[New Card Discussion] Sadistic Sacrament

[Worldslayer]

I agree with Voltron a few posts above - the decks best set to abuse this card are the u/b builds already in contention rather than Suicide variants. Even in traditional u/b Tezz, 1-2 coming in from the board is a great weapon in the miirror/TPS match-up. Dark Rituals certainly make the card better, but I don't believe that they are the primary backing for it -Lotus, Jet, Petal, and the B/UB lands you fetch anyway make this card solid in any match-up where your manabase isn't under attack. That said, I doubt anything more than a few board slots will change much, as it's not anything different from Jester's Cap. It's a little cheaper, far less recurrable, but overall Vintage has seen it before. Now you just don't need a Drain turn to cast it, so it might see some play.

[Stormanimagus]

I agree with Voltron a few posts above - the decks best set to abuse this card are the u/b builds already in contention rather than Suicide variants. Even in traditional u/b Tezz, 1-2 coming in from the board is a great weapon in the miirror/TPS match-up. Dark Rituals certainly make the card better, but I don't believe that they are the primary backing for it -Lotus, Jet, Petal, and the B/UB lands you fetch anyway make this card solid in any match-up where your manabase isn't under attack. That said, I doubt anything more than a few board slots will change much, as it's not anything different from Jester's Cap. It's a little cheaper, far less recurrable, but overall Vintage has seen it before. Now you just don't need a Drain turn to cast it, so it might see some play.

I hope I get to play you with my Sui-Deck designed to abuse this card cause I think you're dead wrong. I'm just going to say this once: THIS CARD IS NOT JESTER'S CAP!!! It is soo much better because it costs half the mana.

Think about it. When Painter/Grindstone entered the meta it was a niche combo deck at best, but when Vault/Key entered the scene again it was format defining. What was the difference? The mana cost. It costs 6 to play out a painter + Grindstone/Activation. This card costs 3 to Caps 4 + 2 to activate. 3 Mana is huge, especially when Dark Ritual exists.

This card is also really well designed to be abused on turn 1 with Dark Ritual and yet it is hard to abuse for a deck that does NOT run Dark Ritual. This is why I think you're wrong that UB Tezz will run it out of the SB. Why run a card that will come down on turn 3 (turn 2 if you're lucky enough to pull Mox Jet or Lotus Petal and Turn 1 only if you have Lotus) if you are using it to beat Combo? Do you expect combo decks to NOT be able to win by then? The fact is that this card belongs ONLY in decks that run Dark Ritual, hence, Ritual-based Combo and Suicide-Black decks.

Now I think Suicide-Black can BEST abuse it over TPS because it can easily afford the disruptive slots for it to be MD. It doesn't run the overpowered bombs of TPS. TPS is also trying to form a protected win and I think Duress gives it a better bang for its buck than nuking some Win Conditions. That said, I do think some TPS lists could squeeze 1-3 of these into their SB for the appropriate match-ups but I wouldn't call it an auto-include there.

I WOULD call this an auto-include in the Main-Decks of Suicide Black decks in the current meta because those decks really need the boost against fast combo and Tezz and even Oath. Only time will tell and prove me right or wrong, but I really think Worldslayer's and, to a lesser extent, Voltron's evaluation of this card is waaay off.

-Storm

[NicolaeAlmighty]

Blah blah blah blah blah blah

I really don't understand why you waste time, energy, and space on trying to prove yourself right. Build the deck and win with it and you'll win the argument. Otherwise, enjoy rambling on pointlessly while they simply say 'nope- sucks.'

[Stormanimagus]

Blah blah blah blah blah blah

I really don't understand why you waste time, energy, and space on trying to prove yourself right. Build the deck and win with it and you'll win the argument. Otherwise, enjoy rambling on pointlessly while they simply say 'nope- sucks.'

This is a forum for debate. I was debating . But yes, you're right. Only proof is indeed in the pudding.

-Storm

[AmbivalentDuck]

Now I think Suicide-Black can BEST abuse it over TPS because it can easily afford the disruptive slots for it to be MD. It doesn't run the overpowered bombs of TPS. TPS is also trying to form a protected win and I think Duress gives it a better bang for its buck than nuking some Win Conditions. That said, I do think some TPS lists could squeeze 1-3 of these into their SB for the appropriate match-ups but I wouldn't call it an auto-include there.

This is an amazing bomb for ANT since it instantly nerfs Tez and the combo mirror.  That's arguably on par with Necropotence in those matchups.  Certainly better than drawing a Necro on turn 3.

