Jund Master Mage

[Lil Lobos]

Last two cards came out a bit off as some of the members here have pointed out. These master mages of mine are powerful in three colored decks and can be summoned through a number of ways. That's probably why some have said they have a complicated mana cost. Each one of these creature spells can be played in many forms. Here's Jund's Master Mage and I will explain the main points of these cards better.

Edited once more:

Jund Master Mage, Varrock
 
Legendary Creature -- Human Shaman
  : Deal 3 damage to target creature and player.
  : Put into play two 1/1 Saproling tokens.
3/4

Jund Master Mage, Varrock
 
Legendary Creature -- Human Shaman
Creature spells you play have Devour 1.
Whenever a non-token permanent you control is sacrificed, you may place X 1/1 green Saproling tokens onto the battlefield, where X is that permanent's converted mana cost.
3/4

[Harlequin]

I want to second the notion that these cards have way too much going on.  
1) If they are truely "Mages" then why are they 5/5's?  The only 5/5 'mage' out there is Dragon Mage and he's a fricken dragon! Looking at legendary wizards there are notably few who are bigger than 4/4.  Most of them are like  Arcanis the Omniponent -> 3/4. Tefferi -> 3/4. Ith -> 3/5. Lim-Dul -> 4/4.    

2) Alternate Casting Cost.  This ACC just seems too random.  Its 'interesting' in flavor, but very weak in terms of actual play.  (not to mention the text is templated horribly).

3) Abilites are Uninteresting, and cluttering up the card.  It seems like the card ist trying to do too much.


So it seems like the concept here is that you've got this one entity that you want to be A) a monster beater, and B) Have an ability (or abilites) that encapsulates the concept of "Jund" that sorta brings together Black, Red, and Green.

Jund Eidolon {B/R} {G/R}
Legendary Creature - Elemental
You may Exile a creature while casting this spell to reduce its cost by for each color it shares with Jund Eidolon.
{B/R} , Tap an untapped creature you control: Deal 3 damage to target creature.  If it was an artifact creature deal 9 damage instead.
{G/R} , Sacrifice a creature:  Other creatures you control gain +2/+2, Trample and Haste until end of turn.  Jund Eidolon cannot attack or block this turn. This ability cannot be used during combat.
"Greed, Lust, Desire... Drink deep the sins of this life for your blood belongs to me now"
5/5

[Lil Lobos]

This is the kind of comments I need to receive in order to improve the cards! THANK YOU!!
--

Back to the card.
The reason I madde these mages 5/5s is because I was following up upon the Malestrom effect. In the story, Nicol Bolas is developing the storm in order gain his deadly powers and knowledge once more. But who is to say that he is the only one who could use that energy? That's where these mages come into play. Originally each one of these "ex-Battle" mages was trained by at least 1 plainswalker or has learned by watching them and then got the power boost from the storm. That's where the power comes from.

Second, the effects. If one were to get to close to the storm, they would be wiped out (Malestrom Pulce) and if you aren't close enough the mages might not be able to get decent power from the storm. But some mages were close enough to use the power from the storm and bonded that power with the mana produced by their plane (Hybrid costs). Each one of them reflect upon their plane's abilities. Since these abilities are permanent it would be good to make the cost for the effect at least 4 mana, sort of like an enchantment but without the enchantment card.

The abilities, although they seem uninterresting, can be quite useful and replace a few cards and enchantments. This creature is meant to do to much.

Lastly the alternative cost: They used to be Battlemages, so this is a form of "Champion" except instead of removing the creture from play, you return it to your deck and it does not come into play when the Master Mage is removed from play.
--

Still, I editted it into your format (card format).

+ pointers for flavor. It goes better than the original card.

However, I'll make two versions of the card. Tell me which one seems better.

