Oath of Druids Post-Zendikar

[MirariKnight]

Vault on it's own is a lose con.

I don't think we have to worry about Cap effects any more than we did before. Jester's Cap has always been playable as has Earwig Squad and to a much lesser degree Extract/Bitter Ordeal. While the Rit Cap thing is really good, I don't see any deck playing it that didn't already use that effect, and some decks will continue to use Cap (Stax). I don't think it will overall increase the amount of capping in the metagame, but I could be totally wrong. That type of effect is quite strong right now.

[voltron00x]

You're right to be concerned.  My list already plays 4 win cons (2 Hellkite, 1 Karrthus, 1 Time Vault), so chances are I get left with 1 Karrthus or 1 Vault.

Vault on its own is not a win condition.  Why would they not just take all three creatures?

Maybe if they had as many beers as I'd had when I posted this, they'd also be confused? 

Anyway i'm comfortable enough with the idea of running 5 win cons post-SB if need be (Hellkite, Hellkite, Karrthus, Helm/line, Angel), should this card get popular.

[jaeppel]

Vault on it's own is a lose con.

I don't think we have to worry about Cap effects any more than we did before. Jester's Cap has always been playable as has Earwig Squad and to a much lesser degree Extract/Bitter Ordeal. While the Rit Cap thing is really good, I don't see any deck playing it that didn't already use that effect, and some decks will continue to use Cap (Stax). I don't think it will overall increase the amount of capping in the metagame, but I could be totally wrong. That type of effect is quite strong right now.

I disagree about sadistic sacrement.  This new card is Faster and more card efficient than any existing cap effect.  Three is the key number of cards to hit in many vintage matchups.  vault/tezz/inkwell, dragon/dragon/karrthus, 3x tendrils.  The number of game ending pulls from a cap are enough that, as you mmention, cap and earwig squad see play.  Sacrament has half the cc and hits the same as cap.  Earwig squad is theoretically more value, since for three mana you get a huge body at value, but has the problem that you must run a goblin/rogue deck, which keeps squad on the fringe of the meta.  Extract is faster, and can zap tutor targets/counter topdeck tutors, but no good if you need to hit a 3x wincon.  Bitter ordeal is a fun card, but like squad requires building a marginal deck to support the gravestorm.

Our new cap means swamp, ritual, cap is a threat that essentially ends the game vs many current oath builds before the game even starts.  No need to find some combo to get value, or in the case of cap fast enough mana to play a 6 cc sorcery early enough to matter.  I think that cap effects are starting to push into a certain minimum mass.  sacrement is just the fastest, dirtiest, and simplest kick in the balls ever printed in the 'cap' family.  People will play this, and if one isnt ready to beat caps, one must be ready to lose to them.

[Killane]

After a long day of testing, I am forced to conceed that Iona alone plur R&D is too inconsistant to be worth it. The big issue is drawing her in the opener and being forced to mull. I also found the R&D's to be a win-more, just as some of you have said. That said, maindeck singleton Iona was the best vs Tez and TPS: neither deck could really do anything against her. I tested another build, which I think could be best, which is essentially double dragon with Iona as a third dude and a few different maindeck choices. I'll go through in detail tomorrow, including a gutsy sideboard plan for Tezz and TPS.

[Killane]

Double-posted as the last post was over a day ago and I wanted to call attention to the presence of the new list.

So here it is:

Iona Null Oath

Land (17):
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Misty Forest
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Forest
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (10):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
4 Moxen (not pearl)
4 Null Rod

Creatures (3):
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Hellkite Overlord

Enchantments (4):
4 Oath Of Druids

Instants (18):
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
3 Impulse
1 Intuition
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Lim-Dul's vault

3 Mana Leak
4 Force Of Will
1 Misdirection
1 Wipe Away

Sorceries (10):
4 Thoughtseize

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Ponder
1 Time Walk
1 Gaea's Blessing

Sideboard
1 Karrthus, Tyrant Of Jund
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Oxidize
4 Leyline Of The Void
2 Pithing Needle
1 Echoing Truth


Ok, so must of the choices here are obvious.

I switched out the 4th Impulse for an Intuition for the following reasons:

1. It provides us with another Tutor, this one at Instant speed, for Oath, Orchard, Rod, and FoW.

2. It can find the Dragons and clear them out of the way if you HAVE to get Iona first.  

3. It's still Blue and Pitches to FoW.

I am not 100% sold on this choice, but I've been happy with it.

