a sideboard for most matches. Other cards I have looked into are dark confidant/tarmogoyf, however you will not be able to get rid of the entire md combo and will be drawing awkward combo pieces during your game. Any ideas?
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Somebody tell Chapin how counterbalance works?
"Of all the major Vintage archetypes that exist and have existed for a significant period of time, Oath of Druids is basically the only won that has never won Vintage Championships and never will (the other being Dredge, which will never win either)." - Some guy who does not know vintage....
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Purple Hat
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« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2009, 03:05:27 pm » |
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couldn't you make a partial transformational board with like 4 goyfs and just board out like 2 druids and 2 something else leaving in the combo so if you see an opening you can go for it but you don't have to?
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"it's brainstorm...how can you not play brainstorm? You've cast that card right? and it resolved?" -Pat Chapin
Just moved - Looking for players/groups in North Jersey to sling some cardboard.
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Eastman
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« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2009, 03:08:18 pm » |
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One thing I tried for awhile, and it wasn't bad at all, is maindecking 3-4 goyfs instead of the Lord of Extinction. With any kind of other creature help (street wraith is perfect here), the goyfs can get you where you want to go. Then you have a backup plan, and the goyfs are main to help with a conversion.
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defamography
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« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2009, 06:28:53 pm » |
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I have a suggestion, and inevitably it will cost you more slots. But why don't you use 4x Dread Return, 1x Bladewing the Risen, 1x Bogarden Hellkite, 1x Bladewing's Thrall for the kill rather than the Sutured Ghoul/Lord of Extinction. Heres how it works: Sac Narco for Bladewing the Risen, Target Hellkite and return, Thrall will immediately follow suit allowing you repeat flashback on the Return to kill your opponent with 20 points of damage.
However I do have a side note, decks involving the graveyard such as dragon and your suggested deck, are extremely weakened by graveyard hate, (as i'm sure you know). Even though players use a core set of Yard killers (Leyline,Tormod's/Relic and Faerie Macabre) there is such a wide variety of hate your deck is still susceptible to in addition to the yard killers. Making this deck much easier to disrupt than others. Hate cards such as Chain of Vapor are currently maindecked. I'm curious do you have a plan for those other than Thoughtseize/Duress?
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oneofchaos
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« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2009, 09:46:38 pm » |
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One thing I tried for awhile, and it wasn't bad at all, is maindecking 3-4 goyfs instead of the Lord of Extinction. With any kind of other creature help (street wraith is perfect here), the goyfs can get you where you want to go. Then you have a backup plan, and the goyfs are main to help with a conversion.
Street wraith is more than excellent in this deck. It's like the first legit use I found for him. I wanted to post this earlier, but I had lost the internet so I will post it anyway: Mana: 21 3 Polluted Delta 2 Underground Sea 2 Bayou 2 Tropical Island 2 Wooded Foothills 1 Bloodstained Mire 1 Island 1 Swamp 1 Mox Pearl 1 Mox Ruby 1 Mox Sapphire 1 Mox Jet 1 Mox Emerald 1 Black Lotus 1 Mana Crypt (better than off color mox!) Combo: 12 1 [ARB] Lord of Extinction 4 [JGC] Hermit Druid 4 Narcomoeba 1 Sutured Ghoul 1 Dragon Breath 1 Dread Return Backup: 2 1 Darksteel Colossus 1 Tinker BROKEN: 8 1 Demonic Tutor 1 Brainstorm 1 Imperial Seal 1 Ancestral Recall 1 Ponder 1 Time Walk 1 Vampiric Tutor 1 Mystical Tutor Draw/Fixing: 10 3 Careful Study 1 Sensei's Divining Top 2 Impulse 4 Street Wraith Protection: 7 1 Chain of Vapor 1 Repeal 3 Thoughtseize 2 Cabal Therapy Tinker is obviously stronger with the more artifacts you run. Therefore playing a singleton top allows you to not worry about seeing other tops. Also it can fix hands with a missing color by finding other fetches. It is also the only artifact you can sneak into play with a chalice at 0 out. Mana crypt can power