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Author Topic: [Free Article] M10 Success and Vintage Revival  (Read 8422 times)
voltron00x
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« on: August 30, 2009, 11:31:10 pm »

Sort of a "grab bag" article this week about a few different topics:

1 - Taking a look at the positive steps Wizards has taken so far in 2009

2 - Reviewing the rapidly changing Vintage metagame, and why it is finally changing (and, why that's good!)

3 - Some more thoughts on Vintage tournaments, Proxy vs Sanctioned, and where we go from here

4 - My current list for Oath, which I'm pretty happy with... note that I post a corrected sideboard in the SCG forums (and check for the TO report that should go up tomorrow for the N.Y.S.E. II list for the top 8 from the event; I should have a brief tournament report up soon as well)

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/17953_The_Long_Winding_Road_M10_Success_and_Vintage_Revival.html

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« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2009, 08:00:52 pm »

I was hoping that middle section would provoke some debate - apparently no one has a problem with my insinuation that we're a community of crybabies?  Wink

Let me expand on what I stated in the article... prior to getting back into Vintage, I spent two years playing PTQ formats and Standard; these formats rotate and have considerable metagame adjustments, often staggaringly fast adjustments.  Extended in particular has a meta that moves VERY quickly through PTQ seasons.  This past Extended season is a great example. Elves dominates Pro Tour: Berlin; Faeries rises to put it in check at Worlds and quickly establishes itself as the top deck, as the blue control deck usually does.  Isn't it interesting that Blue/black artifact control decks have dominated the past two Extended seasons, and Blue/black control dominated TSP block season while Blue/black Faeries dominated Lorwyn block?  It isn't just Vintage that's dominated by this color configuration.  End aside. 

TEPS and Affinity shine for brief moments to attack unprepared Faeries decks - powerful linear decks that are easily checked by a prepared SB.  G/B midrange performs for a few weeks, but is only really well-positioned against Faeries.  Graveyard hate keeps it in check.  Finally Zoo muscles its way into the meta; the powerful one-drops pose a legit threat to Faeries.  Because Zoo isn't linear, it requires actual adjustments from Faeries, which reopens the way for decks like Elves, as Elves isn't hosed by one specific card but rather by a prepared field in general.  At the end of the season, the triangle of Faeries / Zoo / Elves establishes itself, with outliers like G/B and Slide that prey on some specific parts of the triangle but are weak to some 2nd-tier strategies themselves.

Consider Standard this summer... Elves combo wins some Nationals, and Kithkin gets a lot of buzz and some juice from Honor of the Pure, and within a week, the whole field shifts to 5C Control.  Gradually the field opens back up, and decks like RDW / Blightning begin to see more play (as they have game against 5C).  As 5C decreases in meta % and changes focus away from the sweepers that put Elves combo in check, Elves begins to reemerge.

Why didn't this happen with Tezzeret earlier in 2009?

First, Tezzeret isn't a linear deck.  Simple sideboard additions aren't sufficient to keep it in check.  Second, the type of decks that are effective against Tezzeret aren't generally or historically popular with the vast majority of Vintage players.  Ichorid is the perfect example of this trend; 5C Stax is another good example.  If the Vintage meta shifted like that of Extended, Standard, or Block, we would've seen a fast and immediate shift whereby Ichorid surged in number.  Ichorid is a natural predator for unprepared Tezzeret, which runs countermagic that is ineffective against Ichorid, and lacks Wastelands to destroy Bazaar or creatures to break Bridges.  A surge in Ichorid would have necessitated adjustments by Tezzeret that would have weakened it in other match-ups - TPS for example - leading to a natural meta adjustment.  5C Stax has also shown itself to be a predator for Tezzeret when configured correctly.  Finally, the ICBM open showed that certain Null Rod strategies - including BUG Fish and G/W(/b) aggro - could beat unprepared Tezzeret.

