opinions needed

[shroomy2dope]

I am a long time player from indiana ive been playing since weatherlight and most of my group has been playing longer   we never really played mainstream but our metagame usually followed pretty close to the current t1 format, with several exceptions with the unrestriction of entomb dragon combo has spread like wildfire and dominated stax, drain, and tezz  but its been running on a no bazaar and very little control build.   its pure combo speed is impressive and its dauntingly hard to counter without the game resulting in a draw

       I would like the opinions of the profesional vintage community on this refurbished design of the dragon combo



creatures
4  worldgorger dragon  

artifacts
1 black lotus  
1 lotus petal
1 mox jet
1 mox saphire

enchantments
4 animate dead
3 dance of the dead
1 necromancy

instants
1 ancestrial recall
1 demonic consultation
1 vampiric tutor
1 mystic tutor
2 pact of negation
2 cunning wish
3 whispers of the muse
4 dark ritual
4 read the runes
4 entomb
sorcery
1 demonic tutor
4 carefull study

lands
4 bloodstained mire
2 gemstone mine
4 polluted delta
4 underground sea
1 bad land
1 volcanic island

sideboard
1 stroke of genius
1 caller of the claw
3 pithing needle
2 red elemental blast
3 pyroblast
1 rack and ruin
4 chain of vapor


this deck is a frequent first turn win/draw but a usual second

the combo goes of with 3 mana typically

dragon usually hits the grave on turn one with three routes  carefull study, entomb, anrecall/discard or it invokes one of three one mana tutor options

on second turn it pulls one of 7 two mana reanimation spells to ignite the combo and with a ritual mana base this often happens on turn one

it uses read the runes / whispers to draw the deck once the mana base is established ensuring two pacts of negation   if you counter runes more than likely the game is a draw due to the combos continuous triggered ability  runes also doubles as a 2 mana spell for  draw one card discard one dragon

the kill spell doesnt even reside in the deck this way theres less potential for removel and discarding and cunning wish is a good fish for answers options once youre infinate

the elimination of mana burn is also a mitigating factor for dragon


 hate
graveyard hate is heavy in 3 forms
jailer,crypt and leyline
-1 lotus petal
-1 cunning wish  
-1 demonic consultation
-1 necromancy
+4 chain of vapor

jailer doesnt effect dragon

tormod's crypt and leyline are not such problems if tou get a ritual or lotus on the draw. the engine is cheap enough that a vapor can be cast on the same turn you combo.  you just hit before you bury gorger. if they sack in response theres no harm done thats only a 4 mana kill  easy enough by turn two with 4 chains and a ritual mana base.
 

[median]

it looks great to me.
I was skeptical at first, but after a few goldfishes i found the main improvements would be to take out the badlands (i never found it necessary to hard cast dragon) and make some changes to the board.
probably a split of rebuild/hurkyl's for artifact hate, i would also try and fit in a read the runes for your wishboard.

this would let you run a more solid/less hate able land base.
you probably know the deck and the meta better than me, but with leyline coming down turn zero, force is less of a powerhouse, still it might be nice.

suggested changes

main,

-1 read the runes
+1 chain of vapor


side

-2 shattering spree
-2 rack and ruin
-1 chain of vapor

+1 read the runes
+2 hurkyl's recall
+2 rebuild



land

-2  badlands
-4 gemstone mines
-2 bloodstained mire


+3 polluted delta
+3 swamp
+2 island

Edit; Assuming the four cards that would bring the deck from 56-60 are entombs.

[shroomy2dope]

bad land was for the sideboarded artifact hate  not for casting worldgorger.
gemstone mine is the best land available for two reasons  the game rarely lasts longer tham three turns and it gets its counters replenished every time it returns to play during the combo  the deck stopped running basics because every land should be able to potentialy produce the two colors needed to win but one volcanic island might be better than one badland  it was the turn one dark rituals that decided in favor of badlands.

[smasher]

How important are the whispers of the muse if you have read the runes already?
I have seen some people play a 1 of mulldrifter to draw through the deck and a 1 of oona to mill for the win.

