Of Rods and Drains

[Ufactor]

Read this first ->  For reference:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=36446.0


This week I went looking for answers to the new meta game, and found this wonderfully written article by Implacable.  Most of the points are still very relevant a year later.  The only major thing that has changed is, of course, that Tezzeret, not TPS is public enemy number one.

Also, with the printing of everyone's favorite planeswalker and the re-re-re-errata of Time Vault, the reasons to play Tezzeret.dec are numerous and overwhelmingly compelling.  It would seem, initially, that Tezzeret, the Seeker is the center of the premier, if not only existing, control deck in the format.  I am hard-pressed to find purpose in *not* running Tez.

...except for Null Rod.  I am going with the justification that you should never join them, if you can beat them.

How amazing!  After some quick brainstorming, I started to get an inkling that this could actually work.  What's even more exciting is that this utilizes some very current, fresh punditry regarding cards that make up the pillars of Vintage.  Smmenen, and others have cited that, for as long as they are unrestricted, the top decks in Vintage will always revolve around Mana Drain, Dark Ritual, Mishra's Workshop, Bazaar of Baghdad, and Null Rod.

Why not combine two or more of these cards to create a newly viable deck (no, not UbaStax)?  Null Rod and Mana Drain integrate very well in insomuch that they have overlapping purposes.  They are both permission cards that, when resolved, deny access to a number of spells.  Null Rod, in theory, has a way of countering 10-15 cards in an opponents deck.  This clears the way for Drains to target only the really important stuff.  At best, Null Rod creates a temporary situation in which a combo or Tez player cannot win.  At worst, Null Rod is a defacto Back to Basics.

Here's a working list after a few matches and one hundred plus gold-fishings:

4 Force of Will
4 Impulse
4 Mana Drain
4 Mana Leak
2 Negate
4 Null Rod
4 Ophidian

1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Echoing Truth
1 Platinum Angel

Ancestral Recall
Brainstorm
Mystical Tutor
Time Walk
Tinker

Black Lotus
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire
Sol Ring
2 Flooded Strand
7 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 Energy Flux
SB: 4 Sower of Temptation (Oh look, you played a creature.  Thanks for the Ancestral, n00b!)
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Trinisphere

Most of the cards here are, while not self-explanatory, covered in previously-existing articles written about MUC.  The above link does a more than adequate job of explaining what the deck is supposed to do.  If anyone has questions about specific cards, please PM me for clarification.  While I invite all feedback, I ask that posters keep in mind that this is a mostly untested deck.

I would like to, in particular, hear opinions from Kowal, Dan Carp, TK, Soly, and the grand daddy of MUC, Smmenen.

[Implacable]

Well that was a nice compliment.  Thank you.

Questions:

1) Talk to me about how the deck does against Remora.  Do you find you get into counterwars when they have a Fish on the board, and therefore lose?  Or can you wait it out?

2) Sounds like you've played only a few matches, which is fine but unlikely to lead to revelations.  One of the problems I've had with new decks in this format is that they look good on paper, but can't do more than go even with Tezzeret, because it's just that good.  What's your matchup percentage, really, against Tez?

3) Do you find that you have enough countermagic to consistently stop combo lists?  14 might be a little low for a deck this controlling.

4) Again, once you've tested more, talk to me about your Stax matchup.  How do you square uo.

5) This is a minor but increasingly pressing concern: how do you deal with a resolved Confidant?  He's being played a lot nowadays in non-creature decks, just as a main draw engine, so I doubt you'd board in Sowers to deal with him, but at the same time, he seems like he spells trouble.

[the_lord_shaper]

I have a few suggestions for your deck; the first being Glen Elendra Archmage as a drain target, and the second being Cold-Eyed Silkie over Ophidian, it has evason plus it actualy deals damage.

[swawagon]

When running Wastes, Stripmine, Fetchies, and Tinker; a single Crucible of Worlds could provide many long term benefits and an excellent drain sink.

