[New Card Discussion] Lotus Cobra

[wiley]

While probably not very exciting, I could see this allowing a GBR Fish deck to splash some cruel ultimatums pretty easily.  It provides excellent tinker protection and it has uses before tinker too.  It could also make vindicate playable again, maybe.  Versions with full moxen and some number of spirit guides might be able to support this.

There is also the possibility of using ad nauseam to fuel out a big creature rush early on, adding another level to a fish deck as opposed to making a bad storm deck.  I doubt this is possible unless you run a bunch of man lands or genjus.

Without serious deck tweaking though, it will just play out like soly says, which isn't nearly good enough for vintage.

[Almanomada]

I dont think he will make any real splash in vintage unless a deck is created to abuse landfall like oboro/cobra/fast bond/glacial chasm.  Or combo fastbond/oboro/bloodghast/altar for a 35 point demon fire.  I really see this guy being a staple in New Zoo extended with Scythe Tiger eliminating his drawback.

[RecklessEmbermage]

Exciting card indeed.

I'd be hesitant about running a combo deck that relied too heavily on an X/1.

But playing blue control with low-cost permanents, like tarmogoyf and low-cost draw and permission seems very intriguing: You could play your permanents off making your land-drops and always have mana up at the opponent's turn.

Legacy countertop-goyf with snake?

3 sensei's divining top
4 tarmogoyf
4 lotus cobra
4 dark confidant
3 counterbalance

4 brainstorm
4 predict
4 daze
4 force

10 fetchlands
4 wastelands
6 basics/duals

..as a place to start.

This of course isn't the legacy forum. It just occurred to me as the cleanest example of how this could be incorporated in an already working control-shell. Plus: Lotus cobra isn't disruptive, which is probably the biggest shot against it in vintage.

It's good with crucible of worlds too, by the way.

[BruiZar]

Everybody is always mocking the life gain path but the reality is that brainfreeze/stroke/mill decks are non existant.

don't forget about painter grind stone

i totally did

[Grand Inquisitor]

I dont think he will make any real splash in vintage unless a deck is created to abuse landfall

As opposed to a deck that attempts to abuse a 2/1?

So the basic applications of a card like this probably fall into either aggro control abusing tempo, or combo abusing the mana creation.

The problem with the first is that since you need to run more lands, he doesn't really allow better threat density.  Also, since he's most effective turn 2, running moxen will probably require running chalice over null rod or suffering the consequences.  If anything, he will allow more early threats, but this may just mean these decks will over-commit into F/I, board sweepers and the like.

For combo strategies, this basically allows 5 mana turn 2's if you have a mox and a fetch.  Unfortunately, rituals and grim monolith are probably strictly better.  If anything, I could see it working in a turbo-land deck, but those are traditionally slow, synergistic to a fault, and grave dependent.

[vroman]

rujk?

theres no way any deck can spare slots for this. did I seriously see someone casually mention cruel ultimatum as vintage material?

[Akuma]

This card looks terrible for Vintage and Legacy, which is good. I don't have to fork out tons of cash for a set of mythics...

[BruiZar]

It has the casting cost and power of Confidant. It has the same restriction of Dark Confidant (1 land drop per turn, 1 flip per turn). The only difference is that Cobra is mana accelleration and Confidant is card draw and that you can cheat the landfall mechanic with fetch, fastbond and other cards.

If you say this card is terrible, that is like saying Dark Ritual sucks but Ancestral Recall is good. Ritual is a pillar, and thus isn't good in every deck, but it can shine in the right sort of deck. The same is true for Cobra IMO

[Blue Lotus]

Cards>>>>>>>Mana

I'll play around with this card for sure.  Being able to dump your hand in Fish is great.  Also, running more fetchlands will make for better top decks.  I would probably run WGU with Null Rod, Trinisphere, Tinker, and Thorn

But this is a card completely unrelated to confidant. 

[madmanmike25]

I think putting this in a pure land combo deck would be too janky to work.  Too many puzzle pieces.  I can see an Aggro deck with a combo as Plan B making use of this card easily.  Either G/U, or G/B would work.

4 tarmogoyf
4 lotus cobra
4 dark confidant

That IS a good starting point.  With all the new fetchlands Vinelasher Kudzu might even be a good aggro creature, especially when combined with Oboro+fastbond/Exploration.  4-8 Duress effects might buy you enough time to tutor for the backup combo.

Turn1:  Land, Mox, Cobra, ESG, Explor, Fetch, 2 more mana
Turn2:  Shenanigans.

Yeah the important thing is to find out if getting this guy out turn 1, thereby having 4+ mana RELIABLY on the second turn is worth it.

Vintage worthy imo.  But I wouldnt build a deck around him.

