Oath of Druids Post-Zendikar

[AmbivalentDuck]

with intuition u need a minimum of 5 mana, a max of 8 to cast pinter after the first oath activation, that also has to be the iona....

1. It's guaranteed to be Iona since there's no longer a Painter in the deck.
2. Yawg Will after Oath basically guarantees Moxen in the grave.
3. With the Vault plan, you can guarantee that you Oath Iona first *and* choose which of the 5 cards are dumped and which are drawn.

[Scyther]

nope.
u said pianter should go maindeck...

and vaultplan.. yeah. its anice card. but i personally would not make a 4 card-combo or something like this out of the deck. to be forced to play vault before oath activation or be forced to play wish/ R/D after activation doesnt seem right to me..

[AmbivalentDuck]

with intuition u need a minimum of 5 mana, a max of 8 to cast pinter after the first oath activation, that also has to be the iona....

1. It's guaranteed to be Iona since there's no longer a Painter in the deck.

nope.
u said pianter should go maindeck...

You're either unintelligent or did not read what I said before replying.

Given: There is 1 Painter and 1 Iona in the deck.
Given: You cast Intuition for Painter and two other (non-Iona) cards removing them from the deck.
Given: 1 - 1 = 0.
Conclusion: It is impossible to find a Painter's Servant in the deck.  Oath will produce the only creature in the deck, Iona.

and vaultplan.. yeah. its anice card. but i personally would not make a 4 card-combo or something like this out of the deck. to be forced to play vault before oath activation or be forced to play wish/ R/D after activation doesnt seem right to me..

It's a one or two card combo (since you only need Oath and a creature) since you produce a hard lock in two turns of Oathing regardless.  It's just convenient to Oath up Iona first.

[Killane]

The thing is that Iona will be able to get there by herself quite often. She's big, evasive, and one of the most disruptive cards ever printed. The R&D's are not "must resolve" in most match-ups. VS Stax, sure Iona won't do much, but vs most decks the point of R&D is to allow her to do her job by herself- the R&D is just icing on the cake as it were.They also help the Tezz matchup, as the hard lock with Painter after Iona is the only way to guarantee they won't win post Oath. They let you interact with Ichorid in a meaningful way game one instead of just letting it Goldfish you and planning on winning two straight post-board. Is it a great game 1? no, but it's a sure sight better than that matchup would be otherwise. And regarding the aforementioned Stax match-up, it's still a very winnable game 1, not as good as double-dragon, but I'd rather have a hugely improved game vs combo and drains, especially since post board you get the same excellent game vs Stax as with the Dragons, plus you can "mid game sideboard" with the R&D to bring the full Dragon plan in.

With regards to Storm and voltron00x commentary, here's a revised list:

Iona Null Oath

Land (17):
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Misty Forest
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Forest
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (10):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
4 Moxen (not pearl)
4 Null Rod

Creatures (1):
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

Enchantments (4):
4 Oath Of Druids

Instants (18):
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Thirst For Knowledge
3 Impulse
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Lim-Dul's vault

3 Negate / Spell Snare / Spell Snip?
4 Force Of Will
1 Misdirection
1 Wipe Away

Sorceries (10):
3 Thoughtseize

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Ponder
1 Time Walk

1 Gaea's Blessing
3 Research / Development

Sideboard
2 Hellkite Overlord
1 Karrthus, Tyrant Of Jund
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Painter's Servant
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Oxidize
4 Leyline Of The Void
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grindstone


changes:

dropped the Remora as the issues with paying the upkeep cost seems to invalidate the goldfish success I had with it

added 3 x impulse to dig for Oath

added maindeck Wipe Away for chalice at 2, in lieu of Echoing Truth

moved mindbreak trap to the sideboard (you can always R&D all three of them in game 1 vs storm if needed)

dropped Gilded Drake from the board (doesn't seem necessary)

changed ancient grudge to Oxidize

issues:

cannot decide on t he 2nd stream Counterspell (Negate, Snare, the new Snip?) to go with the 5 pitch spells.

not sure if the Grindstone backup plan is really good enough to warrant sideboard inclusion over a second needle or oxidize.

[wiley]

Given: There is 1 Painter and 1 Iona in the deck.
Given: You cast Intuition for Painter and two other (non-Iona) cards removing them from the deck.
Given: 1 - 1 = 0.
Conclusion: It is impossible to find a Painter's Servant in the deck.  Oath will produce the only creature in the deck, Iona.