I also like Glenda as another creature that it is something to safely cast when facing Mystic Remora. And Glenda is not only 2 counterspells, but a double fog affect against Tarmos or other un-Trampled beaters. Probably 2 over the Negate slots.

[AngryPheldagrif]

I would like to, in particular, hear opinions from Kowal, Dan Carp, TK, Soly, and the grand daddy of MUC, Smmenen.

Well for one you could use to hit the gym a little more often, and for another I'd recommend a clean shave and a shorter, tighter haircut.

Oh, you mean on Mono-U? Cut Null Rod for Chalice, Rod is garbage maindeck and you don't care about Tezz's win. You can just counter him. On that subject, Tinker/dudes is a shitty win. Just run 2-3 Tezz and a Vault. Your backup plan is Tezz overrun. Your tertiary plan is Ophidian beats. Chalice gives you effectively Null Rod on the play, and plays at 1 to cut off a lot of your opponent's stupidity. Cut Brainstorm, too. Singleton is garbage and you don't run many shuffle effects. Ditto on Mystical Tutor since you're cutting Tinker. Run a couple Powder Kegs or Back to Basics depending on metagame in their place. Powder Keg ruins a lot of decks' days and is good maindeck against Ichorid. B2B just slams a lot of trash. Use the board space from lack of Chalices (no Rods in the board) for Ichorid hate. Wastes and a lonely pair of Crypt's is begging to get you 2-0'd every time.

[the_lord_shaper]

I would like to, in particular, hear opinions from Kowal, Dan Carp, TK, Soly, and the grand daddy of MUC, Smmenen.

Well for one you could use to hit the gym a little more often, and for another I'd recommend a clean shave and a shorter, tighter haircut.

Oh, you mean on Mono-U? Cut Null Rod for Chalice, Rod is garbage maindeck and you don't care about Tezz's win. You can just counter him. On that subject, Tinker/dudes is a shitty win. Just run 2-3 Tezz and a Vault. Your backup plan is Tezz overrun. Your tertiary plan is Ophidian beats. Chalice gives you effectively Null Rod on the play, and plays at 1 to cut off a lot of your opponent's stupidity. Cut Brainstorm, too. Singleton is garbage and you don't run many shuffle effects. Ditto on Mystical Tutor since you're cutting Tinker. Run a couple Powder Kegs or Back to Basics depending on metagame in their place. Powder Keg ruins a lot of decks' days and is good maindeck against Ichorid. B2B just slams a lot of trash. Use the board space from lack of Chalices (no Rods in the board) for Ichorid hate. Wastes and a lonely pair of Crypt's is begging to get you 2-0'd every time.

CUT BRAINSTORM AND MYSTICAL TUTOR!!!! There's a reason why they are restricted, not playing these in a deck with blue is insane.

[AngryPheldagrif]

I would like to, in particular, hear opinions from Kowal, Dan Carp, TK, Soly, and the grand daddy of MUC, Smmenen.

Well for one you could use to hit the gym a little more often, and for another I'd recommend a clean shave and a shorter, tighter haircut.

Oh, you mean on Mono-U? Cut Null Rod for Chalice, Rod is garbage maindeck and you don't care about Tezz's win. You can just counter him. On that subject, Tinker/dudes is a shitty win. Just run 2-3 Tezz and a Vault. Your backup plan is Tezz overrun. Your tertiary plan is Ophidian beats. Chalice gives you effectively Null Rod on the play, and plays at 1 to cut off a lot of your opponent's stupidity. Cut Brainstorm, too. Singleton is garbage and you don't run many shuffle effects. Ditto on Mystical Tutor since you're cutting Tinker. Run a couple Powder Kegs or Back to Basics depending on metagame in their place. Powder Keg ruins a lot of decks' days and is good maindeck against Ichorid. B2B just slams a lot of trash. Use the board space from lack of Chalices (no Rods in the board) for Ichorid hate. Wastes and a lonely pair of Crypt's is begging to get you 2-0'd every time.

CUT BRAINSTORM AND MYSTICAL TUTOR!!!! There's a reason why they are restricted, not playing these in a deck with blue is insane.

