Just another day at the office (xtreme games report)

[Isaac85]

So since this could be my last vintage event for a while I decided to do a little report on the day. Guess it pretty much started around 1am where i met up with Kurt at his job. I asked him if he was going to make the trip up with me to xtreme games and after a lot of debating on his part he finally says yes but doesn't know if he wants to play. I swing by his house at 7am and he doesn't answer his phone. I catch that my phone is blinking ( usually meaning i got a text or some voice mail) and know and behold its him testing me at 6am how hes not going. I am more than a little upset at this but decide to just go up there for the practice and get some cobwebs out of my system. I haven't been to a tourney in a couple of months so I knew this was my last chance. I make my way up to Chicago and come to find out soly had called me. Well in the mixed of returning his phone driving you know how it goes I went the wrong way and got horribly lost. I ended up in Wisconsin and had to backtrack my way to the event. After a long ass ride I finally get there and with the help of the store owner and two others I sleeve and register my deck. I don't know why but I have never played stax before. I don't mind the deck but after I considered my options I wanted to do well with something that's not familiar to me. I notice nick has been tearing it up on the east coast with his version of 5c stax and so I played his list from the dan herd memorial tourney.

1x Ancestral Recall
1x Tinker
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
4x Goblin Welder
2x Gorilla Shaman
1x Crop Rotation
1x Black Lotus
1x Mana Crypt
5x Moxen
1x Mana Vault
1x Sol Ring
2x Powder Keg
4x Thorn of Amethyst
3x Crucible of Worlds
4x Tangle Wire
1x Trinisphere
4x Smokestack
1x Karn, Silver Golem
1x Triskelion
1x Sundering Titan
1x Barbarian Ring
1x Bazaar of Baghdad
1x Strip Mine
1x Tolarian Academy
3x Gemstone Mine
4x City of Brass
4x Mishra’s Workshop
4x Wasteland

SIDEBOARD:
1x Balance
1x Darkblast
4x Leyline of the Void
3x REB
3x Chalice of the Void
2x Pithing Needle
1x Relic of Progenitus

Round 1 Ub control/aggro/mill

He wins the die roll and we get underway. I don't really know what the purpose of this deck is. He plays a card first turn that gets any one from my library and exiles it. He choices Karn and then passes. I don't recall much of this game except for that play and other on his part that had me mill cards till I milled 4 lands. I eventually get a trisk out and go to funky town on his face.

-1 stax -1 tangle -1 crop +3 reb

game 2 is another strange one. He opens up with land and passes. I play welder lotus and some other stuff and pass. He plays lotus and I'm thinking I'm in deep trouble. He casts the same spell that mills me and then twin casts it. So I mill till I get 8 land into the graveyard. Lucky for me I had 5 lands in my opening hand. I don't know if hes ever played stax but a welder out is never a good thing especially when you mill them. I eventually get sundering titan into play and its all downhill from there. I talk with some of the guys I know that go and round two starts up.

Me vs mr lord homer cat

My record vs the lord of the cats has never been good. I got crushed by him at astro and I really don't like this but I came to play and not whine about getting paired against decent opponents so I sit down and get the game face on. I tell jimmy that I am playing seriously today and I hope to one day join team serious he laughs and I tell him I'm 1,000 percent serious. I don't really remember much about the games because I didn't take notes but I did write down that he hates karn and its his worst nightmare. So you can pretty much guess that karn made his presents and ate some moxen and then did his thang. He didn't get there all the way for me but Jimmy scoops when he sees my board of nastiness. Game two was just some good top decking on my part. I get a mox monkey and the right time and blow up his stuff my board is stax at 1 monkey crucible land bar ring and i think a mox. Well monkey swings in for turn after turn after turn until jimmy is able to get off a rack and ruin. I top deck like a champ and get a academy and kill his hopes and dreams again. Maybe the lord of the cats has a better version of this story but I dunno I call's them as I see's em. We shake hands and then the lunch break happens after the round. I walked to the cv's got some stuff came back and waited around till we got back underway.

Round 3 bug fish

So this round doesn't go well for me at all. The majority of hate for this deck is in the side so game 1 is a hard match up. Needless to say I get smoked plain and simple he counters my guys and gets dark con on board then another one then to just slap me in the face another one. Like drawling 3 cards a turn plus whatever can trips he had isn't enough. I bring in the hate though chalice reb balance dark blast its on like donky kong or so I thought. I keep a decent hand which is full of land destro and some other cards. I don't know why but I kept this hand and he plays goyf evently. I never find a colored mana source and get bazaar online. I bazaar for 4 turns drawling 12 cards. You do the math opening with 7 drawl 2 then drawl 12. after 21 cards in a 60 deck I don't see 1 of the 7 sources I have. I'm pretty upset and ask just for shits and grins if he had a counter. He says no and I shake hands and go on my merry way a little ticked off.

