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Author Topic: An Annoying Small Creature Deck  (Read 1931 times)
mestu
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« on: August 22, 2009, 10:56:07 pm »

Here is a deck idea that I had a while back. 

4 Hidden Guerrillas
4 Hidden Gibbons
4 Birds of Paradise

4 Abeyance
4 Orim's Chant
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Glowrider
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Kataki
Jotun Grunt

Ancestral Recall
Timewalk

Demonic Tutor
Diabolic Edict
Vampiric Tutor

Gaddock Teeg
Merieke Ri Berit

4 Savannah
4 City of Brass
2 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Wasteland
Strip Mine

Mox Jet
Mox Emerald
Mox Pearl
Mox Sapphire
Lotus

I feel like Hidden Guerrillas is incredibly amazing and should be a staple in any deck.  I also think that Abeyance and Orim's are very much underplayed.  They are fun cards to play in response to a dark ritual or a yawg or just at the beginning of a turn.  Also Merieke is so obviously broken that she belongs in any deck that is willing to run white black and blue... 
So my problems with this deck are numerous.  One problem is that it is very hit or miss.  Sometimes I play the right annoying creature and hose someone right off, for instance playing Canonist or glowrider against tendrils decks.  Sometimes someone lets me get some hidden creatures and then gets abeyanced/orims a couple of turns in a row and gets beat down.
Other times however, I get the wrong creature or someone plays a card that hoses me and I have no way to get rid of it, or my hiddons don't beat in time or don't get turned over until like turn 4 when I am about to die, etc.  Then I think this deck is trash.
So...

Is hidden gibbons really that good? 
Should I run Duress or Thoughtseize?
Should I run some artifact distruction?
Should I consider drawing other than during my draw phase? (this is an obvious yes but I'm not sure which way to go)
How about Thorn of Amethyst? It started as a no brainer but somewhere along the way it got dropped.
Turmagoyf, Mold guy?
What is this deck trying to do again?
Would you want to play against/with this deck?

I need help!
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timp
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« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2009, 12:49:25 am »

i notice that most of your stuff is conditionally good against certain decks...most decks either go all in with the win condition or stall into it
it tends to reason that a person can just play around your deck which doesn't make this optimal
most people who play vintage competitively only really have a few genres of decks to work in and these genres are already well established
so most criticism will be "why don't you just play this version" or "there are better cards you could play in a fish style deck" and so on
but if you really wan to play competitively research the vintage encyclopedia these fine gentlemen have assembled here http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37514.0 and look at the winning trends of decks on the tournament report forum to see what the top dogs are using for tech

also remember that not everyone owns/plays with power so the gorilla thing is not a 100% but would be a hilarious side board card when you know what your opponent is playing

welcome and best of luck
-tim
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mestu
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« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2009, 12:16:41 pm »

Thanks for the comments.

i notice that most of your stuff is conditionally good against certain decks...most decks either go all in with the win condition or stall into it
it tends to reason that a person can just play around your deck which doesn't make this optimal

Yea you are dead on here.  This is probably the main area that my deck needs improvement.  I think confidants are probably a good idea, maybe naturalize and the one white artifact killer.  Duress is always a good card.  But first I wanna find the really good cards that people aren't expecting.  Root maze is another card that should probably be in here.

there are better cards you could play in a fish style deck

definitely true. 

if you really wan to play competitively research the vintage encyclopedia these fine gentlemen have assembled here http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37514.0 and look at the winning trends of decks on the tournament report forum to see what the top dogs are using for tech

I play a solid versions of TPS, very similar to the most recent decklists that have been top 8ing.  I have also been toying around with a BU deck with arcane denial draw engine in addition to confidants.  The rest is straightforward.  It is testing very well. 

also remember that not everyone owns/plays with power so the gorilla thing is not a 100% but would be a hilarious side board card when you know what your opponent is playing

In all seriousness Hidden Guerrillas is more than a hilarious card.  Merieke is pretty weak tho, that was more of a joke.  Gibbons is much more iffy but probably headed for the sideboard not as a 4 of.  I do intend for this to be a serious deck but it needs serious improvement.
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RecklessEmbermage
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« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2009, 05:30:57 pm »

This looks very greedy, 4 colors and all. How about starting in the other end of the spectrum -monogreen, and add when needs appear?