So after I offer justification for cutting both, your counterargument is to yell loudly and say that they're restricted without actually substantiating your argument, with, say, anything remotely relevant?

Because for some god-only-knows reasoning I am a kind man, I will resummarize and elaborate the arguments.

My argument for cutting them:
Mystical Tutor is card disadvantage in a deck with exactly one target (in my builds), that being Ancestral Recall. Finding Recall is infinitely less appealing when you have no other options. Additionally, it is a drastically less optimal turn 1 play than pretty much anything else, especially if you have a Mox. It nets a +1 card advantage for UU, putting it about on par with things like Thirst for Knowledge which the deck doesn't play either. It also telegraphs your next play which is clumsy and dangerous.

Brainstorm, absent a shuffle effect, is just a rearrangement of the lawn ornaments and a cantrip, neither effect really matters when the vast majority of the deck is 4-ofs and even further redundant in its effects. You have almost no singletons to dig for, thus seeing 3 new cards isn't much of a boon as anywhere else. You have only fetchlands to shuffle them away and produce any positive effect. This is not a deck that sits on lands or fetchlands due to its linear draw, control, and wins. You rarely can save an extra. Brainstorm, like Mystical Tutor, also interferes with Chalice for 1 which is an incredibly strong play from the deck.

Your argument for keeping them:

[the_lord_shaper]

 Sorry for sounding as if I was yealling, but it was more a gut reaction to your post, it was just so surpirsing. Now on to my justification, first Mystical Tutor. You say it only useful for only really finding A-Call, well that not the case. Mystical can find TimeWalk, A-Call, your singleton Bounce Magic, and a counter if one is needed. Oh yeah, it gets Tinker too. Now for Brainstorm; well really if you don't see how good this card is now, then I don't think it's possible for me to convince you otherwise. Your arguments for these two cards are sound in a aggro deck and even then both cards would be aventagous to have even in that deck aswell.

[Gekoratel]

Mystical Tutor is a fine card but it is much stronger in decks where you have a lot of powerful options to choose from.  Even in decks that run Mystical Tutor you'll often find players are boarding it out because it really is just a filler card that causes card disadvantage.  I know in most decks I've played with Mystical its usually one of the first cards I look to cut when sideboarding.  In this deck there are only two strong options Recall/Tinker so I could certainly see an argument for not running Mystical.  As for Brainstorm I'll agree its much worse in this deck than those running a full tutor package but with 7 shuffle effects you can still get value out of it.  Also you could Brainstorm and then cast Impulse if you wanted to get some cards out of your hand although obviously you wouldn't be digging as deep with Impulse.  

I agree that Tezzeret is the way to go for this deck and my friend tried a list with Chalice and Chalice @ 1 was destroying TPS and Remora/Bob control.  I'd also play Augury Adept since its puts your opponent on a clock and the life gained can be relevant.  Also are two Tinker targets necessary?

[AngryPheldagrif]

Look at the 1st and 2nd place lists here (scroll down halfway on the page)

That's the last time Mono U really went anywhere and that was me not even running the Chalices main. Still never wanted Brainstorm or Mystical Tutor. Neither did Tommy. The key with Mystical Tutor, and Brainstorm by extension, is that the second you cut Tinker (which you should, it's an incredibly inefficient win condition in Mono-U, vulnerable to bounce and being countered in a deck w/o Yawgmoth's Will, can be Duressed, etc.) you lose any flexibility in Mystical. Cutting it isn't just logical at that point, it's a necessity. Brainstorm also drops significantly, because really, what are you digging for? The whole deck is redundancy through and through. That's why it's strong - it's consistent.

Sorry for sounding as if I was yealling, but it was more a gut reaction to your post, it was just so surpirsing. Now on to my justification, first Mystical Tutor. You say it only useful for only really finding A-Call, well that not the case. Mystical can find TimeWalk, A-Call, your singleton Bounce Magic, and a counter if one is needed. Oh yeah, it gets Tinker too. Now for Brainstorm; well really if you don't see how good this card is now, then I don't think it's possible for me to convince you otherwise. Your arguments for these two cards are sound in a aggro deck and even then both cards would be aventagous to have even in that deck aswell.