Would this work to play 1 of each and leave in 1 whispers? maybe the whispers isnt needed at all.

The Oona queen of the fae looks nice as an alternate win to go alongside the cunning wish win.

[jaeppel]

this seems really suboptimal without the bazaars.  I am assuming that you skipped them for budget reasons, yet i cant help notice that you do have a lotus and recall in the deck...  i am assuming these are your only $$$ cards, still a lotus and recall are worth a bunch more than 4bazaar, and that swap would make good sense here.

without bazaar the traditional single oona doesnt work, since you cant just mill into her.  the careful studies cant be cast during the dragon loop, with makes them i weak choice as a drawspell imho.  except that they are needed for the discard outlet since you have no bazaar.

i guess my main point is that dragon is a bazaar deck, and not a ritual deck.  I think you are leaning on the wrong pillar here. 

[shroomy2dope]

I have a set of bazaars but the deck actually runs better without them. i prefer to win with a spell instead of a creature and since that only requires one card to be put in the grave spells like entomb, carefull study, and read the runes seem to be more efficient. this way i get a steadier mana base from land sources as well.   i'm only going to drop one or two lands

dragon originally played cards like burried alive, shivan hellkite, and ambasador laquatus then once people took notice of it they re-vamped it to play cards like bazaar, witness, unmask, and,intuition  and recent incarnations even run the multidrifter and Ooona  however dragons always been a second rate deck because the cards lacked synergy and the mana base required too many turns to execute the combo. also bazaar was to crucial and became an easy target  i believe the ritual build is much more streamline and efficient. 
  i've played many versions of the deck and ritual seems to be the best pillar to lean on

[BruiZar]

I'm not a dragon player myself, but I can imagine that with the unrestriction of Entomb, Dark ritual becomes an attractive choice because it can cast an Entomb + Animate Dead off a single Ritual. I'm not sure how many combinations and percentages this occurs, but I can definately see where you are coming from.

I think you need some more advice from the more expert WGD players.

[silvernail]

I would still consider using Bazaar over Whipsers of the Muse because bazaar is a better draw than whispers when you aren't going off.

[shroomy2dope]

i depend heavilly on my first and second land to establish my mana base for the rest of the game. i really like bazaar but its a land that doesnt produce mana and my kill is a card not a creature to put into the graveyard. usually the excess cards i have to discard to bazaar are the cards that i need to win. draw engines really arnt neccessary in this WGD build because every card i need is usually in the top nine of my library.  the draw ratios are really good for this deck with 13 ways to put the dragon in the grave, 3 different reanimation spells and nine spells for the win. no essential cards are restricted. i know whispers is a weak card but its pretty efficent here. if i played bazaar in its place id still have to find a kill spell once i combo. whispers picks up my whole deck im not against bazaar id like to find away to play it that still lets me capitalize on the ritual/entomb design that actually makes this deck worth considering

if theres anyone who has experiance with WGD who will be willing to help me redesign the deck based upon those lines i would greatly appreciate it.

[swawagon]

if i played bazaar in its place id still have to find a kill spell once i combo. whispers picks up my whole deck im not against bazaar id like to find away to play it that still lets me capitalize on the ritual/entomb design that actually makes this deck worth considering

If the 2 Cunning Wish were 1 Oona Queen of the Fae and maybe 1 Mulldrifter you would have a win condition with Bazaar once you combo, as the Animate spell could then grab the Oona that eventually gets milled in the grave via Bazaar activations. Bazaar of Baghdad is free, uncounterable digging and 4 should almost definitely be in Dragon...

[Beralt]

Should be running at least Jet & Sapphire, otherwise it folds to a Single Blood Moon - albeit that is not played that much but it's possible - furthermore I would go at least one Swamp and one Island for more wasteland resiliency.  Leyline of the Void is in some maindeck builds, notably Ichorid or anything running Leyline and Helm of Obedience.  I guess in a wider metagame you might consider running a Chain of Vapor in the main.  You could easily cut the Badlands main, as it is seldom necessary to hardcast the Dragon (as stated above), but it does give your sideboard a bit more flexibility.