[Harlequin]

Lets just talk about the ACC for a second.  I think you're letting the concept of your flavor get in the way of making a card.  First of all, if the idea is that this is some sort of training.  You also can't really explain how you can cast this guy without having someone to train.  I don't like how he costs a ton, then has an ACC to make him cheaper.  Maybe make it an enchantment version of otherworld journey.  Where it removes the creature and returns them with additional power.  Also I think you should ditch the narrow idea of requireing one spesific card for the ACC.  I think the ACC I proposed is a much more interesting, and eligant way to accomplish a similar idea.  You have an expensive dude that represents the ideals of Jund.  And you can ease his casting by consuming a creature who represents those ideals.  The closer the creature is to those ideals, the easier the Eidolon is to cast.


Asside from that I think the power level of the abilites is too high an unintersting, and frankly don't really seem to be that Jundy.  The first ability is essentially
X: deal X damage divided any way you choose (in increments of 4).  I don't really see why the other abilites are even nessiary, when you can just sit back for 2-3 turns and do 4-8 points to the dome ever turn while having monsterous blockers.  The second abilites (despite being completely outclassed by the first ability) gives a single creatures a big permenant pump and trample at no physical cost.  I would think that Jund with devower would be all about sacrificing dudes for the greater good.   Even something like "Target creature spell gains Devouer 3" would be bettter than just giving an injection of raw awsome sauce. 

[Anusien]

The ACC isn't strategically interesting.  It's useless except when it randomly blows somebody out because they got really lucky.

Why don't you just do one, and we'll work on that one, and that'll give you the mold for all the others.  Having 5 threads open for 1 cycle is confusing.

[Anusien]

To wit, Jund's set mechanic is Devour, with a strong overlap on Unearth.  The Jund Battlemage creates a token, and loses life.  If this guy is supposed to be an upgraded Jund Battlemage, why not riff on those?  What about

Jund Master Battlemage - 1BRRG
Creature - Human Shaman
BR, T: Target player loses 2 life and you gain 2 life
RG, T: Put three 1/1 green Saproling tokens into play.
3/3

[Lil Lobos]

That actually seems better, and since jund really does go along with the devour, and token summoning ability it does seem a bit more stable if I make this guy that way. I'll bump this guys power and toughness down too....

IDEA!

edited,

what about this?

This'll cover up for the tokens, will give creatures a boost of power and reflects some of the Jund concepts. Flavor text is removed because, I don't know, could use upgrade.

[Anusien]

Those two abilities don't work together the way you think they would, and they'd cause confusion.  What if you made every nontoken creature put into the graveyard from play make a 1/1 Green Saproling token?

[Harlequin]

The combination of those two abilites is undeniably too good.

Grizzly bear = 6/6 ?
Hill Giant = 11/11 ?!
Craw Wurm = 18/16 ?!?

[Anusien]

Those two abilities don't work together the way you think they would, and they'd cause confusion.

Devour is a static ability that generates a replacement effect that modifies the way creatures come into play.  The other ability is a triggered ability that only triggers when the creature comes into play.  You can't devour the tokens that the thing creates, since it doesn't trigger until after it has devoured.  That said, the ability needs to change so people don't think you can.  My ability is interesting but it has the awkward issue of not being able to devour the token created when you devour something else.  So what about Grave Pact?

[Lil Lobos]

Edited. Made Devour to Devour 1 instead of 2 and the Saprolings can only be summoned when a permanent is removed from play. This'll make it a little harder, given that the saproling's can't attack either.

[Anusien]

Why can't the Saprolings attack?

[Lil Lobos]

Is it good if the saprolings are able to attack? Or will it be a bit overpowered?

[Anusien]

I can't think of any tokens with Defender.  If you're giving people creature tokens, let them attack (and balance the card another way).  Otherwise, you should just make creatures with Devour get extra counters on them.

[Lil Lobos]

I'll just make the saprolings...well given the cost to play this mage...make them 2/2 and allow them to attack.

[andrewpate]

I can't think of any tokens with Defender.  If you're giving people creature tokens, let them attack (and balance the card another way).  Otherwise, you should just make creatures with Devour get extra counters on them.