Round 4 vs duby

So I haven't played duby before but from talking with him and just watching his games I can tell hes a cool cat. Game 1 goes in my favor game 2 I don't mull and keep a sketchy hand and loose and game 3 I win. He might be able to tell you more about the games but in game 1 it was pretty much smokey and I think welder action. Game 2 he has dude and I don't have shit. Game 3 was close but I eventually tinker up titan and go to funky town on his lands. He bounces him I get more lands then I replay him getting another land and its all she wrote.

so after 4 rounds im 3-1 and drawl in the 5th 3-1-1 and make top 8 for the third time in a row at xtreme.

Top8 vs UB control tezz

We sit down and he mentions how bad his match up against me is. I tell him anything is possible and we shake and play the match. Game 1 was interesting to say the least. I have down some minor lock pieces and he tinkers for something. I hope its the big man but find out its the smaller man. I get a smoke stack up then in a act of despair I get a tangle wire which seals the deal. Game 2 he gets another early tinker out and just goes to town. Game  is the most interesting one and hell at least I didn't fuck it up. As I mentioned before I am new to the stax game and sometimes you blank out. He gets a tezz on board and then uses his ability to find vault. He then m scrolls up force and passes. I eot vamp tutor. I have no clue what could save me at this point because I had no clue he was playing tezz. I should have thought it out more when I sided in but I knew he had force with one card of which I don't know about. I ponder a few things my hand is wire/welder/karn/brass/ something else I get a reb and take my turn. I pray he doesn't have a blue card and cast reb he douse and it gets forced. One thing I do notice is that he has a mana crypt out so it's not auto scoop. I play the wire after thinking about it and pass my turn. Well what can I say to a man that rolls damn good when it counts. I believe he rolled 7 to 10 times with mana crypt. He only took i believe 9 dm so that's 3 rolls he lost. It happens but I was still disappointed. I ask if theirs prices threw top 8 and I get store credit. I had an extra dual from the last tourney and trade it in along with the credit for cash and a mana crypt lol love the irony there. I had fun playing and although I'm disappointed in how things turned out I realize it wasn't because of a play mistake and that hey I was on the ball and playing magic the way I should be playing 1,000 percent serious.

props
james for letting me borrow some needed cards
soly for play testing a few matches with me
Chicago for being nice and breezy ( was in the 90's where I live )
xtreme games for helping me a ton ( sleeve my deck getting me to the event after getting lost )

Slops
talking to soly while I should have been paying attention to the road
Illinois for having people pay 1.50 to get into the fucking state from Wisconsin
Cvs for being so damn far away
Mana crypt rolls how we hate and love you all at the same time

[Twaun007]

This could quite possibly be the greatest tourney report I have ever read.

I especially love this hum dinger.

My record vs the lord of the cats has never been good. I got crushed by him at astro and I really don't like this but I came to play and not whine about getting paired against decent opponents so I sit down and get the game face on. I tell jimmy that I am playing seriously today and I hope to one day join team serious he laughs and I tell him I'm 1,000 percent serious.........


I top deck like a champ and get a academy and kill his hopes and dreams again.

How were the Thorn of Amethyst? There are way to many dudesweats entering the battlefield where I live to even think of running Thorn of Amethyst over Sphere of Resistance.

[Implacable]

I eot vamp tutor. I have no clue what could save me at this point because I had no clue he was playing tezz. I should have thought it out more when I sided in but I knew he had force with one card of which I don't know about. I ponder a few things my hand is wire/welder/karn/brass/ something else I get a reb and take my turn. I pray he doesn't have a blue card and cast reb he douse and it gets forced.

Could you have gotten Barbarian Ring here and shot his Tez?  Did you have threshold?

[Isaac85]

how were the Thorn of Amethyst? There are way to many dudesweats entering the battlefield where I live to even think of running Thorn of Amethyst over Sphere of Resistance.

They were media core. It seemed to me that I never drew them when it mattered and I played 2 aggro decks so I sided them all out for chalice and red's.

Could you have gotten Barbarian Ring here and shot his Tez?  Did you have threshold?

This is a very good question I didn't even think of that. I don't recall it's been a few days but I hope I only had like 2 to 4 cards in there because I did have a gemstone mine with one final counter on it that would have counted.

[Prospero]

If TPS isn't the toughest deck to play in Vintage, I'd argue it's 5CStax.

Nice job on the showing.

[Tha Gunslinga]

If TPS isn't the toughest deck to play in Vintage, I'd argue it's 5CStax.