So what's happened since TFK's restriction?  It isn't simply that TFK significantly weakened Tezzeret, because lists w/o TFK won some major events when the card was still unrestricted.  However, draw engines used in place of TFK certainly pushed Tezz players out of their comfort zone.  Further, the Steel City Vault deck's creation was a direct result of the rise of Null Rod strategies two weeks prior at the ICBM event.  Rather than create an adapted Tezzeret list - also shown to be possible, as this year's Vintage Champs list would prove - SCV attacks on a different axis completely by using Grudge, Welder, and Draw 7s in place of a draw engine like TFK, Remora, Bob, or Thoughtcast.  Interestingly, nothing prevented the development of SCV prior to the Steel City tournament, except that the deck wasn't really "necessary" - necessity being the mother of invention.

Before TFK was restricted, I didn't believe that its restriction was in any way necessary, because I didn't think it did enough to Tezz and I felt it would hammer the final nail into the coffin of every other blue deck.  Although I still think TFK's restriction only mildly weakened Tezz, experimentation with other decks due to the restriction of TFK seems to have finally forced the Vintage meta to adjust.

Now, we see Tezz lists having to adapt to Null Rod, playing cards that weaken them against a varied field - which is exactly what we see in top 8s since July.  We're seeing top 8s with Tezz, SCV, 5C Stax, various Shop builds like B/R and Shop Aggro, TPS and Drain Tendrils, Ichorid (both Mana and Fatestitcher) and various Null Rod strategies including Fish (notably BUG Fish and Noble Fish), and G/W and G/W/B decks - and other decks like Oath and Elves can also do well against a varied field.

Or, all of that could be wrong - restricting Thirst broke Tezz and now its just "a deck" among many viable decks.

Thoughts?
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« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2009, 08:04:33 pm »

I haven't had a chance to read this yet, but I'll be getting to it tomorrow.  I'll get back to you with what I think Smile

Peace,

-Troy
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« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2009, 09:08:26 pm »

I think that the "slow meta" issue is intrinsically linked to the proxy issue.  For example lets say you are a competitive player looking to make a splash in vintage, so you drop some cash and put together tez with 15 proxies. However lets say you show up at the tournament and you get a sick read on the meta and determine that tez is hated out and you want to play 5cstax. In another format its reasonable to switch decks at the last minute as card availability is generally not an issue in a mature format. But in vintage... good luck.  I would also say that far more vintage players(maybe even a majority of vintage regulars) have a "pet" deck that they will play unless something catastrophic happens(restriction etc). People often talk about the "cost of getting into vintage" but what about the cost of switching decks? If anything this is an arguement FOR proxies? as a format without them is stunted in its ability to adapt by card availabity alone.  What if right now just10 people wanted to switch to 0 proxy stax because the meta had shifted.... are there 40 mishras workshops available for sale right now in the US?

 I think your analysis of what happened after the time vault restoration is spot on, most of the best players who were drain players in the first place picked up Tez, people who should have played dredge didn't, because they didn't want to be "that guy" and the combo players vanished, because TPS couldnt beat tez. Instead of a healthy rock, paper, scissors meta, we had Rock Vs Scissors(with whatever rock hate it could find) and paper unplayed because it "isnt fun"
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« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2009, 06:52:01 am »

From the article:
Quote
I think it’s time that we take a step back and look at the surprising run Wizards has been on in 2009.


Yeah, WotC has done a tremendous job in the last year, IMHO.  Shards was a successful block, IMO.  The courage they showed in doing an all-gold set in Reborn tells me they are willing to still take design risks.  The awesome flavor in M10 coupled with the powerful-but-not-broken card pool it created is a real credit to that design team.  And making regeneration relevant...it's about time.

From the article:
Quote
Budget decks continue to evolve, with G/W doing very well, and Red/Green still a viable alternative (Ryan Glackin piloted a R/G/B beats deck to a 5-2 record at Vintage Champs, for example).

I think XG Beatz is here to stay.  It's an unpowered alternative to Fish that has a faster clock.  The next year will tell, but I personally believe we've added another aggro archetype to the Vintage format, and that's exciting.

From the article:
Quote
This is not the stagnant Vintage scene we saw over the first half of 2009.