[Miaou]

Like Storm, I see this in a Sui-black shell. However I would be splashing green, not blue:

4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf

4x Null Rod
4x Duress
4x Thoughtseize
4x Seal of Primordium
3x Sadistic Sacrament
3x Diabolic Edict (or maybe Gatekeeper, will have to test)
1x Darkblast
1x Demonic Consultation
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Life from the Loam

4x Dark Ritual
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Emerald
4x B/G Fetch
1x Polluted Delta
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Forest
3x Swamp
3x Bayou
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine

SB (rough lines):
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Yixlid Jailer
4x Putrefy
3x Bitterblossom
1x Umezawa's Jitte

So MD there are 11 cards to hate on Tez (Sadistic Sacrament, Null Rod, Seal). What I am hestitating about is including 1x Yawgmoth's Will and 1x Tendril's instead of the 1x Darkblast and 1x Life From the Loam. The life loss could become a problem if Bitterblossoms come in from the board against aggro. Maybe the 2/3 Flying, Lifelink, Deathtouch vampire for 1BB could be played instead of Edicts/Gatekeeper?

Anyways, as some are saying, results will prove what works and what doesn't

[Worldslayer]

Think about it. When Painter/Grindstone entered the meta it was a niche combo deck at best, but when Vault/Key entered the scene again it was format defining. What was the difference? The mana cost. It costs 6 to play out a painter + Grindstone/Activation. This card costs 3 to Caps 4 + 2 to activate. 3 Mana is huge, especially when Dark Ritual exists.

This card is also really well designed to be abused on turn 1 with Dark Ritual and yet it is hard to abuse for a deck that does NOT run Dark Ritual. This is why I think you're wrong that UB Tezz will run it out of the SB. Why run a card that will come down on turn 3 (turn 2 if you're lucky enough to pull Mox Jet or Lotus Petal and Turn 1 only if you have Lotus) if you are using it to beat Combo? Do you expect combo decks to NOT be able to win by then? The fact is that this card belongs ONLY in decks that run Dark Ritual, hence, Ritual-based Combo and Suicide-Black decks.

-Storm

Saying "it only costs half the mana" is completely ignoring the context of the decks the two cards (Cap and Sacrament) are in. While yours is indeed half the cost and supported by Dark Ritual, they run an equal number of relevant rituals, four more moxes, an extra petal (occasionally), and ring/crypt/vault. Yours is cheaper, but overall backed by up to half the fast mana. They will probably see activation on roughly the same turns on average, have a nearly identical effect, and are good against the same decks - it isn't anything we haven't seen before, different decks simply have access to it. STAX lists have been seen running Caps and I have no doubt Sui will be seen running Sacrament. The difference is that when you don't live the dream and turn 1 Rit -> Sacrament -> Remove all wins -> Win, STAX is still a tier 1-1.5 deck and Sui isn't. This is my primary reasoning for saying it would be better in something like U/B Tezz, TPS, etc... out of the sideboard - when Sacrament doesn't hit, you have Tier 1 to rely upon, and don't have 4 MD dead slots vs. a good percentage of the meta since they're sitting in the board.

[SadDubs]

I have tested sacrament in a mono black sui deck, and vs combo and control, it just wins games. period. Trun one duress, into turn two hymn, duress, or thoughtseize, to strip their counters, into trun 3 sacrament is literally gg. Vs aggro, it takes out their goyfs, and vs stax, it takes out their titan, trisk and karn, making it much harder for them to actually win. I haven't tested it against ichorid yet, but it seems to have potential against it too.

[Juzam_Jim]

I agree.
This card actually makes mono black suicide (or atleast  almost mono black) playable, although not that competative.
I've always loved playing suicide and I'm currently making up some lists and playtesting a bit.

How does your list look like?

The list I've been testing looks like this:

Creatures:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Phyrexian Negator

Disruption:
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
3 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Extirpate
4 Null Rod

Draw/tutor:
1 Necropotence
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation

Mana:
4 Dark Ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mana Crypt
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
3 Swamp

It's just a pretty simple list, but Mana Crypt is a mistake - it should be Lotus Petal instead.

Things I want to try out:

1) Adding blue for Time Walk + Ancestral Recall (probably in place of Demonic Consultation and Extirpate or Necropotence) and maybe a Mox Sapphire instead of Mana Crypt which actually doesn't really help.
2) An additional win condition in Tendrils + Yawgmoth's Will added to the list.

[JudasKilled]

I think it will see more play as a TPS mirror match SB card then anything else.  Honestly TPS seems best able to abuse it against Tezz or the mirror.

We don't expect dissertation-quality writing here, but please at least try to follow some of the rules of English grammar when posting.  -DA

[Juzam_Jim]

I've been paytesting my aforementioned list quite a bit the last couple of days (except -1 Necropotence, -1 Demonic Consultation, -1 Mana Vault, +1 Ancestral Recall, +1 Time Walk, +1 Mox Sapphire and some minor changes to the mana base) and I'm actually quite surprised as to how powerful the deck is. I'm not claiming it will se a lot of play, but it's a fun build that's quite competative.

I've played against a numerous different builds, and here are my thoughts (note: we played without SB in all games):

1) Against a GWB fish build, running Aven Mindcensor, Gaddock Teeg, Qasali Pridemage, Goyf, Dark Confidant etc: 4-1 win

This was actually a matchup I had feared, as Negator usually aren't that good against Fish builds, and there's a lot of "dead" cards in the deck: Null Rod, Duress. However, I ended up winning 4 og 5 games. Sadistic Sacrament and Hymn to Tourach were awesome in this matchup. I mixed between taking his Goyfs (mainly) and his Dark Confidants. Once his Goyfs were gone from the deck, he had no chance competing against Negator and my Goyfs and with some card advantage due to Hymn and Confidant he never really got close to winning.
His only win were when I mulled to 4 and had to keep a mediocre hand.

