New Suicide Black: A Shell To Mess With

[Stormanimagus]

Hey all,

So in light of the Gen Con Results I'm starting to see a trend in the Vintage Metagame. Here are the major points to that trend:

1) Vault/Key decks and Tezz are here to stay.
2) Shops are actually starting to pick up in popularity and effectiveness in earnest.
3) Fish Decks and GW beat strategies are solidifying a spot.
4) Ichorid, while tier 2, is played and must be respected.

I've been tinkering around with an idea of a deck to combine a lot of "HOT" cards that would also have synergy and effectiveness against that field.

First off, let me list off my top 5 hot cards that could fit into a suicide Tendrils shell:

1.) Dark Confiant (This guy is so hot you could wrap his poop in tin-foil and sell it on ebay for 1,000 G's)
2.) Duress/Thoughtsieze
3.) Null Rod
4.) Tarmogoyf

So how about a B/g suicide Tendrils strategy that incorporates all these elements together? I give you:

Dark Deal

Land (18):
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
3 Bayou
3 Swamp
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Bazaar Of Baghdad

Artifacts (7):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Lotus Petal
4 Null Rod

Creatures (7):
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf

Instants (10):
4 Dark Ritual
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal

Sorceries (17):
4 Duress
4 Thoughtsieze
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Night’s Whisper
3 Tendrils Of Agony
1 Life From The Loam
1 Yawgmoth’s Will

Enchantments (1):
1 Necropotence

SB
3 Smother
4 Seal Of Primordium
3 Yixlid Jailer
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
1 Extirpate

I would like some thoughts on how to make this deck better. For Instance, would 4 Night's Whisper be a good idea? How could I squeeze in a 4th? Could this deck splash Blue?

I'm curious as to if this deck is actually superior to TPS against the field today or if it would need more tuning in order to be. I'd really like your thoughts on this idea and I'd like some of the best minds in Vintage to weigh in on this because it's been quite some time since a deck with 4 Confidants and 3-4 Tendrils was Viable. I think it could be again but I'd like some pointed feedback.

-Storm

[Vegeta2711]

No. Just no.

FFS, the two halves of your deck don't even work together, there's so much anti-synergy I have to wonder if your trolling. If you are, kudos, ya got me.

[T00L]

No. Just no.

FFS, the two halves of your deck don't even work together, there's so much anti-synergy I have to wonder if your trolling. If you are, kudos, ya got me.

lol @ Veggies post.

Seriously dude 3 Tarmogoyf? Really? Also your deck has a worse identity crisis than me in 9th grade. Does it wanna combo or beat down?

[Prospero]

I think this is what you were looking to do:

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=22845

[ilpeggiore]

tendrills don't help you to avoid a vault-death.

every black combo card is a waste if u are beat downing. every tarmo is a waste if you are going to storm over your oppo.

This deck is not so good vs artifact (0 removals), relies only on 4 card against the vault-combo , and has only 1 way to kill a leviatan.......  bad.

I think you should cut a lot of combo card.
Playing an aggro-deck that can kill you with a toa or that can go for a fast tendrill in some matches could be a viable idea.
playing a combo-deck with some tarmogoyf is really a bad idea.

Imho bitter blossom is a better card vs artifact and aggro. sure it don't win but gives you time to do it.
1x demonic consultation ? with a singleton deck ? bho.

Library ? tooooo slow. land , dark, duress+ cc2.... 3 cards in hand, 5 if you play whispers....

darkblast ? not so good since fish is no more Ur but bug/bant.

1) Vault/Key decks and Tezz are here to stay.
2) Shops are actually starting to pick up in popularity and effectiveness in earnest.
3) Fish Decks and GW beat strategies are solidifying a spot.
4) Ichorid, while tier 2, is played and must be respected

.

good questions . bad answers.

I'm curious as to if this deck is actually superior to TPS against the field today or if it would need more tuning in order to be.

they do shpere/thorn on turn1. TPs can fow. you can't.  if you wanna play something on turn 1, you can only hope to see a lotus on your first 8 cards.

after the second lock-piece ( whatever it is) TPs wait for a chance to play a resolutive hurkyll/rebuilt/repeal. you can't.

your artifact destruction cards are green and you can't fetch a basic forest....

vs aggro, tps can go with the tinker-plan. you can't.

I think this deck could be a viable choise for budget players.