Seriously?  I was under the impression that it was the easiest.  Just play lock pieces and watch your opponent collapse. 

[Suicideking]

If TPS isn't the toughest deck to play in Vintage, I'd argue it's 5CStax.

Seriously?  I was under the impression that it was the easiest.  Just play lock pieces and watch your opponent collapse. 

You just play the most expensive card in your hand every turn.

[Prospero]

I ran Drains, in Keeper and BBS, from 1999-2004.  In the last two years I won 6 Moxen, 1 Time Walk and a LoA at tournaments on Long Island.  

I find playing Drains easier than playing Shops.

It may seem easy, but the difference between a quality Shop player and the average Shop player is the difference between Stax being tier 1 and tier 3.  

Not to mention some of the truly ugly board states that you have to win out of.  Turn one Energy Flux?  Or at 1 life staring down 3 creatures.  

Discount it if you want, I believe it.  

[islanderboi10]

I ran Drains, in Keeper and BBS, from 1999-2004.  In the last two years I won 6 Moxen, 1 Time Walk and a LoA at tournaments on Long Island.  

I find playing Drains easier than playing Shops.

It may seem easy, but the difference between a quality Shop player and the average Shop player is the difference between Stax being tier 1 and tier 3.  

Not to mention some of the truly ugly board states that you have to win out of.  Turn one Energy Flux?  Or at 1 life staring down 3 creatures.  

Discount it if you want, I believe it.  

I agree.  Having played Staxx for roughly 2.5 years, it is very tough to play well.
Good work on the top 8.  Interesting decklist, though.
How were the Thorns in the Main?
And why Balance in the Side?

Good Work!

[M.Solymossy]

balance in the sideboard is just a mistake.

[Prospero]

balance in the sideboard is just a mistake.

Depends on your field.  It's a bad discard spell against Tezz. 

[Tha Gunslinga]

There was a ton of Fish, and there's ALWAYS a ton of Fish.  It should definitely have been main.  And it's fine against Tez; it kills their big guy, and if that's Inkwell, there's not a lot else that will.

[M.Solymossy]

[balance is ] a bad discard spell against Tezz. 

Are you for real?  Your whole goal in the matchup is to stunt their mana, so they will usually have 5 or 6 cards in hand to your 1 or 2.  Nothing beats them like balance does.

[Prospero]

[balance is ] a bad discard spell against Tezz. 

Are you for real?  Your whole goal in the matchup is to stunt their mana, so they will usually have 5 or 6 cards in hand to your 1 or 2.  Nothing beats them like balance does.

I had a long response typed out and then realized that it was a complete and utter waste of my time.  I guarantee you that I've played 5CStax v. Tezz more than you have.  I put in at least 100 games between 5/9 and 6/6.  If you think that what I have to say has no merit, then that's fine.  I'm not here to argue with anyone.  I've tested my deck to the limit and I am happy with it.  You don't have to be.

[Isaac85]

I agree.  Having played Staxx for roughly 2.5 years, it is very tough to play well.
Good work on the top 8.  Interesting decklist, though.
How were the Thorns in the Main?
And why Balance in the Side?

Good Work!

The balance in the side is a meta call. I pretty much was strapped for time and put the deck together on the fly with help. I really didn't have time to decide meta calls or anything like that so I just kept it as is. Me and jimmy were talking about it being in the main and it has it's better moments and then again it has it's man I wish this could cycle. The thorns are a good main board choice and I wouldn't have had them in the side. They were mostly media core for the day because I only played them a couple of times.

[M.Solymossy]

I had a long response typed out and then realized that it was a complete and utter waste of my time.  I guarantee you that I've played 5CStax v. Tezz more than you have.  I put in at least 100 games between 5/9 and 6/6.  If you think that what I have to say has no merit, then that's fine.  I'm not here to argue with anyone.  I've tested my deck to the limit and I am happy with it.  You don't have to be.

So now we're in a pissing contest huh?  I'll just come out and say it, you're statement has no merit.  100 games?   Is your tezzeret pilot any good at all?   Balance is the card I fear MOST when playing against stax, REGARDLESS what deck I'm playing.  It's just THAT DAMNED GOOD.

[credmond]

Balance is an absolute bomb in 5c stax. Not only is it an awesome offensive weapon, it can also be your best defense when you are in a losing situation (inkwell or confidants or goyf or goblin tokens on the opponent's board), making it your mvp as far as restricted cards go. Balance belongs in the main deck before ancestral does. Ancestral main deck in 5c stax is a liability since you are giving the opponent a target for the otherwise dead misdirects in their hand. Its better to bring your ancestral in after your opponent sides out his misdirects.