2) Against TPS: 3-2 win

This was a matchup I had expected this deck to do very well against, and as it turned out, it did.
Basically I dropped too many bombs for him to handle and once Sadistic Sacrament resolved, he scooped which happened in 2 games. He won both games he started, though, and in both games I never really got started with the discarding.

3) Against Tezz: 2-3 loss

I never expected to do well, and it was hard to do anything against this deck. He kept bouncing and countering and finally resolving his combo pieces. I won one match after resolving a Sadistic Sacrament and another just beating down with a turn 1 Negator.

Then I've played a couple of matches against builds like Landstill and Goblins, and those haven't been a problem at all. Goblins can't handle Goyf and Negator and Hymn often does a good job. The Landstill build was one with Phyrexian Dreadnought and Stifle, and I lost one match where I mulled to 4 on the draw and he resolved a turn 2 Dreadnought after topdecking a Stifle after which I just conceded.

As mentioned, it's quite powerful and really fun to play with.

Some notes:

- The deck can quite quickly run out of gas if your Confidants are killed or countered, which can be a problem. The deck doesn't really have any major "bombs" to dig for so a good, fast start is almost always required.
- Something like Bitterblossom might be pretty good in the sideboard for the Fish and Stax matchups. Other than that, I don't really know what to side in, but I'm thinking about Krosan Grip as an option against both Stax and Tezz builds.

Have anyone else been testing the card out?

[tito del monte]

@juzam_jim
Much as I love Negator, it feels like his day has passed - there's just too many decks playing actual creatures in Vintage these days. If you're adding blue, maybe something like Dimir Cutpurse could help with both gas and disruption. Another card I've wondered about in sui black, especially if you're running such heavy discard is Nyxathid - with less raw card drawing in the format now, he might work out ok.

[Stormanimagus]

@juzam_jim
Much as I love Negator, it feels like his day has passed - there's just too many decks playing actual creatures in Vintage these days. If you're adding blue, maybe something like Dimir Cutpurse could help with both gas and disruption. Another card I've wondered about in sui black, especially if you're running such heavy discard is Nyxathid - with less raw card drawing in the format now, he might work out ok.

I've thought a bit about Nyxathid myself, but there could be complications with the card unless you are also stocked high on Hymn To Tourach.

I feel like Hymn is one of those cards that could actually work extremely well in conjunction with Sacrament. Think about the following plays:

Turn 1: Land, Ritual --> Duress, Hymn
Turn 2: Ritual --> Sacrament

or even if you didn't have the Duress you could just hope they don't have FoW and go:

Turn 1: Land, Ritual --> Sacrament
Turn 2: Hymn

A Resolved Sacrament should be GG against many Tezz and TPS builds but it can also be good when resolved early against Stax and followed by Hymn.


Aight, back to Nyxathid. The problem I'm having with running him is that he demands slots for Hymn and I'm just not sure the deck has those slots. If auto-includes are:

12 Lands that add black and 5 Waste/Strip
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
4 Dark Confidant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress/Thoughtseize
4 Sadistic Sacrament
4 Null Rod
1 Necropotence (I think this too good to ever omit personally)

That's already 40 cards and there are other powerful tutors that are probably auto includes as well:

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation

Now we have 43 cards. If we are going to run a tutor package and also have rituals why not have an alternate Win Condition?

1 Tendrils Of Agony
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Because even as an overcosted Regrowth Will is just nuts.

This brings us to 45 cards. 15 slots left. Now I suppose these slots are flexible but one needs to ask where the weakness of this deck are overall and where the weaknesses of the deck lie in certain match-ups.

I'm of the opinion that an overall weakness of the deck is overall power and tempo. Why not splash blue? Blue can easily make your Wills better as well as fix things for Confidant draws and draw you answers more quickly. If we assume that is the way to go we are adding:

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Time Walk

and making 2-3 Swamps into Underground Seas keeping the Fetch count at at least 5 total.

This brings us to 49 cards. Ok. 11 slots left. Now the real playing around can begin.

Ok, what other weakness does this deck have in a particular match-up? Well Tezz and TPS look pretty golden if we are coupling Discard elements with Sacrament, but we do need 8 Discard Spells I think. Now here's where I have a tiny problem with Hymn. Hymn is a turn 2 play very often and we need more turn 1 plays. I'm tempted to say that Cabal Therapy is the way to go as it can up the Storm count from the GY, but I'm not sure. Here are the candidates for Discard Spells 5-8:

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtsieze
4 Hymn To Tourach

If we choose any one of those options we are now up to 53 cards. And we still have Stax and Fish to worry about as well as the occasional Tinker-->Robot problem.