4 Chalice of the Void / Seal of Primordium
4 Null Rod
4 Bitterblossom
4 Dark Confidant
4 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Diabolic Edict
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
1 Necropotence
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
3 Tarmogoyf/ Black creature
2 ESG / 1 Diabolic Edict 1 Withered Wretch
1 Lotus Petal
14 Snow-Covered Swamp/Fetches/Dual
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
 

[zeus-online]

...My first thought was....what is library of alexandria doing in an aggro/combo list?

And after that i decided to look through the entire list and wonder....What is null rod doing in a deck with tendrils?

[Stormanimagus]

No. Just no.

FFS, the two halves of your deck don't even work together, there's so much anti-synergy I have to wonder if your trolling. If you are, kudos, ya got me.

I think it's a little disrespectful to say that. I've helped create a lot of deck Ideas that do work well, including my work and T8 finish with Selkie-Strike at Stratfordbury in March. I'd like your reasons why you think this deck is garbage and not just an unsupported "No".

@everyone. I see your points and I am well experienced with the Forino list from years back. I think it is out-dated. I am also familiar with the Suicide-Black list that Menendian came out with a while ago that ran Bitterblossom. Perhaps that deck has more synergy, but I want to see if a deck CAN effectively run Rituals, Confidants, multiple Tendrils AND Null Rod all in the same deck. I don't think Null Rod really hurts you THAT much as most of your mana comes from Rituals anyway. Perhaps I should cut Goyfs entirely AND cut Rods and make it more of a slow kill Tendrils deck and throw some other good stuff in there like Infernal Contract.

I agree with everyone's criticism that the deck is too unfocused as it stands now. I do, however, think that can be rectified.

-Storm

[overseer1234]

I like the idea, and I've played something similar:

4x    Dark Confidant
3x    Phyrexian Negater
2x    Sensei's divining top
1x    Necropotence   

4x    Chalice of the void
3x    Duress
3x    Cabal Therapy
2x    Thoughtseize


8x    Swamp
4x    Bloodstained Mire
3x    Polluted Delta

4x    Dark Ritual
4x    Cabal ritual
1x    Lotus Petal     
1x    Sol Ring
1x    mana Vault

1x    Demonic tutor
1x    Vampiric tutor
1x    Demonic consultation
1x    Yawgmoth's will   
1x    Imperial Seal
1x    Grim tutor

4x    Tendrils of Agony
1x    Time Vault
1x    Voltaic Key

Can't recall the sideboard, but If you kick the artifact's and replace them with null rod and night's whisper it still works pretty well.

[Vegeta2711]

I think it's a little disrespectful to say that. I've helped create a lot of deck Ideas that do work well, including my work and T8 finish with Selkie-Strike at Stratfordbury in March. I'd like your reasons why you think this deck is garbage and not just an unsupported "No".

That's nice, you've made other decks, it still doesn't change that your posted deck is a steaming pile.

Why list the number of reasons when it's blatantly obvious by just looking at it? Seriously, ask yourself what the deck is supposed to be doing and how it's supposed to consistently accomplish that goal. You should be able to quickly figure it out from there. I'll give you a hint, you already run at least 4-6 cards that don't do anything of relevance.

[median]

I've actually been working on a similar null rod aggro deck, but with a different combo.
Right now all the rage in legacy is natural order. sort of a tinker for green creatures (progenitus).

With goyf, and perhaps thornweald elves, you have a strong beat down engine that can do back up and chump.
The list you posted looks good but i would switch the combo to something more synergetic.
 Also, up it to four goyfs.

[reaperbong]

here's what i'm playing it kicks ass-

4x Bitterblossom
3x Tombstalker
4x Night's Whisper
4x Dark Ritual

4x Thoughtseize
4x Duress
4x Null Rod
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Wasteland
2x Diabolic Edict
1x Strip Mine
1x Mind Twist

1x Necropotence
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Demonic Consultation
1x Tendrils of Agony

1x Black Lotus - or Lotus Petal
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
13x Swamp

Sideboard-

4x Leyline of the Void
4x Gate to Phyrexia
1x Tendrils of Agony
2x Diabolic Edict
1x Extirpate
1x Bad Moon
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Yixlid Jailer


IMO if  you're gonna play Suicide one of the strongest assests is being mono-colored. Tombstalker is the beats right now, it's alot easier to cast then you might imagine with all the low costing instants/sorcerys and wastelands to send to the graveyard. With Suicide black you need to spend the first few turns on total disruption, the key is to disrupt enough to stall the opponent and then be able to maintain a decent soft lock with Chalice-Null rod while you beat with Tombstalkers. Bitterblossom holds off most anything they can swing at you and they are crazy in multiples.