out top+activation, hermit druid + time walk, impulse into druid, etc. It’s really that good. The deck is not about card advantage in any way. Trying to string together a good draw engine is pointless, as you want the game over ASAP. You want to dig for combo elements rather than draw. The careful studies are a single shot bazaar activation that doesn’t cost you a land drop. It is also a nice way to get rid of DSC to make sure you aren’t decked. Street wraith- The problem with street wraith is he has been crammed into decks by the logic that they could become 56 card decks. That is not the reason we use him above. He not only makes your topdeck tutors incredibly awesome, but he provides a way to win without lord of extinction if it crypted away or something. Removing 4 hermit druid, 4 narcomoeba, and 4 street wraith for sutured ghoul makes him a 20/24, enough to make inkwells, DSC, titan, and welders run in fear. Street wraith is also very nice with top in that he can grab the top card of deck without letting your opponent know what it is of course. Finally, I lied to you before. You are now playing a 56 card deck. You increase your chance of getting a druid earlier just by playing a smaller deck size. One of the strengths of running Careful study is you often will run into an opponent running a chalice at two out. By having most of your draw cost 1, you force your opponent into cutting off your draw or your combo, but not both. I love 2 impulse as they can randomly blast through pockets of the deck and get you what you need at instant speed. I like mystical tutor for the simple reason it grabs you anything you need aside hermit druid. You want a duress effect? You want to grab tinker and try to resolve it? Want to go for a recall? Want a bounce spell? My first attempt at a legit sideboard: Sideboard: SB: 1 Thoughtseize SB: 4 Pithing Needle SB: 4 Tarmogoyf SB: 2 Duress SB: 2 Slaughter Pact SB: 2 Darkblast Tarmogoyfs are for the ability to just aggro in the win. Duress effects are for combo. Pithing needle is for whatever might destroy your manabase or whatever else you might want to stop. Darkblast can kill welders, or troublesome creatures. You can usually even get 2/2’s with it. Slaughter pact is just another out to magus of the moon type things.
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Somebody tell Chapin how counterbalance works?
"Of all the major Vintage archetypes that exist and have existed for a significant period of time, Oath of Druids is basically the only won that has never won Vintage Championships and never will (the other being Dredge, which will never win either)." - Some guy who does not know vintage....
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SiegeX
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Posts: 209
I'm attacking the darkness!
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« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2009, 12:08:47 am » |
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Since you guys are playing with Sutured Ghoul, I thought I should note that he can actually exile himself while in the GY. Whether or not you can use that to an advantage, I don't know; but now you have another potential angle to attack.
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oneofchaos
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« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2009, 12:10:33 am » |
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Since you guys are playing with Sutured Ghoul, I thought I should note that he can actually exile himself while in the GY. Whether or not you can use that to an advantage, I don't know; but now you have another potential angle to attack.
Wait don't go and start using new lingo on me now! Strategic Planning was recently suggested, and I'll try it out. Seems strictly better than careful study in a way.
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Somebody tell Chapin how counterbalance works?
"Of all the major Vintage archetypes that exist and have existed for a significant period of time, Oath of Druids is basically the only won that has never won Vintage Championships and never will (the other being Dredge, which will never win either)." - Some guy who does not know vintage....
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LordHomerCat
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« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2009, 12:44:41 am » |
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I would recommend reading your main card, and then not playing basic lands in the deck if you don't want to just lose constantly to them.
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Team Meandeck Team Serious LordHomerCat is just mean, and isnt really justifying his statements very well, is he?
