[Deck] Hermit Blaster!!!

[2nd_lawl]

there seems to be a a major miscommunication here:

The wheel+ druid setup DOES NOT REQUIRE YOUR OPPONENT TO HAVE LEYLINE OF THE VOID IN PLAY. If he does have leyline of the void, all it does it make your stack simpler.

The advantage of it is that it is immune to every GY hate card that is commonly seen. The MD kill is cold to: relic of progenitus, leyline, tormods crypt  yixlid jailer and extripate. These are the 5 most commonly seen GY hate cards(i don't think anyone will dispute this).  The wheel kill ignores all of them.

I don't think its necessary to side out Tinker+ DSC( as having thinker as an option in SB games is nice) But that still means that  you can take out 4 narcomoeba, dread return, lord of extinction, sutured goul, and Dragons breath(+ some number of street wraiths if you want). Which is more than enough room for 4 Wheel + Demonic Consultation and Tendrils (which are the only SB cards you need) This gives you at least 2 slots + however many streeet wraits you want for cards that can kill pithing needle or can simply hose whatever your opponent is playing (your own leylines, crypts, relics or jailers against dredge, or whatever else you want)

This deck is not running a huge amount of disruption (3 thoughtsieze + 2 cabal therapy) and its going to have a tough time protecting tarmogoyf for the 5 turns required to kill them.  Drastically slowing down the game is a fine strategy if you are set up to disrupt the opponent and protect your threat. This deck is not.

[Marske]

You seem to like to play Doomsday style decks.  Perhaps you should play the deck called "Doomsday".  The problem with wheel you don't quite seem to understand, is it ONLY works in a very narrow situation.  That is like saying ancestral recall can make your opponent lose the game by decking him.  Yes, it is possible but it does not happen for the most part in competitive vintage.  Be realistic when you sideboard, your playing a graveyard based deck.  The best strategies you can possibly employ are good swift answers to any hate brought in against you OR a transformational sb.  Wheel is neither.

I'm sorry to say this but I've been testing wheel and it's not narrow by a long shot. You get to just IGNORE a large piece of cards the opponent WILL be siding in against you. One of the most common mistakes people will fall into is "I'll just bounce whatever hate they bring" and then get raced by bounce on your dude or Extirpate on your combo. Wheel prevents it all, you event get to ignore Extirpate. If you're opponent doesn't bring in anything you can still just win like you normally would or you can win using the interaction between Druid and Wheel. It really doesn't matter what you're opponent does at this point it's just like game 1, you only need 1 druid activation to win.

Pact of negation kind of hit me as an awesome idea for backup for the combo turn.  Sometimes your opponent can get around thoughtseize + cabal therapy and still have an answer to your sutured ghoul.  Not anymore.  I only play one because I can usually tutor it up the turn of me going off, as that is really the only time I want it. 

I don't believe you with this statement, sure an opponent could have multiple pieces of hate but with Seize, Therapy (which you should be able to use again) and FoW you should be well equipped to handle it.

I had cut Lord of extinction but then the problem became clear we only have twenty power worth of damage swinging in towards an opponent.  Now if you cannot kill an opponent that turn, you get another.  If your opponent has a DSC, they will take 9 dmg, then 9 dmg.  They will be alive at 2 life, and you will be decked.  Sad times.  I think it is safe to say lord is warranted, especially when you randomly hardcast him and win. 

only 20 points of damage with the lord ?! You should be milling your entire deck and "exiling" LoE to Ghoul having a graveyard packed with stuff you easily swing for 40+ damage.

This deck is not running a huge amount of disruption (3 thoughtsieze + 2 cabal therapy) and its going to have a tough time protecting tarmogoyf for the 5 turns required to kill them.  Drastically slowing down the game is a fine strategy if you are set up to disrupt the opponent and protect your threat. This deck is not.

You're forgetting 4x FoW.... also I don't think Demonic Consultation + Tendrils is needed and Tarmogoyf is WAY to graveyard dependent to warrant inclusion. I'll post my own list which imo doesn't have these defects ASAP after I finally got a real life testing session with it.

[2nd_lawl]

This deck is not running a huge amount of disruption (3 thoughtsieze + 2 cabal therapy) and its going to have a tough time protecting tarmogoyf for the 5 turns required to kill them.  Drastically slowing down the game is a fine strategy if you are set up to disrupt the opponent and protect your threat. This deck is not.