4 Hidden Guerrillas
4 Hidden Gibbons
4 Root Maze
4 Oath of Druids (Hehe..  Might be better in the sideboard, but I had trouble filling the list)

2 Progenitus (Without oath, Mold Adder may be an idea)

4 Pithing Needle
4 Null Rod
2 Chalice of the Void
3 Winter Orb
4 Black Vise
Mox Emerald
Lotus
Lotus Petal

4 Simian Spirit Guide
9 Forests
4 Wasteland
Strip Mine

4 slots are empty. I didn't find anything worthwhile. Ideas?
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meadbert
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« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2009, 08:27:27 pm »

The Spirit Guids have dissynergy with Oaths.  I wonder if Oath fits at all.  It is risky since an opponent could trigger a Hidden card so he can Oath up DSC.

I am also not sure about Black Vice.  It seems to have nice Synergy with the deck, but only taking 3 life a turn is probably not good enough.

I would say drop the Oaths and probably the Black Vices.  Then add Tarmogoyf and possibly Mold Adder.

Adding the first color is basically free.  Going to white gets enough extra options such as Teague and Mindscensor so I see no reason not to run at least white.
At that point the question is whether City of Brass, Gemstone Mine and Birds of Paradize are enough to add the broken cards.  In this case, I am not sure.
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T1: Arsenal
mestu
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« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2009, 09:58:53 pm »

Thank you for all of the responses.  Here is the first revision:

4 Hidden Guerrillas
4 Root Maze
4 Birds of Paradise

3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage

4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Glowrider
2 Aven Mindcensor

4 Dark Confidant
2 Diabolic Edict
Demonic Tutor
Demonic Consultation
Vampiric Tutor

3 Null Rod
2 Pithing Needle
Black Lotus
Mox Emerald
Mox Pearl
Mox Jet

Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath

I am sad to see the orim's and the abeyance leave but I think they may come back if some other cards aren't working out for me.  Blue had to go.
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RecklessEmbermage
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« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2009, 05:24:31 am »

The Spirit Guids have dissynergy with Oaths.  I wonder if Oath fits at all.  It is risky since an opponent could trigger a Hidden card so he can Oath up DSC.

I am also not sure about Black Vice.  It seems to have nice Synergy with the deck, but only taking 3 life a turn is probably not good enough.

I would say drop the Oaths and probably the Black Vices.  Then add Tarmogoyf and possibly Mold Adder.

Adding the first color is basically free.  Going to white gets enough extra options such as Teague and Mindscensor so I see no reason not to run at least white.
At that point the question is whether City of Brass, Gemstone Mine and Birds of Paradize are enough to add the broken cards.  In this case, I am not sure.

Argh. I can't believe I ESG+Oathed.

Goyf and adder were my thougths for the alternative build too, and you're absolutely right that vise is somewhat on the weak side.

Metsu: Doesn't glowrider and canonist perform roughly the same role? I have yet to see the big thing with canonist, as it only seems to force the opponent into playing his bigger-than-yours spells a tiny bit more conservatively and can still counter and draw during your turn. It is obviously good versus TPS, but shouldn't glowrider be covering that well enough maindeck? Glowrider seems way more versatile, and I'm surprised it doesn't see more play.

I'm somewhat sceptical to manabirds in fish, and would rather duress or null rod/needle turn one, but your three-drops may be strong enough to justify them. One downside to the whole birds+glowrider+mindcensor package is that you become very vulnerable to darkblast, contagion, triskelion, fanatic...

If you see that you could skimp on some hate-creature or the other (I'd cut canonists, but metas differ, obv), try the full 4 pridemages main. The pump matters, they're highly versatile and they save sideboard slots.
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