[Prospero]

I had a long response typed out and then realized that it was a complete and utter waste of my time.  I guarantee you that I've played 5CStax v. Tezz more than you have.  I put in at least 100 games between 5/9 and 6/6.  If you think that what I have to say has no merit, then that's fine.  I'm not here to argue with anyone.  I've tested my deck to the limit and I am happy with it.  You don't have to be.

So now we're in a pissing contest huh?  I'll just come out and say it, you're statement has no merit.  100 games?   Is your tezzeret pilot any good at all?   Balance is the card I fear MOST when playing against stax, REGARDLESS what deck I'm playing.  It's just THAT DAMNED GOOD.

A pissing contest would require what you're saying to upset me.  It doesn't; it's not relevant. 

You haven't addressed my initial point, which was how much, if at all, you've tested this match-up.  Given your lack of response, I'd imagine that you haven't really, if at all.  Instead of discussing your fears of a particular card, wouldn't it behoove you to at least test a given thing before you dismiss what others who have tested this have to say?

I won a small tournament today, playing against Tezzeret twice and at no point did I want Balance, or wish that it wasn't sitting in my sideboard.  I didn't want it when I played Mastriano in the finals of either the Philly Open II or the finals of the Dan Herd Memorial Tournament.  I didn't want it when I top 8'd two Blue Bell's ago, and I didn't want it when I won the side event there. 

Metagames are different.  Balance is an exceptionally busted card if it's used properly.  It is not a panacea, it is a niche card that is devastating when played in the proper context.  It is not good in the Tezzeret match-up because:

1.  Many Tezzeret decks run one creature.  And if they're running Bobs, I'd rather just have a Darkblast. 
2.  A good Tezzeret pilot knows to search up basic lands - often having just as many basics on the board as I have non-basics.  I hold down their mana just fine as is, and Balance does not guarantee that I will accomplish this.
3.  Sphere effects (which are of primary importance) up the casting cost of the card - making it more difficult to play and time properly.  If I have to choose between upping their curve or timing a Balance, I'm going to up their curve.
4.  I run quite a bit of hate for their lands, Moxen and curve.  Balance does not automatically serve as an additional Wasteland/Strip Mine.  It does nothing to hate their curve or their Moxen.  It does not stop Vault/Key in this respect, whereas the rest of my deck is built to stop this.

When I was looking for a Tezzeret list to put together I didn't put together what I thought should be in there, I looked for the best list possible.  Paul Mastriano's list had been performing exceptionally well, and that's the list that I put together.  When I was looking for combo variants, I put GWSx together, I know you've done well with it, and more power to you (quite literally as it were).  I've done well with my Shops.  I don't need or want the respect of the Vintage community.  But I think it's foolish that you won't even consider something because it seems antithetical to you.  You're operating under precepts that may no longer be viable. 

I'm willing to acknowledge that people who test a given list and consistently perform well with it have something right.  Your methods of thinking/testing do not affect me, but it would seem rather limited to stunt yourself in the manner in which you seem to be.

I was a member of the old TMD, under a different name, and I enjoyed both the collegial atmosphere and the sense of camaraderie.  It was possible to have a discussion about the pro's and con's of cards, lists, and theories while maintaining a civil tone.  This will be my last post in this thread in part because things seem to have so drastically changed.

[M.Solymossy]

That's actually the type of response I was waiting for!


While I don't disagree that Balance is poor in context, I disagree with you not wanting it at all times.  I've tested versus various stax builds for months while preparing for the ICBM Open tournament, and more often than not, it was the Mind Twist effect of Balance that just ended the game.   I agree that it's not good on it's own, but when combined with more pressure (smokestack is annoying), it can just end the game.    And when testing on the other side of the table, I would usually tutor up a Balance to make them discard their hand.   This also depends on the Stax build.  Some builds keep cards in hand, my build has 2x Bazaar, and 3x Crop Rotation, so it's rather easy to make Balance into Mind Twist.

[2nd_lawl]

I won a small tournament today,

Did You Now?

[Prospero]

I won a small tournament today,

Did You Now?

I did.  You should have seen the hand I kept in game one of round 4.  7 spells, no mana.  My opponent almost lost, we ended up drawing...

[The_spooky_kid]

Balance should never be in the sb unless you have 4 burning wish to find it.  Balance is seriously one of the most busted cards stax has to offer.  Against tezerret type decks its primary function is cutting off lands and making them discard.  Granted it can take down the occasional dsc/ inkwell leviathan I would rarely see the card as dead.  Bazaar of Baghdad combined with smokestacks and LD, easily make balance one of the most busted cards 5c stax has to offer.  If i were to build any 5c stax list it would be one of the 1st cards on my list to include main deck nearly every time. Whatever your meta game is balance always has a function.