Let's talk in two months about that.  Right now Vintage is in flux because Tez was redefining itself.  I expect the July-August metagame reports to show more diversity.  The September-October report, though, may not.

From the article:
Quote
Why all the concern for Vintage, then, if the high price of power suggests high demand for it? Certainly attendance at American events has been hit or miss this year. I think some of us have underplayed the role Tezzeret played in cutting back on Vintage tournament attendance.

Well, yeah, that and the 2008 restrictions that raped everybody's deck.  Go back to the forum and blog posts for 2007-2008, and you'll see that tournament attendance was not a concern at all.

Quote
I was hoping that middle section would provoke some debate - apparently no one has a problem with my insinuation that we're a community of crybabies?

I think people just wany MOAR all the time.  More cards off the restricted list.  More Vintage viable cards in new sets.  More torunaments.  And that's just fine.  Nothing really crybaby-ish about it.  And I didn't take your article that way.

Quote
Further, the Steel City Vault deck's creation was a direct result of the rise of Null Rod strategies two weeks prior at the ICBM event.  Rather than create an adapted Tezzeret list - also shown to be possible, as this year's Vintage Champs list would prove - SCV attacks on a different axis completely by using Grudge, Welder, and Draw 7s in place of a draw engine like TFK, Remora, Bob, or Thoughtcast.  Interestingly, nothing prevented the development of SCV prior to the Steel City tournament, except that the deck wasn't really "necessary" - necessity being the mother of invention.

I'd want to wait a couple of months before declaring this deck an answer to anything.  Remora-Meditate decks received a lot of fanfair when they were first introduce and have almost entirely vanished after that brief moment in the sun.  I'm not saying this will happen to SCV.  I'm just saying it's too soon to make any kind of judgement like that.

Good article Smile

Peace,

-Troy
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« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2009, 09:32:44 am »

Several other Tez predators remain sickly underplayed.  Monomax recently piloted our Goblins build to a 3rd place finish at a 38-man tourney.  There's a lot of historical stigma against Goblins that is now mostly undeserved.  New technology and recent printings allow for a real clock behind a turn 2 Jester's Cap.  Historical choices like Ringleader are nowhere near making the cut in current builds.  Of course, we seem to be the only ones exploring the strategy.

Goblins is also historically a natural predator against Stax builds and it runs Fanatics + 5x Strip + a sideboard for bye-ing against Ichorid.  The aggro matchup is more nuanced, but generally in our favor on the back of cards like Wort and Goblin Chieftain.  Chieftain's printing actually allowed the paradigm switch from War Chiefs and sb Goblin King/Mad Auntie/Dralnu's Crusade to Bannerets and Chieftain.  The result is a *much* faster deck that can afford to run its pump effect main with less reliance on Lackeys.


Steve has been arguing recently that investment in cards leads to investment in the format, but he leaves out that investment in cards tends to lock players into particular archetype.  And I think that's why we're crybabies.  As was said above, we have pet decks and whine when they don't win.
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« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2009, 09:54:25 am »

Several other Tez predators remain sickly underplayed.  Monomax recently piloted our Goblins build to a 3rd place finish at a 38-man tourney.  There's a lot of historical stigma against Goblins that is now mostly undeserved.  New technology and recent printings allow for a real clock behind a turn 2 Jester's Cap.  Historical choices like Ringleader are nowhere near making the cut in current builds.  Of course, we seem to be the only ones exploring the strategy.

Goblins is also historically a natural predator against Stax builds and it runs Fanatics + 5x Strip + a sideboard for bye-ing against Ichorid.  The aggro matchup is more nuanced, but generally in our favor on the back of cards like Wort and Goblin Chieftain.  Chieftain's printing actually allowed the paradigm switch from War Chiefs and sb Goblin King/Mad Auntie/Dralnu's Crusade to Bannerets and Chieftain.  The result is a *much* faster deck that can afford to run its pump effect main with less reliance on Lackeys.


Steve has been arguing recently that investment in cards leads to investment in the format, but he leaves out that investment in cards tends to lock players into particular archetype.  And I think that's why we're crybabies.  As was said above, we have pet decks and whine when they don't win.

