[Zendikar Card Discussion] Mindbreak Trap

[Harlequin]

Exile any number of target spells.

The spell copies are still spells.  Thus they can be targeted.  When you resolve storm it goes like this:

Storm Trigger
Tendrils (The Card)

then the storm trigger resoleves and you get:

Tendril (a copy)
Tendril (a copy)
Tendril (a copy)
Tendril (a copy)
Tendril (a copy)
Tendrils (The Card)

Now both players get priority.  So you throw out your trap, and target all the copies and the card.  And at that point - take it away Admiral Akbar...

[Stormanimagus]

Another card that counters Mind's Desire (and Tendrils!)

No played card has been able to counter Mind's Desire.  I've seen Mind's Desire's stifled/trickbinded, only to have Yawgmoth's Will flipped.  Mind's Desire is so beyond good, it's like an unglued card.  It's amazing that we now have a way to counter it for free.  

Wait, does this stop Storm from actually Triggering because you exile the card? So, no copies?

-Storm

No, you let the trigger for storm resolve putting the copies into the stack and then you cast it removing the original+copies... seems like nix got good?

But this only exiles one spell so wouldn't the copies still be on the stack? Your explanation didn't make sense the way you phrased it.

-Storm

No, read the card, exiles ANY NUMBER of target spells.... so, the original spell + all the copies if you want.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94714&d=1252038014

Wow, I totally spaced that out. Wow, that makes the card a lot better. You can now live the dream and force your opponent to go all-in only to see their entire turn fizzle in a blaze of glorious failure. Wow, this card is indeed going to be THE hoser of hosers against Storm Combo *sad face- please unrestrict Brainstorm and give TPS a fighting chance?*

-Storm

[Smmenen]

This card could be very good against Drain decks, as much as Storm decks, though.   Free way to counter Yawg Will or turn one Tinker. 

[NodFreak]

Another card that counters Mind's Desire (and Tendrils!)

No played card has been able to counter Mind's Desire.  I've seen Mind's Desire's stifled/trickbinded, only to have Yawgmoth's Will flipped.  Mind's Desire is so beyond good, it's like an unglued card.  It's amazing that we now have a way to counter it for free.  

Wait, does this stop Storm from actually Triggering because you exile the card? So, no copies?

-Storm

No, you let the trigger for storm resolve putting the copies into the stack and then you cast it removing the original+copies... seems like nix got good?

But this only exiles one spell so wouldn't the copies still be on the stack? Your explanation didn't make sense the way you phrased it.

-Storm

No, read the card, exiles ANY NUMBER of target spells.... so, the original spell + all the copies if you want.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94714&d=1252038014

Wow, I totally spaced that out. Wow, that makes the card a lot better. You can now live the dream and force your opponent to go all-in only to see their entire turn fizzle in a blaze of glorious failure. Wow, this card is indeed going to be THE hoser of hosers against Storm Combo *sad face- please unrestrict Brainstorm and give TPS a fighting chance?*

-Storm

Well, you can still face it with Duress, thoughtseize and your own counters.

And if this can get Brainstorm, ponder and other stuff unrestricted, that would be cool.

I could see this as a 1-of reemplacing cards that dont see that much use, like Fact or Fiction.

This reminds me of an inverted Pact of Negation, the former is very good when you are agressive, this is good defending.

[Xyre]

I like this card in Ichorid, since nothing tightens up combo matchups like free counterspells. I could see running this over Chalice of the Void in manaless versions, since both seem to fill the same position (slowing down Moxen-fueled decks), and even if people play around it, they're stuck with 2 spells max per turn, which seems good against pretty much everyone.

[nataz]

except chalice is proactive rather then reactive, important in a deck that empties its hand on turn1/2.

 I like this as a situational free counter in blue based decks. Unlike Pact you don't have to win this turn or lose the game. Unlike FOW or any of the other pitch counters, you don't have to lose a second (or third or forth) card out of your hand. Unlike Daze you don't have to get behind on land.

Its helpful in a counter war. Its blue.

The largest problem is once people realize you have it, it becomes easier to play around, and its drawback isn't controled by you. You opponent has to supply the conditional effect.

[Stormanimagus]

except chalice is proactive rather then reactive, important in a deck that empties its hand on turn1/2.

