[Premium Article] Notes on NuVintage and SCG $5K Breakdown

[Smmenen]

Why is looking at Black Lotus this way particularly useful?

I guess the answer to that question goes back to this:

The restricted list today is pretty much exclusively about two things:

1) Keeping the Drain (Force of Will) deck in check
2) Preventing decks that don't give you a turn

If that's true, then we can organize the restricted list into those two categories and sort accordingly.  That's what I've tried to do.

I think pretty much all of the recent restrictions can fall into these two categories sensibly.   Black Lotus' use in Fish may be quite potent, but it doesn't tie into either (1) or (2) (unless you count Fish as a Force of Will deck, which the DCI probably does).  

EDIT:
This mode of analysis is useful, also, because it allows us to see what, perhaps, doesn't belong any longer, as opposed to simply looking at cards by their function (tutor, etc) and the measure them by efficiency as to whether they belong on the restricted list or not.

Most importantly, we may have a serious problem on our hands: we may be at the point where there is no way to minimize the degree of dominance of the Drain/Force of Will deck, because of Time Vault and other factors.    As a result, the DCI has clearly indicated a willingess to unrestrict cards that could help serve (1) so long as it doesn't foster (2).   That means that this way of looking at the restricted list could help us identify cards that won't contribute to (2), but could help (1).   Cards like Consult or Balance are candidates under this analysis.

[GrandpaBelcher]

Honestly i'm pretty sure that consult is way too good to consider for unrestriction....It could be used in belcher

 Consult is not playable in Belcher for obvious reasons (you need 20 cards in your deck to Belch).

Consult is amazing in Belcher.  You only need 20 cards in your deck to Belch.  If you're going for a four-of (and much of the time you will be, getting Belcher itself), the chances of you removing more than 30 cards are very slim.  Consult is instant speed and one mana, which is already pretty good.  More importantly it puts the card in your hand, making it leagues better than Vampiric Tutor and Imperial Seal in an RGB Belcher.  Plus, even if you need to get Black Lotus (or another restricted card) and leave yourself with deck enough to belch, your chances aren't terrible.  Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.  I would definitely test Four-DCon Belcher, and I suspect it would be stronger than what we have now.

Now, that's different from saying Demonic Consultation is too dangerous to unrestrict.  I agree that DCon is best in decks with four-ofs, and would be far worse in Drains + Force + Restricted List.  However, fast combo is not everyone's favorite way to go.  Ask Nam Tran.  That DCon is best in Ad Nauseam and Belcher might still be enough to keep it restricted for the same reasons that Channel, Flash, and Trinisphere will likely stay restricted.  I have no problem with any or all of those cards coming off, but they do lend themselves to a "turn-one unfun" game that Wizards has so far tried to keep down.

[Smmenen]

Good point.   Conceded that Consult could be used in Belcher, but as I said before: if it allows more than 1 Belcher out of 120 decks to show up in top 8s, all the more reason to unrestrict Consult so long as it doesn't create a too fast belcher.   

[Diakonov]

Most importantly, we may have a serious problem on our hands: we may be at the point where there is no way to minimize the degree of dominance of the Drain/Force of Will deck, because of Time Vault and other factors.    As a result, the DCI has clearly indicated a willingess to unrestrict cards that could help serve (1) so long as it doesn't foster (2).   That means that this way of looking at the restricted list could help us identify cards that won't contribute to (2), but could help (1).   Cards like Consult or Balance are candidates under this analysis.

Another interesting point is that since the dawn of Vault/Key, FoW decks have started to come closer to merging with turn 1 decks.  The speed at which you can assemble Vault/Key means that the window of opportunity for other decks to win is smaller than ever, which is really starting to encroach on the turn 1 win.  In other words, we are balancing on a knife's edge between what kind of speed and efficiency we would need to outrace Vault/Key without falling into the consistent turn 1 win world.

[v4ino]

As having probably the most tournament experience with DC since it's restriction out of anyone I would be against the card coming off the restricted list. Even though I have played mid-range combo decks primarily, every time I see DC in my opening hand I think "First turn kill"? Out of all the viable cards still on the list it possesses too great a risk and might make Mtg too luck dependent with a first turn mentality of someone is going to die.