Now I DO like Gatekeeper Of Malakir for answering Tinker--> Robot because it can also put some pressure on the opponent and is never completely dead (as it can be a bear) and it can also take out part of a Fish army as well. I'd run the full compliment for Consistency:

4 Gatekeeper Of Malakir

That gives us 57 cards. Now if we want to beat Shops we'll need something that can hurt that matchup but that might also give more oompf against Fish. I'm not 100% sold on this idea, but I like running Bitterblossom and then 3 Jitte out of the SB (for Fish):

3 Bitterblossom

So we have 60 cards now and I think I've covered all the bases. Now, certainly this list could be adjusted, but I think it is folly to run to many 2-3 of's in a deck of this type. Just like a Stax deck we are a tightly oiled machine that is looking for Consistency above all else with a touch of raw power as well (evident in cards like Ancestral, Confidant, and Will). I think you should be running 4-of a roleplaying card and just make sure to cover all the roles you think need to be covered. Here's my list at the moment:

Sadistic Suicide-Black

Land (17):
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
4 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Cabal Pit

Artifacts (6):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
4 Null Rod

Creatures (8):
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper Of Malakir

Instants (8):
4 Dark Ritual
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Vampiric Tutor

Sorceries (17):
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Tendrils Of Agony
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Ponder
1 Time Walk
4 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Yawgmoth’s Will

Enchantments (4):
3 Bitterblossom
1 Necropotence

SB
3 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Darkblast
4 Leyline Of The Void
3 Pithing Needle
1 Gate To Phyrexia
2 Smother

Now I realize that you could drop from this list:

1 Ancestral
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Time Walk
1 Yawg Will
1 Tendrils

And just go the Mono-black beats route, but that is still only 6 slots freed up (perhaps 7 if you went to 3 Gatekeeper). I suppose if you wanted to try out Nyxathid you could go:

- 1 Ancestral
- 1 Brainstorm
- 1 Ponder
- 1 Time Walk
- 1 Yawg Will
- 1 Tendrils
- 1 Gatekeeper

+4 Hymn To Tourach
+3 Nyxathid

You would then have a discard Suite of:

4 Duress/Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn To Tourach

as well as 4 Sadistic Sacrament to strip their library and make their top-decks bad or completely worthless.

This might be an interesting direction to take the deck and would certainly make it a more Sui-Black oriented deck. I do get a bit nervous about having 0 Tendrils in a deck that runs 3 Bitterblossom, 5 Fetch, and 4 Confidant (and possibly some number of Thoughtsieze) but I suppose it isn't called SUICIDE black for nothing.

-Storm

[AmbivalentDuck]

As there any argument *against* the BB 2/1 first-striking counter remover?  He seems great vs Tezzeret (who you'll leave in, taking Will, Vault, and tinker robot), and can additionally combo with Dark Depths to give you a devastating answer to aggro and stax.

Instead of Bitterblossom and blue, maybe consider Tarmogoyfs and Crop Rotation.  This also gives us fun toys like Seal of Primordium in the sb.  Maybe cut Tendrils for Crucible of Worlds as a way to counteract staxy card advantage engines and to keep Tez locked down.

[Stormanimagus]

As there any argument *against* the BB 2/1 first-striking counter remover?  He seems great vs Tezzeret (who you'll leave in, taking Will, Vault, and tinker robot), and can additionally combo with Dark Depths to give you a devastating answer to aggro and stax.

Instead of Bitterblossom and blue, maybe consider Tarmogoyfs and Crop Rotation.  This also gives us fun toys like Seal of Primordium in the sb.  Maybe cut Tendrils for Crucible of Worlds as a way to counteract staxy card advantage engines and to keep Tez locked down.

I'm not sure Goyf would be needed except for in the Fish match-up and Bitterblossom will probably get the job done. I dunno. Goyf just seems anti-synergistic in a 2 color deck with Minimal Moxen. I also think that normally you'll put yourself wayyyy ahead with Discard/Sacrament and will not need a card to blow out the opponent (i.e- Tarmogoyf falls into this category as would the Dark Depths guy)

I think Vampire Hexmage is a sort of "Win More" card that is pretty aweful if you can't find a Dark Depths quickly and keep it on the board.

I'm still up in the air on Goyf, and, in turn, Green. I'm not sure you need it here. Something like Nyxathid or even Tendrils could fill the finisher role and would not require splash so I'd just as soon not run an extra color and make the deck more inconsistent.

-Storm

[AmbivalentDuck]

You're already running blue, switching blue to green introduces no new vulnerabilities.

I have a ton of experience with a 1B/2B effect identical to Sadistic Sacrament except that it comes with a 5/3 butt.  Let me assure you that you're losing to Fish and Stax with the current build.  I strongly recommend a source of bigger butts (since Bitterblossom is unreliable against ubiquitous sweepers and Tabernacle).  You can go with a single enormous butt or just Goyfs.  Either way, you want to make the most of your attack step against Stax and with Tabernacle + brown stuff, it'll be rough.

