Vintage Championships Top 8 LIVE!

[chief]

However, after the outcome of today I'm not sure if I will ever put lotus in. I know it sounds crazy and/or "awful" but think of it like this. Turn one if you are playing countrol and i play shops lotus, what happens? Lotus gets countered. If i go shops, petal what happens? They let the petal go and then it's over. I bait with welder (they counter) and I drop lock piece. From there on in I just ride the wave controlling their lands and tapping them down with tangle wire.

Is this a serious example?  I mean, he's saying that with petal you play petal, play welder, they counter so you resolve your threat.  You lost petal and welder to resolve your threat.  With lotus there, you lose your lotus then resolve your threat.  How is losing a second card for no reason better here?  There may be times where petal is better than lotus, but this doesn't seem like one of them to me.

[dawnstrider85]

dont feel to bad colin just know he took home something that fell on the floor and probably has some scratches in it ... plus he did have around 7 counter spells towards the end.

[Mr.Coke]

I'd really see the "Steel City Vault" decklist, maybe someone could post it please ?

[DubDub]

It was really great to be able to watch the top 8 (or at least three of the matches).  Vintage Magic really is an extremely watchable game.  Congrats to all the competitors, I really wish I had been there.

Instead I'm done paying off my student loans, guess I can't complain.  See you at the Vintage Championships next year!

[Juggernaut GO]

curious as to how many players were in the tournament, any info there?

[2nd_lawl]

curious as to how many players were in the tournament, any info there?

7 rounds so at least 64

[DubDub]

The coverage said both 110 and 111 players at times.

[LotusHead]

I'd really see the "Steel City Vault" decklist, maybe someone could post it please ?

The announcers read DeMars' list during the webcast so here goes...

Steel City Vault

1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor

2 Ancient Grudge
2 Goblin Welder
1 Wheel of FOrtune

1 Regrowth

4 Force of Will
1 Transmute Artifact
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Windfall
1 Inkwell Leviathon
1 Merchant Scroll
2 Impulse
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fire/Ice
1 Misdirection
1 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Time Twister
1 Rebuild
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ponder

1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
2 Voltaic Key
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Time Vault
1 City of Brass
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand.

[DubDub]

Did you copy that down?  They went too fast for me.  All I heard was Windfall and Transmute Artifact.   

Such a cool list, I'm goldfishing it now.

[korgano]

lotus petal versus lotus...pure innovation

[FadeToBlack]

lotus petal versus lotus...pure innovation

Don't mock the future of Vintage Mack 

[pierce]

Don't overdo the no lotus workshop deck. He beat me in his bubble round when we were both 4-0. He won g2 off turn one trinisphere (nice deck), and g3 I mulled to 6 and kept a suspect hand on the play, with FOW, ponder, vampiric tutor, strip mine, 2 U dorks. Better than a five card hand, and by the way he said 'keep' I knew I needed a FOW. He tried another t1 3ball, I FOW, I draw wasteland, I rip up two lands, we play draw go for five turns. He drew better.
I didn't see the t8 round, but he threw away g3 of the t4. The only spell he played was a goblin welder. How do you justify keeping that hand?

I then lost to Brain Demars when we were both 4-1. His deck is insane. I had no chance there.

In the battle of rods vs key/vault, there is a clear winner. The field had way more null rod decks than vault key decks, but look at the t8, and specifically the t4.

Gratz the the t8, and to our new champion.

[ashiXIII]

Don't overdo the no lotus workshop deck. He beat me in his bubble round when we were both 4-0. He won g2 off turn one trinisphere (nice deck), and g3 I mulled to 6 and kept a suspect hand on the play, with FOW, ponder, vampiric tutor, strip mine, 2 U dorks. Better than a five card hand, and by the way he said 'keep' I knew I needed a FOW. He tried another t1 3ball, I FOW, I draw wasteland, I rip up two lands, we play draw go for five turns. He drew better.
I didn't see the t8 round, but he threw away g3 of the t4. The only spell he played was a goblin welder. How do you justify keeping that hand?

I then lost to Brain Demars when we were both 4-1. His deck is insane. I had no chance there.

In the battle of rods vs key/vault, there is a clear winner. The field had way more null rod decks than vault key decks, but look at the t8, and specifically the t4.