To not be all doom and gloom it is a skill dependent card (even though you may need some luck/good fortune) and most importantly it might force combo decks to be built "correctly" i.e. more like my vision. It may give aggro a boost as well.

Not to stir the pot too much; I would rather see Bargain unrestricted, I think it would be interesting...

[zeus-online]

Channel actually allows a 40%+ turn one Goldfish.  Consult does not.   

Have you tested this? The top 3 cards in belcher (for me atleast) is probably, in order: Lotus, Channel and Demonic consultation (Yes, in belcher i rate consult higher then demonic tutor).

With both belcher and ad nauseam having such a good chance at thouroghly abusing DC i would really hate seeing it unrestricted....Also if the suggestion is to make turn1 kill decks strong to fight off tez i would hate playing vintage. In all of magic getting turn 1 killed is the 2nd worst way for a game to end (IMO the worst way is to get locked out turn 1, although they certainly resemble each other), it's just not fun...Maybe not even for the one doing the turn 1 kill.

The last thing vintage needs is more speed.

[JACO]

I'd sooner hope they unrestricted DT than Consultation.

When enjoying some pizza at Giordano's with Steve and a bunch of the Ohio and Wisconsin cats at GP Chicago earlier this year, I believe it was Steve who asked what we each felt was the best card in Vintage. Most people were split between Black Lotus or Yawgmoth's Will, with a few Ancestral Recalls thrown in here or there, and maybe a Tinker or two. I think I was the only person who said they felt Demonic Tutor was the best card in Vintage. It's immensely splashable and gets anything you ever could need (including most of the singletons in a Vintage deck that happen to be the most powerful spells in Vintage) for a paltry two mana.

As Steve alluded to Demonic Consultation doesn't do that. However, Demonic Consultation is insane enough that I certainly would never want to see it restricted in a competitive environment, except possibly for selfish reasons (like Owen, Soly, and I salivating at the thought of combo dreams that even Workshops probably couldn't stop).

Consult is not playable in Belcher for obvious reasons (you need 20 cards in your deck to Belch).

I would DEFINITELY play Consult in Belcher, if I was to ever play Belcher. It is way too powerful not to, and your primary kill conditions are usually a 4 of and a 3 of (if you're playing red). That being said, there's probably a better deck to play with 4 Demonic Consulations than Belcher.

[M.Solymossy]

I'd sooner hope they unrestricted DT than Consultation.

When enjoying some pizza at Giordano's with Steve and a bunch of the Ohio and Wisconsin cats at GP Chicago earlier this year, I believe it was Steve who asked what we each felt was the best card in Vintage. Most people were split between Black Lotus or Yawgmoth's Will, with a few Ancestral Recalls thrown in here or there, and maybe a Tinker or two. I think I was the only person who said they felt Demonic Tutor was the best card in Vintage. It's immensely splashable and gets anything you ever could need (including most of the singletons in a Vintage deck that happen to be the most powerful spells in Vintage) for a paltry two mana.

I said DT too!

[Smmenen]

Consult is not playable in Belcher for obvious reasons (you need 20 cards in your deck to Belch).

I would DEFINITELY play Consult in Belcher, if I was to ever play Belcher. It is way too powerful not to, and your primary kill conditions are usually a 4 of and a 3 of (if you're playing red). That being said, there's probably a better deck to play with 4 Demonic Consulations than Belcher.

I already conceded that point. As I said above:

Conceded that Consult could be used in Belcher, but as I said before: if it allows more than 1 Belcher out of 120 decks to show up in top 8s, all the more reason to unrestrict Consult so long as it doesn't create a too fast belcher.  

To your other point, one of the reasons DT is so amazing is that it finds anything for 2 mana.   Consult does not.   Consult doesn't find the best cards in the game, not just because it can't find singletons without great risk,  but more importantly because the decks that use those singletons can't afford to play consult because it removes too many other singletons in the process.   Thus, the Tez deck could use consult to find Time Vault, but that might involve removing all the other win conditions.  Same for TPS and, say, Yawg Will or Tinker.   

