Oath of Druids Post-Zendikar

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

Its a mirror, blowing up the oath in play doesn't really matter unless they're better at finding orchards than you, or they have some sort of trick up their sleeves, then sure. I'd rather be the guy with the thing that gives me the oath activation, opposed to blowing up the oath I could be activating.
As far as time vault is concerened, if they're running it, sure, if they're not, meh.

[Killane]

not sure I understand where you're going? Agree that I don't want to blow up the Oath, thus why I don't want the EE. As far as vault, I was referring to the Tezz match-up, not the mirror, as that is still the top deck in this meta. We have other tools for the mirror.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I think you've missed the fact that I was refering to a usefull trick you can use in the mirror, as mentioned in my original post you quoted and must have missed. My responce was assuming you were responding to my post with the mirror in mind still, and refering to the occasional oath list's that have been showing up packing vault key.

the great part about EE main is that it's very versitile, you can blow up goyfs, bobs, mana, opposing oaths, tokens, chalice at any number (even zero if you have a colorless source in play),or even timevault if you need to. FOR GOOD! Granted a certain game state may arrise in which you need to blow up vault and your oath to keep your self from loosing the game, something traditional blue "removal" won't do all the time(obviously sometime it might time walk you, or you might be able to follow it up with a duress or control spell when they don't have one, but sometimes the just play it again and still kill you), and blowing that EE and losing a 4x and thier restricted time vault and not losing the game right there is gladely a play I will make every chance I get.
I personaly ususaly use it in addition to a bounce spell. Also, if you perfere a more targeted removal to tezz, you can always sb about a more versative removal, like EE, in favor of something like krosan grip or ancient grudge as a kick in tezz's nuts.

[median]

I haven't played oath since brainstorm got restricted, but with the new oath wording, could oath function in a fish deck with planar void and maybe jailer?
just something that came to mind.

[yellow_siomai]

I haven't played oath since brainstorm got restricted, but with the new oath wording, could oath function in a fish deck with planar void and maybe jailer?
just something that came to mind.

What do you mean by "the new Oath wording"? Did it get errata'd?

[MirariKnight]

Yes it got errata. But it doesn't work any differently, it's just clarified.

I played in a small tournament today (playing Tezz) and lost to Iona Oath 2-1. In all three games he had Oath, Mox, Orchard on turn 1 with FoW backup, so he had ridiculous hands, but Iona seemed really good. I did win one when he had her out (Vault/Key + Yawg Will + Empty the Warrens) but other than that any backup for her aside from more damage seemed totally irrelevant, from an opponent's perspective. I believe the deck went on to split the finals.

[healo]

Yes it got errata. But it doesn't work any differently, it's just clarified.

I played in a small tournament today (playing Tezz) and lost to Iona Oath 2-1. In all three games he had Oath, Mox, Orchard on turn 1 with FoW backup, so he had ridiculous hands, but Iona seemed really good. I did win one when he had her out (Vault/Key + Yawg Will + Empty the Warrens) but other than that any backup for her aside from more damage seemed totally irrelevant, from an opponent's perspective. I believe the deck went on to split the finals.

What other decks were in the tournament ? Losing 1-2 with those opening hands of your opponent is not that bad. Did you see some creature other than Iona ?

[MirariKnight]

I know he only used Iona, I'd seen the deck before the tournament. In both of the games I lost, had the creature been anything but Iona, I would have won.

It was 9 people, 4 Tezzeret, 1 Iona, 1 Fish, 1 Bloodghast/Clamp Tendrils, 1 Dark Depths B/G, and one other Bloodghast/Clamp deck

[Killane]

do you think that he would have lost if you had one more turn without Iona, ie if he was running a dragon to back her up and had hit it first? What about the game you won? Would the addition of the dragon have let him kill you in your opinion?

I think you've missed the fact that I was refering to a usefull trick you can use in the mirror, as mentioned in my original post you quoted and must have missed. My responce was assuming you were responding to my post with the mirror in mind still, and refering to the occasional oath list's that have been showing up packing vault key.

the great part about EE main is that it's very versitile, you can blow up goyfs, bobs, mana, opposing oaths, tokens, chalice at any number (even zero if you have a colorless source in play),or even timevault if you need to. FOR GOOD! Granted a certain game state may arrise in which you need to blow up vault and your oath to keep your self from loosing the game, something traditional blue "removal" won't do all the time(obviously sometime it might time walk you, or you might be able to follow it up with a duress or control spell when they don't have one, but sometimes the just play it again and still kill you), and blowing that EE and losing a 4x and thier restricted time vault and not losing the game right there is gladely a play I will make every chance I get.
I personaly ususaly use it in addition to a bounce spell. Also, if you perfere a more targeted removal to tezz, you can always sb about a more versative removal, like EE, in favor of something like krosan grip or ancient grudge as a kick in tezz's nuts.