You're forgetting 4x FoW.... also I don't think Demonic Consultation + Tendrils is needed and Tarmogoyf is WAY to graveyard dependent to warrant inclusion. I'll post my own list which imo doesn't have these defects ASAP after I finally got a real life testing session with it.

I was basing my commont off oneofchaos's list which has no FOW.  But yea i also agree that tarmogoyf is not really going to be optimal against an opponent who is likley siding in crypts, relics, or leylines.

[Marske]

@2nd_Lawl,
I didn't even notice that... If you're not playing FoW you might as well just pick up Ichorid. One of the strength's I found with this deck is the ability to run FoW and have about the same inevitability as ichorid has.

[2nd_lawl]

@2nd_Lawl,
I didn't even notice that... If you're not playing FoW you might as well just pick up Ichorid. One of the strength's I found with this deck is the ability to run FoW and have about the same inevitability as ichorid has.

Thats a fair point, I haven't really tested this deck alot, im just working off the lists posted here.

The main thrust in my opinion is simple: This deck is a very fast "1 card combo" deck that is very very vulnerable to GY hate.  Any decent opponent is going to be packing significant GY hate, and likely they will have multiple kinds.  You can try and side in answers to that hate, but extirpate is difficult to answer and krosan grip doesn't kill yixlid jailer. Instead I think the better approach is to turn into a 2 card combo deck that is simply immune to all the Gy hate, this leaves your opponent with a huge amount of dead cards, and while it does slow down the combo slightly, the deck packs enough tutoring and card drawing that the 2 card combo is still faster then attacking with a 4/5 tarmogoyf.

[oneofchaos]

Marske-
I don't believe you with this statement, sure an opponent could have multiple pieces of hate but with Seize, Therapy (which you should be able to use again) and FoW you should be well equipped to handle it.

I did not say I played FOW ever.  The earliest list contained it, I have been moving away from it.  I have been happy to have not been playing it more than to be playing it.

Edit:  When I mentioned attacking for 20, that was after I removed the Lord of extinction from the deck.  That's because you remove all the other creatures in your deck (4 narco/4 hermit/4 street) and you have a hasted 20/24 sutured ghoul.

[Harlequin]

having a 20/24 seems really risky.  If they go turn 1 welder? Or if you have any of the 1/1's in your hand?  Is banking on exactly 20 power worth of guys worth it?  Also how often do find the need for the 4th nacro.  Even if you drew 2 of the 3 nacros, its not like they are ~that~ difficult to cast.  Why not run 3 nacros and 1 something, like goyf or LOEx.

[SiegeX]

What oneofchaos was trying to say was that he contemplated removing the LoE but decided against it because swinging for exactly 20 was to risky. If you look at his list you'll see he has LoE in there. Now if you insist on keeping a backup kill why not use inkwell instead of DSC?  He makes your Sutured Ghoul big enough to comfortably remove LoE for something else. 

[LordHomerCat]

DSC Shuffles back in which gives you an extra turn to live.  Inkwell puts you all in on the spot.

[oneofchaos]

DSC Shuffles back in which gives you an extra turn to live.  Inkwell puts you all in on the spot.

Bingo.

I did try removing the LOE, but often you just want to swing for 30+ points.  He does that nicely.  Narcomoeba I believe you should play 4, as they are synergistic with strategic planning and having to hardcast them is usually a game over.  Your wasting your time casting the creatures you were supposed to get for free!

[evouga]

I've playtested a similar deck, and found it surprisingly strong. Here are my suggestions:

1. I'm not sure about Wheel as a viable sideboard plan. It's an awkward card to play, demands a lot about the shape of your deck and sideboard, and is useless in defending the deck's other (and almost as severe) weakness: the fragility of the Druid. I'll have to test it more but I'd be very surprised if I'm not happier sideing in more black disruption instead.

2. I'm very skeptical about the removal of FoW, for the same reason.

3. Are you sure about this mana base? I would at a minimum consider replacing Underground Seas and Bayous with Cities of Brass. I'd probably use Gemstone Mines as well.