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M.Solymossy
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Posts: 1982
Sphinx of The Steel Wind
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« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2009, 01:06:49 am » |
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This is the pile I've been testing
// Lands 4 Polluted Delta 1 Wooded Foothills 1 Bloodstained Mire 2 Tropical Island 2 Bayou 3 Underground Sea 1 Pendelhaven
// Creatures 3 Narcomoeba 4 Hermit Druid 1 Sutured Ghoul 1 Lord of Extinction 1 Darksteel Colossus
// Spells 3 Careful Study 4 Force of Will 3 Cabal Therapy 1 Repeal 1 Lotus Petal 2 Thoughtseize 1 Time Walk 1 Vampiric Tutor 1 Dread Return 1 Dragon Breath 4 Strategic Planning 1 Ancestral Recall 1 Brainstorm 1 Ponder 1 Black Lotus 1 Tinker 1 Demonic Tutor 3 Null Rod 1 Mana Crypt 1 Mox Sapphire 1 Mox Jet 1 Mox Emerald 1 Mox Ruby
// Sideboard SB: 3 Duress SB: 4 Tarmogoyf SB: 2 Reverent Silence SB: 2 Seal of Primordium SB: 2 Oxidize SB: 2 Pithing Needle
Null Rod has been AMAZING. So has Strategic Planning. I play 3 Underground Seas strictly because I own 3 black bordered ones.
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~Team Meandeck~
Vintage will continue to be awful until Time Vault is banned from existance.
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oneofchaos
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« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2009, 01:11:04 am » |
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I would recommend reading your main card, and then not playing basic lands in the deck if you don't want to just lose constantly to them.
Those got accidentally added in. I was tired and was playing around with the manabase and decided basics would be fun. Oops. Edit: The good news is that strip is now just another waste =D
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« Last Edit: June 23, 2009, 01:13:36 am by oneofchaos »
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Somebody tell Chapin how counterbalance works?
"Of all the major Vintage archetypes that exist and have existed for a significant period of time, Oath of Druids is basically the only won that has never won Vintage Championships and never will (the other being Dredge, which will never win either)." - Some guy who does not know vintage....
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Andreas
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« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2009, 05:50:44 am » |
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I have two questions regarding Soly's List: 1) Why is Strategic Planning better than Impulse? 2) Is Careful Study really better than Sleight of Hand? Both give you direct access to the better of the two cards on top of your library. Careful Study has an advantage if both cards are really good, but otherwise it just costs you a card. I am aware that this is probably not the deck for long, drawn out attrition wars, but nevertheless if card-disadvantage can be avoided why not? I really like the inclusion of Null Rod in this deck. 
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oneofchaos
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« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2009, 11:19:50 am » |
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I am personally starting to like strat plan over impulse. I still like careful study over sleight of hand. As I said earlier, all discard elements should be targeting your opponent, and you have no other way of discarding combo elements without an outlet. Null Rod is pretty much the nuts because it turns off time vault, mana, and non black grave hate. I'm currently working on a hybrid between my and soly's lists.
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Somebody tell Chapin how counterbalance works?
"Of all the major Vintage archetypes that exist and have existed for a significant period of time, Oath of Druids is basically the only won that has never won Vintage Championships and never will (the other being Dredge, which will never win either)." - Some guy who does not know vintage....
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M.Solymossy
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Sphinx of The Steel Wind
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« Reply #26 on: June 23, 2009, 12:10:36 pm » |
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Yeah, Dave and I have been working on various lists. Some which were mostly black playing Unmask, some playing Force of Will. The build I came up with, I posted. To answer questions: 1) Why is Strategic Planning better than Impulse?Strategic planning is better than impulse because it puts cards in the graveyard. It allows you to rifle through the deck and find your permission/Hermit Druid. It also triggers Narcomoeba 2) Is Careful Study really better than Sleight of Hand? Both give you direct access to the better of the two cards on top of your library. Careful Study has an advantage if both cards are really good, but otherwise it just costs you a card. I am aware that this is probably not the deck for long, drawn out attrition wars, but nevertheless if card-disadvantage can be avoided why not?Again, Careful study puts cards in the graveyard. If you draw multiple combo pieces (which does happen), you want ways to put them into the graveyard. I really hate targetting myself with my Thoughtseizes/Cabal Therapies, unless I have to.
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~Team Meandeck~
Vintage will continue to be awful until Time Vault is banned from existance.
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Eastman
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« Reply #27 on: June 23, 2009, 01:20:54 pm » |
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I really like the lists that have been posted here. Mike, I like Null Rod as an MD option because it gives you a legit fish convert. I ran the list with Null Rod for a long time (as a three of) and found it to be excellent against heavy disruption. People packing t. crypts and relics are so disappointed by how effective null rod is.