[JACO]

To your other point, one of the reasons DT is so amazing is that it finds anything for 2 mana.   Consult does not.   Consult doesn't find the best cards in the game, not just because it can't find singletons without great risk,  but more importantly because the decks that use those singletons can't afford to play consult because it removes too many other singletons in the process.   Thus, the Tez deck could use consult to find Time Vault, but that might involve removing all the other win conditions.  Same for TPS and, say, Yawg Will or Tinker.

The problem (or limitation) with your analysis of Demonic Consultation is that you keep referring to existing decks (such as Tezzeret and TPS) for the framework of how a Demonic Consultation deck would be built. Consult would be best suited in other decks, so of course it's not going to seem powerful if you need to find a lone Tinker. You have to realize that the decks in the format would change dramatically if Consult was legal as a 4-of.

[Troy_Costisick]

To your other point, one of the reasons DT is so amazing is that it finds anything for 2 mana.   Consult does not.   Consult doesn't find the best cards in the game, not just because it can't find singletons without great risk,  but more importantly because the decks that use those singletons can't afford to play consult because it removes too many other singletons in the process.   Thus, the Tez deck could use consult to find Time Vault, but that might involve removing all the other win conditions.  Same for TPS and, say, Yawg Will or Tinker.

The problem (or limitation) with your analysis of Demonic Consultation is that you keep referring to existing decks (such as Tezzeret and TPS) for the framework of how a Demonic Consultation deck would be built. Consult would be best suited in other decks, so of course it's not going to seem powerful if you need to find a lone Tinker. You have to realize that the decks in the format would change dramatically if Consult was legal as a 4-of.

Yes, but the results would be fairly predictable.  It wouldn't help Force/Drain decks all that much, but the other Pillars - especially Dark Ritual - would get a boost.  If Force/Drain is the problem, then DC is a logical card for unrestriction since it helps everything else.


Peace,

-Troy

[Smmenen]

To your other point, one of the reasons DT is so amazing is that it finds anything for 2 mana.   Consult does not.   Consult doesn't find the best cards in the game, not just because it can't find singletons without great risk,  but more importantly because the decks that use those singletons can't afford to play consult because it removes too many other singletons in the process.   Thus, the Tez deck could use consult to find Time Vault, but that might involve removing all the other win conditions.  Same for TPS and, say, Yawg Will or Tinker.

The problem (or limitation) with your analysis of Demonic Consultation is that you keep referring to existing decks (such as Tezzeret and TPS) for the framework of how a Demonic Consultation deck would be built. Consult would be best suited in other decks, so of course it's not going to seem powerful if you need to find a lone Tinker. You have to realize that the decks in the format would change dramatically if Consult was legal as a 4-of.

One of my teammates made the same point.  Here's the problem.

Back in the day, people would say "Restricted List.dec," and they were referring to the Combo deck.

Today, there two archetypes in Vintage that are heavily based on the restricted list: The "Drain deck" and the "Combo deck"

The "Drain deck" runs Thirst, Scroll, Fact, Gifts, Brainstorm, Time Vault, Tinker+ DSC/Leviathan, and Yawg Will, among other cards, and sometimes runs LoA. 

The "Combo deck" runs Necro, Bargain, Desire, Jar, Twister, and sometimes Wheel and LED.

They share much of the same card pool, including Moxen, Lotus, Ancestral, Will, Tinker, etc, but they also don't share alot of the same card pool.

Currently, those decks run about 3-4 unrestricted _spells_ in quantities of two or more.   The Drain deck runs Force, Drains, and probably a third card, like Bob/Night's Whisper or Repeal/Remora or Intuition + AK.    The Combo deck runs Dark Ritual, Duress, and maybe Force or Cabal Ritual.   

Both of these decks play about 25 or more restricted cards.   And even where it doesn't run restricted cards, it runs alot of singletons related to it's restricted cards, such Tendrils or Leviathan/DSC or Voltaic Key, three cards that complement Y Will, Tinker, and Time Vault respectively.   

These decks are basically pre-built based upon the way the restricted list has been crafted.   There can be 15 or so card differences between maindecks between variants of these decks, depending on such things as color choices, whether to run marginal cards like Wheel or LoA, respectively, and so on.   But I do not believe that these decks can change their colors so dramatically that they could use Consult. 

The field of Vintage is: these two decks and everything else.    Everything else can use consult because you are playing 'normal' decks with many fewer restricted cards and lots more 4-ofs. 

