[Premium Article] Pat Chapin Discusses Vintage, The Deck, and Proxies

[BruiZar]

It is impossible to host non-proxy events because people have the attitude of "why would I play without proxies when I can just play proxies somewhere else." 

Because of this Legacy is a more expensive format than proxy vintage is.

[forests failed you]

Here is where the problem lies:

The reason people want to play Vintage is that they see other people playing with Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall, and Yawgmoth's Will and think to themselves, "I want to be the guy who does that."  And then with proxies he can be for no investment in the format.  Back in the day, you had to make a real commitment to the format and in the cards to work your way up to being able to be that guy.  With proxies you give the mystique away, anybody can Yawgmoth's Will in a tournament with proxies around.  However, the people who work their way up through the ranks and earn their power, appreciate it.  They are more likely to continue to play Vintage than people who attend a few proxy events.

[Neonico]

It is impossible to host non-proxy events because people have the attitude of "why would I play without proxies when I can just play proxies somewhere else." 

Because of this Legacy is a more expensive format than proxy vintage is.

???
duals, FoW and all other legacy cards are used the same in proxy vintage, considerong you have to proxy power, bazaar, drains and shops.

I totally agree with what have been said previously. The problem isn't to allow proxy for very exepensive cards (for me, the mark is somewhere around 100$ for a card) but to have some decks with proxied 5$ cards, such as platinum angel or things like that. That's what indicates a lack of commitement. All vintage players should at least invest in all the less than 100$ cards he need to build his decks.

I think that doing some 10 proxies tounaments, in which only power, bazaar, shop, masks, library, drains could

[apocalyp]

I don't think it's a lack of commitment to proxy a 5$ card sometimes it's hard to find certain cards at the last minute.  Hell since nobody keeps commons laying around that much and most of the people I know only play vintage I couldn't find cursecatchers until I stumbled on somebody who had a playset at the store.

Again proxying isn't the problem per se.  It's the fact that proxy tournaments are the only ones around.   If it's all proxies there isn't a real reason to own the cards even if you wanna play 7 days a week, especially when a lot make really good aesthetically pleasing proxies. (Don't get me wrong I love owning the cards myself)  If large scale sanctionned tournaments with good prize support happened there would be a reason to get all the cards.  Which is probably why even with a full P9 the ICBM OPEN didn't get quite the same ratio as BOM.  If you win you win sometihng you don't really need.  

If you have a regular set of tournaments with proxies with some big sanctionned tournaments it creates the drive to want those cards again and in the end diminishing the use of proxies.

I've seen the same thing in other hobbies.  Why buy the equipment I need to do XYZ when my neighbour/family member/friend let's me borrow his equipment anytime I want.

[LessThanRight]

I for one support proxies (without them I'd just have to stop playing).  Here's an idea for TO's.  'Charge' people points or tie breaker percentage for proxy use.  1% per proxy.  I'd be willing to sacrifice 15% on my tie breaker percentage to simply play the deck of my choice.  This would seem to push the 'serious' players to invest and those of us who come to one tourney a year can still compete with the deck of their choice.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I for one support proxies (without them I'd just have to stop playing).  Here's an idea for TO's.  'Charge' people points or tie breaker percentage for proxy use.  1% per proxy.  I'd be willing to sacrifice 15% on my tie breaker percentage to simply play the deck of my choice.  This would seem to push the 'serious' players to invest and those of us who come to one tourney a year can still compete with the deck of their choice.

I think most people would prefer the thing that decideds who the best players are be based on who did the best in the event. Not who has the bigger wallet, thats part of the reason we use proxies.

[BruiZar]

It is impossible to host non-proxy events because people have the attitude of "why would I play without proxies when I can just play proxies somewhere else."  

Because of this Legacy is a more expensive format than proxy vintage is.

???
duals, FoW and all other legacy cards are used the same in proxy vintage, considerong you have to proxy power, bazaar, drains and shops.