Gratz the the t8, and to our new champion.

the broken deck has always been, and will always be, better than the deck that attempts to answer it

[marriedwithchildren]

As posted on ManaNation.com  the top 8 lists

1st – Itou Hiromichi

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Tinker
1 Time Vault
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Brainstorm
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Inkwell Leviathan
4 Dark Confidant
1 Fire // Ice
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
1 Magus of the Unseen
1 Misdirection
1 Voltaic Key
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Rack and Ruin
2 Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
2 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Darkblast

Sideboard
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Trinisphere
2 Pyroclasm
1 Rack and Ruin
2 Arcane Laboratory
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Darkblast


 2nd – Colin Wu

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Merchant Scroll
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Pyroblast
1 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Rebuild
2 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warren
1 Platinum Angel
4 Dark Confidant
1 Intuition
1 Darkblast
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
2 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Fire // Ice
2 Duress
1 Helm of Obedience
 
3rd – Brian DeMars

1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Wheel of Fortune
2 Goblin Welder
1 Regrowth
4 Force of Will
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Merchant Scroll
2 Impulse
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fire // Ice
1 Misdirection
1 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Transmute Artifact
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Windfall
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Timetwister
1 Rebuild
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ponder
1 Memory Jar
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
2 Voltaic Key
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Timevault
3 City of Brass
1 Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand

Sideboard
1 Naturalize
2 Ingot Chewer
1 Pyroclasm
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Pithing Needle
2 Yixlid Jailer
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Tormod’s Crypt
3 Leyline of the Void

 4th – Brandon Jones

4 Goblin Welder
4 Tanglewire
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Wasteland
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Lotus Petal
1 Strip mine
1 Memory Jar
1 Karn Silver Golem
1 Sundering Titan
1 Mana Crypt
4 Mishra’s Workshop
1 Vampiric tutor
1 Bazaar of Baghdad
2 Uba Mask
1 Smokestack
1 Trinisphere
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Razormane Masticore
1 Sol Ring
1 Powder Keg
1 Mana Vault
1 Triskellion
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Tinker
1 Crop Rotationv
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 City of Brass

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Powder Keg
1 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Time vault
1 Voltaic Key
 
5th – Devon Ducommun

4 Wasteland
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Polluted Delta
3 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
3 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Bayou
4 Null rod
1 Strip Mine
2 Tombstalker
3 Diabolic Edict
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Time walk
1 Swamp
4 Dimir Cut Purse
1 Demonic Tutor

Sideboard
3 Energy Flux
3 Smother
3 Krosan Grip
2 Extirpate
2 Yixlid Jailer
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Oxidize

 6th – Jesse Speers

1 Ponder
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical tutor
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Mystic Remora
4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
3 Painter’s Servant
2 Grindstone
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
2 Trinket Mage
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring
1 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Lotus Petal
2 Underground Sea

Sideboard
3 Tropical Island
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Ingot Chewer
2 Negate
1 Pithing Needle
 
7th – Mark Trogdon

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Staff of Domination
4 Metalworker
3 Karn, Silver Golem
4 Smokestack
2 Arcbound Ravager
3 Triskelion
1 Trinisphere
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
4 Mishra’s Workshop
4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Stripmine

Sideboard
3 Jester’s Cap
4 Tangle wire
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Gaea’s Blessing
4 Relic of Progenitus
1 Triskelion
1 Sculpting Steel

 8th – John Donovan

3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Heartwood Storyteller
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Choke
4 Aven Mindcensor
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Null Rod
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Savannah
1 Plains
3 Forest
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Stripmine
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Kataki, War’s Wage
3 Elvish Spiritguide
1 Seal of Primordium

Sideboard
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Tormod’s Crypt
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Tariff
2 Choke
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Seal of Primordium
 
http://www.mananation.com/gencon-vintage-championships/

[Fortune]

What does Helm of Obedience come in against?

[urweak]

What does Helm of Obedience come in against?

Its a combo with Leyline of the Void. Although I dont know what match ups its used for.

[CrazyCarl]

However, after the outcome of today I'm not sure if I will ever put lotus in. I know it sounds crazy and/or "awful" but think of it like this. Turn one if you are playing countrol and i play shops lotus, what happens? Lotus gets countered. If i go shops, petal what happens? They let the petal go and then it's over. I bait with welder (they counter) and I drop lock piece. From there on in I just ride the wave controlling their lands and tapping them down with tangle wire.

Black Lotus loses 50% of it's value overnight.  News at 11.

But in all seriousness, I just wanna make sure we're not dealing with a new breed of Psyduck and NaCl: LOTUS PETAL IS NOT A BETTER CARD UNDER ANY NORMAL OR SLIGHTLY ABNORMAL GAME CIRCUMSTANCES EVER, THAN BLACK LOTUS.  However, if you feel that Petal is better than Black Lotus, I'd like to trade you a 1$ bill for your 3 1$ bills.  Afterall, one is better than three, amirite?

[pierce]

Don't overdo the no lotus workshop deck. He beat me in his bubble round when we were both 4-0. He won g2 off turn one trinisphere (nice deck), and g3 I mulled to 6 and kept a suspect hand on the play, with FOW, ponder, vampiric tutor, strip mine, 2 U dorks. Better than a five card hand, and by the way he said 'keep' I knew I needed a FOW. He tried another t1 3ball, I FOW, I draw wasteland, I rip up two lands, we play draw go for five turns. He drew better.
I didn't see the t8 round, but he threw away g3 of the t4. The only spell he played was a goblin welder. How do you justify keeping that hand?

I then lost to Brain Demars when we were both 4-1. His deck is insane. I had no chance there.

In the battle of rods vs key/vault, there is a clear winner. The field had way more null rod decks than vault key decks, but look at the t8, and specifically the t4.