Ok, maybe this is a broader discussion then Null Rod vs EE.

The list I have currently has 4 slots for this sort of thing maindeck (Null Rod as posted).

After testing, I replaces the MisDir in the main list with a mindbreak trap, and changed the 4 in the board back to Chalice of the Void.

So we have 4 maindeck slots and 4 sideboard slots for "Artifact based Disruption".

the question is, that is the best use fo these slots in the current meta? what offers the most synergies, disruption, and advantage in the most match-ups.

Taking the above comments into account, I think many of the posts in favor of the EE made previously in this thread make alot of sense, once we consider the utility in the mirror and vs Fish.

I am still not convinced as to weather Rod or EE is the better choice vs. Tezz.

What do you think of this:

3 EE
2 CoV
3 Null

with 1 Cov and either the EE of the Null main deck, and 1 CoV and the opposite in the board?

the CoV are GREAT in the TPS match-up, which is less common, but also have utility in the mirror and vs Fish.

The EE are as noted above

Null Rod still seems like a very powerful hoser. which is better vs Tezz might come down to what removal your opponent is running, thier play style, skill, etc.... having access to boht might be nicce, and coudl throw them off as well post- board.

Maybe this is the way to go?

[MirariKnight]

do you think that he would have lost if you had one more turn without Iona, ie if he was running a dragon to back her up and had hit it first? What about the game you won? Would the addition of the dragon have let him kill you in your opinion?

In every game I would have won with one more turn. Every time he got Iona, he had zero hand and I had something stupid like Tinker and the other piece of Vault/Key in one game, and something similarly good in the other. If he played Dragon Oath, I probably would have just let Oath resolve without attempting to counter because my hands were that good...until I couldn't play 4-5 of the cards in them.

Of course this is just 3 games so it doesn't mean anything but Iona is definitely the real deal.

[vroman]

This is the list Lalo is referring to which won our first zendikar tourney, built by me and piloted by lee sharpe

3 trop
2 u sea
2 f strand
2 p delta
1 m rainforest
1 s tarn
2 island
4 orchard
5 mox
1 l petal
1 b lotus
1 m crypt
1 v key
1 t vault
4 oath druid
2 iona angel
1 regrowth
1 reclaim
2 duress
4 spell pierce
4 f will
1 t walk
1 y will
1 a recall
1 m scroll
1 latnam legacy
1 b storm
1 ponder
2 limdul vault
1 gush
1 d tutor
1 v tutor
1 imp seal
1 m tutor
1 mindbreak trap
side
4 d conf
4 tgoyf
3 wasteland
1 stripmine
1 life loam
1 energy flux
1 extirpate

I was clearly trying to dodge enchantment hate/extract effects (atleast two ppl were running sadistic sacrament) w the transformational board. Lee isnt very experienced in T1, so didnt board at all during the tourney. which is actually better for testing purposes bc it means he played more games w Iona.

[Scyther]

no impulse whatsoever?
may i ask why. i always loved them..

[Demonic Attorney]

Vroman,

By my count, you're only running 19 blue cards in the deck.  Has that been a problem in terms of supporting Force?  Also, how have the Regrowth-effects been?  Are they used outside of the post-Oath situation?  What do they usually get?

[vroman]

vamp tutor effect > impulse effect
lim dul cost = impulse cost
qed
lim dul > impulse

is 19 low? thats ~1/3 the deck. if desired 2xduress could easily become 2 more mindbreak which we've found testing very strong.
Im not currently playing gaeas blessing, which in my past, admittedly brief, experience testing oath, has extremely rarely been relevant.
regrowth/reclaim are efficient ways to further abuse post-oath, name blue w iona and guarantee resolving time-volt. they are useful in general to recur ancestral and time-volt pieces, pre-oath.

[Scyther]

vamp tutor effect > impulse effect

well.... lets say.. "OK"..

lim dul cost = impulse cost

not true, but also... "ok"..
but only because of the (nearly) same CC Vault is not better. Not only does it minimal life loss, but also is it card disadvantage. which i think is HUGE in a deck without any draw engine! ...

and tbh honest i really think these regrowth effects are not good in here. chances are u milled the regrowth cards also in the yard and have them in hand early is just awefull.

how worked gush for u gusy?