So to summarize your argument a little more eloquently, Mystical is good because it finds cards you shouldn't be playing, Time Walk (which makes absolutely zero strategic sense), or Recall (which I just explained as a mediocre and narrow play), or counters, which gee, you already play over 3 full playsets of and become a lot worse at an extra -1 card advantage.

Oh, and Brainstorm is good because it's a good card and even in aggro decks should be played and clearly despite the fact that I'm one of such a few number of people qualified to talk about the deck that I'm called out by name even after being gone for 6 months, I still have no idea what I'm talking about and you're not even going to bother validating your argument.

I'm having a hard time telling whether you're trolling or seriously that naive about how Vintage works. If you're not going to give me a serious answer or counterargument, I'm done with this thread. Sorry, UFactor.

[Ufactor]

The reasons for utilizing both Mystical Tutor and Brainstorm are largely related to Tinker.  If there was a version that either de-emphasized this card or cutting it altogether, then Mystical and Brainstorm can also be left out.

@Pheldie - If your assertions for MUC are to just add Tezzeret pieces, then why play it?  What I mean is that there seems to be few advantages to running mono-blue Tez over the 2-5 color versions, like everyone else.

P.S. LOL, your life-coaching comments were hilarious.  Thanks, but I have a neat goatee, I work out 3-4 times a week, and I'm bald as a stone.

[AngryPheldagrif]

@Pheldie - If your assertions for MUC are to just add Tezzeret pieces, then why play it?  What I mean is that there seems to be few advantages to running mono-blue Tez over the 2-5 color versions, like everyone else.

Tezz is just a win condition. I don't even bother running Voltaic Key in my builds. Tezz, unlike Tinker, pitches to Force (w/o penalty), can be used as an aggressive win strategy off Drain (3 Tezzes > 1 Tinker), and being redundant gives you a huge boon of protection from Duress and REB.

[Tha Gunslinga]

@Pheldie - If your assertions for MUC are to just add Tezzeret pieces, then why play it?  What I mean is that there seems to be few advantages to running mono-blue Tez over the 2-5 color versions, like everyone else.

Other than the bulletproof manabase?  I see that as a HUGE advantage.

[vassago]

I have a few suggestions for a mono blue tezz structure:

            Repeal: This card is absurd. Probably as a two of though.

            Inkwell Leviathan: That is if you are running tinker, but possibly considerable because you might actually be able to hard cast it off some drain mana blah blah blah

            Trinket Mage x1 or 2:  Top is amazing, and so is Tormod's Crypt, but this specific card is more of a flavor call I guess. 

           
Now that I have listed some cards that I would consider if I were playing this, I would make another suggestion that drifts away from mono blue: Skeletal Scrying as like a one of, and of course Yawgmoth's Will.  What do you think?

[Ufactor]

Currently, I'm still in the process of testing individual matches.  This is going to be a slow process due to a lack of testing partners, particularly those that are competent with Tez variants.  In the meantime, I'd like to bring up that..

*cough*

I would like to, in particular, hear opinions from Kowal, Dan Carp, TK, Soly, and the grand daddy of MUC, Smmenen.

*cough*









P.S. Thanks, Dan!!

[M.Solymossy]

I didn't know until Ben Carp pointed it out to me that I was requested to post in this thread.  Here it goes.
--------------------------------------------------------

The first thing I'd like to point out is that Dan is 100% Correct.  In a deck that's monoblue, every draw matters.  Without shuffle effects (Fetchlands alone don't count) you're not doing any favors with Brainstorm.  Or as G.I. Jew (Dan Carp) said...

Rearanging lawn ornaments

.

I agree with dan on this comment. I'd actually rather run Ponder, because it can find you your counters and ophidians, and shuffle if your cards are bad.  But even that seems very loose.