 I like this as a situational free counter in blue based decks. Unlike Pact you don't have to win this turn or lose the game. Unlike FOW or any of the other pitch counters, you don't have to lose a second (or third or forth) card out of your hand. Unlike Daze you don't have to get behind on land.

Its helpful in a counter war. Its blue.

The largest problem is once people realize you have it, it becomes easier to play around, and its drawback isn't controled by you. You opponent has to supply the conditional effect.

yes, but playing 3 spells in a turn in Vintage is SOOO common that I could see this being MD as a 1-2 of in most Blue based Fish decks (with the other 2-3 in the SB for Storm). I forgot to read the card more carefully. If the spell the opponent is play IS the 3rd spell that one can be countered and is fair game.

This means that the only turn 1 Tinker play that dodges this is:

Land, Mana Crypt, Tinker.

Otherwise that Tinker is going to meet a dismal end. This is HUUUUGE for Fish decks. We now have an answer to turn 1-2 brokenness that doesn't cost a single mana and allows us to save our FoWs to power through that key Null Rod. This card is not being overhyped nor will it be an easy card to answer. It will probably not be MD material, but I expect this to be in the SBs of many MANY blue-based Fish decks and beyond. The brilliance of its fit in Blue-Based Fish decks is that it is usable at all stages of the game.

Early game = stops random brokenness
Turn 2-3 = can pitch it to FoW to resolve Null Rod or MM or Selkie
Turn 4-8 = can hard cast it. 2UU is actually a HUGE difference to 3UU that it costs to hardcast FoW. The exiling function of the card can also be huge for ridding your opponent of fodder for Yawg. Win or, more importantly, Goblin Welder.

This is why I think you can MD 1-2 of these guys in a fish deck. Yeah, they might occasionally be dead, but they do have flexibility and can be pitched to FoW at the end of the day if you need that.

I am ecstatic about this card and I really think it gives Fish a powerful answer that begins to match up with the power of the cards it seeks to stop. Beware of little fishies after this card becomes legal .

-Storm

[bluemage55]

It's a situational free counterspell that can at times generate card advantage and becomes hardcastable later on in the game.  The fact that you might have it, even if you don't, forces an opponent to take additional considerations when taking certain lines of play.

In that respect, it fulfills a function very much like Misdirection, except that instead of discouraging and stopping turn 1 Ancestral it does the same for Tinker and turn 1 combos.  Accordingly, I expect to see this card as a 1-of in many blue decks in the same way that Misd is.  Kudos to WotC for printing a card that is both relevant to Vintage in a positive way and effective at generating sales from Vintage players (mythic rare is the smartest part of this card).

[Xyre]

except chalice is proactive rather then reactive, important in a deck that empties its hand on turn1/2.

 I like this as a situational free counter in blue based decks. Unlike Pact you don't have to win this turn or lose the game. Unlike FOW or any of the other pitch counters, you don't have to lose a second (or third or forth) card out of your hand. Unlike Daze you don't have to get behind on land.

Its helpful in a counter war. Its blue.

The largest problem is once people realize you have it, it becomes easier to play around, and its drawback isn't controled by you. You opponent has to supply the conditional effect.

Yeah, but those are the only turns you're worried about. By the time you've emptied your hand, you should be casting Cabal Therapies and/or winning. Ichorid's design forces your opponent to win before you can get the Therapy engine online, and this card fills in that gap against combo.

Granted, the card isn't as good against cards like Yixlid Jailer and Tormod's Crypt, but considering you're usually on the draw against those cards, Chalice isn't necessarily great either.

[vroman]

I fully expect to play this in stax sideboard

[Shock Wave]

My gut feeling is that this card is very powerful and versatile. If I was a betting man, I would say that this is going to have a profound impact on Vintage. I really feel that this is an excellent design decision, and even if it turns out to be a bust, I applaud Wizards for attempting a card that is both fair, diverse in its possible applications, and encourages decision making and interactivity.

[Metman]

I think the most significant aspect/feature of this card is that it is free.  Therefore it can be played in any deck.  I've felt that Force of Will is the best unrestricted card in the format (duh) and it's casting cost and need to play blue heavily pushes blue over the edge in comparative power.  Despite this card being blue it doesn't require any other blue cards to be played.  They could have made it in any color but essentially it gives the rest of the non-blue decks in the format access to the best unrestricted spell in the format. 