4. I wouldn't bother with Tinker+Colossus, and instead spend those slots on support for the combo. Doing so lets you replace off-color artifact mana with ESGs, which are very good here and also let you build critical Ghoul mass without LoE. For example

-1 Tinker
-1 Darksteel Colossus
-1 Mana Crypt
-1 Mox Ruby
-1 Mox Pearl
-1 Lord of Extinction

+4 Elvish Spirit Guide
+2 Worldly Tutor.

[Eastman]

I've playtested a similar deck, and found it surprisingly strong. Here are my suggestions:

1. I'm not sure about Wheel as a viable sideboard plan. It's an awkward card to play, demands a lot about the shape of your deck and sideboard, and is useless in defending the deck's other (and almost as severe) weakness: the fragility of the Druid. I'll have to test it more but I'd be very surprised if I'm not happier sideing in more black disruption instead.

Agreed. The wheel does nothing about darkblast or pithing needle, which are your biggest fears post board I think. The biggest difficulty with the deck overall is really it's vulnerability to two kinds of hate, creature AND gy. 

[nineisnoone]

I could see this deck running Chalice of the Void.  Especially, if you run Null Rod along with that.  The deck has low mana requirements, disrupting their mana base forces opposing decks into a defensive stance rather than an offensive one.  On top of going against the most common anti-GY card in Crypt.  Plus, it works well if you try to run an aggro-plan B.

You can also Chalice @ 1, which while hitting some of your own cards, gets things like Darkblast, Needle, Relic, etc.  A token Ancient Grudge would also allow you to play Chalice @ 1 and still Cabal Therapy (Grudge your own Chalice).

I must say I do love this deck.  Big props.

[zabuza]

What about playing natural order--> progenitus in the sideboard??? Or oath of druids -->progenitus??
Is a non graveyard dependant win con.
thoughts?

[oneofchaos]

What about playing natural order--> progenitus in the sideboard??? Or oath of druids -->progenitus??
Is a non graveyard dependant win con.
thoughts?

What why?

You need a green creature to sacrifice, you need to play out a hermit druid anyways to even cast it.  Not to mention your losing if it is countered.  Not to mention why play natural order when you can just deal with whatever grave hate is played against you.  Oath is a better possibility.  You would need to probably include the orchards main as you would not want them clogging up your sb.

Edit:  Now that I realize Natural Order is four freakin mana, and most answers to hate are between 0-2 mana, Why would you even go that route?

[nineisnoone]

I've been messing around with it a bit, but haven't gotten anything I really like so far with it... but I think Phyrexian Dreadnaught would be the best alt. win condition.

1) It uses Stifle, hence it is good against the new unrestricted Crop Rotation (which I think most people overstate its impact) and all the other bonuses along with running Stifle, anti-storm, buying turns against Vault/Bazaar, etc.
2) Dreadnaught is huge and replace LoE or whatever to buff your Ghoul for you win condition.
3) Stifle is blue helping you keep up your FoW count, which I think is very important since you'll need to pass the turn for Hermit.

[oneofchaos]

I've been messing around with it a bit, but haven't gotten anything I really like so far with it... but I think Phyrexian Dreadnaught would be the best alt. win condition.

1) It uses Stifle, hence it is good against the new unrestricted Crop Rotation (which I think most people overstate its impact) and all the other bonuses along with running Stifle, anti-storm, buying turns against Vault/Bazaar, etc.
2) Dreadnaught is huge and replace LoE or whatever to buff your Ghoul for you win condition.
3) Stifle is blue helping you keep up your FoW count, which I think is very important since you'll need to pass the turn for Hermit.

I think that it could certainly work.  It pushes a fish style deck.  We should work on a list.

[nineisnoone]

Just throwing something together....

Hermit Combo (11)
4 Hermit Druid
4 Narcomoeba
1 Dread Return
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Dragon Breath

Dreadnaught Combo (8)
4 Phyrexian Dreadnaught
4 Stifle

8 Protection/Disruption
4 Force of Will
4 Cabal Therapy

Draw
4 Dark Confidant

9 Broken
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Tinker
1 Inkwell Leviathan

20 Mana
7 Fetches
2 Bayou
2 Trop
2 U. Sea
5 Moxen
1 Lotus
1 Pendelhaven

Very much in the fish direction.  You still have the "opps, I win" power off Hermit Druid, but you also have the graveyard independent win off Dreadnaught.  I just decided to complete the Cabal Therapy Package.  Stifle gives you an out against Crypt/Relic anyways, so you just want to clear out the counters, so hardcasting is fine.