Gratz the the t8, and to our new champion.

the broken deck has always been, and will always be, better than the deck that attempts to answer it

gross oversimpflication. it's a 'red queen principle' effect. it depends on the cycle. in this one, vault key is the clear winner.

my point was that the guy got very lucky vs me, and then was able to double draw from there. As for the lotus thing, no one should possibly consider not proxying one at a proxy event. I mean, if they let you play two of one, either lotus petal or black lotus, which would you choose? 

[whidye]

I watched a few games by Brandon and was amazed.  I'm a newcomer to Vintage (I know general deck structures, but NOT how to play them), and watching him play stax was exciting.  It was a very cool deck to play, and before the tournament started he explained how his deck worked; awesome to get that knowledge (he knew I wasn't playing).

Have to say though, watching from 2 meters away and seeing:

Ancestral
Ancestral, MisD

and

4 Fow, drain, etc... hand

was simply hilarious.  Congratulations to all of the top 8!  Vintage is a very exciting format to watch ;p

[CrazyCarl]

Great job, in all seriousness, but FFS don't tell people that Lotus is not good in Stax while Lotus Petal is, thanks!

[Juggernaut GO]

I cut lotus from stax back in the day when control slaver was huge and having an artifact in your yard was more of a liability due to opposing welders then the acceleration provided.

Not having it in that deck seems like nothing more then a budget issue as he had to borrow the power and shops to play.  In a normal 10 proxy tournament of course lotus would be included, there's no reason in this meta game not to run it.  But I do enjoy the amount of outrage something so stupid has caused, obviously he was being sarcastic in his post....

[Maverrick77]

I'm surprised no one has brought this up yet but...

In the brandon's semis when he wins game one and his opponent tells the judge he didn't unsideboard after the quaters shouldn't the judge had given him another game loss instead of a warning sending brandon to the finals considering it was a 48k event?

I'm not a judge so correct me if I'm wrong.

[T00L]

Obviously only someone as skilled in sarcasm as Travis would see what Brandon did there. lmao

[Vegeta2711]

He tried another t1 3ball, I FOW, I draw wasteland, I rip up two lands, we play draw go for five turns. He drew better.

Yeah, because it's so very hard to draw better than a 0 colored mana hand.

The only spell he played was a goblin welder. How do you justify keeping that hand?

kept this hand on the play, FOW, ponder, vampiric tutor, strip mine, 2 U dorks.

Oh the delicious irony.

[Nastaboi]

In the brandon's semis when he wins game one and his opponent tells the judge he didn't unsideboard after the quaters shouldn't the judge had given him another game loss instead of a warning sending brandon to the finals considering it was a 48k event?

I don't know about how the exact situation went and was resolved, but here is how official documents put it.

2.2. Deck Error — Deck/Decklist Mismatch
Definition
A player is considered to have a mismatch when the contents of their deck do not match their decklist. This includes players who have lost cards from their main deck, have cards from a previous opponent in their decks, have additional cards with their sideboard, have sideboard cards in their main deck at an incorrect time, or whose decks do not otherwise match their decklists. This infraction applies to tournaments for which decklists are being used and includes most errors involving the sideboard.

Penalty

Regular	Competitive	Professional
Warning	Game	Game

The penalty can be downgraded by head judge if infraction (SB cards in) is noticed when drawing an opening hand, otherwise it should be a game.

[ilpeggiore]

Sideboard

1 Trinisphere

this sounds strange !

[Troy_Costisick]

5th – Devon Ducommun

4 Wasteland
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Polluted Delta
3 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
3 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Bayou
4 Null rod
1 Strip Mine
2 Tombstalker
3 Diabolic Edict
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Time walk
1 Swamp
4 Dimir Cut Purse
1 Demonic Tutor

Sideboard
3 Energy Flux
3 Smother
3 Krosan Grip
2 Extirpate
2 Yixlid Jailer
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Oxidize

8th – John Donovan

3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Heartwood Storyteller
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Choke
4 Aven Mindcensor
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Null Rod
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Savannah
1 Plains
3 Forest
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Stripmine
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Kataki, War’s Wage
3 Elvish Spiritguide
1 Seal of Primordium

Sideboard
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Tormod’s Crypt
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Tariff
2 Choke
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Seal of Primordium

Grats to two XG Beatz decks for making the world's top 8!  That's a pretty amazing feat, guys.  You should be quite proud of yourselves.

Peace,

-Troy

[Sporkcore]

Sideboard

1 Trinisphere

this sounds strange !

I've played 1 Trinisphere in a number of boards for the combo match up to slow them down if I can drop it early enough.

[Smmenen]

I'd like to interview Itou.  If anyone knows how to reach him, PM me.

[ilpeggiore]

I've played 1 -one- Trinisphere in a number of boards for the combo match up -1 matchup- to slow them down if -if- I can drop it early enough.

that's why I never would play it (not in this tex-stax-fish-gw meta, anyway).