Necro Painters

[Natxete]

HI:

First of all, this is my first post in this forum and  I would like to take the oportuity to my presentation.

I´m retired for magic about to years. I was a constructed and limited player, playing no more than 2 vintage tournamnts in my live. But now, im tryng to play casual magic games and y choose eternal format.

I´m working in a deck I call Necro Painters, that include both, the clasic enginer of a necro decks with discard efects and the combo of painters and grindstone.
The fact is that the inclusion of red is awesome in my oppinion because we can take access to 1cc counterspells.
I´m gonna paste the list to explain the mechanics.

4 Dark ritual
4 red elemental blast
2 pyroblast
3 duress
3 thoughtseize
1 hymn to torach
1 mind twist
1 skeletal scryng
4 Dark confidant
4 painters
3 grinstone
1 demonic tutor
1 vampiric tutor
1 demonic consultation
1 Yawgmoths will
1 necropotence
1 senseis divining top
1 mana vault
1 mana crypt
1 sol ring
1 black lotus
1 mox jet
1 mox ruby
4 balands
7 fetchlands
2 wasteland
1 strip mine
4 swamps

I´m thinking in change the strip effects for ancient tomb, this mean less control but more acceleration OR enter 2 gorilla shaman, i dont know what cut, but 3 strip effect, 2 gorillas plues 6 reb with the painer could be a good mana denial.

Other cards I am testing are wheel of fortune and tendrils/ETW if I play with ancient tomb, cutting hymnto and mind twist, making the deck less controler but giving more options to combing and another win plan.

What do you think is better to promote, the control or combo qualities?

Thanks and gretings

[mr.grim]

I think its a neat idea.Somethings id change.....
cut 2 fetch lands .... add the third waste land and a lotus petal.
cut the hymn and the mind twist.....add a tendrils and a the last thoughtseize.
cut one painter....and a cab.rit.

If you already play rits and will tendrils is an easy effective fit.

Other cards to think about..
Grim tutor.imperial seal. nights wisper. manamorphose. magus of the moon.

.....grim

[Ufactor]

Land, mox, Dark Ritual, Enlightened Tutor, cycle Street Wraith, cast Necropotence sounds like it could be the win.

[elgrillo]

I tried the painter-grindstone combo in a black-control shell some time ago.
To my surprise it works pretty well and its so much fun to play.
I didnt try the red splash, but it looks solid. I used to play a Lion's Eye Diamond for extra speed.

[Natxete]

First of all sorry for my English, I promise to take classes.

Now i´m playing Necro Painters V1.1
This version is most oriented to the combo game play lossing some control cards like strip effects and mind twist in favor to more acceleration and tendrils plan.

The deck is truelly strong and stable with good math up against drain decks and fish. The dredge and stax math up are more dificult pre sideboard. If stax play a 1 or 2 chalice our win options are very limited. Dredge can combo more fast as necro painters, but this version have turn 1 and 2 kill, but is not ussual.

First of all here is the list, next explanations
 
NECRO PAINTERS 1.1

4 Dark ritual
4 red elemental blast
2 pyroblast
4 duress
3 thoughtseize
1 skeletal scryng
4 Dark confidant
4 painters
3 grinstone
1 Tendrils of agony
1 demonic tutor
1 vampiric tutor
1 demonic consultation
1 Yawgmoths will
1 necropotence
1 Weel of fortune
1 senseis divining top
1 mana vault
1 mana crypt
1 sol ring
1 black lotus
1 mox jet
1 mox ruby
1 Lotus petal
4 balands
7 fetchlands
2 Ancient tomb
3 swamps

Why I designed this deck?
I was looking for interesting funny and soft-powered decks to began playing vintage. Fish is a very popular deck and I was searching for a less exploited idea. I was searching for a black based deck, with dark rituals, necropotence, Yawmoths will, demonic tutor, wastelands null rods..., because I thought it could be the base of a neat unspowered deck.