Mana Leak: in testing I found this old standard to be better than Negate for the current meta. 3 extra mana is difficult for most decks to muster (almost impossible for Ichorid), and I found that it was important in the early game to be able to hit creatures and others with equal efficiency. It also encourages slow play by your opponent, which is good for you since this list, while it can kill on turn two (T1 Orchard, Lotus, Oath x2, T2 respond to the Oath triggers by tapping Orchard, allowing them both to resolve, Dragon x 2, , second Orchard, Lotus Petal or Mox ruby, swing for 19), and will commonly kill / lock out the opponent on turn 3 (T1 Oath with two activations) is not as consistantly fast as the existing triple dragon builds, but it is far more disruptive.

The Sideboard plan vs TPS and Tezz is this: TAKE THE DRAGONS OUT! It know it seems strange, but these matchups are much easier to win if Iona comes up first. Once she's there, they're done- neither deck has sufficient threats if you name Black and Blue, respectively, to matter. While TPS still has Tinker and FoW, you have superior counter-power and will start swinging a turn ahead even if they do manage to resolve a Tinker. Tezz has no counters once Iona is there, so you should be able to stop whatever nonesense they try with the black component of their deck. The problem you run into is if they resolve Tinker before you Oath, especially if they are running Inkwell, but that's nothing new for Oath. If they are runnign anythign but Inkwell, the Pulse takes them out  Iona still improves the match-up- not as much as the R&D plan did when it worked, but this list is more consistant and much better against the general field, including still having Oath's awesome game vs Fish and Stax.

If you don't like that plan, I would take at least one of them out in these matchups. Every turn you don't have Iona is a turn in which they can "just win", regardless of the giant dragon beating on them.

The Echoing Truth in the Board is for Empty the Warrens, Elves!, and Bridge from Below tokens.

Karrthus comes in for Iona in the Stax matchup (obvious), and depending on the verison of the Oath mirror you are playing he may be a better choice there as well.

Having access to a 4th creature will likely be nice in matchups vs folks running Sadistic Ritual as well.

You have Seven cards for the Ichorid match: 4 Leylines, 2 Needles, and the Echoing Truth for the Bridge tokens.

In summation:

Overall when it worked I was happier with the R&D plan, but it didn't work often enough. I liked the ability to bring in the Dragons form the board, the painter for the hard lock, etc... but apart from the very combo-ish matches of TPS and Tezz (which despite it being a Drain control deck feels more like a combo match-up to me), the Singleton Iona was never good enough on her own - R&D became a MUST resolve, and I don;t like the idea of having a second must resolve spell in the list. Maybe a few months ago, when Tezz lists were like 55% of the Metagame, the R&D plan would have been the best choice, but now I think going to a Singelton Iona plan in game 2 is better as much of the field will now be Fish and other "Hate" decks vs Tezz. Sometimes, Iona can shut them down and be unable to race (a sufficiently large Goyf plus a Pridemage for example), leading to a stalemate of sorts or worse a loss post Iona to a swinging 7/8 Goyf.

What do ya'll think?
  

[Scyther]

well, i always loved my playset impulse. =)
on the other hand it should reall be a focus to get around that "i have 30 CC2 spells in my deck" phenomenon. so the intuitions might be not that bad, but i would rather cut the vault instead..

same for the leaks. i definetly will try the new CC1 counterspell first. you play in adition 4 thoughtseize, so the drawback isnt that big IMO.

all in all it doesnt look much different now. But i think we should have a closer look now at the necessity of 4 Null Rod.

ay, and wheres did the archangel in the board go?

[Killane]

what do you think should come out of the board for the Archangel?

[healo]

I really believe, that the most consistent and the least vulnerable way to go for Oath right now could be Iona + Hellkite. The main issue for Oath these days is still not creature combination or count of them. But as this forum is dedicated to Iona, Shield of Emeria, I think she can make it into maindeck as she randomly wins games showing up first.. First Hellkite is just ok, second Iona lock them down completly as you are probably winning the game anyways. First Iona lock them down and second Hellkite finishes it.. And thats the way I would go.. No need to worry about opening hand, because either Iona or Hellkite can win games alone. No need to add cards like Painter, Wishes or other ways to hard lock, or complete the combo.. Just Oath/Orchard and let it win you the game, thats it.. The only addition of Iona probably is, that she will from time to time protect you from losing the game even if you succesfully resolves and activates Oath..

edit: I might concider playing Iona and 2 Hellkites with no blessing and Yawg. Will.. This would give the deck some nasty options..