[Stormanimagus]

You're already running blue, switching blue to green introduces no new vulnerabilities.

I have a ton of experience with a 1B/2B effect identical to Sadistic Sacrament except that it comes with a 5/3 butt.  Let me assure you that you're losing to Fish and Stax with the current build.  I strongly recommend a source of bigger butts (since Bitterblossom is unreliable against ubiquitous sweepers and Tabernacle).  You can go with a single enormous butt or just Goyfs.  Either way, you want to make the most of your attack step against Stax and with Tabernacle + brown stuff, it'll be rough.

I get that, but what is the BEST way to go? Is Tarmogoyf really going to be that good? Could Nyxathid + more Discard be better than splashing Green?

[Juzam_Jim]

@juzam_jim
Much as I love Negator, it feels like his day has passed - there's just too many decks playing actual creatures in Vintage these days. If you're adding blue, maybe something like Dimir Cutpurse could help with both gas and disruption. Another card I've wondered about in sui black, especially if you're running such heavy discard is Nyxathid - with less raw card drawing in the format now, he might work out ok.

I will definately be testing out Dimir Cutpurse, but atm I really like the clock Negator provides.

@stormanimagus:

Like your build. It's a bit (well a lot) different than mine, seeing that you are heading more towards a combo deck.

[Miaou]

I have been testing the Green splash for Tarmogoyfs and Seal of Primordium, and I really like it so far. I am using the build I posted above but with:
-1 Life From the Loam
-1 Darkblast
-1 Swamp
for:
+1 Yawgmoth's Will
+1 Tendrils of Agony
+1 Necropotence

Most of my testing has been against Tezz (with Bobs). With Null Rod, Sacrement and Seal, I almost never get comboed out on. However the losses I take come from early tinkers, so I may need additionnal answers to it (Edict loses quite a bit of value when they have Inkwell + Bob on the board...).
The Seals also give me game against shops game one.

I have not tested against fish, yet but with 4 Putrefy, 3 Bitterblossom, 1 Jitte and the Jailers (plus the Goyfs + Edicts MD), it should make for some interesting games.

[Lurker101]

I really really like this card and believe that it deserves vintage playability but I don't think it warrants people to build new decks around it. Bitter Ordeal is IMO a better card that has seen little to no play and is very synergistic with other vintage staples (anything that sacrifices or destroys) and has a broader range (it only requires 1 colored mana but still has a CMC of 3 so you can play it with 1 ritual) and is easily capable of taking out more than 3 cards as long as it has the proper support (which is useful against decks like dredge, fish, and stax). Bitter Ordeal is also uncounterable (aside from trap/stifle like effects). I see Bitter Ordeal as a better card to build around and Sadistic Sacrament to be a better sideboard card for existing ritual decks. It's actually pretty easy to get gravestorm of 3+with  the amount of vintage permanents that go to the grave through sacrifice or other means (fetches, waste/strip, certain ultility creatures, and some artifacts)
P.S. The proper support for a large Bitter Ideal is a fairly flexible range of cards: Greater Gargadon (which doubles as a beater), Pernicious Deed (which can clear out alot of Fish-y type creatures on the battlefield fairly easily on its own and build big gravestorm), Pox, Smallpox (that's already a gravestorm of 3 usually and can get rid of Oath creatures and Inky if your opponent is already ahead with threats on the table), and Arcbound Ravager (this is far fetched but you could build a ravager ordeal deck).  I'm basically saying that in the right deck Bitter Ordeal is quite a bit more versatile than Sadistic Sacrament. A deck built around Ordeal can already remove the 2-3 win conditions that Tezz, Oath, and TPS have while possibly still keeping good game against fish or other aggro and dredge.

[Stormanimagus]

You're already running blue, switching blue to green introduces no new vulnerabilities.

I have a ton of experience with a 1B/2B effect identical to Sadistic Sacrament except that it comes with a 5/3 butt.  Let me assure you that you're losing to Fish and Stax with the current build.  I strongly recommend a source of bigger butts (since Bitterblossom is unreliable against ubiquitous sweepers and Tabernacle).  You can go with a single enormous butt or just Goyfs.  Either way, you want to make the most of your attack step against Stax and with Tabernacle + brown stuff, it'll be rough.

I was just testing a version of the deck that I might play this weekend (so unfortunately no Zendikar goodies yet) and I was running both Goyfs and Blue and, while it does seem solid at times I don't feel it fits the aggressive nature of the deck. I have found that, in running 3 Goyf and 2 Negator I basically ALWAYS want to see Negator over Goyf in my opening 7 EXCEPT against Fish. Damn Fish! Why must you exist? In all seriousness though, do you think that a SB plan of Bitterblossoms + Jitte + some number of Smother won't get the job done against Fish? Be honest. I really think that this deck could be just B/u with Blossoms in the SB and Negators in the MD (as I think Tezz is more played than Stax & Fish). This would also open up more design space to include some hymns in the MD and perhaps even have those Negators be Nyxathids. Is Nyxathid a viable answer as a big butt to Tarmogoyf in a deck sporting Rituals?