I really hope this cards makes an impact on the format, I believe it will.  I anticipate that it will slow the format down a bit helping to nerf Tinker, YawgWill, and the Storm mechanic which are the most degenerate, flexible, and nearly indestructible win conditions in the format.  Vintage is defined by it's ability to play these three angles (cheat huge spells into play with Tinker, play the biggest card advantage spell in the game from the grave nonetheless with YawgWill, and play a nearly uncounterable win condition with the Storm mechanic) all in the same deck at times.  Vintage is crazy because one would have to play so many hate cards to stop any one of these three aspects let alone all three.  This is the reason I reference the flexibility of these three win conditions, decks can and do run all three.  Mindbreak Trap is a counter to Storm and considerably slows both Tinker and YawgWill indirectly.  It's the only card I can think of that touches on all three. 

The Cascade mechanic is one that has potential to break a format; it's a dumb downed version of Storm yet still considerably strong.  It will take them making one mistake on a card with Cascade to make it bust open a format.  I think it would be arrogant for us to believe that Mindbreak Trap is designed for Vintage because I feel it is designed to shore up the problem Cascade may present in a number of formats now or future.  I'll take it though.  It's a great addition to the vintage card pool. 

[God_Campbell]

Well all I can say is wow...

This is a very versatile card, and have a hunch it will defentley see play, and a card that should be picked up early on when people are debating it's power. And look forward to trying some out as a 1-2 of or perhaps a full set with others in the sb.

[Stamford]

How would this spell interact with Misdirection?

Obviously, if there are more than 1 spell or copy of spell on the stack, this can have more than 1 target and wont be Misdirected, otherwise it can be?

Am I right on that?

[Wagner]

How would this spell interact with Misdirection?

Obviously, if there are more than 1 spell or copy of spell on the stack, this can have more than 1 target and wont be Misdirected, otherwise it can be?

Am I right on that?

Yup, as simple as that.
1 target - ok
more than 1 target - not ok

[pierce]

duress you.

nice card


seriously. do you think storm players won't adapt to it's printing?

[vassago]

My initial thoughts about this card is WOW this is awesome.  However, I do think it is limited in play.  I mean the most relevant reason to run this card is the nutty blow out against tendrils decks, but lets be realistic. How many times is this going to get duress'd out of your hand?  It's hard to say right?  I would bet on it happening a whole lot more than you living the dream.  That is not me talking down the card though, just imagining possible plays involving it.  I honestly think that even if some one has played more than two spells in a turn, they are not all on the stack at one time, at least I would hope not.  On the upside getting some one's Will that way would be unreal.  The more and more I think about this card, the more I see myself running no more than one of this card, if that. 

[smasher]

Fish style decks could play mindcensor in response to a spell. If mindcensor resolves great. If the opponent counters then you play your trap card and counter the original card and the counter. Mindcensor resolves. Seems legit

[Stormanimagus]

The spells don't have to be on the stack at the same time in order to counter one. You all do understand that right? You can counter a Storm spell & all its copies or you can simply counter Yawg Will. if it is at least the 3rd spell played this turn.

-Storm

[LordHomerCat]

Fish style decks could play mindcensor in response to a spell. If mindcensor resolves great. If the opponent counters then you play your trap card and counter the original card and the counter. Mindcensor resolves. Seems legit

Read the card.  Your opponent has to play 3 spells, and by my count your example only has 2.

Unless you have 7 mana, I guess?

[JudasKilled]

I think its very interesting.  I think in a non blue deck that has trouble with storm its very viable.  In a blue deck id rather just run stifle and have it be useful against other effects besides storm.  The only way to prevent duress effects thats any good is as always senseis top with it on the top.  So personally I can see it as a simple 3 of in the board for some non blue decks but thats about it.  It also has potential against rogue garbage like charbelcher or elves.  Hmmm interesting indeed.

[ErkBek]

duress you.

nice card


seriously. do you think storm players won't adapt to it's printing?

you plan to leave in duress against workshops and gw hate?

seriously. storm struggles against disruptive perms followed up by a single counterspell.

[Worldslayer]

Mostly likely, if I'm still playing anything near Drains/FoW, 2-3 of these are going in my 75. Sure, it's another free counter vs. Storm, but its uses in Drain vs. Drain match-ups is just as appealing.