Thunderheads.  That said, I agree with your point nonetheless.

[Anusien]

And Tidal Wave and Waylay.  But you see what I mean.

Saprolings are only 1/1s.  If they're 2/2s, they're Bears.  That said, Saprolings are a big subtheme in Alara.

[Lil Lobos]

Okay, so the saprolings HAVE to be 1/1s and Devour is one of the main effects in Jund. Basically make big creatures by eating little creatures.

Another effect of jund is obviously the damage...so do I leave that effect out or do I make 3 mini effects...let me make a little list of effects that this card (right now since I'm just making this up as I go) might be able to have:

1.) : Deal X damage to target creature or player.
2.) : Put X 1/1 saproling tokens into play.
3.) : Destroy target creature or artifact.
4.) Creatures spells you play have Devour (what number?)
5.) : Target creature you control gets +2/+2 and has Trample until end of turn.
....
That's all I got for now, any other effects that might work for this card to make it interesting and useful?

[Harlequin]

1.) : Deal X damage to target creature or player.

This ability is just way too strong.  You don't need to put any other abilites on the dude because this will be the only "right" ability to use in basically any situation.  Something like:
" : Deal 1 damage to target creature or player. "
Is probably the fairest non-tapping creature/player ability.  

Another interesting idea could be:
" : Deal 2 damage to target creature, that creature's controler takes 1 damage"

The way the rules work is that even if you had infinite mana, if your opponent  only had one 2/2 the most damage you could deal would be 1 to that player.  (because the ability only has 1 target, and its the creature.  So if the creature dies the other activations are countered without legal target)

[Lil Lobos]

Good point. I guess the devour and summoning abilities are good enough for this guy. So he's pretty much a keeper at this point, isn't he?

[Anusien]

I don't like that combination of abilities because it will lead people to think you can devour a Grizzly Bear, get Saprolings, and devour the Saprolings all to the same creature.

[Darkenslight]

I'd change the second ability to 'Whenever a permanent you control is sacrificed, you may x 1/1 green Saproling tokens onto the battlefield, where X is that permanent's converted mana cost'.

Then, I'd invert the abilities so that the Devour was after the permanents ability (see, for reference Swooping Talon from Legions, which has Flying, then provoke, then loses flying.)

[Anusien]

I really don't think it's a good idea to have those abilities on the same card since they don't work together.

[Lil Lobos]

I'd change the second ability to 'Whenever a permanent you control is sacrificed, you may x 1/1 green Saproling tokens onto the battlefield, where X is that permanent's converted mana cost'.

Then, I'd invert the abilities so that the Devour was after the permanents ability (see, for reference Swooping Talon from Legions, which has Flying, then provoke, then loses flying.)

I understand part of what you've said (italics) but the second part, not so much.

Many of you are saying that these effects don't work together which is confusing since they do work together...maybe just a little to well. If that's the case then I understand the situation, if they just don't work then I might be missing something.
If these effects don't work together, then would a summon and damage ability (exactly as Jund Battlemage's abilities) work? Let me put up a replica of the card one more time, but with those effects, just with a little more impact.

[Anusien]

I control this creature and a Grizzly Bears.  I cast a Hill Giant.  It resolves, and Devour applies.  I devour the Grizzly Bears.  My Hill Giant enters the battlefield with 1 +1/+1 counter on it from Devour 1.  Then this creature's "Whenever a permanent you control is sacrificed, you may place X 1/1 green Saproling tokens onto the battlefield, where X is that permanent's converted mana cost." trigger goes on the stack, and when it resolves I put 2 1/1 green Saproling tokens onto the battlefield.  Then if I cast a Grey Ogre, I can devour those tokens as well as the Hill Giant.  But I can't play a creature, sacrifice another creature AND the tokens created by its Leaves the Battlefield ability.

Nitpick: If you want to keep that ability, it needs to be nontoken permanent, or even better, nontoken creature.

[Lil Lobos]

That I understand.

Edited