I Found a Black-Green Oath by Matthew Edwards,that make top 8 at GB Vintage at National 2008.
The problem of this theck is that is a Combo that need 2-3 turns to kill, and is so vulnerable to echoing truth, swords... and... there is no option to return creatures you draw to your library. It could be scroll rack, but you lose the powerfull of null rod.

Then, i think that Painter grindstone were a more powerfull two cards combo that oath.
REB is a great cards in a blue dominated metagame, but with painters they win a lot.
8 possible Duress effects, himn to tourach, mind twist, 8 posible REBs(+Painter) and strip effects were a very very strong disrupting pool. Yawmoths will, necropotence, tutors, skeletal scryng, confidants... seemed a good pool to search a 2 pieces bombo (and the pieces werent restricted).

The combo was colorsess, so I could play cards as mana vault, sol ring and mana crypt, and optimice dark rituals. These pool of cards made so fast the combo and mind twist and skeletals were so big.  
 
I decided to optimice the idea and the numbers of cards, and the result were so good. A fast combo deck with a lot of disruption. But there were a problem. The game were lightly definite with two possibles game plans. A hard disruption or  a fast combo. Then I remembered TRIX deck. The original Donate Illusions combo with necropotences, duress, mana vults... The disruption of the deck were focused to enter the combo, not to gain control, with this concept in mind, I designed this Necro Painters deck.

The game plan is duress your oponent, searching protect your combo (or not be combated) and use the REBs Idem, killing null rods when painters is in play or counterpelling the oponents counterspells, and be as fast as you can to put the two combo pieces in play. If we have painter, and a few duress/reb, we could play it without fear, because is easy to protect. Is not necesary to have grinstone as well to play both.

We play a lot of spells in few turns,(Ritual+Sol ring+ dures+ duress+painter)and our hand could be desapear easilly, so I incorpored wheel of fortune, but it was unproductive when i was playing mind twist and hmnto. In one funny game I look with senseis divining top, seeing Ywill on top, and play wheel, the efect to discard the rest of the hand made more productive wheel that timetwister (in this situation, of course).

If you have the two pieces of the combo or one and a tutor, is so easy to kill in turn 2-3, but is possible in one.(In a normal situation we will play carefully looking to be sure we can play the combo, with duress and rebs, but in a math up like ichorid, TPS or Stax, the fast of the deck is the best solution)

Been a based artifact combo deck is interesting to see the capacity we have to fight against null rod, thanks to reb+painter and the tendrils mode on option.

The sideboard will be designed to fight againt graveyard (dredge, recursive wastelands, gaeas blesings...) and artifacts. Ancient tomb is so good to play rack and ruin against stax and leilines in second or third turn. And another game plan (such us negators) could be interesting.

I hope you like the post.
Regards.

[Implacable]

I had absolutely no faith that this would work out, but you know, the list you've ended up at is actually pretty interesting.  I'm definitely testing it and seeing what works.  I'm thinking a sideboard that leans heavily on Stax and Ichorid, yes?

[Son of Serra]

A quick comment: You should have a plan for Chalice of the Void set to "1". I know Duress and and Thoughtseize could hit it before it hits you, but they could still topdeck it or lay it down while you are on the play and just shut you out of the game. Perhaps consider cutting maindeck Wheel of Fortune for a Rack and Ruin...

[Natxete]

Stax usually play chalice for "0" in the first game, but if our oponent play for "1" the game is very very very hard, but... there are risks that it´s necessary to be ready to run. But...  In second and third game our sideboard will destroy chalice and friends easily. A lot of decks loss to dredge the first game, but these decks beat it in second and third game with solid antigraveyard sideboard. We are going to do the same against a turn one chalice of one. We play a hard sideboard to beat it. Our sideboard is focused in Stax and ichorid. 4 leylines and rack and ruins are indispensables.

Implacable, please, said me about your testing and your opinion of math ups, weaknesses that you have seen...


