Dredge Questions

[TorpidNinja]

Good afternoon all,

As part of my run to try and learn more about Vintage, I've been practicing with Dredge. The following list is proxied up from  Mark Hornung's 1st place finish (for ref: http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1123):

1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
2 Chain of Vapor
4 Force of Will
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
3 Cephalid Coliseum
3 City of Brass
2 Gemstone Mine

I notice while playing a few things that are probably typical of a first time Dredge player and, thus, the wrong way to play the deck so I thought I'd ask for some evaluation and suggestions:

* I find I aggressively mull for Bazaars and then play goldfish matches by activating Bazaar during my "opponent's" turn. The only exception to this is events in which I have amazing hands which allow me to, for example, Study and Breakthrough on the first turn with plenty of dredgers in hand.
* I almost never have cards in hand save for the beginning of the round. By my second turn I've typically dredged away my Bazaar and Draw Step draws to fill my graveyard.
* I seem to autopilot once I end up with sufficient Bridges and Ichorids in the graveyard.

So, beyond evaluating these actions, am I playing the deck too aggressively? Should I be more discerning about using my Draw Step to activate dredgers? Are the Forces in the deck to prevent early combo and, thus, I should not worry too much about later game 0-card hands? Are there any powerful card interactions that I'm missing or is the deck really this straightforward?

Many thanks.

[Almanomada]

I am not familiar with the force of Will build myself, but I think they are there mainly to combat combo turn 1.  I have played Dredge in every format since Standard and the basic theme once you really start goldfishing FTW turn 2-3 is that you will never have a hand usually when you do go off.  With FoW in hand you can safely hardcast a therapy and possibly have FoW backup over turn 2 in case your opponent didnt do anything turn one.  I actually took blue out of my deck (not completely) and replaced it with red.  This version is faster but then has no defence against a game 1 leyline and of course no FoW.  Personally I like Chains MD but FoW slows the deck down into a control version which I personally dont like.  Below is a version of the deck I created using red for draw power and I opted for Chalices over power pieces also making this a somewhat budget Vintage deck.  I am playing this deck currently on MTGO (w/o zendikar of course) and the red is very consistent turn 2 wins.  It is still very experimental- here is a link to a thread discussing an extended version of the deck  
 http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=38767.msg539303#msg539303   This deck is supposed to be very aggressive -  One thing I have noticed is that you have no need to mulligan for Bazaar IMO because as long as you draw a mana source and a couple draw spells,  then you can still go off turn 2-3.   Since you have Putrid Imps as a discard outlet (which is why i love burning inquiry) the turn 1 imp chuck a dredger and depending on power pieces still play breakthrough, or careful study turn one setting up a turn 2 win.  in the manaless ichorid builds, they run 4 serum powder for free mulliganing because they have to have a bazaar.  The mana version is just better.  The timing to use the bazaar is at the beginning of your own upkeep to set up ichorids and then a dredger for the turn draw.   The deck does tend to autopilot if there is no hate or real threats on the other side of the table.  Once you hit game 2, you have to learn to fight through enemy leylines and tormods crypts or Ixlid jailers.  Chain of vapors, ancient grudges, and contagion are just a sample of SB optiions.  I hope I could help you better understand the deck.   One match I found a game 1 turn 0 leyline of the void against me and I scooped..  The FoW version can fight through the hate much easier although it seems to me a bit slower than the normal ichorid builds. Which could be why it won.  

4 golgari grave troll
4 stinkweed imp
3 golgari thug
4 bridge from bellow
4 narcomoeba
3 dread return
3 cabal therapy
4 Burning Inquiry
3 Goblin Lore
1 Sphinx of Lost truths (zendikar)
1 flame-kin zealot
1 Inkwell Leviathon
1 Fatestitcher
3 ichorid
3 bloodghast (zendikar)
4 Chalice of the void
4 misty rainforest (GU fetch) (zendikar)
1 dryad arbor
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 bazaar of Baghdad
4 Volcanic Islands

[jewfro]

The point of playing a deck like that with mana is that you don't have to mull to bazzar, if you find yourself doing that then think about switching back to a more traditional dredge without mana. Also with mana fatestitcher is amazing.

[Beralt]

Dredging on your upkeep before your card draw is also common, which allows you to put the Ichorid ability on the stack and then remove a Black creature that you may have dredged.

This list is a bit off from most lists, it's innovative in that it plays Force of Will so most are not familiar with it, other lists run more disruption and I think it's a bit more imperative to mulligan into a Bazaar with those lists.  This list can semi-dredge with a large Breakthru or Putrid Imp making it a bit more similar to Legacy lists.

