TheManaDrain.com
April 25, 2019, 05:01:15 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 12
  Print  
Author Topic: [Discussion] Goblins  (Read 103436 times)
AmbivalentDuck
Tournament Organizers
Basic User
**
Posts: 2808

Exile Ancestral and turn Tiago sideways.

ambivalentduck ambivalentduck ambivalentduck
View Profile
« on: October 07, 2009, 06:12:43 pm »

The commentary and original decklist are somewhat "historical."  Current build will be maintained below and a list of gobs tourney performances at the bottom of this post.

AmbivalentDuck's most recent gobs list, last updated 8-26-2010
Mana
3 Badlands
3 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire (strongly recommend frequently changing which fetchland is 4-of...whole point is to safely consult for basic mountain via fetch)
1 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire

Creatures
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Goblin Vandal
2 Mogg Fanatic
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Sharshooter
2 Wort, Boggart Auntie
4 Earwig Squad

Spells
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Warren Weirding
2 Jace TMS
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

Sideboard
4 Yixlid Jailer
2 Relic of Progenitus
4 Shattering Spree
2 Mindbreak Trap
3 ???  (I've got Lightning Bolt in the slot right now)









Goblins is probably the single most underplayed deck in vintage since it has historically been horrible.  Recent printings, particularly Goblin Chieftain, allow a faster, more aggressive control deck that stands a chance against other aggro.  In this primer I'll present a current, well-tested, Goblins list along with commentary that defends most card choices.

Creatures:
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
3 Goblin Vandal
4 Frogtosser Banneret
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
2 Goblin Chieftain
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
4 Earwig Squad

Spells:
1 Demonic Consultation
3 Warren Weirding

Mana:
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox ____ (doesn't matter, Emerald bluffs SB cards you don't run)
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
4 Badlands
2 Blood Crypt
4 Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Sb:
4 Crash
1 Shattering Spree
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Null Rod
4 Leyline of the Void

The first comment I need to make is that there are many important differences here from the decks you rightly discard as unworthy of play in this format.  The most pressing is that none of the high CC, low impact goblins of old are present.  Anemic clocks like Siege Gang Commander and too-late card advantage engines like Goblin Ringleader are simply gone.  Even Goblin Warchief, once considered a solid accelerant, is completely absent. Instead of a focus on late game beats, or card advantage and tempo that comes far too late, we've switched to an explosive control strategy with an aggro fallback.

1. This is no longer an aggro deck with an anemic clock.
2. We're primarily a control deck.
3. You're very unlikely to pay more than 3 mana (and often 2) for any spell in this deck that doesn't win you the game on the spot.
4. Goblin Chieftain is the transforming card that lets us survive running a deck full of 1/1s in a Tarmogoyf's world.

The basic strategy in the Tez and combo matchups is to drop an Earwig Squad by turn 3. Since you run 9 of them via tutors and real copies, they aren't particularly hard to find.  Waste effects can keep your opponent off Drain mana and you can typically bait counterspells using cards like Piledriver and Lackey.  Fanatics address the fact that Bob can block (and rob your opponent of their draw engine) and Vandals are surprisingly relevant blowing up the land-light Tez builds' artifact mana.  Hundreds of games in testing and tournament results confirm that our critical turn is *before* Tez's critical turn.  We sideboard out Swamp, Wort, and a Chieftain for 3x Null Rod.  One Chieftain remains as a usually unneeded spot answer to Darkblast.

The basic strategy in the Stax matchup is to force them to Crop Rotate for Tabernacle while keeping the board under control with Vandal or alternatively to just turn Earwig sideways 4 times.  We run hasty creatures and the ability of the bannerets to combat Spheres is crucial. (Remember: cost increases, cost reductions, then Trinisphere.)  Crashes out of the board provide an amazing tempo boost that will surprise people who haven't played with the card.  The Blood Crypts are in over more red fetches to combat problems with excessive land thinning against Stax.

The fish matchups revolve around sticking a Wort or Chieftain, depending on the size of the butts you face.  Earwig Squad taking 3x Tarmogoyf is generally a key play that must be made. G2, we take out Vandals (or Lackeys!) for Jittes.  Wort + Warren Weirding/Matron often provides insurmountable card advantage.

Ichorid hinges on Strip effects, Fanatics, and Earwig Squad taking Dread Return g1.  Game 2, Leylines and Jittes come in for Vandals, Weirdings, and a Swamp.

Now, with the strategies for various matchups discussed and the control role clearly highlighted, let's talk about:
Contentious inclusions
Goblin Piledriver: Let's pretend it's a 3/2 pro-blue for 1R.  Pro-blue matters, the body not so much.  This card is clearly included as an undercosted attacker in a deck that purports to be a control deck, and that makes it contentious.  This is a choice I can't defend outside of "but people waste counterspells on it!"  Maybe you could race Iona Oath with this?  Meh.  Alternatively, you can pretend it's a 1/2 pro-blue that gives all Goblins +2/+0 and banding as long as they attack in a band.  Then it has some merit in a deck whose control is based on turning 1/1s sideways.  The fact remains that no matter how you view it, it's a weak card outside of combat and not quite Tarmogoyf in combat.

Blood Crypt: it's in here to address the thinning problem against Stax and others decks with Wastelands, but the shock hurts.  If we didn't run Crashes side (ie they print a solid, red anti-artifact trap), these would be red fetches in a heartbeat.

Black goblins.
Earwig Squad: We can frequently drop him turn 2 and turn two Jester's Cap with a 5/3 butt is good.  In most matchups, you can regard Consultation and Matron as tutoring only for him.  When he resolves, the game against Tez and combo ends with a scoop.  This is often easier than expected since many people forget that he exists and tap out (drrr...I can race goblins with vault key!), or Wasteland can keep an opponent off Drain mana.