Opponent: Land, Mox, Card you shouldn't let resolve
You: Force of Will
Opponent: (If it's worth resolving, which is probably is) Force back
You: Force of Yu-Gi-Oh

As an aside, it can also stall Yawgmoth's Will turns. No good player is going to cast a Will blind unless it's positively necessary, so you're not going to live the dream of nailing their spells post Will, but it does present an additional counter to add to your wall. If you're already running Drains, Forces, and possibly 1-2 MisD this can set what would've been a Turn 1-3 ridiculous turn back a long ways. Just the fact that they can't make the chain plays of unfair card after unfair card as safely as they used to makes the card immensely appealing. It's not going to single-handedly stop storm or drain or anything on its own, but as an addition to an already solid control suite it fits perfectly.

As an aside, in fish-light metas this seems like a great compliment to Remora-based strategies. They're not currenty in vogue as far as I can tell (since Dark Confidant seems to have, at least currently, won the "most used draw engine around" title) but should the meta shift back to the enchantment this card would be one of my first choices for a new addition. The typical response to Remora finally dying seems to be to "go nuts" and start playing unfairly now that the opponent doesn't draw a card every time you do something, which would activate the trap card. A smart or conservative player may limit to 1-2 spells a turn - at which point a card in your hand, that's costing no mana and would cost no mana to cast, is hampering their development and advancement by X spells a turn over X turns.


QnD: Good for control on control as well as control on combo. The more cards like this, the more Drains are going to have to worry about other Drains instead of running all over everything else.

[MirariKnight]

I agree that it has its uses in the control matchups. However running 4 FoW, 4 Drain, 1-2 MisD and this seems like overkill. This is most likely the replacement for MisD in the 9th counter slot.

[Stamford]

Its 2UU, its easily hardcast-able, more so than 3UU.

It also removes the spells from the game, which means the card is removed as well. This is an important factor.

This card is useful enough to warrant play. Dont just think of playing it via its alternate casting cost, its hardcast cost is reasonably good as well.

If you think about it carefully, its a card that slows down your enemy's development because he will try to play around it if he knows you run it in the deck. By slowing down, he is allowing you to play more mana producing cards like lands, moxen etc. This means that Mindbreak Trap is a rattlesnake card early on that allows it to become able to be casted easily later on.

All in all, a good card designed for Vintage play. Although I feel nerfing Storm is really unnecessary, considering its weak state now.

Its like last year all over again, restricting Gifts Ungiven and unrestricting Gush to nerf Meandeck Gifts and power Gush-based decks to immense heights.

[BruiZar]

I don't think its nerfing storm as much as it is slowing the format down, which I believe is a good thing because it allows for a much broader range of cards to be considered for competitive play.

It weakens Yawgmoth's Will and permanently counters and removes vault/key. The wishes can't return exiled cards due to the recent changes, so no graveyard manipulation tricks. It also slightly weakens draw 7's.

[Troy_Costisick]

duress you.

nice card


seriously. do you think storm players won't adapt to it's printing?

See my first post on the previous page.

It also has potential against rogue garbage like charbelcher or elves.  Hmmm interesting indeed.

And anything running a full suite of SoloMoxenCryptManaVault or Yawg's Will.  I can't wait to see what the 0 cc traps are for the other colors.  It would be nice if the red or green one gives us an answer for Vault/Key.

I don't think its nerfing storm as much as it is slowing the format down, which I believe is a good thing because it allows for a much broader range of cards to be considered for competitive play.

It weakens Yawgmoth's Will and permanently counters and removes vault/key. The wishes can't return exiled cards due to the recent changes, so no graveyard manipulation tricks. It also slightly weakens draw 7's.

Well said.

Peace,

-Troy

[Stamford]

As if the draw7s arent weak enough currently, they have to make them even weaker. -_-

[NodFreak]

counters and removes vault/key. The wishes can't return exiled cards due to the recent changes, so no graveyard manipulation tricks. It also slightly weakens draw 7's.

This is what i like about this.

[MirariKnight]

I can't wait to see what the 0 cc traps are for the other colors.  It would be nice if the red or green one gives us an answer for Vault/Key.

The red/green one should be "If an opponent has taken 3 (2?) or more turns in a row, you may pay 0 instead of it's mana cost. Exile up to 2 target artifacts."


I've always thought that draw 7's (not Jar but Twister, Wheel and definitely Windfall) might be able to be unrestricted, and the printing of this makes it as good a time as any...