Suicide means throwing everything you got as fast as you can and hoping your disrupted the opponent enough where they can't recover while their clock runs out faster then yours. Night's Whisper over Dark Confidant is really great because you can control how much damage you will take and you get the cards instantly which can make all the difference, you simply don't have time to wait 2-3 turns to get those cards.

Tendrils is normally to speed up this clock and recover life. it's not a combo-out kill card and so trying to lean the deck more towards combo is a waste IMO

[brianpk80]

No. Just no.

FFS, the two halves of your deck don't even work together, there's so much anti-synergy I have to wonder if your trolling. If you are, kudos, ya got me.

This is a hyperbolic vapid assessment of the deck.  It reflects an inability to comprehend the practicalities of how a game in question would play out.  A deck like the one proffered does something disruptive on turn 1, something disruptive on turn 2, and then aims to wrap the game up more quickly than a standard Fish deck.  The "anti-synergy" between Null Rod and Tendrils of Agony is very abated when Tendrils is being used to drain 6-10 life, rather than the one shot deal it is in a storm shell.  Like all ideas & lists, there are flaws, but I find there's more insight inhering in the deck submitted than in the knee-jerk first response.  

[Stormanimagus]

No. Just no.

FFS, the two halves of your deck don't even work together, there's so much anti-synergy I have to wonder if your trolling. If you are, kudos, ya got me.

This is a hyperbolic vapid assessment of the deck.  It reflects an inability to comprehend the practicalities of how a game in question would play out.  A deck like the one proffered does something disruptive on turn 1, something disruptive on turn 2, and then aims to wrap the game up more quickly than a standard Fish deck.  The "anti-synergy" between Null Rod and Tendrils of Agony is very abated when Tendrils is being used to drain 6-10 life, rather than the one shot deal it is in a storm shell.  Like all ideas & lists, there are flaws, but I find there's more insight inhering in the deck submitted than in the knee-jerk first response.  

Thank you. Finally someone sees potential in my loony ideas. To be honest, I don't really think my first list does quite cut the mustard. For Instance, I'm not sure all the tutorable 1-ofs need to be there. Perhaps Bazaar has a place in such a deck? Forino's old list ran Bazaar. Hmmmm. . .

I'd really like to see them print a solid card for Storm combo and Black Sui decks. Something like this would be interesting to see printed:


Corrupt White Mist

BB — Sorcery

You draw 4 cards and lose 4 Life. At the beginning of target opponent's next turn that player draws 2 cards and loses 2 life.

This would be a hard card for Drain decks to bust open as it is a sorcery that costs BB and getting UU and BB up in the manabase can leave you open to wasteland pretty badly.

[Darkenslight]

What about replacing the Night's Whispers with Sign in Blood?  Targetability allows it to be a mini-Necro for the purposes of damage, and it acts as a Shock, too.

[MaxxMatt]

I see a lot of potential in this sort of "revamped" PT.Funk deck with some uncounterable finishers.
Starting from the stormanimagus list, I'll mantain deck three coloured but I'll change some cards because of my own style & reasoning


Mana (25):
4 Dark Ritual
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
3 Swamp
3 Bayou
3 Wasteland
1 Bazaar Of Baghdad
1 Underground Sea
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Jet

Winners (11)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tendrils Of Agony
1 Yawgmoth’s Will

Tutors (4)
1 Life From The Loam
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Crop Rotation / 1 Imperial Seal

Protection (12):
4 Thoughtsieze
4 Null Rod
4 Duress

Drawers (8)
4 Night’s Whisper / 3 NW + 1 Ponder
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Necropotence
1 Intuition / 1 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk


*I will play this chain of spells

4NWhispers, 1 Intuition, 1 Crop Rotaion
or
3 NW, 1 Ponder, 1 Brainstorm, 1 ISeal

for different functional reasons.


The deck packs in it two winning paths: fish.like denial aggrocontrol strategy with a final spray of comboish storm finish.
IMHO, splashing blue for so few cards can be considered a waste of solidity and redundancy but both Ancestral & Time Walk are game breaking. Singleton Brainstorm itself doesn't add too much, Ponder isn't needed and perhaps in the same slot/slots we can add Intuition in order to enhance both YWill and LftL. ISeal is really slow, even coupled with DRitual and DConfidants. Without SenseiDTop or multiple Brainstorm effects it is too predictable and not game breaking. I add Crop because of singleton lands, both gamebreaking . I don't know if it is better than ISeal covering almost the same slot, but it add diversity for Tarmogoyf, can save/trade lands when wasted and add storm counts for a cheap cost under YWill or similar situations. I will play with more fetchlands with the benefit of a deeper search for duals and a more stable mana base. Both polluted & bloodstained can search for any coloured land, so I suppose it is a better mana configuration. No more color screw of free wasted land because of dual lands flood on board.