Fitting 4 Consult into the Drain deck means NOT relying on Time Vault/Tez/Yawg Will/Tinker to win.    That's not gonna happen.   

[Beralt]

I am not for the unrestriction of Demonic Consultation.  True it's unrestriction would speed up decks that could compete with Drain/Tez/Vault decks, but since Blue and Black have long been the dominant colors in vintage, you might as well unresrict Channel, at least allowing Green to shine for a short time until it is shut down again.  But the answer to the dominance of drain decks is not by unrestricting cards that decrease interaction and accelerate the format.  Vintage needs new cards that answer Artifacts and Blue, preferably cards that can interact on turns 0-2.  Cards in colors other then Blue & Black cards might even diversify the format.  Another cycle of Leylines, or another alternative pitch style card - but I digress.

Liked the article, liked the Analysis of why they restricted TFK - don't necessarily agree with the whole pillar structure but I think that tracking the format from this perspective might be helpful.

[voltron00x]

Most importantly, we may have a serious problem on our hands: we may be at the point where there is no way to minimize the degree of dominance of the Drain/Force of Will deck, because of Time Vault and other factors.    As a result, the DCI has clearly indicated a willingess to unrestrict cards that could help serve (1) so long as it doesn't foster (2).   That means that this way of looking at the restricted list could help us identify cards that won't contribute to (2), but could help (1).   Cards like Consult or Balance are candidates under this analysis.

Another interesting point is that since the dawn of Vault/Key, FoW decks have started to come closer to merging with turn 1 decks.  The speed at which you can assemble Vault/Key means that the window of opportunity for other decks to win is smaller than ever, which is really starting to encroach on the turn 1 win.  In other words, we are balancing on a knife's edge between what kind of speed and efficiency we would need to outrace Vault/Key without falling into the consistent turn 1 win world.

Just wanted to bump this post because I feel like this is an extremely truthful statement, and everyone sort of flew past it.

One of the problems with Tezzeret that I often come back to is that the deck is difficult to combat because it takes multiple forms.  I strongly object to those who treat the terms "Tezzeret" and "Drain decks" as synonyms.  Some builds are clearly built as control decks (for instance, Soly's SS Tezz), others are control with a combo kill (typical Drain versions running TFK), some are light control decks that try to speed into one critical-mass turn not unlike TPS in their own way (I would lump Mastriano's Philly Open 3 list here, with its 4 FoW, Remora, Bob, and ton of tutors,with no Drains), and some are leaning right into straight-up combo decks (such as Beaver's Tezz with Dark Rits and 1 Tendrils that made T8 at the Philly Open 3 and then won the next Blue Bell).  You can know your opponent is playing "Tezzeret" and still have no idea what you're in for.  Many of these decks ARE built to blow you out on turn 2 or 3 if at all possible.

Combo decks running Consult would out of necessity look different than what we see right now.  Would Belcher play Consult?  Yes.  Does that mean we'd see a mass exodus of people from other decks into Belcher suddenly?   I highly doubt it.  I think you can lump the card in with Crop Rotation, or even Balance - its a powerful card that might enable new strategies at the expense of others, perhaps for good, and perhaps not, but its definitely a card that you can have a reasonable discussion about taking off the list without Vintage imploding on itself.  

[Shock Wave]

Another interesting point is that since the dawn of Vault/Key, FoW decks have started to come closer to merging with turn 1 decks.  The speed at which you can assemble Vault/Key means that the window of opportunity for other decks to win is smaller than ever, which is really starting to encroach on the turn 1 win.  In other words, we are balancing on a knife's edge between what kind of speed and efficiency we would need to outrace Vault/Key without falling into the consistent turn 1 win world.

I have long stated that once you start blurring the lines between combo and control, such that control no longer has to really "control" anything, Vintage is nearing a state of degeneracy. I feel that regardless of the recent changes, the Key/Vault combo will continue to be ubiquitous in this format, thereby accelerating the rate at which many archetypes are able to win. Vintage is already a fast format, and this brutally efficient combo is not something it needed.