I'm skeptical of the 3-narco plan. I just found this to be altogether risky because it really cuts down on your ability to therapy etc., especially should you draw one, and if you draw two that's a nightmare. Now given that you are running careful study and have less need to therapy yourself, I could see it being less of a problem, but it's overall something I'd be watchful of and curious to hear if you run into trouble with it.
Am i right in thinking that the main question right now is: Street Wraith, Planning, or Sleight? If so I'll throw out my arguments for Sleight, which I thought was excellent when I used it. As opposed to Street Wraith, it digs one deeper, giving you a better likelihood of finding the guy off it, though it does cost one more. Plus, street wraith can just draw into combo pieces. I thought the best thing about sleight, and also probably planning, is that it keeps you from having to draw through combo pieces. Now as opposed to planning, I'd note that Sleight costs one less, and although it digs one shorter, the ability to cast a dude off sleight, play it first turn, or chain sleights seems really good. Plus, if the top two cards are gas+narco, sleight lets you keep the narco in the deck where he can be used for a therapy later, whereas planning forces you to dump a narco.... WAIT, just read Soly's post, strategic planning doesn't dump narcos, the narco triggers off planning and goes to the yard right? So good! [Planning ---> hermit to hand, narco to play, therapy to grave ] sounds like the best play ever. And both planning and sleight are pretty impossible to find black bordered, so there's equivalency there (since I'm arguing with a guy who admits to running 3 seas only because he doesn't want to play white borders). I'll definitely test planning.
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oneofchaos
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« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2009, 01:46:04 pm » |
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I really like the lists that have been posted here. Mike, I like Null Rod as an MD option because it gives you a legit fish convert. I ran the list with Null Rod for a long time (as a three of) and found it to be excellent against heavy disruption. People packing t. crypts and relics are so disappointed by how effective null rod is.
I'm skeptical of the 3-narco plan. I just found this to be altogether risky because it really cuts down on your ability to therapy etc., especially should you draw one, and if you draw two that's a nightmare. Now given that you are running careful study and have less need to therapy yourself, I could see it being less of a problem, but it's overall something I'd be watchful of and curious to hear if you run into trouble with it.
Am i right in thinking that the main question right now is: Street Wraith, Planning, or Sleight? If so I'll throw out my arguments for Sleight, which I thought was excellent when I used it. As opposed to Street Wraith, it digs one deeper, giving you a better likelihood of finding the guy off it, though it does cost one more. Plus, street wraith can just draw into combo pieces. I thought the best thing about sleight, and also probably planning, is that it keeps you from having to draw through combo pieces. Now as opposed to planning, I'd note that Sleight costs one less, and although it digs one shorter, the ability to cast a dude off sleight, play it first turn, or chain sleights seems really good. Plus, if the top two cards are gas+narco, sleight lets you keep the narco in the deck where he can be used for a therapy later, whereas planning forces you to dump a narco.... WAIT, just read Soly's post, strategic planning doesn't dump narcos, the narco triggers off planning and goes to the yard right? So good! [Planning ---> hermit to hand, narco to play, therapy to grave ] sounds like the best play ever. And both planning and sleight are pretty impossible to find black bordered, so there's equivalency there (since I'm arguing with a guy who admits to running 3 seas only because he doesn't want to play white borders). I'll definitely test planning.