Not sure if Dark Confidant is really the best choice, but it seemed like it fit somewhat.  Could probably be a lot of things though.

[oneofchaos]

Just throwing something together....

Hermit Combo (11)
4 Hermit Druid
4 Narcomoeba
1 Dread Return
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Dragon Breath

Dreadnaught Combo (8)
4 Phyrexian Dreadnaught
4 Stifle

8 Protection/Disruption
4 Force of Will
4 Cabal Therapy

Draw
4 Dark Confidant

9 Broken
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Tinker
1 Inkwell Leviathan

20 Mana
7 Fetches
2 Bayou
2 Trop
2 U. Sea
5 Moxen
1 Lotus
1 Pendelhaven

Very much in the fish direction.  You still have the "opps, I win" power off Hermit Druid, but you also have the graveyard independent win off Dreadnaught.  I just decided to complete the Cabal Therapy Package.  Stifle gives you an out against Crypt/Relic anyways, so you just want to clear out the counters, so hardcasting is fine.

Not sure if Dark Confidant is really the best choice, but it seemed like it fit somewhat.  Could probably be a lot of things though.

Why cut mana crypt?  I like it more than off color moxen.

Bob is going to hit you for 1.5 dmg each turn, so that seems acceptable.  I just worry that if you try to go for a hermit druid win, your hand is going to clog up with dreadnoughts and stifles.

[Eastman]

No need for tinker and inkwell if you're trying dreadnaught.  I'd pull those for two trickbinds probably.  Stifle and trickbind can beat pithing needle too which is very nice.  Let us know how this works out I'm very curious.  Or better yet, run 2-3 dreadnaught, 4 stifle, and 3-4 strategic planning.  As is I agree with oneofchaos that you might find yourself with really cluttered hands. 

Confidant is all kinds of slow, I tend to doubt that you'll like it in the long term.  I also think 4 therapies is way too many.  Unless you are flashing them back duress/tseize are just better. 

[oneofchaos]

No need for tinker and inkwell if you're trying dreadnaught.  I'd pull those for two trickbinds probably.  Stifle and trickbind can beat pithing needle too which is very nice.  Let us know how this works out I'm very curious.  Or better yet, run 2-3 dreadnaught, 4 stifle, and 3-4 strategic planning.  As is I agree with oneofchaos that you might find yourself with really cluttered hands. 

Confidant is all kinds of slow, I tend to doubt that you'll like it in the long term.  I also think 4 therapies is way too many.  Unless you are flashing them back duress/tseize are just better. 

How does stifle/trickbind beat pithing needle?  I thought it was like meddling mage where you cant' stifle the ability? 

[SiegeX]

Stifle and trickbind can beat pithing needle too which is very nice

Unfortunately, Pithing needle isn't triggered, it's naming a card effect is a Comes into Play replacement effect and its ability is a static ability.  Likewise for Meddling Mage.

[nineisnoone]

Why cut mana crypt?  I like it more than off color moxen.

Bob is going to hit you for 1.5 dmg each turn, so that seems acceptable.  I just worry that if you try to go for a hermit druid win, your hand is going to clog up with dreadnoughts and stifles.

Why would you need Mana Crypt?  The list I posted is 90% Eastman's original post.  Personally, I don't see the need for that much colorless.

Stifle is fine in hand, as it can counter a Crypt/Relic activation.  Plus it a blue for FOW.

Dreadnaught is useless in hand, sure.  You could probably cut one.  

No need for tinker and inkwell if you're trying dreadnaught.  I'd pull those for two trickbinds probably.  Stifle and trickbind can beat pithing needle too which is very nice.  Let us know how this works out I'm very curious.  Or better yet, run 2-3 dreadnaught, 4 stifle, and 3-4 strategic planning.  As is I agree with oneofchaos that you might find yourself with really cluttered hands. 

Confidant is all kinds of slow, I tend to doubt that you'll like it in the long term.  I also think 4 therapies is way too many.  Unless you are flashing them back duress/tseize are just better.