[vroman]

I dont pretend to be an expert w oath. I wanted to test whether Iona made a qualitative change in the deck's viability. I think the answer to that question is yes. the rest is just a pretty standard shell w a few tweaks based on personal whim. if you dont like limdul, fine, Im not trying to justify every card choice, just making the case for Iona in particular.

that said, one thing you said doesnt make sense:
one of the first plays this or any blue deck will do is tutor for ancestral. so how is having regrowths early game bad?

[healo]

I dont pretend to be an expert w oath. I wanted to test whether Iona made a qualitative change in the deck's viability. I think the answer to that question is yes. the rest is just a pretty standard shell w a few tweaks based on personal whim. if you dont like limdul, fine, Im not trying to justify every card choice, just making the case for Iona in particular.

that said, one thing you said doesnt make sense:
one of the first plays this or any blue deck will do is tutor for ancestral. so how is having regrowths early game bad?

Dou you really think Iona will make a little comeback for Oath ? That would be nice. But as I can see, there was no Stax in the tournament and the deck got some serious luck according to what MirariKnight posted. On the other hand, it seems really crazy - 1st turn Mox, Orchard, Oath, 2nd turn = all your blue spells dead cards, you cant counter, search, draw, nothing..

[meadbert]

I doubt Stax will prevent Oath from being viable.

[healo]

Did the deck win a single match with Vault/Key ? Also, didnt it miss a single Strip/Waste effect ?

[Scyther]

vroman, your right. i didnt want to nitpick or anything.

iona really makes a difference.

the only big question that comes to my mind is:
2 iona main and get a nearly autoloss against stax game1 and bring the dragons game2. or maybe add 1 or 2 dragons main and decrease the chance of oathing up iona in other matchups..?

[brianpk80]

Just noticed this.

For the record, Oath of Druids *has* changed in its functionality as we've known it and now matches the original intent.  For many years, Oracle wrote out the part about it targeting an opponent because it resulted in a rules paradox under modern rules that would prevent it from triggering.  As of September 2009, Oath of Druids and all other Exodus Oaths and Keepers target an opponent.  

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/58a&page=3

This means that Fish can use True Believer to prevent an Oath opponent from Oathing.  

[MirariKnight]

Oath has a good Stax matchup in my experience with the deck; I would be glad to play Stax all day with Oath (admittedly with Hellkite not Iona). All you have to do is resolve a 2 mana enchantment and keep it alive for one turn, and tap a land once. Aside from Ichorid that breaks the "rules" that Stax tries to impose the most of any deck.

[Scyther]

so?

playing iona main and bording dragons in stax >> playing dragon+iona main?

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

This might me a meta thing, but I tend to sb in my shroud dudes vs stack be cause of the amount of times I've had my 8/8 duped. More than once I've had my stax opponant tell me what a huge issue it was for them.

[MirariKnight]

I'm not suggesting not running Iona main, I was just saying that Stax will likely not be a problem for Oath, as Oath is well prepared for that matchup.

[Scyther]

i dont see this is true..

oath plays not very much permanents that could be used for tangl wire/ stack, spheres are backbreaking, iona is prety much dead and in overall it was always a prety tough matchup in my experience..

[the boogie man]

Sure, sphere effects make it difficult to cast anything, but you only need to resolve 1 spell to win. Plus, oath often runs mana denial, which is surprisingly good against stax, sometimes even locking them under their own pieces.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

i dont see this is true..

oath plays not very much permanents that could be used for tangl wire/ stack, spheres are backbreaking, iona is prety much dead and in overall it was always a prety tough matchup in my experience..

I've played A LOT of oath for A LOT of years. One thing I never fear playing is workshops. The is just so little they can do about your win condition out side of smokey, and even less game 2 (as mentioned previously in the thread, I sb out my quicker dudes for dudes they can do less about). Perhaps your not keeping correct openers? Or your sb isn't equipit? playing 3 oxidize really makes their match up pretty brutal. Keep in mind most stax players are going to agressively pursue a lock anyways, and especialy against oath, you've just got to negate/blow up the right pieces.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

The is just so little they can do about your win condition out side of smokey, and even less game 2.

Post-board they have access to Ensnaring Bridge, which is backbreaking.  Though in theory the matchup seems quite favorable, in practice it is often less so.

[Scyther]

i do play 3 oxidize and 1 nrg flux in my board for this MU.

still, iona does'nt do anything preboard  in this MU. given that stax will not be more or less popular than it is now 2 iona should be the way to go right now i guess.

in my first testings i liked 1iona/ 1 dragon though, cause it finishes off 1 turn faster that iona alone. i even thought about playing archangel main. if he only would have haste.. =/

^^