[Smmenen]

One of the problems with Tezzeret that I often come back to is that the deck is difficult to combat because it takes multiple forms.  I strongly object to those who treat the terms "Tezzeret" and "Drain decks" as synonyms.  Some builds are clearly built as control decks (for instance, Soly's SS Tezz), others are control with a combo kill (typical Drain versions running TFK), some are light control decks that try to speed into one critical-mass turn not unlike TPS in their own way (I would lump Mastriano's Philly Open 3 list here, with its 4 FoW, Remora, Bob, and ton of tutors,with no Drains), and some are leaning right into straight-up combo decks (such as Beaver's Tezz with Dark Rits and one 1 Tendrils that made T8 at the Philly Open 3 and then won the next Blue Bell).  You can know your opponent is playing "Tezzeret" and still have no idea what you're in for.  Many of these decks ARE built to blow you out on turn 2 or 3 if at all possible.

The Thoughtcast version is actually the fastest of all.    It's the Meandeck Gifts equivalent of Tezzeret.   Rich Shay was playing it at Origins, and it was so brutally fast. 

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Channel actually allows a 40%+ turn one Goldfish.  Consult does not.   

Could you please present how you arrived at this conclusion? I would think that if you can't get 40%+ Turn 1 win with 4x1-mana Demonic Tutors+the usual restricted pile then nothing can do it. I mean Demonic Tutor might be a better overall card since it can be used in "drain shells" as well as combo but in terms of how much better they make particular decks I'm pretty sure vegeta is right in saying that 4xConsult will make a better turn-1 deck than 4xDemonic Tutor.

However, maybe voltron is right in saying that considering how degenerate Vintage has become since the unerrata of Vault 40% turn 1 may not even matter compared to the consistant power current decks have. His mention of Balance and the recent unrestriction of Crop Rotation made me realise it doesn't even matter if Balance comes off the restricted list. They would be overpowered in a healthy format, but not in what we have now. I'm willing to bet that if anyone asked pre-Vault if we would consider unrestricting Crop Rotation we'd all laugh our asses off at them. Now it probably will barely make a splash at all. "onoz strip lock I only need 2 mana to win lolololololol@you"

[Smmenen]

I would think that if you can't get 40%+ Turn 1 win with 4x1-mana Demonic Tutors+the usual restricted pile then nothing can do it.

It's not a demonic tutor.   You can't Consult for Tinker and expect to have Leviathan in your deck, or Consult for Will and expect to have Tendrils still in your deck, etc.

Also, it's just untrue that if 4 Consults can't produce a 40% win goldfish it can't do anything.  It can do quite a bit!   Shop Aggro can find Shops, Stacks, Juggernauts, Wastelands, Crucibles.  Ichorid can find the right hate card.  Ad Nauseam can find rituals, tendrils or Ad naus, etc.  That doesn't mean it's a turn one win, but it could produce more stable later turn victories.

I mean Demonic Tutor might be a better overall card since it can be used in "drain shells" as well as combo but in terms of how much better they make particular decks I'm pretty sure vegeta is right in saying that 4xConsult will make a better turn-1 deck than 4xDemonic Tutor.

However, maybe voltron is right in saying that considering how degenerate Vintage has become since the unerrata of Vault 40% turn 1 may not even matter compared to the consistant power current decks have. His mention of Balance and the recent unrestriction of Crop Rotation made me realise it doesn't even matter if Balance comes off the restricted list. They would be overpowered in a healthy format, but not in what we have now. I'm willing to bet that if anyone asked pre-Vault if we would consider unrestricting Crop Rotation we'd all laugh our asses off at them. Now it probably will barely make a splash at all. "onoz strip lock I only need 2 mana to win lolololololol@you"

Flash makes TIme Vault look like a piker.   Time Vault is rarely a turn one win and infrequently a turn two kill. 

[Vegeta2711]

Got bored waiting to watch Public Enemies, so made a list and then goldfished it 25 times when I got home. Something to do during dinner I, heh.  Deck definitely isn't optimal, but whatever.