I'm confused.  Are you saying that other than the off chance you draw into a painter and not an Iona, you have to add another step to the oath plan that requires a specific card (intuition)?  If so, are you saying that is better than current plans for oath?

[Scyther]

with intuition u need a minimum of 5 mana, a max of 8 to cast pinter after the first oath activation, that also has to be the iona....

1. It's guaranteed to be Iona since there's no longer a Painter in the deck.

nope.
u said pianter should go maindeck...

You're either unintelligent or did not read what I said before replying.

Given: There is 1 Painter and 1 Iona in the deck.
Given: You cast Intuition for Painter and two other (non-Iona) cards removing them from the deck.
Given: 1 - 1 = 0.
Conclusion: It is impossible to find a Painter's Servant in the deck.  Oath will produce the only creature in the deck, Iona.

and vaultplan.. yeah. its anice card. but i personally would not make a 4 card-combo or something like this out of the deck. to be forced to play vault before oath activation or be forced to play wish/ R/D after activation doesnt seem right to me..

It's a one or two card combo (since you only need Oath and a creature) since you produce a hard lock in two turns of Oathing regardless.  It's just convenient to Oath up Iona first.

yep your right. sorry.

but u really think its smart beeing forced to play certain cards BEFORE the first oath activation?
but you also need the orchard in most cases right?

so orchard+ oath+ intuition/ vault+ having iona not in hand sounds like a really good 2 card combo... ^^

I'm just really confused about this plan. its jut too much afford, for what it does IMO.

[Killane]

I'm just really confused about this plan. its jut too much afford, for what it does IMO.

I second this.

Also, Intuition is, IMHO, not really that good without either Deep Anal or AK, neither of which this kind of build has room for.

[Stormanimagus]

I'm just really confused about this plan. its jut too much afford, for what it does IMO.

I second this.

Also, Intuition is, IMHO, not really that good without either Deep Anal or AK, neither of which this kind of build has room for.

@Killane- What's up with the 1-of Lim-Dul's Vault in your Oath build. You just run Iona MD so shouldn't not need to stack your deck anymore? That slot seems like it could be the 4th Impulse for sure. Also, I like Chain Of Vapor over Wipe Away because you'll most likely be staring down a Chalice @2 if anything and Chain gets around that. You have to consider that Wipe Away may sit in your hand against the match-up you need it for: Shops. If they are running some amount of spheres (good lists should run all 9 I think) then you may be looking at a 3UU costing Wipe Away. Chain of Vapor is more castable under spheres and a more versatile bounce spell overall. I'd recommend it.

-Storm

[Killane]

I'm just really confused about this plan. its jut too much afford, for what it does IMO.

I second this.

Also, Intuition is, IMHO, not really that good without either Deep Anal or AK, neither of which this kind of build has room for.

@Killane- What's up with the 1-of Lim-Dul's Vault in your Oath build. You just run Iona MD so shouldn't not need to stack your deck anymore? That slot seems like it could be the 4th Impulse for sure. Also, I like Chain Of Vapor over Wipe Away because you'll most likely be staring down a Chalice @2 if anything and Chain gets around that. You have to consider that Wipe Away may sit in your hand against the match-up you need it for: Shops. If they are running some amount of spheres (good lists should run all 9 I think) then you may be looking at a 3UU costing Wipe Away. Chain of Vapor is more castable under spheres and a more versatile bounce spell overall. I'd recommend it.

-Storm

The vault can dig 10, 15, 20 cards in if needed to find Oath, and can act as a mini tutor if you "have" to find something right away. I'm not a fan of Chain of Vapor - what happens when there's something you "have" to bounce and you already have you Oath dude on the board (they resolve Platz or something) - then you get your dude in your hand. Wipe away gets around the chalice as well, and yes multiple Spheres can make it rather expensive but it gets the job done, everytime you cast it, and you never have to worry about it coming back at you. I've played it for the last 4 months, and have never had a game when I've regretted the choice.

[Stormanimagus]

I'm just really confused about this plan. its jut too much afford, for what it does IMO.

I second this.

Also, Intuition is, IMHO, not really that good without either Deep Anal or AK, neither of which this kind of build has room for.