I for one noted that it also forgoes Ancestral, going instead with 4 Careful Study - I am not sure how correct this is, but it does have some merits.

[meadbert]

The point of playing a deck like that with mana is that you don't have to mull to bazzar, if you find yourself doing that then think about switching back to a more traditional dredge without mana. Also with mana fatestitcher is amazing.

Basically there is no such thing as "Manaless Ichorid" right now.

First, all versions of Dredge play mana.
Second it looks like Ichorid may be dropped.

Basically the decision is do you play Serum Powders and mulligan to Bazaar or do you play Careful Study, Breakthrough and Cephalid Coliseum in which case you have alternate routes to victory.

Today if I say Mana Dredge I mean a version with Careful Studies and Breakthroughs.

If I say Manaless Dredge I mean a list with Serum Powders that will probably run Mana anyway.  To avoid this confusion I will try to use Powder Dredge going forward.

Anyway, Fatestitcher is actually better in Powder Dredge because you always have Bazaar.  In Mana Dredge you may not have Bazaar in which case paying  to untap a mana land so you can produce  again is just not THAT good, although you can return several Fatestitchers for Dread Return fodder.

[meatpipeline]

Has anyone tried the incarnations from Judgement?  Anger if playing mountains, Wonder if playing islands, Brawn if playing forests.  It seems to me that adding an anger or two can speed up dredge if you can consistently keep a mountain in play.

-Phil

[Sporkcore]

It seems like most mana lists are running City of Brass and Gemstone Mine as their lands which don't work with the incarnations.

[Almanomada]

Flamekin zealot gives everything haste as a win condition and using dragons breath enchantment makes whatever giant beatstick you return to gain haste as an alternate win.  With my new version using fetches and dual lands, anger would fit but everything already has haste and so it would be redundant.  Great idea though.

[Beralt]

Meatpipeline,

Small aside: As stated above Flame-Kin Zealot can give everything haste and usually it allows attacks for the win right then and there - often times Ichorid can win on turn 3 and won't really have time to find or keep a mountain in play for Anger (and Anger is off color and takes up a card slot).  Wonder adds an extra ability (flying, but no haste), if your attacking with 9 3/3's very rarely will it help to give them flying - there are very few defensive blockers in the format - it of course suffers in addition from wasting a card slot and requiring you to have a Island in play.  Finally Brawn requires Forests and flying is superior to Trample so I won't even go into details on that but suffice it to say that it's not as good as the previous two suggestions and suffers from the same restrictions.

[dangerlinto]

If you are really stuck on this idea, I'd think Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Filth would be the way to go.  Unblockable 2/2s that also let your Bazaar tap for mana as well as providing a black creature to pitch to Ichorid seems much better than any of the other incarnations.

[FAVO!!!!1]

On Ancestral: From my prior playtesting with previous Mana Ichorid lists, Ancestral has ALWAYS been the worse card in the deck. It doesn't keep cards in the graveyard, and is only amazing turn one with the Force of Will lists. And thus, I can see why its been cut.

On no Dread Return into Dude: The concept behind this version is that Dread Return is a win more card. Your wasting slots in your deck that you could be using to protect yourself from hate to force a linear game. Sometimes that is not always the case. There is still the opportunity for your opponent to pull the nuts and just win. EVERY deck in this format is capable of that. Force helps cut these insane plays from blowing you out.

The trade off is the fact that you cannot recklessly dredge like you use to. We all know you need to draw force of will in order to force of will someone. So instead of playing the "turn 2 win" game, your playing the aggro control variant. You only have to dredge maybe 3/4 times to get the sufficient aggro you need. The rest is just drawing the control you need aka Chains, Forces, and Therapies.

Post board is the same way, except you have more targeted hate. Tormod's Crypt was amazing for Mark all day, as it provided the deck a cost efficient answer to the mirror, Welders, and Crucible locks. Wispmare and Chewers are cost efficient ways to get ride of problematic perminates of their respective hate target. And Darkblast is the critter hate of choice provided the fact that not a lot of decks run dudes with bigger toughness than 1 and Darkblast can dredge back.

And the best part is, you don't always need the targeted hate cards. The deck can easily play through hate. In round 5 of the event Mark won, I lost game 2 (winning game 1) against two thresholded Putrid Imps against my Jailer and Trinisphere. He drew no answers that game as well. The deck can play through hate despite the fact that a lot of it exist.