// Winnar
        4 Tendrils of Agony
        4 Ad Nauseam
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
// Spells
        3 Night's Whisper
        4 Cabal Ritual
        4 Dark Ritual
        4 Pact of Negation
        4 Demonic Consultation (woo-woo)
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Time Walk
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Ponder
        1 Brainstorm
// Mana
        3 Chrome Mox
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Lotus Petal
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Mana Vault
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
        2 Chromatic Sphere
        4 Chromatic Star
// Land
        4 Forbidden Orchard
        4 Gemstone Mine

Goldfish stats
win t1: 11111 11111 1
win t2: 11111 111
fizzles: 11111 1

If I had a reasonable opportunity to go for a T1 win, I went for it regardless of how locked my T2 was. You win a lot of turn 1 games by tutoring for 1-of's or Dark Ritual with Consult. At least half the turn 1 wins was fetching Lotus or Yawg's will.

Also won one game with 9 cards left in library after double Consult.  Lost 4 to consult and 2 to Ad Naus. hitting a ridic amount of copies. There was one legit 'OMG OW' Consult blowout and the other Consult losses were because I tutored for 1-of and either removed all four tendrils (lol) or lotus was in top 6.

If you aren't tutoring for 1-of's when they'll win you the game, then you aren't playing the card right. If you optimize it, who knows, maybe you get the mythical 50% everyone wants. I definitely think that would be in the ballpark if Brainstorm was unrestricted.

[zeus-online]

I count 11 turn one wins out of 25 games....That's pretty close to 50%. 6 Fizzles is alot though.

Also...whats up with the spheres? Any particular reason for them?

I'd imagine that 4 duress would make the deck better, but i'm not gonna try it since i sincerely doubt that we will ever see demonic consultation unrestricted.

[DubDub]

I don't see Vampiric Tutor in that list, wouldn't that significantly improve your turn two win probability?  Is the life loss a problem with Nauseam?  It's got to be better than the 6th chromatic, right?

[Smmenen]

That's alot faster than I would have expected -- but that's neither here nor there.    It's not an issue we have to address or face at the moment unless the changes to the restricted list don't improve the situation.   I still think though that Demonic Tutor is infinitely worse to unrestrict.  I'm certain you could create far more turn one victories with unrestricted Demonic than unrestricted consult.  It only takes 5 mana and two DTs to win the game with Yawg Will.   

[zeus-online]

Did anyone suggest unrestricted demonic tutor? That'd be even more insane....For long-ish decks it's the 1st or 2nd best card in the deck (the other being lotus)...

Honestly, whats up with these suggestions lately? Any and everything is being suggested for unrestriction these days.

[Smmenen]

Did anyone suggest unrestricted demonic tutor? That'd be even more insane....For long-ish decks it's the 1st or 2nd best card in the deck (the other being lotus)...

Vegeta said that he'd rather DT be unrestricted than Consult.

The point of the thread isn't to talk about unrestrictions so much as to explain the reconceptualization/reframinjg articulated by the DCI of the restricted list, and what that means for Vintage players. 

[Troy_Costisick]

Did anyone suggest unrestricted demonic tutor? That'd be even more insane....For long-ish decks it's the 1st or 2nd best card in the deck (the other being lotus)...

Honestly, whats up with these suggestions lately? Any and everything is being suggested for unrestriction these days.

I can't be certain, but it may speak to a general belief that the changes to the B/R List won't make a dollar's worth of difference in the metagame.  Just throwing that out there.  We'll have to see.

-Troy

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

To throw in more untested and speculative ideas:
I think more and more that it would be good to unrestrict:
ponder
burning wish
flash
fact or fiction
gush
thirst for knowledge
frantic search
library of alexandria
regrowth
strip mine (although we have crop rotation now, so this might not be right)
windfall
imperial seal.
why?
Because it would not make blue decks a larger portion of the meta, and encourage more different blue strategies, some of them can easily be hated, such as gush strategies, fact or fiction is very expensive, regrowth is win-more, library is bad against everything but control (needle?), meddling mage would be much better, thirst isn't even broken, it's just stable, frantic search does little without academy, windfall is very situational, strip mine would be no problem, and imperial seal is sorcery and card disadvantage (<-- MD extirpate anyone?) And there would not be many more t1 wins.

[Vegeta2711]

Did anyone suggest unrestricted demonic tutor? That'd be even more insane....For long-ish decks it's the 1st or 2nd best card in the deck (the other being lotus)...