Gretings

[Implacable]

Chalice@1 problem came up almost immediately: the deck folds to it like origami.  Post-board it's still a big problem (yeah, I run artifact destruction post).  The deck really rips Drains, or at any rate, it can; but as has come up frequently in recent weeks, decks without Force of Will still randomly fold to decks with Time Vault, and this is one such deck.  So in summary: Shops are trouble, Drains are alright.

[Son of Serra]

Stax usually play chalice for "0" in the first game,

In my experience, a good Stax player often plays Chalice at "1" in the first game. It may not be as common of a play as it was when Brainstorm was around, but it is still a great play because it hits Ancestral Recall, Vampiric Tutor, Imperial Seal, Mystical Tutor, Duress, Thoughtseize, Mystic Remora, Voltiac Key, Sensei's Divining Top, etc.

but if our oponent play for "1" the game is very very very hard, but... there are risks that it´s necessary to be ready to run. But...  In second and third game our sideboard will destroy chalice and friends easily. A lot of decks loss to dredge the first game, but these decks beat it in second and third game with solid antigraveyard sideboard. We are going to do the same against a turn one chalice of one. We play a hard sideboard to beat it. Our sideboard is focused in Stax and ichorid. 4 leylines and rack and ruins are indispensables.

My point is that it is unwise to leave yourself defenseless against a fairly common play, even in the first game. Stax does not get hated out as easily as Ichorid with intense sideboard hate. Just conceding the first game against Stax is not the same as conceding the first game to Ichorid, so give yourself every chance you can to win game one.

Chalice@1 problem came up almost immediately: the deck folds to it like origami.  Post-board it's still a big problem (yeah, I run artifact destruction post).  The deck really rips Drains, or at any rate, it can; but as has come up frequently in recent weeks, decks without Force of Will still randomly fold to decks with Time Vault, and this is one such deck.  So in summary: Shops are trouble, Drains are alright.

What is your sideboard, out of curiousity? Ingot Chewers and Rack and Ruins? Have you toyed with Meltdown?

[the boogie man]

Have you thought about adding green? Reap would be awesome, and would help either the disruption portion of the combo portion, bringing back multiple pieces. it would also let you turn into tarmogoyf aggro post side.

[Lurker101]

I'd also think about cutting Demonic Consultation because you're running so many 1-ofs. What have your experiences been with consultation so far? If you want another 1 mana tutor than Gamble could actually work better, there's always the chance that you could lose your card but it seems just at least as risky as Consultation. Also it's red, so it's in color, and it's unrestricted so you could run 4 (I don't think I'd do that though).

[Natxete]

Reap is so interesting, as well as Tarmogoyf, but three colors make dark ritual and ancient tombs less optimal.

I usually play the consultation to search one combo piece  when I have the other, or REB to destroy null rods, vaults... when pinter is in play, or to play the combo with protection against FOW/Drain. For this use Consultation works well. Search Necropotence, Yawmoths will... isn´t the best use of the card, I know the risk, XD. Be carefull.
Our hand could dissapear so fast playing ritual, vault crypt, duress... for this reason gamble isn´t a good option I think.

Thanks for the coments!

[hitman]

Ingot Chewer is the most mana efficient answer to Chalice for one.  If you're running into that a lot, you may want to consider running some number of them mainboard.

[the boogie man]

As an example of a list with green:

4 painter
4 confidant
3 grindstone
2 tendrils
2 ad nauseaum
1 yawg will
1 necropotence

3 thoughtseize
3 duress

4 reb
4 dark ritual
3 reap
1 demonic tutor
! vamp tutor
1 demonic consultation
1 imperial seal

3 bloodstained mire
2 delta
3 badlands
2 bayou
2 swamp

5 mox
1 sol ring
1 lotus
1 petal
1 vault
1 crypt

The ad nauseaum supports both the controllish and the comboish side of the deck, being able to play it at instant speed. and without force of will, there is a good chance that it will end the game on the spot. Reap also is a beating when painter comes down. basically yawgwill 2-4. as an instant. there is also lots of protection in the form of multiple rebs that turn into vindicate counterspells, as well as 6 duress effects.

