Gush in Tezz?

[coolapc]

So I have been trying to figure out how to replace my 3 unplayable thirsts in my Tezz deck... I don't want to take up 6 slots with the accumulated knowledge/intuition engine... and I don't want to play remora either.  I like night's whisper... what about gush?  Is it worth playing one gush?  I am scared of running too many night's whispers and not having cards to pitch to Force since I already run 5 duress effects... I figure the one gush could be helpful to cast off drain mana or to save a land from strip/wasteland.  What does everyone think?

[Caron]

..in my experience gush was great in 4 copies as complete drawing engine (+fastbond )..
...when i've tryied it in 1 copy it didn't come out to be a good solution...
i've tryied 2 deep analsys + intuition... but still it's worse than intuition ak...
so finally i came back to intuition ak which is a bit slow but still a very good drawing engine.

Otherwise you can use dark confidant engine which is quite good too... if you don't want to use meditate/remora..

i did not find any other possible drwaing engine for my tezz....

but i'm thinking about key+top engine (but no blue cards)


CARONDIMONIO

[Cyberpunker]

The problem with 1 copy of Gush is that it will not show up often enough for you to build a deck that can exploit it think GAT. And it is not powerful enough to really warrant the tempo loss. It's also not reliable enough because it is often dead. You do not want to cast Gush early game when you want to lay down your islands and so you are better off having a cheaper draw spell.

[coolapc]

Mtgsalvation just spoiled a card in M10 called divination... sorcery,  draw two cards.  Will this be playable?

[Troy_Costisick]

Mtgsalvation just spoiled a card in M10 called divination... sorcery,  draw two cards.  Will this be playable?

Is Counsel of the Soratami?

[Caron]

..mmm.. looks interesting... but i would like to test it to see if it works...
it costs  3
it's a sorcery
but it's blue..
no synergy with artifacts like TFK...

...mmm...

i don't think it's better than intu+AK or confidant or remora... but i think it would be worth trying it.. maybe it's better than night's whisper...
we will see...

CARONDIMONIO

[Rubik_3x3x3]

Mtgsalvation just spoiled a card in M10 called divination... sorcery,  draw two cards.  Will this be playable?

Is Counsel of the Soratami?

No. Remora, Dark Confidant, and Night's Whisper appear to be the best three options. A singleton Careful Consideration might not be too bad, though. It looks at one more card, has a bit of an option (Instant/Sorcery), but costs U more.

Time will tell, expect to see a lot of Remora for a while. Then expect the Goyfs to even it out. Then we'll see.

[zeus-online]

I'm going to try out impulse and skeletal scrying before i consider anything else.
Then i'm going to look into intuition/ak if the above dosn't work.
Then if that dosn't work, i'm trying out confidant and/or night's whispers...

And if that dosn't work, i'm going to look hard for alternatives that does not require my opponent to play spells (remora) or have hideous drawbacks (meditate)

/Zeus

[Lurker101]

Covenant of Minds and Careful Consideration are out there. I happen to think Careful Consideration has more potential as a good opponent will probably let you keep your 3 draws from Covenant which in that case might as well be Tidings. On the upside Covenant of Minds only costs  and if your opponent doesn't let you keep your top three cards you put them in your yard and draw 5. Digging for 8 and potentially drawing 5 of those 8 for  is really really good but most skilled opponents will realize that. Both options are better than Divination but both seem to be inferior to Thoughtcast/ Remora+Confidant/ or Intuition AK.

[kalisia]

I think Gush is  a good option to replace one of the 3 TFK. But imo you have to play at least 15 islands.
I'm trying Compulsive Research, it seems to be OK, but it is necessary to play Misdirections to prevent opponent's ones. The card has the advantage of allowing to discard DSC, and in mid-game (I mean turn 3 to 5 approximately) , you will always have one land to discard to it , and so it will produce real card advantage.

[Rubik_3x3x3]

Something I was just thinking about is the Arcane Bauble engine. It's somewhat similar to TfK, and seems to have a lot of potential, but I'm skeptical anyone will put extensive testing into the idea because it seems a little silly. I'm certainly going to give it a shot. The main problem is that it takes up 1/5 of your total slots. Outside of that, it seems alright.

Skeletal Scrying is a good option, but that card in multiples seems difficult to handle because of both drawbacks. You won't have tons of cards you want to remove (unless you already did Will, then get rid of 'em all) and life is a resource that isn't terribly important for most of the game, but you might not want to launch off multiple Scryings for 4+.

Impulse is good for a dig, but doesn't give advantage. Another one worthy of definite consideration, but time will tell.

