What happens when the werewolf eats the silver bullets?

Frappie

Basic User

Posts: 123

What happens when the werewolf eats the silver bullets?

« on: July 20, 2009, 10:39:38 pm »

As I am somewhat of an outsider still to the Type 1 scene and only recently come back in I may still have an outsiders perspective. That is the only apology I will give for this thread.

The metagame as we have seen it has been shifting at this very moment towards decks that run collections of wins, but how many wins are these decks truly running? What follows are deck lists directly from the Vintage Encyclopedia with their win conditions emboldened.

Quote

Composite Tezzeret Control
Stephen Menendian

LANDS (16):
2 Island
1 Snow-covered Island
3 Flooded Strand
1 Library Of Alexandria
3 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tolarian Academy

CREATURES (1):
1 Darksteel Colossus

OTHER SPELLS (43):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Echoing Truth
1 Fact Or Fiction
4 Force Of Will
1 Gifts Ungiven
4 Mana Drain
1 Misdirection
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Thirst For Knowledge
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Tezzeret The Seeker
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Duress
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ponder
1 Thoughtseize
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will

SIDEBOARD(15):
1 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ingot Chewer
2 Yixlid Jailer
2 Extirpate
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Pyroblast
1 Rack And Ruin
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Duress
1 Pyroclasm

Quote

The Perfect Storm by Marius van Zundert

Lands:
3 Underground Sea
2 Swamp
3 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Island
1 Tolarian Academy

Creatures:
1 Darksteel Colossus

Instant:
4 Force of Will
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Misdirection
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Brainstorm

Sorcery:
4 Duress
2 Grim Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Minds Desire
1 Ponder
1 Time Walk
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Enchantment:
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Necropotence

Artifact:
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Memory Jar
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal

Sideboard:
2 Yixlid Jailer
2 Phyrexian Negator
2 Shriekmaw
2 Slaughter pact
2 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Hymm to Tourach
1 Rebuild

Quote

Double Dragon Oath: by Matt Elias

4 Force of Will
4 Oath of Druids
4 Impulse
3 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
2 Lim-Dul’s Vault
2 Hellkite Overlord
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Negate
1 Misdirection
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Regrowth
1 Lat-Nam’s Legacy
1 Scroll Rack
1 Gaea’s Blessing
1 Wipe Away
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Island
4 Forbidden Orchard
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island

So after looking at the actual threats, things that kill/deck, we can see that each of these following decks is reliant on a silver bullet like approach. Utilizing most of their deck for resources to build up to the win or to secure board position. Whether that being counters or discard or mana denial they all work in some form to prevent the enemy from utilizing their own spells (duh). Where does this leave us? We see that the board develops beyond our control by the opponents denial effects and that is troublesome. But all of these decks rely on their win conditions for the actual win. If the tinker is stifled the opponent won't lose automatically, it just becomes harder for them. So out of this mess of an article I come with a suggestion. It's a bad card against decks with multiple win conditions, IE stax, goblins, and the like. But what it makes up for that is the readily availability of its ease in casting.

Extract {U}

Sorcery
Search target player's library for a card and exile it. Then that player shuffles his or her library.

Pros: Blue, Eats silver bullets, always finds something good to get rid of, equal in Theoretical CA, cheap, decent sideboard alternative, lack of wishes in current meta raises effectiveness.

Cons: Misdirectible, will not affect hand position, loses ground in techinical CA.

I hope this will help in someones build of fish for the metagame.


	Logged

Frappie's Hitlist
Ric Flair: DoA, $3

Tha Gunslinga

Full Members
Basic User

Posts: 1583

De-Errata Mystical Tutor!

Re: What happens when the werewolf eats the silver bullets?

« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2009, 10:58:22 pm »

The problem with Extract is that it's good (theoretically, at least) against decks that Fish already beats, and useless against deck that Fish has trouble with, like Stax and aggro.


	Logged

Don't tolerate splittin'

xouman

Basic User

Posts: 1082

Re: What happens when the werewolf eats the silver bullets?

« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2009, 04:07:08 am »

There is a card named Earwig squad, which takes out 3 cards instead of one. It can be played for {2}

if you damaged an opponent with a rogue (or goblin) that turn. I played a rogues deck with very little success, but I was full unpowered :p Here you are the "best" rogues I could find:

-Rootwater thief
-Cold-eyed selkie
-Bitterblossom
-Sygg, river cutthroat
-Oona's prowler
-oona's blackguard
-riptide pilferer
-looter il-kor
-mutavault

there are others, but these were my main choices.

The problem is that lots of drain decks could win even without 3 top cards (they may have drawn them, already in play...).


	Logged

LennoxLewis86

Full Members
Basic User

Posts: 133

Re: What happens when the werewolf eats the silver bullets?

« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2009, 06:11:19 am »

Hide/Seek is the card you are looking for when it comes to silver bullet removal. Hide/Seek is the ultimate card to battle DSC, you can get rid of it when it's in play or in response to a Tinker (and gain 11 life while you're at it)
It's better in the traditional ''hate'' colors than extract. This card is quite useful when you're trying to build a hate deck. I'd throw in a couple of Chalices, Null Rods and creatures that disrupt like Mindcensor but I'd also play Confidants to keep the flow of cards going. I've seen a deck similar to this and it looked like a ton of fun to play.
It was supposed to beat TOP tier but unfortunately rolled over and died to tier 2 decks as well as random or aggrodecks.


	Logged

Lurker101

Basic User

Posts: 547

Re: What happens when the werewolf eats the silver bullets?

« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2009, 01:59:40 pm »

Bitter Ordeal can be quite good at removing win conditions (tinker/robot, bridge from below,oath targets, tendrils, time vault, tezzeret) and it's actually pretty easy to get a high gravestorm count and do it fast.
Here's a sample list:
//Lands:16
2 Wasteland (disrupts + builds grave storm)
1 Strip Mine (see above)
4 Polluted Delta (builds gravestorm)
3 Bayou
1 Riftstone Portal
2 Badlands
1 Swamp
2 Bloodstained Mire (builds gravestorm)

//Creatures:6
3 Salvage Titan (builds gravestorm of 3 & beats face)
3 Greater Gargadon (can build massive gravestorm and beat massive face)

//Other Spells:
4 Bitter Ordeal
4 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Smallpox (Builds gravestorm & gets rid of oath creatures or tinker targets already on the table)
1 mox jet
1 Black Lotus (builds gravestorm)
1 Lotus Petal (builds gravestorm)
1 Mox Emerald
1 Fastbond
2 Crop Rotation (builds gravestorm and fetched waste/strip to build more gravestorm)
4 Chromatic Star (builds gravestorm and draws cards it also works great with Salvage Titan)
1 Balance (can build huge gravestorm and save you from decks like fish)
4 Duress
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Seal of Primordium (builds gravestorm and disrupts)
1 Mox Ruby
1 Necropotence
4 Night's Whisper

Sideboard:
2 smallpox
2 Pernicious Deed (builds massive gravestorm vs. fish or ichorid and eliminates threats on the table)
2 Tormod's Crypt (for ichorid also builds gravestorm)
2 Bitterblossom (can't remember what these were for)
2 Relic of Progenitus (builds gravestorm, kills ichorid, beats chalice @ 0)
2 Slaughter Pact (kills goyfs and such and also builds gravestorm)
3 Chalice of the Void


	Logged

RecklessEmbermage

Basic User

Posts: 279

Re: What happens when the werewolf eats the silver bullets?

« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2009, 04:30:40 pm »

Quote from: Lurker101 on July 21, 2009, 01:59:40 pm

I like bitter ordeal here, but branching into so many colors makes you vulnerable to wastelands while it becomes harder to include a set yourself. The whole salvage titan package also looks very weak. I'd rather try to build ordeal into a monoblack og Bg Pox or Sui deck.

Note on Earwig Squad: He is a beast himself (I play 4 in a BR goblins list), but lacks strong 1cc enablers. Outside of a dedicated goblin deck, there's only mogg fanatic, goblin welder and possibly goblin vandal that can be included on their own merits. The moment they print a rogue or goblin for B with real utility, he'll become good, though.


	Logged

Pages: [1]