[healo]

Yeah there are basically two options, Rushing River or Wipe Away.

Rushing River only costs one blue, and can hit two permanents if needed... but I prefer Wipe Away.  The fact that it can't be countered is very relevant, because its the ideal answer to bounce Sphinx of the Steel Wind.

I love Hurkyl's Recall and Echoing Truth but obviously neither help against Chalice on 2.

I think Wipe Away can be countered.. Therefor I would prefer Rushing River, but I might be wrong.

[wox2]

Yeah there are basically two options, Rushing River or Wipe Away.

Rushing River only costs one blue, and can hit two permanents if needed... but I prefer Wipe Away.  The fact that it can't be countered is very relevant, because its the ideal answer to bounce Sphinx of the Steel Wind.

I love Hurkyl's Recall and Echoing Truth but obviously neither help against Chalice on 2.

I think Wipe Away can be countered.. Therefor I would prefer Rushing River, but I might be wrong.

Only two ways to counter Wipe Away I know in competetive tournaments are Counterbalance with CC 3 on top at the time Wipe being casted and Chalice with 3 counters.

[Scyther]

thats correct afaik.

what do you think should come out of the board for the Archangel?

I'm not 100% convinced about the traps.. so i guess to swap one for the archangel might be not that bad.

and i personally would add mor stax hate. like rebuild/ hurkyls or Energy Flux. only 2 oxidize seems a bit slim.

[Killane]

thats correct afaik.

what do you think should come out of the board for the Archangel?

I'm not 100% convinced about the traps.. so i guess to swap one for the archangel might be not that bad.

and i personally would add mor stax hate. like rebuild/ hurkyls or Energy Flux. only 2 oxidize seems a bit slim.

More stax hate = less Ichorid hate or less Storm combo hate, both of which are difficult matches. Alos, Karrthus is for the Stax match-up as well, and if they are big on welder / crucible shennanigans we could bring in the Leylines.

Do we all think the Archangel is still needed with Iona? I really don't know what I would cut for her.

Thinking about cutting the second Hellkite from maindeck and mvoing over one of the Mindbreak Traps. That woudl amke room for the Archangel and the trap coudl be good in several matchups. thoughts?

[Scyther]

I'll try 1 Trap main, but i doubt that it will stay there for long..^^

what about:

4 Leyline Of The Void
2 Pithing Needle
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Oxidize
1 Energy Flux/ Rebuild
1 Extirpate
1 Karrthus, Tyrant Of Jund
1 Empyrial Archangel

looks promising IMO. =)



and arent there better options out against stax than karrthus? its not bad but it really only shines if the other dragon is already out. arent ther any  good, big, evasive creatures that bring some token into play as they CIP or something?

[Valorale]

I like Hurkyl's Recall better than Rebuild for the SB and the other way around if you run it main deck.
I find that if I am in a position where I need to use Rebuild it is often against Staxx, typically theyve thrown down something nasty like sphere, tangle wire etc. In this case I want the cheapest casting cost card to get the job done because mana is usually a problem. On the flip side if running maindeck, rebuild is obviously better since you can dump it if it turns out not to be useful at the time or against whatever your opponent is playing.

Edit| Though that opens you up to a world of pain if theres a chalice on the board @ 2 .. so eh

[Harlequin]

I don't think I would ever run Hurkyls in oath.  Rebuild, Oxidize, or Repeal - that way you have outs to Chalice @2.  Oath should be able to beat Soft locks better than most decks, so Spheres and Tangles are usually not so bad.  Its the Chalice @2 that is backbreaking.

Oh and basically every Oath deck I've built in the past few years has had EE in multiples as well.  Great answer to spheres.

[Stormanimagus]

I don't think I would ever run Hurkyls in oath.  Rebuild, Oxidize, or Repeal - that way you have outs to Chalice @2.  Oath should be able to beat Soft locks better than most decks, so Spheres and Tangles are usually not so bad.  Its the Chalice @2 that is backbreaking.

Oh and basically every Oath deck I've built in the past few years has had EE in multiples as well.  Great answer to spheres.