I totally agree with what have been said previously. The problem isn't to allow proxy for very exepensive cards (for me, the mark is somewhere around 100$ for a card) but to have some decks with proxied 5$ cards, such as platinum angel or things like that. That's what indicates a lack of commitement. All vintage players should at least invest in all the less than 100$ cards he need to build his decks.

I think that doing some 10 proxies tounaments, in which only power, bazaar, shop, masks, library, drains could

Vintage deck often use cheap cards such as demonic consultation, ponder, brainstorm, red elemental blast, fire/ice, gorilla shaman, relic/crypt, inkwell, duress, dark ritual , empty the warrens, fact or fiction, merchant scroll, hurkyll's recall, etc. Legacy uses stuff like 4x Lion's Eye Diamond, 4x Sinkhole, 4x Vindicate, 4x Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, 4x Imperial Recruiter. In fact, legacy pushes the market for eternal cards more than vintage does.

[Doomsday]

Legacy also uses those same cheap cards, except they can use them as 4-ofs.  I don't think the cost of 4x Lion's Eye Diamonds, Sinkholes and Vindicates makes up for the lack of Black Lotus, 5 Moxen, Imperial Seal, Drains, Workshops, etc.

[BruiZar]

Legacy also uses those same cheap cards, except they can use them as 4-ofs.  I don't think the cost of 4x Lion's Eye Diamonds, Sinkholes and Vindicates makes up for the lack of Black Lotus, 5 Moxen, Imperial Seal, Drains, Workshops, etc.

It does if you get to proxy that lotus, those 5 moxen and a set of workshops.

[Doomsday]

It doesn't look like it really works that way though.  What would be the most expensive Legacy deck to run?  The UBG one with Forces and Goyfs (EDIT: Team America)?  I don't know, that's why I'm asking.  I doubt it's more expensive than a Tezz deck even with the 10 priciest cards proxied.

[2nd_lawl]

It doesn't look like it really works that way though.  What would be the most expensive Legacy deck to run?  The UBG one with Forces and Goyfs (EDIT: Team America)?  I don't know, that's why I'm asking.  I doubt it's more expensive than a Tezz deck even with the 10 priciest cards proxied.

43 land is quite expensive Tabernacle at pendrell Vale + Duals + Fetches + explorations + loams.

[moxpearl]

This topic is getting somewhat off on a tanget...

Back to the issue of proxies and Vintage, I'll add myself to the camp that it would better if we returned to the era of no or less proxies.   The ONLY reason for proxies is that there is a high barrier to entry and proxies may be a necessary evil in having a viable player base (though Europe has somewhat proved that false.)  I don't agree with arguments that competitive decks should be affordable, it's not fair to play against a fully powered player, need access to that sideboard card at the last minute, etc..  You have to deal with those issues in every other format, so Vintage should be no different.  True, the costs are higher, but that's part of what makes Vintage Vintage -- layiing down the $700 Black Lotus and casting a $400 Ancestral and $350 Time Walk.  What also makes Vintage is the fish player playing a $10 null rod and beating you.

A few other ideas I like:
* Local level tournaments with low (e.g. 8) proxies and larger no proxy tournaments sanctioned by Wizards and given visibility (coverage, rankings) by Wizards.   I think increased visibility of Legacy (a grand prix, format at world's, website coverage) has gone a long ways in increasing the popularity of that format.
* Focussing on the unique demographics of our community - older players, etc.
* Limiting proxies to the Legacy banned list.   If you can't proxy it in Legacy, why should you be able to proxy it in Vintage?  Someone else mentioned this somewhere, but it could also help build synergy between the eternal formats if Vintage players invested in the Legacy cards and vice versa.
* More prizes for unpowered players.   I probably would prefer to play sanctioned vintage where the top unpowered player got the SAME prize as the top powered player, just as long as there were no proxies.