See, I realize that Tarmogoyf is probably the most efficient butt you can have, but in a deck sporting rituals I think there might be some more synergistic card choices. I certainly think that, once this deck has the ability to use Sadistic Sacrament (i.e- one Zendikar becomes legal) the need for Goyf will diminish even more as you'll basically be winning the game against everything EXCEPT fish and stax if it resolves and then your Win Condition won't have to be efficient. Heck, you might even be able to just win off Confidant or Bitterblossom at that point.

I havn't really had a chance to test Bitterblossom in action so I don't really know how it'd fair. It seems to me like it would be quite good against shops and maybe marginal against Fish, but the use against Fish seems tough to gauge. With Jitte could it be enough?

-Storm

[Guli]

Storm, I have read a couple comments of you about Tarmogoyf. If you think you don't need him, then use something else. I wonder if you have some sense of obligation to run Tarmogoyf? It is just a card with ups and downs. Sure it has helped aggro a lot, and even served other archetypes. But he is not an auto include in every form of aggro control even if he is WORTH the splash. Other cards might also be worth the splash... Negator is a worthy clock as well and you don't even NEED a splash. We have evolved a lot since 2007. I feel overwhelmed. So many choices, so many bears, utility. And still no choice is really better or worse than others. It is a matter of taste. Fish is an archetype that is most affected by the CHOICE a pilot has because it is the archetype that lives and dies by the meta changes. There will never be a perfect fish deck that will be something like drain.tezz for example. Fish doesn't close holes, it takes advantage of them.

Anyway, beside the fact that I am a bit overwhelmed I am also very excited by the new set, Zendikar. We can start designing and testing again.

[Stormanimagus]

Storm, I have read a couple comments of you about Tarmogoyf. If you think you don't need him, then use something else. I wonder if you have some sense of obligation to run Tarmogoyf? It is just a card with ups and downs. Sure it has helped aggro a lot, and even served other archetypes. But he is not an auto include in every form of aggro control even if he is WORTH the splash. Other cards might also be worth the splash... Negator is a worthy clock as well and you don't even NEED a splash. We have evolved a lot since 2007. I feel overwhelmed. So many choices, so many bears, utility. And still no choice is really better or worse than others. It is a matter of taste. Fish is an archetype that is most affected by the CHOICE a pilot has because it is the archetype that lives and dies by the meta changes. There will never be a perfect fish deck that will be something like drain.tezz for example. Fish doesn't close holes, it takes advantage of them.

Anyway, beside the fact that I am a bit overwhelmed I am also very excited by the new set, Zendikar. We can start designing and testing again.

It's more that I think Sui-Black is a deck with an identity crisis at the moment. I feel Tarmogoyf makes it a more Fishy deck, but it doesn't run lock pieces (Gaddock, Cannonist etc.) nor FoW so it doesn't fit either of those two shells that are already established. What I'm worried about is that the deck may be gearing itself TOO MUCH for Tezz/TPS and too weak against Fish/Stax.

Now there are 3 directions I could see Sui-Black going.

1. Vincent Forino Style deck that runs 2-4 Tendrils and perhaps some Night's Whisper and goes the Mini-Tendrils Route with Confidants.

2. A pure control deck that runs full Rods, Hymns and perhaps a finisher like Negator

3. An Aggro-Fishy style deck with Tarmogoyfs perhaps.

Each choice has distinct weaknesses and perhaps I'm just trying to even out those weaknesses in the best way possible. I think post Zendikar I'll be partial to a combination of 1 and 2 because Sadistic Sacrament just seems too good to pass up. I just wish there was a way to shore up the Fish match-up other than running Goyf. Negator clearly does very little when your opponent runs creatures with a bigger than 1 toughness Butt. I suppose I'll just have to test Bitterblossom in action along with Jitte and see if that does the job understanding that Fish will be a weak match-up.

I realize Tarmogoyf is not an auto-include in a deck that can run it, but I'm just worried that my answers to Fish might be too few. Is Smother a solid enough answer?

-Storm

[Juzam_Jim]

Bitterblossom is awesome against Fish, especially in a deck running Negator.
Once you've taken out their Goyfs with Sadistic Sacrament, the matchup is way easier.

Atleast that's the experience I've had, but it's only against a GWB build. Thinking the BuG will be harder.

[nineisnoone]

Also would like to add that Bitterblossom can block Sphinx of the Steel Wind, as I've heard it's become more and more popular.  I forget how lifelink works (and they did change it) but I'm pretty sure they'll only gain 1 life on the exchange as well.

[Stormanimagus]

Also would like to add that Bitterblossom can block Sphinx of the Steel Wind, as I've heard it's become more and more popular.  I forget how lifelink works (and they did change it) but I'm pretty sure they'll only gain 1 life on the exchange as well.

No, they'd gain 5, but I suppose that is another use of it.

[Guli]

It is a 6/6

Sphinx of the Steel Wind

Lifelink: when the damage is dealt, you gain the life right then.