[MirariKnight]

I've been trying out Three Wishes lately. The  and the fact that it's not actually draw are kinda annoying, but its an instant (although playing it end of their turn isn't optimal) and it gives another out for Colossus. I just think Gush isn't very good without 3 others and Fastbond, especially given how few island there really are in the deck.

[Rubik_3x3x3]

I put a good amount of thought into Three Wishes and decided to not even try it.

If I get around to ordering Arcanes plus Baubles I'll give that a try. But I have no one to test with right now (everyone seems to be busy for about a week) and don't enjoy playing online, so we'll see if I get an opportunity to use the Arcane engine at any point.

Mystic Remora is quite good. It served as an Ancestral for me yesterday. If you can open with Mox, Land, Remora then you will be able to keep two mana up as long as you put a land into play each turn. Two mana can play a LOT of good cards. It might thrash everything but Fish. Needs more first-hand testing for me to know for sure, but it's done fine in tournaments.

[M.Solymossy]

I'll be the first one to say that the only viable englines for tezz are:

Remora
Bob
Intuition/AK

and if you're on Mars where they don't play Null Rod (Like Ceasar Fernandez) you can play Thoughtcast.

[Rubik_3x3x3]

Thoughtcast is an entirely viable option, as long as you don't over dedicate your manabase to artifacts. Tezzeret already runs all the Moxen, Lotus, Mana Crypt/Vault, Time Vault, Voltaic Key, and will likely step up to 2 Tops when Thirst is gone. Seat of the Synod can be risky facing Null Rod, but the deck needs to either not use them or have an answer to the Rod.

I'm not sure that I would opt into the Thoughtcast engine right off the bat, I definitely think Bob is probably the direction the deck will go in, but it's not very wise to count it out.

EDIT: Is it possible to retitle the thread "The Next Tezzeret Draw Engine" or something similar? We have barely talked about Gush.

[mulder]

How about Skeletal Scrying? End of turn, refill your hand can't be bad. It cannot be misdirected either.

[the_lord_shaper]

Hey guys, you all are forgetting Compulsive Research.

Sorcery, 2U (3)
Target player draws three cards. Then that player discards two cards unless he or she discards a land card.

Sure its a sorecy and can be misdirected, but it is better the counsel and mulldrifter.

[MaxxMatt]

Giving these drawers slots being uncontested for any "standard" Tezz list

R Thirst For Knowledge
R Library of Alexandria
R Ancestral Recall
R Fact Or Fiction
R Gifts Ungiven
R Brainstorm
R Ponder
1 Sensei's Divining Top

there are, IMHO, really few cool swap choices to do.

*  Sensei Divining Top#2 can be an auto added card in a field light on MW.dec and Fish.dec
*  Skeletal Scrying is my favourite one because it is both flexible and gamebreaking. While it usually munch only few grave cards ( such as NW but at instant speed ), it can be a solid hand refill when plenty of mana and pitch counters. It's mana and grave intensive. So, if your grave is hated out for some reasons, don't flood maindeck with Skeletals.
*  Gush It is another cool addition, neverthless to say, it can fuel broken plays.
*  Night's Whispers His only drawback consist on his Sorcery speed. Playing control strategies abuse of tricky EoT plays. You can't often rock on, tap.out and play NW safely without exposing too much or consequentely slowing down too much if expecting the proper manaontable/hand size rate. It is more than a fixer and less than a recognizable drawer: this issue will often let NW resolve uncontested and underestimated. Multiple NWs will become silently lethal for your opponents

Intuition for AK or DA is too much slots dependent and slow.
Dark Confidants are really strong but slower than NW and more hatable by removals or bouncers. My own Tezz version play White and Balance, so DConfidants will add other bad sinergies
All the other sorcery speed cards aren't even comparable to NW
Meditates are antisinergetic with Tezz and MRemoras are cool and strong but IMHO in the future they will be often easily hated out by CotVs#1 and opponents smart plays.

*    If I'm scared of adding too much black sorceries to maindeck, I will prefer MIXING up those three different cards : TFK#2 --> SDT#2; TFK#3 --> Skeletal Scrying#1; TFK#4 --> Gush.  Flexible, unpredictable and skill intensive. Every time you add singletons to a deck with a strong structure and good tutorage spells, you'll enanche player's impact on the game. If you feel able to master different situations in many ways thanks to a larger variety of cards, feel free to add singletons and benefit from them.