I am not a fan of Whispers of the Muse, Bazaar of Baghdad seems so much better.  I would also consider Force of Will, are your two Pacts of Negation reallly drawn enough to protect you?  More Force is better at least switching to 2 Pacts and 2 Force might give you a bit more protection.

The Bazaars also allow you to use Oona or Eternal Witness as a kill card, although Eternal Witness takes forever if you opponents make you play it out.

Dragon is also suffering from increased creature hate, as various people are switching over to some way to take care of Mr. Untargetable - Inkwell Leviathan - Diabolic Edict is seeing somewhat of an upswing in it's use.  Swords has been a possible Fish card for awhile and sees more play in lower powered metagames.

I know it wins on the play some of the time, but there seems to be a surplus of answers if it's facing other decks which go first.  Fish has Daze, Stifle & Force.  G/W Beatings has pridemage or Teeg.  Suicide black can strip your reanimation with Duress/Thoughtseize, and many other decks use discard.  Stax only seems to slow Dragon, but builds with Blue can be troublesome.  Enough blathering - good luck.

[shroomy2dope]

bazaar works well with Oona and other creature win conditions but thats all Oona does     
 whispers and runes pick up my entire library ensuring that i have two castable countersand an extra cunning wish available   
 read the runes also acts as a cheap way to discard worldgorger
 if i switch to bazaar/Oona then i have two different cards to get into the grave digging with just the bazzar and i dont have a counter backing up my win condition. 
 pact of negations are better for me than f.o.w. here.    i dont ever really need to draw pact i just like having it when i pick up my library. and the card i would remove from f.o.w usually ends up being the card i need to win .   
  when i go up against a heavy blue counter environ i usually board like this


-1necromancy
-1demonic consultation
-1lotus petal
-2whispers of the muse
+3pyroblast
+2red elemental blast

i suppose ill start trying to intigrate a couple of bazarrs without changing the basic infrastucture of the deck but i have to establish a mana curve that still allows frequent second turn reanimation with the loss of a mana producing land on the first two turns. but from experiance i believe The win with Oona type creatures to be insufficient. when you play limited copies its too random. they never hit with the bazaar until its too late does that meen i should run imperial seal too. to help get a creature to the top? im open for suggestions but i dont want this deck to stray towards the old classic WGD build its just not as good

[swawagon]

4  worldgorger dragon  

artifacts
1 black lotus
1 lotus petal
1 mox jet
1 mox sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mana Crypt

enchantments
4 animate dead
3 dance of the dead
1 necromancy

instants
1 ancestrial recall
1 demonic consultation
1 vampiric tutor
1 mystic tutor
2 pact of negation
2 cunning wish
3 whispers of the muse
4 read the runes
4 entomb

sorcery
1 demonic tutor
4 carefull study
3 Duress

lands
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 polluted delta
3 underground sea
1 Tropical Island

SB
4 Oath of Druids
3 Hellkite Overlord
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 stroke of genius
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rack and Ruin

Forbidden Orchard in the main is little different than what you had for game one. But gives you 4 more SB slots when you switch to the Oath plan game two, and three.

With your build, if you don't find a Dragon with a Careful Study, I suspect winning becomes very difficult. If you also run Bazaar you have even more ways to sculpt your hand, whether that means digging for Dragon and yarding him up, or getting more mana, or animate spells. Bazaar lets you run a few less mana for the same reason. Mox Ruby also pumps your Hellkites (that can be Oathed or Animated) and fast mana for Demonic Tutor or pre Combo Read the Runes, or to cast your animates faster. Demonic Consultation is a little scary as if it rips out your Cunning Wish you can only draw a game, but it is probably good enough that it is worth the risk. The Ruby and Mana Crypt also offer early Oath drops too.

I cut Dark Ritual as they are weak in multiples, a weak top deck here, and only really good when you already have a good hand. Duress is slightly less explosive, but much more resilient. Unless you had a great hand (a Dark Ritual, Black mana source, a Animate Dead, and either Read the Runes or Whispers of the Muse and Entomb - With Duress you still win this game only turn two (with mox help), but you have more knowledge and you have an opportunity to take their plans to disrupt you.), Duress is better. Duress can actually play a little defense too (against other fast combo - buying you time) as this deck has no disruption for opposing decks. Or Duress can rip out Counterspells clearing your path to victory. They give you a little knowledge whether to go for it or not.