[vartemis]

I think RE hit the nail on the head.  Right now I see this best in a fish shell.  It allows you to drop your dudes while still being able to keep your mana open.  Essentially it is a cheaper seedborn muse.  I don't know if it will actually end up here, but that is the most likely place it will show up.

j

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

It has the casting cost and power of Confidant. It has the same restriction of Dark Confidant (1 land drop per turn, 1 flip per turn). The only difference is that Cobra is mana accelleration and Confidant is card draw and that you can cheat the landfall mechanic with fetch, fastbond and other cards.

If you say this card is terrible, that is like saying Dark Ritual sucks but Ancestral Recall is good. Ritual is a pillar, and thus isn't good in every deck, but it can shine in the right sort of deck. The same is true for Cobra IMO

This is the worst comparison I've ever seen. Cobra ISN'T going to do something every turn, only every time you get a land into play. These are two VERY different things. Also, getting extra cards every turn does so much more then mana(hell extra cards can even get you more mana), especially in the long hall. Also, dark ritual enables so many more early plays, often befor your opponant can get a turn, cobra will almost never do this.

I might enjoy this card casually.

[nataz]

Not that I think it will make a huge splash, but what about skullclamp and blood ghast. Fetchlands fuel blood ghast returns and give 3 mana to activate clamp.

[TheShop]

This may be far fetched, but if we are thinking of a build that runs:
4x Enlightened Tutor
2x Vamp+Demo
4x Crop Rotation

Maybe the win conditions could include a mixture of:
Dark Depths
Helix Pinnacle
Door to Nothingness

At least these are all findable with the tutors already included in the deck, even though they do not immediately win the game.

[vassago]

This may be far fetched

No puns intended right? 

[Guli]

I think putting this in a pure land combo deck would be too janky to work.  Too many puzzle pieces.

Yes I agree (even if I was the one pushing it for combo)

I can see why bruizar compared with Dark Confidant. The common factor is the long term investment. They also both swing for 2 which we expect from creatures nowadays. So if the Cobra is going to be used down the road, then the ability will not be used in a single momentum exploding out (combo) but spread out over the turns and capitalizing on the advantage of mana. Basically it is some kind of walking BOP or High Tide. The comparison is more metaphorical than anything else.

You cast the cobra and you enjoy the extra mana as long as he stays alive. Simple as that. A mox will always be superior when it comes to producing extra mana. So what will this new mana producer do? The function is clear (mana) but what will you drop to replace it with this?

theres no way any deck can spare slots for this. did I seriously see someone casually mention cruel ultimatum as vintage material?

Voila

I am not giving up by the way. But as things are right now it looks hard to really find a good place for this snake.

[jaeppel]

I think this cards greatest vintage impact will be trading for multiple fetchlands when you crack it in a draft pack.

This is a really awesome card.  Next season's standard will be defined by this snake.   maybe there will be an uber broken landfall.dec that can make the bridge to vintage.  let the standard players figure out how to break this guy... because they surely will.

[BruiZar]

The most fundamental application of this card is indeed the fact that you can cast spells while keeping mana open for counter magic or forcing through spheres.

@Guli: That was exactly what I meant. Dark Confidant is slow, so is Cobra (Cobra is a bit faster because you can get the investment back the turn it comes into play with a fetch)

I'm gonna try this card out in Legacy Loam.dec and see if I can alter it for vintage by using Cop Rotation and this guy. Cycling lands with the mana you get from making land drops seems pretty useful, especially with loam.

[xouman]

I'm seeing a problem with most opinions, as people is searching an existing deck to fit this card or how to build a deck around this card. I think this card could be best played in a new deck who has this card as a good tool, but not 100% dependable. Imagine Ichorid: ichorid it's not a great card alone (not bad also), but with other cards makes a great deck; it's not 100% dependable tough, but quite useful indeed.

What about a fastbond/exploration deck with heavy draw? A heavy problem in decks with big draw is the great amount of mana to work it, and decks with lots of mana have often problems drawing cards. Maybe a meditate/remora deck would be improved since is very mana-greedy, maybe a grow deck with timetwister+wheel+jar (coatl seems good)... even in an Gb elfball could be great with fastbond and skullclamp/glimpse.

[Guli]

Fastbond is strong no matter what, fastbond is not a specific combo piece. So when you play fastbond it will give you an advantage even if you didn't get to play for example Cobra.

Cobra kinda works like that as well. It is not a truly broken card but it will surely give you an advantage in the long run. When fastbond and cobra actually do get to interact (doesn't have to be a primary goal) it becomes pretty broken. Especially when a third card that has the same characteristics , meaning that it is a solid card but when it touches cobra or fastbond it becomes  more or less broken.