The second point I will bring up is Tinker.I think unless in a Monoblue deck, because you're going to be rifling through your deck with Ophidian triggers, and drawing your robots is awful.  As Dan mentioned, Tinker also gets duressed out of your hand and then you're stuck.  Playing a 3of other win condition is probably a correct call.  

Null Rods actually don't scare me as much as Chalice does when I'm piloting either GWSx or 1 of my like 6? Tezzeret builds I've played.  My new tezzeret build is actually custom-built to function well under Null Rods and Spheres (You'll see if I do well at the ICBM Open).   I have a feeling that if you play against the Enchanted Fishes, you won't be happy either, as your counters fill their hand.  Chalice can be set at 0 or 1 against those decks, which cuts off their ability to effectively pay for the Fish, or play it at all.   On top of that, you can still use your moxes to cast Negates, and hardcast force of will in the late game which is hugely relivent when playing Mono-Blue.   Playing extra ophidians on turn 3 or 4, or even later, while keeping Drain or another counterspell is also huge.  

My Null Rod v. Chalice argument leads perfectly into my next topic.  Win Condition.   Playing Chalices plays better with your own Tezzerets, which is what I would recomend playing.  3of Win Condition is insane.  You could even play 2 Tezzerets and 1 Meloku if you were especially afraid of things like Duress+Extirpate or Pithing Needle or such.  

Repeal is not a very strong card in a deck like this, because it forces you to completely tap out to bounce anything big.  I would play something that deals with big artifacts as well as small men, so I would probably run Rushing River.  Vassago is definitely a European... they love that card!  

Ben is correct that the manabase of any deck like this is just bulletproof.  I love that aspect of this deck.  I would still run a random Strip Mine, but I wouldn't bother with what Shaun mentioned (A crucible or wastelands).  

I can't post more on what Jeff (Gekoratel) posted, because I agree wth everyting.  

 I have to adress The_Lord_Shaper and ask if you understand the logistics of Mono-Blue in the Vintage format?
This isn't meant as a flame, but I don't believe you understand the role of Brainstorm and Mystical Tutor in Vintage decks.  Obviously the things you can do with them are insane, but it's not nearly as good when your deck doesn't run the Junkyard Dawg (Yawgmoth's Will).


And since I am overboard with pictures in posts now..

"Now you know!"

[Implacable]

If you took everything Carp said and made it into a list, that's what I'm running right now.  Comments so far:

1. Chalice @ 1 is the nuts.  Against everything from Goblins to Landstill, it's wonderful. 

2.  Keg is good but too slow.  Is there anything faster?

3.  How do you feel about Augury Adept v. Ophidian?  I like the latter, but life would be nice.

[M.Solymossy]

3.  How do you feel about Augury Adept v. Ophidian?  I like the latter, but life would be nice.

Phid is just easier to cast at all times.

[Ufactor]

4 chalice of the void
4 force of will
4 impulse
4 mana drain
4 mana leak
2 negate
4 ophidian
2 powder keg
2 rushing river (or whatever)
3 tezzeret, the abortion

ancestral recall
time vault
time walk

24 mana
SB: 4 energy flux
SB: 4 sower of temptation
SB: 4 crypt/relic
SB: 1 tinker
SB: 1 sundering titan
SB: 1 hundroog

Perhaps it was foolish of me to do so, but I expected to hear some other than, "Play Tez, or go home!".  It seems like that is what the culmination of the responses amounts to.

EDIT: Spelling

[islanderboi10]

The reason they are suggesting Tezzeret is because it is the best win condition blue has to offer right now.  And running three of them makes it much easier to deal with cards like duress and thoughtsieze, as mentioned above.

If you are having trouble accepting the fact that Tezz is that good, then the win conditions I would suggest you try would be 2-3 Glen Elendra Archmage and 1 Meloku.  Meloku is a great win condition, and the Archmages are two counters each.

But in the end, I would suggest testing their ideas instead of arguing against them.  It really is the best way to try and understand what Dan Carp, Soly, and Mac (Implacable) are trying to tell you.