On no Serum Powder: The same rule applies here as it does for Dread Return + dude. Why run an inferior card? Instead of trying to mull into the win, you can just run additional card draw engines that'll help get stuff into your graveyard. That is also why this version plays less dredgers. You don't have to worry about drawing into them, as you have the cards to do it. Sure, sometimes it doesn't get you there, but that happens with Serum Powder dredge as well. Its a risk with the deck that everyone takes. On top of that, these cards help support Force of Will. Sounds like a win-win to me.

The trade off is that you are now more open to counters. Which is why you run Force and Therapy - to try to recover from this off-set.

My opinion: Do I think this is better than a powder dredge variant? No. I think this is worse than powder dredge. You trade your almost guaranteed game 1 win for more consistent draws. Isn't always winning game one a good thing? Again, I know there are some odds of not winning game 1, but the fact is, powder dredge will ALMOST ALWAYS win game 1. If your opponent knows how to play around the deck, you are not gonna get that win.

BUT this version is still a viable deck. You are playing a different game with this deck, and that is the aggro control deck. You still have free dudes, but with control options. And thus, it cannot simply be ignored. If you are gonna pick it up, just remember that you cannot go stupid with your dredging. You do have to actually draw cards once in a while. And bazaar is not the messiah. You got 15 other cards in your deck that can help dredge your way to victory.

[swawagon]

FAVO!!!!1 Please write "you are" - "your" in your context keeps confusing me...

You do have several ideas and I agree with cutting Ancestral in the case of Dredge. But no Dread Return seems a little odd.

[FAVO!!!!1]

FAVO!!!!1 Please write "you are" - "your" in your context keeps confusing me...

You do have several ideas and I agree with cutting Ancestral in the case of Dredge. But no Dread Return seems a little odd.

Sorry about that; I haven't slept in a couple days and this is basically my break time from work. I'll fix it after I make this post.

And I do agree with you on Dread Return. But in the same respect, after testing the deck, I can see where Dread Return is a win-more kind of card. By the time you cast Dread Return, you already have enough Bridges to make any sacrificed Narcomoebas and Ichorids solid. Your opponent already has a clock that he/she has to answer on the board. And keeping your Narcomoebas on the board only makes Stack and various mass removal spells a minor set back.

The only positive Dread Return gives you in these situations is the fact that you instantly lock them out of the game sometimes. There are times where your opponent can draw that Yawgmoth's Will or Gifts Ungiven and just win on the spot. Running Force over Dread Return helps to cut those situations from occurring. I don't have an exact percentage number on this yet, but give me a couple months time, and I'll find it somewhere.

On top of this, most people side out a majority of the Dread Return package games 2/3 anyway, so why play it in the main? Its the same concept I use to build my Tez list, so I don't see why it shouldn't apply here as well.

[Almanomada]

dread return sided out?  in my experience i never got rid of returns.. and they definately make the deck faster.  I just hate control and anything to do with it so FoW in dredge is blasphemy and i will never run it.  of course FoW dredge will lose to non FoW every time IMO. It might get a slightly better matchup vs combo but cuts down its high game one win percentage which is bad considering the hate.

[FAVO!!!!1]

dread return sided out?  in my experience i never got rid of returns.. and they definately make the deck faster.  I just hate control and anything to do with it so FoW in dredge is blasphemy and i will never run it.  of course FoW dredge will lose to non FoW every time IMO. It might get a slightly better matchup vs combo but cuts down its high game one win percentage which is bad considering the hate.

In meadbert's continuous dredge post, he stated that he sides out two dread returns along with the Hypnotist package. I have done the same thing to a couple successful events as well. And yea, Force Dredge will lose to Powder Dredge most of the time just simply cause both decks are running the same clock, but one of them pushes that clock to the limits. But just cause it cuts down on its instant win potential doesn't mean that it can't play through hate. This deck can play through hate as long as you are smart about it. You got plenty of answers in both variants post board.

And just as I have said before, most people side out the Dread Return package in Powder Dredge to make space for control cards. You might not do it, but several people have and it has been successful. Besides, what else are you gonna side out for 10 to 15 cards?

[Almanomada]

Besides, what else are you gonna side out for 10 to 15 cards?

   Good point.  I have been partly successful with the deck -- making prize most of the time but missing top 8 in most bigger events.  Could be my sideboard strategy is off.  My current SB i wanna run is a Zoo variant.  The last time i played the deck was a ptq late 2007 early 2008 because of Army training.  I realize a lot has changed over the last 18 months  .