[Hillboy]

I have a question. As a casual player who likes vintage I've found myself slowly building up my collection with the best deals I find on cards, and when I found out some time ago that legacy allowed 4 Led's and 4 Lotus Petals I bought them immediately. When Grim Monolith was unrestricted I bought the 3 extra I needed immediately. Now where I'm going with this is if the problem in vintage is cost and proxy use. Maybe some of the problem could be alleviated through unrestrictions. Or would powered players run 4 LED's and 4 Lotus petals in addition to power making the point moot. I guess what I'm getting at is Why does legacy have use of these cards while vintage does not? Would unrestricting them help or hurt? Are they restricted simply because of Yawgmoth's Will? Would unrestricting them and banning Yawgmoth's will help to eventually leading to a 0 proxy vintage? I'm just spitballing here... but could 0 proxy vintage work with the right balance of restrictions and unrestrictions or is that simply why Legacy was created in the first place. Maybe I should just play Legacy...

[Smmenen]

The fact is that the more weplay and the time goes, the less aviable power you will get, and after power, you'll have more and more problems to acces to Bilands, than Force of Wills, etc.....

Proxies are the future of vintage in my point of view... Simply because 17 years after, the power print run is too low.

Yeah, because 18,000 printed copies of Black Lotus is not nearly enough to support a couple of hundred Vintage players.   

Oh wait...

Wizards would never go for a Vintage Grand Prix simply because of card accessibility concerns.

That is off the table, not even up for discussion.   

It seems pretty paradoxical to suggest that there are enough cards to support a vintage player base but not enough to support a sanctioned, GP/PT level event. 

No matter how you argue it, Vintage has the highest entry costs of any Magic format, and if you were to eliminate the one method we have as a community of reducing those overall costs, you *WILL* see a decline in new players.  Now, you argue that we're better off placing our emphasis on higher player retention than on higher rates of new players; that's fine, but I posit that the increased number of retained players from forcing ownership (of several thousand dollars worth of goods) is less by a magnitude than the number of new players who would be attracted in if they're allowed to circumvent *SOME* of the costs (Remember, nobody's advocating 75 proxies here; you have to already own at least a couple hundred dollars worth of cards to compete even in a 15 proxy field).

It may appear like it, especially since I helped start the push towards arguing against proxies, but I've backtracked somewhat.  I do not agree with this article about going to no proxies.   

The reason that there are enough cards to support a Vintage player base is simply because there are enough physical cards in existence, by far, to support enough Vintage players to compete in a serious Vintage tournament scene.  However, it isn't enough to justify running a Grand Prix, where 1000 players are expected to attend.   

I don't think the goal for successful Vintage should be 1,000 players, but more like 200.    I think the goal for American Vintage should be establishing 4-5 200 player tournaments per year.  For that reason, I am no longer opposed to proxies.  I believe that proxies do produce long term costs, but I think that those costs can be mitigated in other ways.  See my blog on this website for more on this.

[M.Solymossy]

Who is the guy to email @ Wizards in regards to organized play?  I would love to see this:

1 Monthly proxy tournament being held in each major vintage location (Cleveland/Pittsburg, Chicago, New England, NorCal and Colorado).   Each one of these organizers need to get together and say "this is how we're doing it".

1 tournament, Sanctioned by wizards, every 3 months not counting Gencon, in a different location (probably Chicago or Indianapolis due to easy travel, maybe in ohio sometimes too).  These tournaments need to offer a Guarenteed prize for Powered and Unpowered.     These would be 3 times a year, because of Gencon

1 big *ICBM Open/waterbury* style event, 10 proxies, for huge prizes.

Gencon/Vintage Champs



This gives people the means to WIN power, the reason to KEEP power, a big event for those of us that don't have full power, and then the big Gencon event.   

[disrupting specter]

I was really hoping to see some discussion on Chapin’s Five-Color Fish/Hate deck. (no tengo la premium) I guess it really wasn't that good if he and Brian DeMars started working on Steel City and the latter took that to V World's?