I really am also skeptical of dropping below 3 narcos. I don't mind drawing one as I can always hardcast it, but it gets worrissome when you hit 2+. I LOVE strategic planning, and am so excited Mike turned me on to the idea of using them. Currently here is my list followed by explanations: // Lands 4 Polluted Delta 3 Underground Sea 2 Bayou 2 Tropical Island 2 Wooded Foothills 1 Bloodstained Mire // Creatures 1 [ARB] Lord of Extinction 4 Street Wraith 4 [JGC] Hermit Druid 4 Narcomoeba 1 Sutured Ghoul 1 Darksteel Colossus // Spells 1 Chain of Vapor 1 Demonic Tutor 1 Brainstorm 3 Careful Study 3 Thoughtseize 1 Imperial Seal 1 Dragon Breath 1 Dread Return 1 Ancestral Recall 1 Ponder 1 Time Walk 1 Tinker 1 Vampiric Tutor 2 Cabal Therapy 1 Mox Pearl 1 Mox Ruby 1 Mox Sapphire 1 Mox Jet 1 Mox Emerald 1 Black Lotus 1 Mana Crypt 1 Sensei's Divining Top 1 Mystical Tutor 3 Strategic Planning // Sideboard SB: 1 Thoughtseize SB: 1 Slaughter Pact SB: 2 Darkblast SB: 2 Pithing Needle SB: 4 Tarmogoyf SB: 1 Reverent Silence SB: 1 Echoing Truth SB: 2 Seal of Primordium SB: 1 Inkwell Leviathan Street wraith is uncounterable draw. I play mystical tutor unlike Mike, because I can grab recall, tinker, thoughtseize, chain of vapor, etc. I think people frequently misuse street wraith, and should try testing it with street wraith. With playing three topdeck tutors street wraith make them awesome. I hated mytical early on, but it essentially reads: "place target non mana, non hermit druid card on top of your deck". There is no other creature you want to find and I increased the mana to 21 even with street wraith. I think it needs 22 sources, but with the street wraiths I was able to drop one. Also mana crypt is something you should try out Eastman. I just couldn't deal with having null rod main because it was not a combo element or protection. I agree it's good, but I just didn't see a legit md use for it. Maybe I can work it into the sideboard? Sideboard questionables- (the maindeck mystical makes it easier to pack sb answers to hate) 1 reverent silence - leyline. 1 echoing truth - another bounce spell, w/e you might need it for 1 inkwell leviathon - I board it in vs stax/fish. They both have removal for dsc and fish will most likely board into swords or something instead of hurkyls, making it stronger vs fish g2/g3. It can also of course pitch to sutured ghoul. 2 seal - stax, hate removal, etc. 1 thoughtseize - combo, i wanted a sixth discard effect 4 tarmogoyf - you go nuts with these boys with the way the deck is built (street wraith is soooo good) 1 slaughter pact - magus, problematic creatures 2 pith - time vault, bazaar, wastelands, etc 2 darkblast - welders/fishies, and with all the planning effects etc, you can nicely dredge parts of your deck apart Edit: some things that I tried but failed. 1 pendlehaven - sorry Eastman, an unfetchable nonbasic with a very narrow use just didn't cut it for me 1 dryad arbor - cute, it's a creature, it makes a green mana, but the deck is too fast to draw a land with summoning sickness 4 sleight of hand - hated them. I tested them enough to make sure the hate was warranted. It was. 2 impulse - strategic planning is better. the deck doesn't need instant speed dig effects at all. the one extra card it digs isn't better than putting 2/3 of the cards you see in your grave. transformational sb - somebody come up with something i am clearly stumped. I did try to work in the goyfs so I can remove a couple hermit druids and tutor for the combo if an opening happens, but it is usually just easiest to answer hate. I know somebody is going to call me out on playing street wraith as too much damage. It isn't trust me. 4 street wraith + 7 fetch + imperial seal + 3thoughtseize + vamp is only 25 damage. Your not going to see them all, I usually go down to 14-16.
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« Last Edit: June 23, 2009, 01:55:16 pm by oneofchaos »
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Somebody tell Chapin how counterbalance works?
"Of all the major Vintage archetypes that exist and have existed for a significant period of time, Oath of Druids is basically the only won that has never won Vintage Championships and never will (the other being Dredge, which will never win either)." - Some guy who does not know vintage....
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Purple Hat
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Posts: 1100
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« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2009, 02:23:57 pm » |
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against hate that isn't leyline of the void, you could put 4 goyf, 4 tombstalker in your board. strat planning, careful study, wraiths and all the fetchlands should make casting the stalkers early for relatively cheap pretty doable.
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"it's brainstorm...how can you not play brainstorm? You've cast that card right? and it resolved?" -Pat Chapin
Just moved - Looking for players/groups in North Jersey to sling some cardboard.
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