@Killane- What's up with the 1-of Lim-Dul's Vault in your Oath build. You just run Iona MD so shouldn't not need to stack your deck anymore? That slot seems like it could be the 4th Impulse for sure. Also, I like Chain Of Vapor over Wipe Away because you'll most likely be staring down a Chalice @2 if anything and Chain gets around that. You have to consider that Wipe Away may sit in your hand against the match-up you need it for: Shops. If they are running some amount of spheres (good lists should run all 9 I think) then you may be looking at a 3UU costing Wipe Away. Chain of Vapor is more castable under spheres and a more versatile bounce spell overall. I'd recommend it.

-Storm

The vault can dig 10, 15, 20 cards in if needed to find Oath, and can act as a mini tutor if you "have" to find something right away. I'm not a fan of Chain of Vapor - what happens when there's somethign you "have" to bounce and you already have you Oath dude on the board (they resolve Platz or something) - then you get your dude in your hand. Wipe away gets aroudn the chalice as well, and yes multiple Sphere's can make it rather expensive but it gets the job done, everytime you cast it, and you never have to worry about it coming back at you. I've played it for the last 4 months, and have never had a game when I've regretted the choice.

I forgot about the ability of the opponent to bounce your guys as well. Hmmm. . . Yeah, forget about that. Chain has a place as a 1-of in TPS, but I think you're right now that I think of it.

-Storm

[AmbivalentDuck]

I'm confused.  Are you saying that other than the off chance you draw into a painter and not an Iona, you have to add another step to the oath plan that requires a specific card (intuition)?  If so, are you saying that is better than current plans for oath?

I'm saying that a tutor that can fetch either of  your combo pieces (Oath and Orchard) can also guarantee hitting Iona first despite having both Iona and Painter main.  With an intelligently crafted Intuition pile, it may also be possible to win on the spot, though I've yet to invent such a pile.  Lim-Dul's Vault is another tutor that both fetches components and allows library manipulation to guarantee that Iona is Oathed first.

So, my message is:
1) Oathing up Painter first isn't much worse than Oathing up a Hellkite
2) Even if you don't somehow control your deck's contents or order, you still have a 50% shot at hitting Iona first.
3) Only hands with Iona require a mull since hardcasting Painter is trivial.
4) A hard lock on your second Oath regardless of your ability to find and resolve a Wish/Research is wise.
5) It's better to run tutors like Intuition and Lim-Dul's Vault to prevent Oathing Painter first than it is to run it in the SB.

[MirariKnight]

I really liked running Intuition in Oath to find Oath/Orchard/Flashback stuff/manipulate what I Oath, but I found that it screwed me just as much as it helped out, at least when tutoring for Oath/Orchard. You get the card you need in your hand, but you leave only 1 of said card in the deck. This leaves you extra vulnerable to Duress/Extirpate/Counters or whatever type of effect would stop you, which is already a major weakness for Oath in my opinion. Lim Dul's seems like it would be better in most every case, despite the card disadvantage.

[Killane]

@amb duck: how is painter first not much worse than Hellkite? Painter is a small, non-evasive dude that dies to virtually every playable removal spell in the format. Every Oath activation makes the next riskier and harder ( since you now have a dude on the board. Hellkite is a hasty, evasive, trampling, huge dude. The hard lock is not always needed- for an extreme example think about how silly maindeck painter is vs elves or parfait. Painter is not something I would ever want to maindeck- even in the match-up where he's most important he's better out of the board via R&D than he is maindeck because you want Iona to shut off their draw and counter first.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Because the first Hellkite *only* does 8 damage.  And it doesn't matter what their life total is until it hits zero.  Also, Hellkite 'dies' to bounce, Painter gets replayed.  Neither dies to Pyroclasm or Darkblast.

The question, btw, is killing in two turns with two Hellkites or Painter + Iona.  Iona is better than a lone Hellkite, a lone Hellkite is mildly better than a Painter if you don't run some blasts main.

[Killane]

What you're saying would be spot on if we were guaranteed the second Oath. Since we're not, even if they don't "just win" the turn after Oath one but instead prevent Oath two, painter is worse than useless, worse because it stopped us from getting Iona.

[Stormanimagus]

What you're saying would be spot on if we were guaranteed the second Oath. Since we're not, even if they don't "just win" the turn after Oath one but instead prevent Oath two, painter is worse than useless, worse because it stopped us from getting Iona.