[honestabe]

Who is the guy to email @ Wizards in regards to organized play?  I would love to see this:

1 Monthly proxy tournament being held in each major vintage location (Cleveland/Pittsburg, Chicago, New England, NorCal and Colorado).   Each one of these organizers need to get together and say "this is how we're doing it".

1 tournament, Sanctioned by wizards, every 3 months not counting Gencon, in a different location (probably Chicago or Indianapolis due to easy travel, maybe in ohio sometimes too).  These tournaments need to offer a Guarenteed prize for Powered and Unpowered.     These would be 3 times a year, because of Gencon

1 big *ICBM Open/waterbury* style event, 10 proxies, for huge prizes.

Gencon/Vintage Champs



This gives people the means to WIN power, the reason to KEEP power, a big event for those of us that don't have full power, and then the big Gencon event.   

I gree 100 percent.  There needs to be a way to get people to play vintage, and also a reason for them to keep the power they win.

[moxpearl]

Just noticed that the Austin Pro Tour has a public Vintage Tournament with power to both finalists AND a power going to the top non-powered deck!  Kudos to the tournament organizer.

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/protour/austin09-public

Saturday, October 17
4:00 PM $15 Vintage Constructed
Winner receives choice of 2 selected pieces of Power 9, second place receives the other.
Additionally, the top finishing player whose deck contains no Power 9 cards will receive a selected piece of Power 9.

[Smmenen]

I believe this article is now free.  FYI.  Chapin and a bunch of Pros swear by the Deck.   I'm not kidding!

[healo]

The first goal of Vintage should be to find ways to retain existing players.  I've discussed this point at length elsewhere, but it's simple math and stock and flows issue.    Vintage has many barriers to entry and the flow of players into Vintage is very small.   Holding onto existing players should be much easier than trying to target new ones.   An existing player, if you keep them in Vintage for several decades, should take less work the getting new players and you will get far more out of them.  

Thats exactly my case. I cant stress enough, how true this is. Im from middle Europe and what drives me on is my passion, that I keep for playing a deck without proxy cards. Over 10 years Im aware of "Magic: The Gathering" I have this feel somewhere deep inside me and I might end up owning all the power. Its just that easy. People lack passion. In my country - there are no proxy cards allowed in tournaments which absolutely cant prevent me from attending them. I love Vintage, I love the nostalgy all around the cards and I would die to tapping Island -> Ancestral Recall one day, which Ive never experienced yet.

[unixtreme]

1.  I've been in and out of Magic a few times, and I've been in and out of Vintage more than that.  Every time that I've been actively playing Vintage I've worked to get power and all the other cards that you need to play.  I've worked to have a collection where I could play any deck in the environment that I wanted to play - because I hate proxies and love playing the game.

And yet, there are some ppl that really loves the game (like me) but that can't spend thousands of dollars on P9 without a little proxy help, I spend about 8 hours a day playing magic/reading forums or articles and I really love the game but for me is impossible right now to buy all the P9, so my choices are either going to 5-proxy tournaments o playing gobbos or some other stupid deck with no chances (imho). As I see it, I understand that veteran vintage players, non student or ppl that just had the chance to buy cheap P9 a few years ago don't like proxies, I don't like them either, but I think that if you want to see new players in the format you'll need to make an small sacrifice allowing some of them (and maybe progressivelly cutting them). Cause I've never been as interested in magic as the first time I went to a tournament and played a shop deck, and yet, some ppl that just loves the game and doesn't have a job/infinite money would spend 90% of hes money on the game they love. And for me, Its more worthy on a tournament a guy that buys 4 shops having almost no money and loves the game, plays the game, enjoys the game, thinks 24/7 about improving decks/playstile that a guy that just buys the P9 to be able to go to a tournament to show how a nice deckbuilder/whatever he is.

Again, my 2 cents.