[merfolkOTPT]

How does this deck fair against the beats decks of various flavors specifically those running seal of cleansing/primordium?  It seems like those cards are pretty dangerous against you and are starting to be run more in some metas. 

What do you think the best meta for dragon is?

[shroomy2dope]

i will sleeve up this list and try it for a couple of days. i'll let you know the results . i like sideboard oath. unfortunately answers to both are usally about the same cards. duress is nice i used to play it then i played unmask in its place before i realized unmask isnt as cool as it sounds. losing dark ritual slows my tempo and lowers the probability of a first turn win, which is a fearsome edge, but i'll try it and let you know . i really appreciate the input.

[shroomy2dope]

How does this deck fair against the beats decks of various flavors specifically those running seal of cleansing/primordium?  It seems like those cards are pretty dangerous against you and are starting to be run more in some metas. 

What do you think the best meta for dragon is?

beats usally are just a mild annoyance seals just slow me down a couple of turns and beats isnt usually quick enough to kill me. i sometimes wind up reanimating their creatures and using their own effects agianst them until i wish for a solution or they tap them selves too low to stop me which creature players often do.   
 the best meta game for WGD is probably small beat decks, combos like dredge and oath and heavy artifact like welder and stax. too much blue can do me in FOW,and first turn mana drain sucks misdirection is no big deal by then i have a counter. i win quite a bit in heavy counter enviroments because most people arn't sure what to counter.  most players that know the cards in the deck  wont counter the reanimate spell because they realize how many copies their are. most people wait and counter the kill, but by then i allready have two free counters. some people even counter my draw engine realizing they probably waited to long to try and stop me but not realizing they justed ended the match in a draw. the worst match up for me has always been U/W control i can never get my foot in the door every answer for them is cheap and effective against WGD before i can play a spell akroma done took half my life.
 i suppose the best meta for WGD is an unprepared one.

[swawagon]

Actually Dragon and Ichorid have more similar hate than Oath and Dragon (which is why you transform into Oath). Most people attack Dragon by attacking Dragon's graveyard (like Ichorid): Leyline of the Void, Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progenitus - or Pithing Needle on Bazaar. Fortunately Oath doesn't care about their graveyard at all.

But yes obviously Seal of Cleansing or Quasali Pridemage are both bad against both Dragon and Oath - those are not what you want to see. But those cards are good against Time Vault too, that's just the nature of Vintage.

[shroomy2dope]

right now ethersworn canonist and first turn leyline are the problems

im going like this off your list
-1 necromancy
-1 mana crypt
-1 mox ruby
-2 pact of negation

+3 chain of vapor
+1 duress
+1 volcanic island

sideboard
-1 chain
-1 rack and ruin
-1 recall
-3 tormods crypt




+3 red elemental blast
+2 pyro blast
+1 whispers of the muse(incase i hit a wish before a draw spell)

[swawagon]

Cannonist wouldn't be much of an issue if you have Bazaar in play and use Oona over Cunning Wish as your kill. You'd only need an Animate to resolve, bringing Dragon back many times (adding tons of mana) and Oona eventually - it's only one spell.

[shroomy2dope]

it would still prevent my playing duress/pact to ensure animate goes through and if i have to chain of vapor anything other than ethersworn it still sucks. but ill work in an Oona as the best solution.

  we had a 32 man double elimination tournament locally over the weekend this deck took second mana drain took first it beat out quite a bit of decent decks . it played well against a green white lock down even after it sided in root maze groundseal and an extra ethersworn, in addition to all its main deck hate.

 anyways i asked the three other top finalists to play with me again a few rounds after i totally  re-constructed the deck. the results were awsome playing all three decks twice i came to 4wins two losses one by drain and one by tezz  ill post the list tomorrow its quite unconventional for wgd