Honestly, whats up with these suggestions lately? Any and everything is being suggested for unrestriction these days.

because I was half-joking and honestly I don't care anymore, the b/r list is a joke and I stopped playing Vintage (online or off) almost entirely at this point. The only reason I even did the Consult thing was I wanted to see if it could make SX into what it actually wanted to be, I actually am mildly interested in seeing if a deck can get 50% kill rates w/o Brainstorm. I think unrestricting tutors of that caliber at this point is sort of silly when all the lesser search engines remain restricted but w/e. The thing with unrestricted DT is everybody can find what they want at that point, which at least gives some semblance of skill and options versus what we have now. Like, to top it off, DT doesn't even really make decks win on turn 1 that much more. Nothing gives a big enough mana boost to justify it unless you already had like lotus or 6-7 mana and fetch will with it.

also AR, will and lotus are better than DT in most combo, but again, doesn't really matter. it's like on a scale of 1 to 100, lotus being 500 and AR and Will being 200, DT is only coming in at 100, while the next closest is like a 70. all the cards are far far far better than everything else in the deck, it just so happens the other cards win you the prize without investing as much mana into it.

Vintage is a big sack out format because they restricted all the cards it takes any brains to use optimally. Consult is pretty stupid because it's always correct to tutor for Rit, Ad Naus or Lotus (if 1st turn win). And like that's all you'd ever use it in anyway, because if you were playing it in a 'fair deck' you already fucked up because your playing a FAIR DECK.

The problem with all unrestrictions at this point is it either makes combo-control or combo better (consult, Gush, ponder, brainstorm, etc) or they do nothing of relevance. Thing is, that's the end-game of the format, everyone knew from the beginning once we hit a certain point that combo-control or straight combo were going to be the only 'reasonable' choices left in Vintage simply due to power creep and the nature of the format. We already hit that point years ago, the only difference now is the gap has widened so much between those decks and normal decks that you can't ignore it anymore.

Also note that the combo deck I posted was purely a goldfishing deck with the Pacts thrown in as a token throwaway. Even if somebody played it, all they'd accomplish is ruining some other people's days and their own when the deck would inevitably blow up. It's the best Ad Naus deck I've ever played, but that doesn't say much.

I don't 'get' what people are even trying to do with unrestrictions. Unrestrict anything you want, blue combo-oriented decks are still going to be the absolute best, you just want to lie to yourselves about how you could play something else.

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

Well, at least people would play different strategies, as seen in the golden era. (the blue decks almost all were gush based, but there were many different decks with different plans and matchup percentages.)

[Vegeta2711]

Well, at least people would play different strategies, as seen in the golden era. (the blue decks almost all were gush based, but there were many different decks with different plans and matchup percentages.)

you just want to lie to yourselves about how you could play something else.

/thread

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

I would think that if you can't get 40%+ Turn 1 win with 4x1-mana Demonic Tutors+the usual restricted pile then nothing can do it.

It's not a demonic tutor.   You can't Consult for Tinker and expect to have Leviathan in your deck, or Consult for Will and expect to have Tendrils still in your deck, etc.

Also, it's just untrue that if 4 Consults can't produce a 40% win goldfish it can't do anything.  It can do quite a bit!   Shop Aggro can find Shops, Stacks, Juggernauts, Wastelands, Crucibles.  Ichorid can find the right hate card.  Ad Nauseam can find rituals, tendrils or Ad naus, etc.  That doesn't mean it's a turn one win, but it could produce more stable later turn victories.

I said if Consult can't produce 40%+ turn 1 win then nothing can. I didn't say the card would do nothing. Clearly vegeta has disproved your random assumption that it couldn't hit 40%+ even with extremely rough testing. I'm sure 50%+ would be a cakewalk if it was ever truly tweaked.

Flash makes TIme Vault look like a piker.   Time Vault is rarely a turn one win and infrequently a turn two kill. 

Flash had an unrestricted Demonic Tutor(Merchant Scroll) and Ancestral Recall(Brainstorm) to work with. Flash itself was never a bomb card, it was the other stupid shit it was allowed to run around with unrestricted that made the deck so good. Don't even try to compare the cards like that. Unrestricted Flash right now wouldn't even be on the radar compared to Vault.