I realize how good this massive disruption spells set can perform supported by a robust beatdown. Opponent aren't supposed to have "a lot of game choices" after a so rude hand's attack. If beatdown isn't enough, you can adjust and improve the clock with a bounce of spells and a quickly tutored ToA. I reduce the final ToA's number by one because I don't really want to see it in my hand so frequently. Tutors are supposed to be enough to guarantee it in your hand when you need it.

I'm not going to argue about disruption sets packed into the deck. 4of Thoughtsize/Duress & Rods are the needed protection cards of choice for NON.FoW.Beatdown based decks. I'm sure some spot removals and selective will be added in sideboard. Inkwell & DSC aren't game loss beacuse of the storm routine and the good winning clock of the entire deck. Rods will stop entire artifact based decks and a lot of artifact based winning routine from being abused against you. Disrupting cards, coupled with Rituals and redundant drawers ( Confidants & NWhispers ) are enough to keep your opponent hand size low and useless.

I will test this configuration a bit more and

[ilpeggiore]

Mana (24):
4 Dark Ritual
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
3 Swamp
3 Bayou
3 Wasteland
1 Bazaar Of Baghdad
1 Underground Sea
1 Black Lotus
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Jet

Winners (11)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2/1 Tendrils Of Agony
1 Yawgmoth’s Will

Tutors (5)
1 Life From The Loam
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
0/1 Regrowth

Protection (12):
4 Thoughtsieze
4 Null Rod
4 Duress

Drawers (6)
3 Night’s Whisper
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Necropotence
1 Time Walk

Tool Box (3)
1 Echoing Truth
0/1 Primordium Seal/Rushing River
1 Diabolic Edict


tool box :
why lose to a simple teeg/canonist/casual enchantment/whatthefuck when i can tutor my answer ?

no petal : don't see why should I give an extra welder-solution to my rods. Ok it's a free spell but I play rods , my enemy could play cotv or rod..... I don't think we need it. I don't believe we could use it.

regrowth : we play only a couple solution, we play a lot of singletons, we play bazar and lotus and mine. I can see a lot of situation where we would need this card.

bella maxx

[bb-g]

I like the idea, and I've played something similar:

4x    Dark Confidant
3x    Phyrexian Negater
2x    Sensei's divining top
1x    Necropotence  

4x    Chalice of the void
3x    Duress
3x    Cabal Therapy
2x    Thoughtseize


8x    Swamp
4x    Bloodstained Mire
3x    Polluted Delta

4x    Dark Ritual
4x    Cabal ritual
1x    Lotus Petal    
1x    Sol Ring
1x    mana Vault

1x    Demonic tutor
1x    Vampiric tutor
1x    Demonic consultation
1x    Yawgmoth's will  
1x    Imperial Seal
1x    Grim tutor

4x    Tendrils of Agony
1x    Time Vault
1x    Voltaic Key

Can't recall the sideboard, but If you kick the artifact's and replace them with null rod and night's whisper it still works pretty well.

I still know that deck, i actually helped building it. But this deck has a differennt approach and is more straight forward and just uses his creatures to lower the needed stormcount. Your sideboard existed of a transformation into a sui-black aggro deck with utilitycreatures as Yixlid Jailer and strong beaters.

[overseer1234]

I like the idea, and I've played something similar:

4x    Dark Confidant
3x    Phyrexian Negater
2x    Sensei's divining top
1x    Necropotence  

4x    Chalice of the void
3x    Duress
3x    Cabal Therapy
2x    Thoughtseize


8x    Swamp
4x    Bloodstained Mire
3x    Polluted Delta

4x    Dark Ritual
4x    Cabal ritual
1x    Lotus Petal    
1x    Sol Ring
1x    mana Vault

1x    Demonic tutor
1x    Vampiric tutor
1x    Demonic consultation
1x    Yawgmoth's will  
1x    Imperial Seal
1x    Grim tutor

4x    Tendrils of Agony
1x    Time Vault
1x    Voltaic Key

Can't recall the sideboard, but If you kick the artifact's and replace them with null rod and night's whisper it still works pretty well.

I still know that deck, i actually helped building it. But this deck has a differennt approach and is more straight forward and just uses his creatures to lower the needed stormcount. Your sideboard existed of a transformation into a sui-black aggro deck with utilitycreatures as Yixlid Jailer and strong beaters.