Hmm - is there an updated Vintage Goblins list floating around the internet somewhere?  I'm kind of interested in what that might look like... I do have a fondness for Goblins.

Also, the investment piece is interesting.  I guess some of it has to do with the pillars and which one you are targeting when you do your initial acquisition into the format - for example, switching from Slaver to Tezz to Drain Tendrils doesn't require much extra investment, but switching from Slaver to 5C Stax, or Fish to Ichorid, requires considerable investment if one is using no proxies.  A byproduct of no proxies is that many people will be locked into one pillar, and when that pillar is weak in the meta, attendance may dip.  Certainly the weakness of Shops pushed many local players out of the meta at Blue Bell - I'm talking between 5-10 dedicated Shop Aggro players that just literally disappeared when everyone started playing Tezz.

I suppose that's why I found Oath so appealing originally and why I'm working on finishing it as no-proxy first, now that I own Bazaars... it doesn't run Drains OR Shops and can be built without Time Vault, Timetwister, Grim Tutor, or Imperial Seal, so I'm not really locking myself into a specific archetype / pillar. 
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« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2009, 10:16:14 am »

I suppose that's why I found Oath so appealing originally and why I'm working on finishing it as no-proxy first, now that I own Bazaars... it doesn't run Drains OR Shops and can be built without Time Vault, Timetwister, Grim Tutor, or Imperial Seal, so I'm not really locking myself into a specific archetype / pillar. 
I own Oath - P9 and that kept me locked into the archetype for years and years as it moved from Extended to Vintage.  I stopped playing it when I started handing it to my fiancee as a linear deck (and it was circa Champions' release) for tourneys.  She liked beating people down with Akroma. *shrug*  There's actually a story where she missed the top8 of a Mox tourney at RIW by conceding to JDizzle with a lethal Ancient Hydra on the board because she didn't realize it could target players.

Right now, I'm starting infi proxy tournaments in Chicago and still debating how few proxies I want to eventually get down to.  I saw the meta in St. Louis 'stagnate' to the point where I could reliably win tourneys with Doomsday on the back nobody ever changing from a Bazaar/Duress control strategy since that's what they owned.  Gro is probably the least expensive 'dominant' deck in recent memory since it was so chock full of commons and *still* not a soul there played it.

I'm thinking that a 30 proxy meta still requires players to buy a fair number of staples regardless of what they play.  45 cards at vintage common/uncommon prices is probably $10-20.  With something like Stax or Tez, that number is likely much higher given the high rare count.

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« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2009, 08:54:59 pm »

I agree with you that we need to have a diversity in proxy numbers.  To be honest, though, it is unlikely that the vintage community would ever be able to sustain more than one zero proxy tournament per region per year.  Many players simply will not show up if they are forced into playing a budget deck.  On the other hand, I agree that there should sometimes be incentive to at least own some power, so it might be good to have a range from 5 to 15 proxy tournaments.  In order to play big name decks like Tezz or Shops, something like a 7 proxy tournament would put a little bit of pressure on players to obtain a piece of power, or at least to keep it if won.

Also, I do expect Tezz to still be the best deck after a month or two.  I ascribe myself to meadbert's theory.  Switching to Confidant as a draw engine only makes the deck even more resilient to the general field; we were starting to see this change even before Thirst's restriction.  What I think has happened is that we upset what would have turned out to be the following balance: Int/AK Tezz beats Thirst Tezz, Thirst Tezz beats Confidant Tezz, Confidant Tezz beats Aggro/shops, Aggro/shops beats Int/AK Tezz.  

In our testing, Int/AK just wasn't cutting it anymore against modern Fish decks, and was too slow versus certain Shop builds.  Now the only option is to default to Confidant builds, which seem to have a very strong match up against these decks, due in part to Bob's cheap cost and efficiency, as well as having many more slots available to deal with hate.  The bottom line is that today's Fish decks and Shops probably would have actually had a better match up against the Thirst builds.  I suppose only time will tell.
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