[Valorale]

And yet, there are some ppl that really loves the game (like me) but that can't spend thousands of dollars on P9 without a little proxy help, I spend about 8 hours a day playing magic/reading forums or articles

All depends on how bad you want it (power that is) .. get a job delivering pizzas for 4-5 hrs in the evening and in a week time you should be able to assemble enough money to buy at least a Timetwister if not a Mox Pearl.

[unixtreme]

All depends on how bad you want it (power that is) .. get a job delivering pizzas for 4-5 hrs in the evening and in a week time you should be able to assemble enough money to buy at least a Timetwister if not a Mox Pearl.

That's true, but personal situations change everything, actually I don't have any time to work, I spend it on class or taking care of my sister/house. If I could I'd be working, by the way I'm not talking about not buying P9, just allowing some amount of proxies (5 is not that much taking into account that I play 5c Stax) making ppl buy some cards and allowing them to go to some tournaments before they decide to buy most of them. BTW dunno there but here in spain you would need two weeks of pizza delivering in order to buy a Pearl.

PS: Thanks for the suggestion I'm gonna consider pizza delivering if I manage to get the time.

[vroman]

Anti-proxy zealotry is economically nonviable. Even when I was running a store and had multiple sets of power moving through inventory on a regular basis, it was RARE for me to have absolutely zero proxies in a deck. The opportunity cost of having $thousands tied up in non-interest bearing card collection is high. Even those of us who can afford it and play regularly, frequently have strong incentives to not own power.
I wouldn't travel to a zero-proxy tourney (other than Gencon, and I haven't even gone to that every year), because even if I managed to get a full set in time, I'd have to find several other people with similar assets and weekend availability to split gas with in order to be cost effective; and even with full power, there is often an obscure sideboard card that comes to light in days/hours prior to event. Sanctioned vintage pushes out-of-towners at the margin into non-attendance. The logistics are crappy. Event organizers will lose more realists than they will gain idealists, if they choose sanctioning.
I would rather see unlimited proxy before zero proxy, and I own currently everything except Time Walk and Sapphire.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I agree with Vroman.  I recently purchased 8 pieces of EX UL power for 3000 US (already had Jet)--I had money saved and could afford it, but I think that for most people this kind of cost is unrealistic (and also note that prices would probably increase if proxies were to be eliminated); they either do not have the money, or would rather spend it on things other than cardboard.  If you try to force people to buy power in order to compete, even gradually, many of the occasional weekend tournament-goers who fill out events will simply quit, greatly harming the format.  I would like to see as many people playing Vintage as possible, not just die-hard power-owners.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I'd have to leave vintage if proxies were reduced/eliminated. "PhD student in computational neuroscience" sounds great, but the pay is crap until I graduate.

The reality is that you have to have a "real" job in order to afford power, and once you have sufficient income...you're probably at a point in your life where a significant other will whine if you drop $3k into cardboard.

Also, Vroman's analysis is spot-on: power is a shitty investment.  If I'm going to sink $3k into magic, it'll be hoarding legacy staples like FoW and duals.

[Xyre]

One alternative I don't think people have addressed is adapting existing "bonus prizes for non-powered decks" prize structures into a system that accomodates both proxy enthusiasts and the long-run members of the format: offer a set of bonus prizes for non-proxy decks in addition to the usual prize distribution.

What this type of price discrimination allows for is an incentive to acquire Power 9. Considering the sustainability of the format (especially the sustainability of the format in terms of overall tournament participation capacity) is directly linked to ownership of power, as many have argued, providing incentives to acquire power is good for the lifeblood of the format, as it increases their benefit from owning power.

Obviously, charging for proxies is a poor strategy; on a $20-$30 admission fee for the tournament, an extra $5-$15 to play whatever deck you want is a small price indeed. Likewise, saving that five to fifteen each tournament is nowhere near an incentive to acquire power, which leaves the format on the everyone-is-unpowered precipice. If, on the other hand, admission were increased $5 dollars and that money went directly into one or two cash prizes for the highest ranking no-proxy deck outside the regular prizes, you could give out, say, an extra $200 in prizes on a medium-size tournament. Not only does this make the players happier, as one might expect from higher payouts, it provides incentive to acquire power. This is doubly true in smaller groups, where one person acquiring power may have it subsidized by such a payout system, which in turn will get more players interested in buying power.