Don't forget that the creature's+cabal therapy also give free storm count.

[ArtOvWar]

Here my old sui list that went straight through swiss at a tournament.

Creature's
4x Dark Confidant
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Yixlid Jailer
2x Tombstalker

Spells:
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Jet
1x Lotus Petal
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
2x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Dark Ritual
3x Extirpate
4x Hymn To Tourach
4x Duress
4x Smallpox

Lands:
1x Strip Mine
1x Urborg, Tomb Of Yawgmoth
3x Polluted Delta
3x Bloodstained Mire
9x Swamp

// Sideboard:
2x Crucible Of Worlds
4x Leyline Of The Void
3x Heap Doll
3x Smother
3x Infest

Card Explanation.
Smallpox
It takes 3 things from the opponent for one card. So strong openings i've had with the card were: Turn 1 mox, land, smallpox when my opponent started the game.
With tricks like that you can drop a Tombstalker turn 2-3.

Duress/Hymn
The best two discard spells black has to offer. Seize is good but the lifeloss wasn't funny in this deck.

Extirpate
Since im playing with discard this one couldnt miss. Take away their counterspells, creatures or maybe the only duals they play for a color splash.

Top's
Since Null Rod wasnt really effective in my deck i wanted to run two tops. With Confidant and Fetch its just digging to answers. Also you can Vamp to a stalker. Get your top on top of your deck so you dont lose eight life with your confidant.

Mox,Lotus,Petal,Rituals
Pretty obvious if you ask me.  It gives you sick plays like turn one Duress+Confi, Hyppie turn one, Duress+hymn turn one, or Hymn+extirpate turn one.
Also i made a nice play with thanks to the B.Lotus and Rituals. I went turn one: Delta->Fetch->Swamp. Play B.lotus->Break BBB. Tap Swamp->Play Ritual. Play Hymn. BBBB floating. Dropped a Stalker after that, Had BBBB floating, with a lotus,hymn,fetch and ritual in my GY

Dark Confidant
Gives you the power to win games if they dont kill it. Its a phyrexian arena on a stick.

Jailer
Wanted to have a good chance vs Ichorid with the deck, so i wanted to run 4 of em MB. Also a 2/1 beatstick so.

Hyppie
Evasion critter with discard on it. Also a 2/2 body. With the rest of the discard your opponent wont last long.

Stalker
Your mainkill and also a clock. I cant remember how much games i won on this card alone. Its alot anyways.

Waste/Strip
More mana denial is fuuuuuuun. Atleast for us and not the opponent.

Urborg
Since i run alot of BB cards this land gives you the chance to tap your wastes/stip for B also.

Fetch/basics
Fetch is good with top and basics i dont have to explain.

Sideboard

CoW
Since i run smallpox and waste/strip i wanted in my SB, Also helps vs the Staxx MU, since stack @ one doesnt do much then. I boarded this in vs Control like Painter and MUC. To create a Strip/Waste lock.

Smother/Infest
Against Agrodecks and Fish. Smother is a good answer to anoying critters like goyf and dreadnought. Infest is good vs fish cause they run alot of 1/1 and 2/2 critters.

Heap Doll
Vs Flash, Ichorid. Its a turn one drop that can deal some damage also before you break it.

Leyline
Also vs Ichorid and Flash. With your pates MB they can kill flash easily.


I hope this is of any help.

[T00L]

Shouldn't this thread be moved to the Sui Black forum?

[Anusien]

Null Rod and Tendrils?

Wasteland/Strip and Necropotence?

Only 3 Tarmogoyf?

Where's the Time Walk?

Lotus Petal instead of Mox Sapphire?

Doesn't the deck strictly improve if you remove the Tendrils and support cards and add Force of Will, Time Walk, and Stifle or Daze?

but I want to see if a deck CAN effectively run Rituals, Confidants, multiple Tendrils AND Null Rod all in the same deck.

What makes you think it can?  Rituals, Confidants and multiple Tendrils, sure.  ANT runs all that.  But why Null Rod?  And if this is your fundamental question, why not start a discussion topic on that question?  Because here's what happened:
You posted a deck with all those cards together.
People immediately said, "Nope, those cards don't work together."
You got upset and yelled at people who were answering the question you want answered.

Fundamentally, I don't think you'll be able to string enough spells to do much relevant in the way of Tendrils.  You might be able to deal 6 damage.  That's not at all impressive, and it required you to play a bunch of blanks in your deck to get there.