Yeah, agreed. Wasteland is the bane of an Oath player's existence if the Oath player is trying to get 2 activations out. And Wasteland is played. A LOT.

[MirariKnight]

Painter does 99% of nothing on his own, while Hellkite will win you the game unless he is addressed. I think that's a large difference. You don't HAVE to Oath 2x with Hellkite, you definitely do with Painter.
I tried this same idea with boarding Jailers against dredge. I figured Oathing up Jailer would be a pretty decent play. Not so much. The entire deck is dedicated to resolving the enchantment + meeting it's condition, and when all that results in is a 2/1 (or in this case a 1/3) with a pretty negligible ability on its own, you're not winning. The resources you have to pump into getting Oath out > the strength of Painter.

[Scyther]

so waht actually about waht i mentions some posts before and also voltron mentioned. double dragon + iona?
there are only 3 possibilties:

1. first oath activation: iona - thats what we want
2. first oath activation: dragon, 2nd dragon - would be as good as it is now..
3. first oath activation:  dragon, 2nd: iona - 1 turn slower but its also way safer having iona on the board ...

[AmbivalentDuck]

Painter does 99% of nothing on his own, while Hellkite will win you the game unless he is addressed. I think that's a large difference. You don't HAVE to Oath 2x with Hellkite, you definitely do with Painter.

Wasteland implies Stax or Fish.   Iona herself is less than impressive against Stax.  I'd go as far as saying strictly worse than Kartthus since you need 4 turns of her remaining on the board (and not getting tapped down) to win.  Against fish, you're probably more concerned about your Oath getting blown up than losing Orchard no?  But the second Oath problem stands.

Also, I want to say that I'm not advocating for Iona at all outside of being a sideboard answer to combo.  I think the Dragon plan main is best.  That said, if you're going to run Iona main, I think it still makes sense to 'kill' on the second Oath.  And I've pointed out that it's not that hard to ensure that you get Iona first.

[voltron00x]

Painter does 99% of nothing on his own, while Hellkite will win you the game unless he is addressed. I think that's a large difference. You don't HAVE to Oath 2x with Hellkite, you definitely do with Painter.
I tried this same idea with boarding Jailers against dredge. I figured Oathing up Jailer would be a pretty decent play. Not so much. The entire deck is dedicated to resolving the enchantment + meeting it's condition, and when all that results in is a 2/1 (or in this case a 1/3) with a pretty negligible ability on its own, you're not winning. The resources you have to pump into getting Oath out > the strength of Painter.

I'm surprised you found this to be true.  My old SB plan against Ichorid was 3 Jailer, 2 Crypt, 2 Needle (plus Echoing Truth and Archangel) and i was always very happy with it.  I was typically able to play out a T1 Jailer, Needle, or Crypt, and protect it long enough to Impulse into another hate piece OR just get Oath active and start stacking up Jailers, which was always too much for Ichorid to beat.  We tested it pretty extensively and it performed for me in June when I beat Ichorid at Blue Bell.

In any event I'm happier with the new plan I have, which is 4x Leyline, 2x Crypt, 1x Needle with 2 REBs, 1 E. Truth, and 1 Archangel coming in as well.

[Killane]

@ duck: the hard lock is not always a kill or the ideal plan. You need Iona first everytime for painter to work, and the only way to do that is not to run him maindeck.

[MirariKnight]

I'm surprised you found this to be true.  My old SB plan against Ichorid was 3 Jailer, 2 Crypt, 2 Needle (plus Echoing Truth and Archangel) and i was always very happy with it.  I was typically able to play out a T1 Jailer, Needle, or Crypt, and protect it long enough to Impulse into another hate piece OR just get Oath active and start stacking up Jailers, which was always too much for Ichorid to beat.  We tested it pretty extensively and it performed for me in June when I beat Ichorid at Blue Bell.

In any event I'm happier with the new plan I have, which is 4x Leyline, 2x Crypt, 1x Needle with 2 REBs, 1 E. Truth, and 1 Archangel coming in as well.

Leyline and Crypt were good for me, and they also help the Tendrils matchup which isn't that great.
Archangel is my preferred anti-dredge creature. When I use them I usually do 2 + blessing which is pretty much a hard lock against aggro, but only 1 is really necessary.