The only thing is that you can't set painter to black and blue, unless you get 2. but if you think you can combo off, or think that you can overwhelm the opponent in card advantage, go for black.

For the sideboard, I would definitely suggest 3-4 ingot chewer, since it is 1 mana and avoids spheres and chalice @ 1. Goofy is also a 4 of, allowing you to switch to painter- vindicate aggro. perhaps a cabal rit, a tendrils and another nauseaum to switch to a faster combo deck, too. what are your thoughts?

[Harlequin]

Have you thought about running Empty the Warrens as a 1 or 2 of?  It seems like even a modest opener with a rit, an artifact or duress, a land and EtW for 6-8 dudes is a decent low-commitment start.  6 chumps can certainly can put the crush on aggro, aggro/control, or stax.  It could concievibly race a slow tezz start. 

[the boogie man]

That actually seems like a really good suggestion. probably 1 tendrils, 1 warrens. that way, you could combo for 3 and have a very relevant clock on the board.

I also realized not too long ago that 2 reaps (one can be in the grave) and a black lotus, with a painter out, is an infinite combo. it also combos with a rit and a petal.

[Elfrago]

The deck is interesting 
But six blasts seems a little too much to me, they're dead vs Shop and Ichorid decks.
I would cut a couple for a Imperial Seal and a Molten Frame (wich is a nice maindeck answer against Chalice, Null Rod and such...)

[LennoxLewis86]

It looks like a solid deck. It's very interesting to say the least..
I think it lacks speed to compete with Shop decks and Ichorid decks. This is a real problem, you have too much maindeck stuff you need to board out that it almost becomes useless to try and adopt sideboard strategies against both. With 12 discard/REB it's tough to create a sideboard which addresses all different match-ups.

It looks like you will have a good match-up against Drain and Storm as well as blue Painter decks but is it enough?

I'd suggest adding Imperial Seal and two Grim Tutors. This will simply improve the decks ability to find Painter to activate your REBs against certain decks. Although missing Ancestral Recall as a key tutor target for the Seal will make it a little bit weaker. You can always tutor for Necro, Lotus, Will, Painter etc. though.

What makes it so interesting is that the combo indeed is colorless making Mana Vault, Mana Crypt and Sol Ring powerful cards. Combined with more jewelry and rituals, why not include a Yawgmoth's Bargain? I'd consider throwing in all moxen to help the cause of t1 Painter/Confidant.

[the boogie man]

Against shop, ingot chewer is awsome out of the board, as it avoids a lot of things. And the combo is pretty quick, plus it plays a lot of permanents and such, so perhaps the stax match would be a little better than you anticipate. You can board in more combo as well, if you need to win faster.

[Natxete]

-1 fetch land (manaflood)
-1 duress
-1 REB
+1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
+1 Empty the warrens
+1 Imperial seal

What do you think?

Thanks for all coments!

[Justin]

I tried a similar deck a while ago but with a few changes.

Goblin Welder seemed like a cheap on-color way to get back either combo piece. It works well with gamble & the recently unrestricted entomb, while throwing shop decks off somewhat. Spoils of the vault is another consideration for a combo deck that packs so many cheap 4-ofs, but generally its too suicidal.

The problem I ran into and was echoed in earlier posts were chalice at 1. Ingot chewer shines here, but its tough to have a reliable out against chalice if your other tutors & such are nerfed.

[Bone]

I tried boogie man's list -1 tendrils +1 ETW, -1 Imperial Seal, +1 Wheel of Fortune on mws today. Was pretty good. Used 4 Tarmogoyf, 4 Yixlid Jailer, 4 Ingot Chewer, 3 Tormod's Cryp as SB. Very fun to play and looked like my opponents had a hard time figuring out what they where facing.

[Natxete]

After some time out of magic I return to work in Necro Painters.  I made some changes  from the past month list. Hear is  the list I´m testing now, giving me a  good impresion. The sideboard is so random and need more test and ideas, but is and aproximation of what I want to play.