Do you really feel that Tinker is unnecessary?  I ran it, not to pump Ghoul, but to be able to answer targetted removal.  I would rather cut a 2nd Dreadnaught (going down to 2), then cut Tinker.  It also ups the blue count.

I was actually leaning more towards Lim-Dul's Vault over Dark Confidant.  It's a 1 card combo, so you really don't need to be worrying too much about the card disadvantage. 

The Cabal Therapy package is mostly there because I am still unsure of how creature-oriented I should make the deck.  Realistically, your right unless the deck goes in a significantly more fish-y direction.  Just for the combo, you only need two.

Must do some more testing.

[oneofchaos]

Why not play mana crypt?  Name one thing that mana crypt does worse than ruby or pearl?  It can accelerate hermit druid + strategic plannings in the same turn.  Hermit druid + time walk, etc.  

If you don't need that much colorless I expect ruby and pearl to be cut in your next list.

[nineisnoone]

it hits you for damage?  and yeah, i've actually considered pulling the off-color moxen.  but i guess you could play crypt over pearl/ruby.  i'm just using a mana base i saw posted.  but your argument does make sense.

[oneofchaos]

it hits you for damage?  and yeah, i've actually considered pulling the off-color moxen.  but i guess you could play crypt over pearl/ruby.  i'm just using a mana base i saw posted.  but your argument does make sense.

If you plan on winning in the first three turns of the game (which I hope you do, as the deck is capable of), mana crypt can deal no more than 9 damage to you.  Without mana burn it seems strictly superior to off color moxen in a combo deck.

Make the 9 damage six, since you won't take any damage the turn you play it. 

[policehq]

I'm sorry if this is too far off topic, but I believe there is some synergy between combining Cephalid Illusionist, Shuko, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Stifle, and Trinket Mage. You could cut green altogether, not worry about passing the turn with a Druid in play, and pack disruption with an alternate kill, at the expense of occasionally being slower.

[oneofchaos]

I'm sorry if this is too far off topic, but I believe there is some synergy between combining Cephalid Illusionist, Shuko, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Stifle, and Trinket Mage. You could cut green altogether, not worry about passing the turn with a Druid in play, and pack disruption with an alternate kill, at the expense of occasionally being slower.

Not only would it seem slower, but you need shuko + illusionist in play.  In the rest of our builds you need to get a single green creature in play, and come up with a green mana the following turn to win.  What confuses me is that you want to cut green at the expense of making the combo win that turn.  I usually do not lose if I set up and protect a hermit druid.  Winning a turn later is usually not to much of wait at all in the deck.  All the disruption you pack should be aimed at protecting your combo and disrupting your opponent, you should not need to run out a druid and hope for a win.  I think a build could prove interesting if you post a list, but overall as of now, I think it is a step in the wrong direction for the deck. 

[nataz]

wait. if you want an alt. kill why not go for the oath kill like WGDX used too. remove the 10 or so creatures, add in 4 orchard (if you need them) 4 oath, a couple of oath creatures, etc., and maybe some bounce (etruth, hurk, rebuild, whatever).

Presto, you beat grave hate, pithing needle, and darkblast. You stay in color, keep a few "oh shit" cards in the way of bounce, and you get to laugh at your opp's dead cards.

Extra lands and bounce seems like a decent plan B against stax, and there is still SB room left over for 4x leyline against ichorid or something dedicated to fight tez. Seems way less janky then sun and moon.

[Purple Hat]

wait. if you want an alt. kill why not go for the oath kill like WGDX used too. remove the 10 or so creatures, add in 4 orchard (if you need them) 4 oath, a couple of oath creatures, etc., and maybe some bounce (etruth, hurk, rebuild, whatever).

Presto, you beat grave hate, pithing needle, and darkblast. You stay in color, keep a few "oh shit" cards in the way of bounce, and you get to laugh at your opp's dead cards.

Extra lands and bounce seems like a decent plan B against stax, and there is still SB room left over for 4x leyline against ichorid or something dedicated to fight tez. Seems way less janky then sun and moon.

Just play a 5 color manabase with 4 city, 4 gemstone, 4 orchard.  orchard is a legit 5c land as long as you're playing the others.  Then 4 oath 2 creatures in the board, and you've got 9 extra slots