[AmbivalentDuck]

You need Iona first everytime for painter to work, and the only way to do that is not to run him maindeck.

Against Tez, there's virtually zero difference between a lone painter and a lone hellkite given that you get a second oath activation.  You don't need Iona first for painter to work, you need Iona first for Painter to do something relevant without her *IF* you don't run red blasts main.

[Killane]

You need Iona first everytime for painter to work, and the only way to do that is not to run him maindeck.

Against Tez, there's virtually zero difference between a lone painter and a lone hellkite given that you get a second oath activation.  You don't need Iona first for painter to work, you need Iona first for Painter to do something relevant without her *IF* you don't run red blasts main.

But what you really need vs Tezz is Iona first to cut off their disruption. My Arguement is not Hellkite is better than painter (even though it is in case you don;t get a seocnd Oath), but rather, Iona FIRST is better than either option.

[MirariKnight]

Against Tez, there's virtually zero difference between a lone painter and a lone hellkite given that you get a second oath activation.  You don't need Iona first for painter to work, you need Iona first for Painter to do something relevant without her *IF* you don't run red blasts main.

I know you said given a second activation, but that's the exact problem: you don't always get a second activation. Putting all your resources into resolving Oath > Painter and then not being able to Oath again is certainly a problem, and it is quite likely to happen. If you Oath up one Hellkite and they deal with Oath, they still have to either win or kill Hellkite pretty quickly.

Lone Hellkite can actually kill them even if you somehow don't Oath again. Swing for 8, swing for 8...that's 16 assuming they don't Force/Fetch/Bob/Vamp and you never pump Hellkite.
Painter: attacks for one...or blocks Bob and lives?

[Killane]

Against Tez, there's virtually zero difference between a lone painter and a lone hellkite given that you get a second oath activation.  You don't need Iona first for painter to work, you need Iona first for Painter to do something relevant without her *IF* you don't run red blasts main.

I know you said given a second activation, but that's the exact problem: you don't always get a second activation. Putting all your resources into resolving Oath > Painter and then not being able to Oath again is certainly a problem, and it is quite likely to happen. If you Oath up one Hellkite and they deal with Oath, they still have to either win or kill Hellkite pretty quickly.

Lone Hellkite can actually kill them even if you somehow don't Oath again. Swing for 8, swing for 8...that's 16 assuming they don't Force/Fetch/Bob/Vamp and you never pump Hellkite.
Painter: attacks for one...or blocks Bob and lives?

And both allow Tezz full access to it's resources for two turns post Oath to find vault and key and deny you any further attack phases. Iona makes what, about 60% of his cards dead? and wins every counterwar, automatically, so they can't resolve anything vs your FoW's and Negates (which upon reflection I think is the best non-pitch counter to include in the list ).

[MirariKnight]

I agree that Iona is better than Hellkite. The comparison was between Hellkite and Painter, and I don't think it's fair to say that Painter = Hellkite in terms of effectiveness on their own.

[Killane]

Of course, I just wanted to be clear that while I think Hellkite>Painter (by several degrees) as a maindeck choice, I don't think either is "correct".                                                                        I'd like to bring up another point. I am concerned about the impact of the new jester's cap for dark ritual mana on Oath.My build does have the R&D's to get things from the side to help, but maybe it needs more control? Or perhaps I should not worry as much. What do we think?

[voltron00x]

Of course, I just wanted to be clear that while I think Hellkite>Painter (by several degrees) as a maindeck choice, I don't think either is "correct".                                                                        I'd like to bring up another point. I am concerned about the impact of the new jester's cap for dark ritual mana on Oath.My build does have the R&D's to get things from the side to help, but maybe it needs more control? Or perhaps I should not worry as much. What do we think?

You're right to be concerned.  My list already plays 4 win cons (2 Hellkite, 1 Karrthus, 1 Time Vault), so chances are I get left with 1 Karrthus or 1 Vault.  Either way its not all that good.  If this card catches on, I'll just add a Helm to my SB and bring in the Helm and the Archangel to go up to 6 win conditions.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

You're right to be concerned.  My list already plays 4 win cons (2 Hellkite, 1 Karrthus, 1 Time Vault), so chances are I get left with 1 Karrthus or 1 Vault.

Vault on its own is not a win condition.  Why would they not just take all three creatures?