NECRO PAINTERS
4 Dark ritual
3 red elemental blast
2 pyroblast
3 duress
3 thoughtseize
1 skeletal scryng
4 Dark confidant
4 painters
3 grinstone
1 Tendrils of agony
1 Empty the warrens
1 demonic tutor
1 vampiric tutor
1 demonic consultation
1 Imperial seal
1 Grim tutor
1 Yawgmoths will
1 necropotence
1 Weel of fortune
1 senseis divining top
1 mana vault
1 mana crypt
1 sol ring
1 black lotus
1 mox jet
1 mox ruby
1 Lotus petal
4 balands
7 fetchlands
1 Ancient tomb
3 swamps


SIDEBOARD
4 Crash
2 Ingot chewer
3 Tormods Crypt
2 Faerie macabre
2 Tombstalker
2 Pyroclasm

[the boogie man]

I think that, in this deck in particular, ad nauseaum might be better than scrying, just considering that you would most likely draw way more than 4 cards for 5 mana. And you do not need anything in the yard to cast it. I really am king of fond of the green splash too, though. It seems that you need only 1 red mana at a time, so I wouldn't be that hard to add in a bunch of bayou. It allows for reap, Which I think is really cool, as well as tarmo in the side, turning this into a brg aggro (w/ confidants) that also allows for a combo finish.

   I also wanted to ask someone whos played with reap how it plays out.

[RecklessEmbermage]

I think that, in this deck in particular, ad nauseaum might be better than scrying, just considering that you would most likely draw way more than 4 cards for 5 mana. And you do not need anything in the yard to cast it. I really am king of fond of the green splash too, though. It seems that you need only 1 red mana at a time, so I wouldn't be that hard to add in a bunch of bayou. It allows for reap, Which I think is really cool, as well as tarmo in the side, turning this into a brg aggro (w/ confidants) that also allows for a combo finish.

   I also wanted to ask someone whos played with reap how it plays out.

I have played reap in control and as long as you can manipulate it, it's silly strong (I play it in an astral slide deck meant for multiplayer that abuses darkest hour, which obviously has little to do with vintage). Double reap works great in giving large CA over time, like a life from the loam or scroll rack/land tax on steroids.
I don't have any experience with it in combo, but it seems like it should be good turn 4 and onward if you have played aggressively or after a resolved wheel or some other brokenness, but isn't really comparable to will IMO, since it is so much more demanding.

I wouldn't play it here, since it would mean turning off the REBs before going off. Adding an ad nauseam or two looks like a much stronger move, since its offensive, rather than defensive (drawing new cards, rather than used cards), has better synergy with REB and keeps the deck strong versus wastelands.

[the boogie man]

I know it isn't quite a will, but with painter out, reap gets pretty sweet, especially if you have multiple rits in the yard. And it would happen much sooner than turn 4 if you really needed it to.

Also, I don't think that naming black for reap would make blue cards uncounterable by rebs.

[RecklessEmbermage]

Also, I don't think that naming black for reap would make blue cards uncounterable by rebs.

Ah, no. Of course not. My bad. I somehow thought it would leave you open to disruption when going off, but you could still counter counterspells.

You'll have a strong incentive to keep servant on blue, even against blue decks, since a good deal of the spells you'll want to counter and almost all the permanents you'll want to destroy will be non-blue otherwise. 2 painters on the table at once is asking a bit much.

A deck based on painter/grindstone, reap and lifeforce (possibly vexing shusher) could be fun and possibly competitive? Has anyone tried? Black gives you duress, rituals, tutors, and confidant.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

every painter list i've ever played has sb'd at least 3 ingot chewers for cotv @1. i've never been unhappy with it.

[Tha Gunslinga]

every painter list i've ever played has sb'd at least 3 ingot chewers for cotv @1. i've never been unhappy with it.

They toast Null Rods as well--they're absolutely amazing.