Furthermore, it increases the incentive to stay in for those who own power but are unsure whether to continue - the kinds of people who react negatively to proxy systems. Where these people might not value their extra five bucks per tournament enough to offset the negative impression made by a proxy system, they might be more interested if they have a chance to multiply that five dollar investment, as such a prize system would permit.

What this does that a no-proxy, extra-prize-to-unpowered-deck system can't is allow for format flow while at the same time increasing stability. Say you're the best vintage player in your store of 50 people without power, but there are at least 8 people with power who can routinely beat you in no-proxy vintage. With the extra-prize-to-highest-unpowered system, that player has little incentive to acquire power, since he's still making bank despite not having power; even if he doesn't make the top 8, he's basically guaranteed prizes due to his skill. At the same time, however, his lack of investment in the format makes it tricky to keep him in. What proxies do is they give a player a taste of the good life, which while not directly increasing format-ownership does make a player more likely to care about the format and his or her success in it; by increasing incentives to buy into the format, meanwhile, he can have greater incentive to re-invest his winnings into the format by acquiring more power, since that increases his long-run earnings, and in turn increases his incentive to stay in.

While this obviously isn't a perfect solution (some people won't be swayed by more money to play with proxies, e.g.), I'm surprised nobody's tried it. Or, at least I haven't seen anyone try it.

[Shean]

What proxies do is they give a player a taste of the good life, which while not directly increasing format-ownership does make a player more likely to care about the format and his or her success in it; by increasing incentives to buy into the format, meanwhile, he can have greater incentive to re-invest his winnings into the format by acquiring more power, since that increases his long-run earnings, and in turn increases his incentive to stay in.

I've read this sentence 4 times and still don't quite understand what you're trying to say.

After re-reading your post a few times, I think you're trying to advocate no proxies, but increase the payout for highest non-powered deck.  If I'm wrong, you can ignore the rest of this.

In my opinion, playing for an afterthought prize is not good enough incentive to go to a tournament.  I play T1 to play with the best cards in Magic, and I'm sure I'm not alone here.  If I have to play an obviously weaker deck than the best decks, there's no point in even going to a tournament.  I want to play what I believe to be the best deck in an attempt to win the tournament, not play some lower-tier deck with the hopes of getting a door prize.

[Odd mutation]

How about the deck Chapin posted? It looks... 'weird'.
Does anynbody have some experience with it?

Chapin and a bunch of Pros swear by The Deck. I'm not kidding!

I have seen it maybe once in a top 8 somewhere some time ago. Where are all those top players who play this deck and why are they not top 8-ing? Not meant to be irritating, just genuinely curious...

Robrecht.

[scifiantihero]

What proxies do is they give a player a taste of the good life, which while not directly increasing format-ownership does make a player more likely to care about the format and his or her success in it; by increasing incentives to buy into the format, meanwhile, he can have greater incentive to re-invest his winnings into the format by acquiring more power, since that increases his long-run earnings, and in turn increases his incentive to stay in.

I've read this sentence 4 times and still don't quite understand what you're trying to say.

After re-reading your post a few times, I think you're trying to advocate no proxies, but increase the payout for highest non-powered deck.  If I'm wrong, you can ignore the rest of this.

I believe he is advocating proxy tournaments with two payout structures: one for the entire tournament and one for the people without any proxies.  So, you can go with a proxied deck and win,  and then have an incentive to spend those winnings on the real cards so eventually when you place high without any proxies you have a shot at winning even more.  Winning the tournament for a prize with proxies is 'a taste of the good life.'  The incentive for 'increase[d] long-run earnings ' is that second level of prize pay-out.