*    If I'm sure about the need of a more redundant and consistent drawer, I'll add a full set of NWs. TFK#2,#3.#4 + Ponder --> 4x of Nights Whisper. ( if you play 15 lands, I'll keep Ponder maindeck, not to low too much the number of 1cc fixers/early drawers. With 16 lands, it can be traded for NW#4 for sure. )


MAxxMAtt

[Qube]

Isn't Curier's Capsule not a viable option? sure it cost  but you only have to pay  twice. But I think that this is only possible when you do not expect null rod.

Gush is a very good card especially when you run Imperial Seal. Also is a good addition to fight Wasteland. And the ability to drain and then draw 2 cards is also very nice. As tezzeret-player I definitly would run Gush when you only want to change those 3 missing TfK.

[Leooooh]

Gush is a nice card, that we can study to add in Tezz, since the new restriction list. But I still think that, a Remora+Confidant mix would be much more useful. Both cards can be played in the first turns and have a great sinergy. If Remora is in play you just sit and build your hand. If Confidant is in play, independent of your oponent, you will draw a extra card every turn. But if both of then are in the game, well, you might be abble to draw lots of cards.
The only problem of using Confidant as our draw engine, is that it doesn't have a good sinergy with the idea of getting infinite turns. Playing with it without a Sensei's top might be risky, and even more dangerous if we have 2 of them!

As for the Night's Whisper, it seems to be the cheapiest unrestricted draw at the moment. The only problem (as was told before) is that it is a sorcery, and cannot be cast in Eot. Taking away this drawback, NW is awsome. Its 2 lifo for 2 cards period. You do not suffer anymore life loss, like Confidants.

I will be studying Confidant+Remoras and NW to see wich fits better.
Ahh another problem with NW......It is black, and sometimes fetching an Underground to cast whisper, and then see it getting wasted will hur a bit if do not draw any land.

-Leonardo

[Caron]

..i still prefer intuition ak...

but we could also try Memory jar and timetwister...

i've tryed timetwister in my tezz in the past but it was not so good, now that we have 3 TFK slots free, if you really want to try 3  solutions different from the clasccis (remora, bob, intu+ AK, night's whisper etc.) you could try:

+ 1 memory jar +1 timetwister + 1gush or   +1wheel of fortune... and see if it works.. if you play a comb-tezz they could be worth...

it could be a nice try...

CARONDIMONIO

[LUPO]

Has anyone tested the idea of all in on artifacts?  Going with a combination of Top/Capsule/Thoughtcast?

You will have to accept up front that you will basically scoop up your cards game 1 to null rod, but the draw power is very potent

[marriedwithchildren]

I'm using the key-top draw engine.  I've been looking into thoughtcast but would have to play like 2-3 repeals to help around the null rod.  still testing this yet though.

[vroman]

wait, what happened to strategic planning?

[Reckoner]

I'm new to the format and the forums. I was wondering if anyone had thought about Telling Time? Is it strictly worse than Impulse? Are neither good candidates to replace Thirst? Just some thoughts.

[bluemage55]

wait, what happened to strategic planning?

+1

Strategic Planning is an adequate replacement for TfK in many decks.

[Caron]

....mmm... strategic planning is a sorcery... and does not give card advantages..
in my opinion there are better options...

more over it's white borderde card.. i don't ant white bordered cards in my deck!!!! ...

CARONDIMONIO

[LennoxLewis86]

more over it's white borderde card.. i don't ant white bordered cards in my deck!!!! ...

CARONDIMONIO

=D
Cards like Strategic Planning, Grim Long or Imperial Seal are special exceptions to the WB rule don't you think?

I think Strategic Planning vs. Impulse is debatable because they both draw pretty deep for 2 mana, they both have their strengths and flaws. I don't think Compulsive Research or a sorcery that only draws 2 are good replacements. Bob is a good engine but not enough for a blue deck to rely on. You need more cards to manipulate your draws or you will end up mulliganing a lot I think. Control decks don't want to be doing that.

I think that Remora/Meditate is the best engine out there for Tez right now, although it's really boring.

[Jokah]

I wanted suggest a card myself, Lat-Nam's Legacy, instant, especially if used at end of opponent turn it could have a nice interraction in this deck.

[MirariKnight]

Lat-Nam's Legacy was interesting and kinda good in Oath for shuffling the Oath targets back in. Again it doesn't net card advantage and it's only good if it's cast EOT. Otherwise it's pretty terrible actually.
Strategic Planning seems much worse than Impulse to me. Impulse is an instant and digs one card deeper. Strategic Planning puts 2 cards in the yard, but not in the same way Thirst did. I has to be one of the top 3 of your library which seems pretty much like playing Goblin Lore to me.