So if a 1/1 flyer blocks the Sphinx, it receives 6 damage (no trample). I believe that results in a gain of 6 life for the controller of Sphinx of the Steel Wind.

[Miaou]

Storm, I don't see why adding Goyfs all of a sudden makes the deck "fishy". What you are basically doing is cutting Negator for a more efficient beater. If Negator isn't fishy I fail to see why Tarmogoyf is.
Goyf is a beast against Fish, and is substancially better against Tezz than Negator, especially post board if they bring in Pyroclasms.
Also I believe that the extra discard is better off as being something else that can answer top decks. I chose to use Seal of Primordium as a way to shut off the Time Vault combo and be versatile against Stax, however it does little against a top deck Will or Tinker (which is where Sadistic Sacrament would shine).

So basically I don't see the advantage of splashing Blue over Green as the latter gives you a huge answer to a problematic match up (fish), while Blue gives you some draw and Time Walk. Green also answers artifacts very efficiently which shores up the Stax match up.

[AmbivalentDuck]

in running 3 Goyf and 2 Negator I basically ALWAYS want to see Negator over Goyf in my opening 7 EXCEPT against Fish. Damn Fish! Why must you exist? In all seriousness though, do you think that a SB plan of Bitterblossoms + Jitte + some number of Smother won't get the job done against Fish? Be honest. I really think that this deck could be just B/u with Blossoms in the SB and Negators in the MD (as I think Tezz is more played than Stax & Fish). This would also open up more design space to include some hymns in the MD and perhaps even have those Negators be Nyxathids. Is Nyxathid a viable answer as a big butt to Tarmogoyf in a deck sporting Rituals?

Goyf is better because you can drop it after going Ritual -> Sacrament and discovering that your opponent runs more than 4 win conditions.  At that point, Goyf is already a 3/4+.  Negator is horrible against Fish and some combo builds even run maindeck Firespout.

the need for Goyf will diminish even more as you'll basically be winning the game against everything EXCEPT fish and stax if it resolves and then your Win Condition won't have to be efficient. Heck, you might even be able to just win off Confidant or Bitterblossom at that point.

That's the point.  You run the best answer to fish and stax since sacrament already kills drains and combo.  Honestly, anything that doesn't explicitly help you find, cast, or resolve sacrament is win-more against vaults and tendrils.  So, great, you're winning those matchups.  Now kill Fish and Stax.

I havn't really had a chance to test Bitterblossom in action so I don't really know how it'd fair. It seems to me like it would be quite good against shops and maybe marginal against Fish, but the use against Fish seems tough to gauge. With Jitte could it be enough?

Jitte is strong, but your opponent probably runs it too.  Except that they probably also run pridemages to kill yours first.  And getting 5 tokens to block and kill goyf?  Dream on.  Just run your own Goyfs or dedicated hard to address answers to goyf.  Also consider boarding into some variation on Bob-Tendrils.

[Stormanimagus]

in running 3 Goyf and 2 Negator I basically ALWAYS want to see Negator over Goyf in my opening 7 EXCEPT against Fish. Damn Fish! Why must you exist? In all seriousness though, do you think that a SB plan of Bitterblossoms + Jitte + some number of Smother won't get the job done against Fish? Be honest. I really think that this deck could be just B/u with Blossoms in the SB and Negators in the MD (as I think Tezz is more played than Stax & Fish). This would also open up more design space to include some hymns in the MD and perhaps even have those Negators be Nyxathids. Is Nyxathid a viable answer as a big butt to Tarmogoyf in a deck sporting Rituals?

Goyf is better because you can drop it after going Ritual -> Sacrament and discovering that your opponent runs more than 4 win conditions.  At that point, Goyf is already a 3/4+.  Negator is horrible against Fish and some combo builds even run maindeck Firespout.

the need for Goyf will diminish even more as you'll basically be winning the game against everything EXCEPT fish and stax if it resolves and then your Win Condition won't have to be efficient. Heck, you might even be able to just win off Confidant or Bitterblossom at that point.

That's the point.  You run the best answer to fish and stax since sacrament already kills drains and combo.  Honestly, anything that doesn't explicitly help you find, cast, or resolve sacrament is win-more against vaults and tendrils.  So, great, you're winning those matchups.  Now kill Fish and Stax.

I havn't really had a chance to test Bitterblossom in action so I don't really know how it'd fair. It seems to me like it would be quite good against shops and maybe marginal against Fish, but the use against Fish seems tough to gauge. With Jitte could it be enough?

Jitte is strong, but your opponent probably runs it too.  Except that they probably also run pridemages to kill yours first.  And getting 5 tokens to block and kill goyf?  Dream on.  Just run your own Goyfs or dedicated hard to address answers to goyf.  Also consider boarding into some variation on Bob-Tendrils.

The thing about Goyf, is I DO see that it can be useful, but I'd only be splashing for it alone and hurting my consistency vs. Stax on the manabase. Stax really doesn't care about Goyf a whole lot because they are trying to lock you out with infinite Tanglewires + Smokestack and often even run Tabernacle and Ensnaring Bridge from the SB.