100% Agreed. Oath needs only resolve 1 card through a sphere effect and that is Oath Of Druids. Chalice prevents you from even playing it so that's the card you need to be able to answer. If a shop play is playing a 9-ball variant I am happy because it is so much easier to just build up moxen and drop an Oath through spheres than it is to find the appropriate bounce for Chalice @2. My preferred way of beating Chalice on 2 is either Oxidize or Shattering Spree (if you can support Red). Those do the job for the cheapest mana cost and Keep the Chalice off the board by destroying it. I'm not a huge fan of Chain Of Vapor because they can drop the Chalice again if you can't find Oath and resolve it the turn after you Chain. Oxidize is more flexible against Shops.

-Storm

[Scyther]

well, thats was the BIG question for me the last few weeks. EE or Null Rod!?
i really dont like chalice without the 2 missing TfK.
so thats a really tough question. obviously they cannot play together..^^
EE can get rid of many many things. moxen, chalice, a loenyl key/ vault, tokens, opposing confidants, oathes.... plus its really nice with the 4 rainbow lands.
but u have to invest more mana than just playing a rod.. thats really tough.


i always loved nrg flux against stax. they cant pay the cost with there workshops, and the moxen dont pay for themselves. CC3 is really moderate IMO but ist also really neckbreaking for the stax player. so its high risk, high reward .

[Killane]

Flux has been good for me as well. I like the s/b above, but it does mean taking the second dragon out of the maindeck and not having the three dragon plan for matches where Iona is less than ideal. I'm just wondering if the Archangel is really needed anymore.

[Scyther]

well, instead of the 4th trap i included an extirpate, which is really nice in many match ups, including TPS. and if u wish u can just cut the MD MisD for the 4th Trap and still play 3 dragon.
the archangel is nearly an autowin against all fish style decks. i would definetly not cut him. but maybe thats just me.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I don't think I would ever run Hurkyls in oath.  Rebuild, Oxidize, or Repeal - that way you have outs to Chalice @2.  Oath should be able to beat Soft locks better than most decks, so Spheres and Tangles are usually not so bad.  Its the Chalice @2 that is backbreaking.

Oh and basically every Oath deck I've built in the past few years has had EE in multiples as well.  Great answer to spheres.

I've like to echo this, especialy the EE

[Scyther]

so... EE >> Null Rod >> Chalice ?

[Killane]

so... EE >> Null Rod >> Chalice ?

I think in the current Meta that Null Rod is just... better. It's brutal vs fast mana and vault and shuts off whole strategies for a measly 2 mana. While EE is nice, and I could see maybe going 3 Null / 1 EE, especially given the decks potential to produce 5 colors of mana if needed, vault is cheeper, faster to get on-line, and more powerful vs DrainControl.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I'd try not to run EE and null rod at the same time if I were you guys. Especialy with out tfk.

[Scyther]

I do play 2 EE at the moment. and am very pleased with them. dunno if null rod is really that important though.

but i also dont know why you guys cut the TfK. It's still an awesome card on its own...

[Valorale]

What do you find to be the best usage for EE / In what situations do they earn their keep?

[vassago]

What do you find to be the best usage for EE / In what situations do they earn their keep?

Nice question.    EE is the shit in non rod environments.  Possibly "oaths" "fuck-no-dont-let-that-resolve-please-for-the-love-of-pancakes-please" type of card. 0 through 2 happens to be the best range of application for cards such as this, which happens to "bone" some rather popular strategies, i.e. fish, oath at the current moment/meta. Unfortunately, I personally think EE sucks major eggs in the moment.  What are you going to do? Sit and wait to "cap" a rod? Do not think so.   Those worried about getting "beat down" do not understand the metaphorical "race", or just aren't playing fire/ice.  Pick your favorite answer, odds are it's appropriate.  Let me know where I am wrong, because I never displace my own error of judgement.  

[Bera]

My EEs only go in when I'm against dredge/stax atm. As an oath player, I'd rather play my EE for two instead of chalice for two. Right Doug?

[vassago]

You know it's awesome when play echoing truth on oath in response to Chalice for two.  IT'S GREAT!  

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

in the mirror, play ee for 0 tap 2x orchard, put token trigger on the stack and blow tokens. Then let orchard token trigger resolve.

[Killane]

in the mirror, play ee for 0 tap 2x orchard, put token trigger on the stack and blow tokens. Then let orchard token trigger resolve.

as nice as this sounds, in the current Meta woudl you not prefer to shut off thier EE for 2 that blows up your Oath, as well as the Time Vaults that are running rampant?