Also, I like Powder Keg because it deals with a lot of random threats now-a-days.  Many decks run a fair amount of basics to make B2B seem not as strong, though I admit to not having much experience with the card.  I can see it being amazing in a field full of Stax, though.

That's my two cents.

[Ufactor]

The reason they are suggesting Tezzeret is because it is the best win condition blue has to offer right now.  And running three of them makes it much easier to deal with cards like duress and thoughtsieze, as mentioned above.

If you are having trouble accepting the fact that Tezz is that good, then the win conditions I would suggest you try would be 2-3 Glen Elendra Archmage and 1 Meloku.  Meloku is a great win condition, and the Archmages are two counters each.

But in the end, I would suggest testing their ideas instead of arguing against them.  It really is the best way to try and understand what Dan Carp, Soly, and Mac (Implacable) are trying to tell you.

It's not that I don't understand any of the advice on this tread, nor am I crying "sour grapes".  Merely, that I was looking for an extrapolation of other ideas, which I didn't get.

Mono-blue Tez is not a new idea - largely, that is the first deck that most people applied Tezzeret to when it was first printed.  Secondly, in addition to being old news, Mono-blue Tez is not such an involved concept that it requires a think tank of prominent players to address.  Third, if I were to pilot Tezzeret.dec, it would be a U/b/x version, for the reason that Dark Confidant makes Ophidian seem obsolete, and rock solid manabase<<<Yawgmoth's "Booze & Pills" Will.

The point of the thread, which was fabulously overlooked, was to explore applications of Mana Drain in an updated non-Tez deck, and/or the application of Mana Drain in a previously untested combination of control interactions (i.e., with Null Rod).

If I was naive to suppose that such applications exist, then so be it.  I wish, however that someone would have just pointed that naivety out, instead of over-asserting why Tez is obviously good.

[M.Solymossy]

It's not as much as us clarifying why Tezzeret is so good, as us telling you there is no reason at all not to run Time Vault combo in your blue deck.  There is no other win condition worth playing at this point, because Time Vault is just THAT good.

It's like bringing a Knife to a shootout. Wouldn't you rather bring.......

[Ufactor]

It's like bringing a Knife to a shootout. Wouldn't you rather bring.......

Unless, the shootout is in a jungle, then I'd want a blowgun, and moar ninjitsu.  WHERE ARE the ninjorz? WTF?!?!

[vassago]

So what your saying Mike is that we shoulod all main deck at least one Chuck Norris?  I thought that was side board tech, but now that you suggest it, I think it's time for the metagame to shift towards it.       

[MUCGuy]

I'd like to hear some opinions on why 4 Phid is better than 3 Phid & 1 Cruicible please.

This is where I've come after a few days of intensive testing:
// Lands
    1 Strip Mine
    1 Library of Alexandria
    1 Tolarian Academy
    4 Wasteland
    2 Polluted Delta
    9 Island
// Creatures
    2 Tezzeret the Seeker
    3 Ophidian
// Spells
    4 Mana Drain
    4 Force of Will
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Fact or Fiction
    4 Mana Leak
    1 Time Walk
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Trinisphere
    4 Impulse
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Jet
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Time Vault
    4 Chalice of the Void
    2 Vedalken Shackles
    2 Echoing Truth
    1 Crucible of Worlds (latest addition, exchanged for 4th ophidian)
// Sideboard
SB: 4 Energy Flux
SB: 4 Propaganda
SB: 3 Sower of Temptation
SB: 4 Trickbind

Trinisphere prevents low-mana-cost ambushes and puts stress on nonworkshop mana bases, anybody else like this card in here as much as I do?

Crucible Pros
-Easy to play
-Brings back LoA/Tolarian Academy
-Waste/strip recursion
-Polluted Delta recursion

From those points it plays very well with Trinisphere and Vedalken Shackles.

Echoing Truth is GREAT against Empty the Warrens and Bridge From Below. Main decked bounce in this deck seems essential. It gave me such a relief to replace Negates with Echoing Truths.

I'll be happy to answer any questions.