The sum of all three should be game ending though. The whole is more than the sum of the parts (gestalt theory) is a principle that could be implemented with Lotus Cobra. I don't like 3 card combo's but in this case the body parts are nice on their own.

Gush for example is an excellent card that would be nice with both but it isn't that ONE card i am looking for. I need to narrow my search in the database to find the card, if it even exists in the first place. What do I look for? Is my search futile in this case?



greetz

[Tobi]

What do I look for? Is my search futile in this case?

Draw-7s?
Card draw in general?

[zeus-online]

Horn of greed.

[CorwinB]

There are only a couple cards that allow you to bounce a land, of which Trade Routes sounds potentially interesting, as it allows to trade lands for draws. There is of course some potential with Crucible of the World. So Fastbond + Lotus Cobra + Crucible of the World + Trade Routes = 4 cards Yagmoth's Bargain.  

Adding Zuran Orb to the mix, we have a nice recursive engine set up, though, one that can provide infinite draws, mana, and life.

[Guli]

What do I look for? Is my search futile in this case?

Draw-7s?
Card draw in general?

That could become your engine in general, consisting of a bunch of cards. They fall in the same category as Ancestral Recall, Gush etc.

An example is trade routs. It is pretty solid on its own, and with a land like say, City of Traitors, it can generate massive amounts of mana with fastbond. (with cobra it becomes even more mana). You can also take tolarian academy as an example land which will be the key land to work with with your suggestion (considering draw 7's ...)

1x Fastbond
4x Lotus Cobra
1x Trade Routs

5x Tolarian Academy, crop roation

add in draw 7's, acceleration

the good stuff too -> recall, walk, gush, ...

tutors -> demonic, vamp, enlightened, ...

control > Force, daze, ...

Horn of greed.

Looks interesting. The key land changes into oboro i assume? (instead Tolarian). There will be a land part of the combo in all situations but i don't think that is a problem with crop rotation.

[wiley]

While probably not very exciting, I could see this allowing a GBR Fish deck to splash some cruel ultimatums pretty easily.  It provides excellent tinker protection and it has uses before tinker too.  It could also make vindicate playable again, maybe.  Versions with full moxen and some number of spirit guides might be able to support this.

For some reason I was thinking the ultimatums were cmc 5 not 7.  There goes that idea.  It can still make vindicate good, but now the best I can see for this is two cases, it allows for a turn two y. bargain fairly easily and it makes casting necro easier in a deck that just splashes black, and it allows for more open mana on the opponent's turn while still being able to lay down threats on your turn.  It might make for an interesting GUb aggro-control deck.

[nineisnoone]

Might be usable on play.  On draw it just seems slow.  You basically lose your turn 2 (or whatever) to get it back on the next fetch.  You get gains on the 2nd land drop after you play this, but that's too distant to really count.

I think it's good enough to be a decent vintage pet-deck, much like I saw Noble Heirarch builds.  

You don't want Fastbond with this card.  Fastbond is crap without 4x Gush, at least in my opinion.  
You want to play Crucible of Worlds with this card.

1) It's only 3 mana so it's not that bad to hardcast without it.
2) It let's you Waste/Strip their land and STILL "tap" it for mana.  This means you get to break parity.
3) It obviously interacts well with fetch lands.

To interact with, I'd look for low casting cost cards with activated abilities that can take advantage of high amounts of mana.

Compulsion is the first card that comes to mind.

[AmbivalentDuck]

rujk?

theres no way any deck can spare slots for this. did I seriously see someone casually mention cruel ultimatum as vintage material?

Cute thought experiment: every deck *must* include 4 Spellweaver Helix.  Is Cruel Ultimatum now playable?  I say hell no because Time Stretch exists.

[TheShop]

This may be far fetched

No puns intended right?  

Gah, I did that without even thinking about it...lol.

I think the Oboro infinite mana combo is about as good as this gets.  Although, If we start talking about Draw 7's then the deck sounds like it would play like ELVES! in that you would just cycle through your deck a bunch and then cast a storm spell.  The only problem with that is that this requires much more setup.

[pierce]

too fragile for vintage. both darkblast and aven mindcensor see maindeck play, which are both nightmare cards for this deck.

great in extended, possibly in standard. but not gamebreaking here.

[Shock Wave]

If I had to bet, I would place a large sum of money on this card not being good enough for competitive Vintage.

If you are casting this card on turn one, say off a mox, then you would need a threat, a land, and a piece of disruption to ensure your threat resolves. If you are not casting this on turn one, then I fail to see how this poses any relevant threat. For 1G, there are much better cards that you want to resolve in Vintage. Hell, I would want to resolve Sylvan Library more than this thing.