I mean, I currently run Goyf as a 3 of in my Selkie-Strike deck cause it's the best aggressive answer I have to opposing Fish decks, but I really think a black-based ritual deck can do better. I agree that Negator is pretty horrible against Fish (though I do like it a lot more than Goyf against Shops and Tezz and I'll explain in a sec). Perhaps your suggestion of Siding into more Tendrils could be of use. Mini-life drains could be a real menace to fish and make your Bitterblossom + Jitte that much more powerful. My problem with Goyf is "what does it actually DO for you against fish?" Short answer?: Block Goyf all day long. That seems like an answer and not a threat, and I don't like running a card as an answer. I'd rather put direct pressure on my opponent and win the game. Goyf doesn't really do that where you need it most because it meets its worst enemy in that match-up: GOYF!!!!

Ok, so now to talk about how Negator is different because I want to quash the incorrect notion that Negator and Goyf are some how in comparable roles in the deck. They are not.

1. Negator's 2B manacost is actually much easier to hit on turn 1 because of 1 Simple card: Dark Ritual.
All you need to get a turn 1 5/5 is  a Ritual/Lotus and a land. Goyf only comes down on turn 1 with a mox and a land or a lotus. Total moxen in the deck = 2 (perhaps 3) and 1 Lotus. The odds of hitting an          early Goyf are, therefore, slimmer.

2. Negator is aggressive and puts your opponent on a quick clock. Goyf is a controlling card that is usually only going to be a 1/2 or 2/3 on turn 2 and perhaps a 3/4 on turn 3 . By turn 4 you may have it to a 4/5 or even 5/6, but, by then it may be too late and your opponent may have already developed a board position to stop it cold (or found removal). Negator gets in there for 10 a lot of times and that is a huge difference. 5 is a magic in magic because it is 20/4 so that's 4 swings with a negator or 3 swings with a Negator + 1 Fetch + 2 swings with Confidant. Goyf is just too slow IMO for an aggressive deck.

To me, the only way Sui-Black becomes a more viable choice to bring to a tourney than TPS or really ANY other Ritual deck is if it goes for the jugular and uses locking controlling cards that never relent and specifically attack something about the opponent's game plan while advancing your game plan. Goyf doesn't do that IMHO. It is probably the best 2-drop creature of all time, but it doesn't fit in every deck and I think it is foolish to just include a card on raw power if its interactions with the deck are weak. Goyf WORKS in Fish and GW aggro because it is the best finisher they can muster and it sits at a convenient mana cost for the curve of those decks. One can easily see in a Selkie deck the opening smooth turns 1-3:

1. Play Trop --> Noble Hierarch (play daze on their turn)
2. Play Tundra --> Null Rod
3. Replay Trop --> Cast Goyf with Spell Pierce back-up.

or even if you have FoW you now don't need that Hierarch to have a similar line of plays. Decks that run FoW can also use Goyf better because they can make the opponent commit to many more resources while chipping away at an accelerated rate every turn with the Goyf. I think BuG fish and Selkie Strike are great homes for Goyf, but I wouldn't even have it as an auto-include in GW beats. I think that RIGHT NOW it is an include in that deck because nothing better has come along, but one guy was successfully running Knight of the Reliquary for a while and perhaps a similar aggressive beats-style dude will be printed in a future set. Goyf is great for the decks that can abuse it because it can win from many different board states and those decks play themselves into many different board states. Sui-Black should not be doing that so much when it is winning. I think Sui-Black should be going for the most devastating plays possible early in the game.

I intend to write an article primer on what I feel the future of Sui-Black might be (with all these new toys) and I fully intend to get a lot of outcry against what I'm saying, but I've been a deck-builder for a long time and I trust my instincts.

Let me offer an analogy on something concrete from a magic-playing friend of mine before I finish here.

My friend plays a Mono-Red Shops list that he's been refining for a LOOONG LOOONG time. It is a very controlling list that runs some cards that are objectively easy to see as less powerful than those run in 5-color Staxs. His deck plays a lot smoother than 5-color Stax and I think is FAAAR FAAR superior to it. How can this be if he is playing "inferior" cards. No Tinker? What? No Ancestral? Blasphemy. No Balance and DT and blah blah blah? How can you possibly win?. The reason he wins is because his deck is a well oiled machine that knows what it's about and executes. PLAIN. AND. SIMPLE! That is what makes a deck good. Does it execute a game plan that works against a wide majority of the expected field. Does it have powerful plays across the board and not narrow, but broad and expansive answers to the field.

I used to hear a lot of players say that they lost a match because their opponent had too much "splash hate" for their deck, but you have to ask yourself why they had that splash hate in the first place? Perhaps they just designed a really tight and balanced deck.

Anyway, I realize that some of my statements in this post might be controversial, but in my little testing with Sui-Black thus far I've found most of what I'm trying to express to be true.

-Storm