Frogtosser Banneret: He's a 1/1 haste for 1B that makes every spell but Consultation cost 1 less.  In practice, that puts him at least on par with Lackey since since it means you can drop two goblins each turn.  The cost reduction is very relevant as dropping him turn one often allows a fishing expedition with Piledriver or equivalent before dropping Earwig Squad for 1B.

Wort: Silver bullet against aggro.  Most decks can't block her, she provides a Matron or Warren Weirding each turn.  When I play against (bad) extended decks/slivers/zombies on MWS, I fetch her.  I shudder to admit this, but at the Savannah tournament I recently ran at a local shop, she was key in beating 100+ card zombies (every zombie lord ever printed!) and counter wall.dec (counter spells and walls).

Warren Weirding: Weirding addresses Iona oath and Tinker.  They aren't hard to find, perform well against aggro, and can boost Piledriver in a pinch (note haste on the tokens).  This is the second most common Matron target since it can help to race an early Tinker.

Red goblins
Goblin Lackey: Lackey is an autoinclude as a one-drop who sucks up FoWs and makes incredible amounts of tempo. He's a good mix of Black Lotus and Aether Vial.

Mogg Fanatic: Addresses Bob and Welder, slows Ichy by a turn (sac, bridges trigger and resolve rfg-ing themselves, he kills something).

Goblin Vandal: Powerful answer to Stax.  He eats Crucibles, Smokestacks, and even Ensnaring Bridges for breakfast.  In other matches, he eats Moxen which is more relevant than it probably sounds given today's fairly light and aggressive mana bases.

Goblin Matron: Tutor.  Gets silver bullets, answers problems, and chump blocks Goyfs.

Goblin Chieftain: Goblin King never quite did enough and Boartusk Liege cost too much for too little.  Chieftain lets you survive running a deck of 1/1s in a world of bears and Goyfs.

Sideboard
Crash: Play it against Stax.  Massive tempo boost that can destroy Tangle Wires at eot or destroy Crucible in response to a baited Wasteland activation.  Immune to Chalices at 1 and 2.

Shattering Spree: Strong against the workshop aggro problem matchup.  Can devastate Stax.

Jitte: Devastates unprepared aggro, kills 1/1s on a whim when combating Ichorid.

Null Rod/Leyline: Duh.  3 Null Rod since they're often unnecessary.


Comments/questions/etc? My teammate Monomax and I will respond.

Thread title edited.  -DA

Goblins top8s:
Max's top8 with our original build.
Scrubbing Bubbles top8 with their build
TWO antiquated RG builds top8
Goblins WINS a 100+ man tourney in Europe.
Goblins with Squads, Instigators, and Simian Spirit Guides top8s.
RGB "Roblins" wins an ELD tourney.  He's top8-ed a bunch of them according to the thread.  List here.
Max top8s at the Quebec Vintage Champs with our RBu build.
I top8 at Xtreme games
A RB gobs list with Instigators and SSGs top8s 30-man tourney in Baltimore.
One of Max's friends top8s with a VERY outdated version of our list in Quebec
Completely unpowered Food Chain Goblins top8s at the Catalan Vintage League
« Last Edit: August 26, 2010, 10:33:18 am by AmbivalentDuck » Logged

A link to the GitHub project where I store all of my Cockatrice decks.
Team TMD - If you feel that team secrecy is bad for Vintage put this in your signature
Any interest in putting together/maintaining a Github Git project that hosts proven decks of all major archetypes and documents their changes over time?
honestabe
Basic User
**
Posts: 1113


How many more Unicorns must die???


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2009, 06:30:13 pm »

This is a VERY interesting list, with what I think has a lot of potential.

I'd LOVE to see it played in a tournament
Logged

Quote
As far as I can tell, the entire Vintage community is based on absolute statements
  -Chris Pikula
AmbivalentDuck
Tournament Organizers
Basic User
**
Posts: 2808

Exile Ancestral and turn Tiago sideways.

ambivalentduck ambivalentduck ambivalentduck
View Profile
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2009, 06:33:31 pm »

It has been.  I "won" my Savannah tournament with it (but a 4 player tournament with jank decks says nothing).  I also won all 3 of my matches in the almost-Savannah tournament with Jaco and AK44 vs Steel City Vault, Grim Long, and Ichorid.  Monomax t8-ed a medium-large tournament up in Canada with it, too.

Oh, and I forgot about this gem.  I ran a crappy unoptimized list at ICBM day 2 and placed above Steve:
« Last Edit: October 07, 2009, 06:41:38 pm by AmbivalentDuck » Logged

A link to the GitHub project where I store all of my Cockatrice decks.
Team TMD - If you feel that team secrecy is bad for Vintage put this in your signature
Any interest in putting together/maintaining a Github Git project that hosts proven decks of all major archetypes and documents their changes over time?
Joblin Velder
Basic User
**
Posts: 510


Useless casual

ninjabot7000@hotmail.com CountRockula999
View Profile Email
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2009, 06:37:50 pm »

Could you explain how this deck accomplishes its control strategy?
Logged

Team Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday Saturday Sunday: I will pee all over myself then we'll see who will end up looking bad.
AmbivalentDuck
Tournament Organizers
Basic User
**
Posts: 2808

Exile Ancestral and turn Tiago sideways.

ambivalentduck ambivalentduck ambivalentduck
View Profile
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2009, 06:43:49 pm »

Most matchups: Mana denial via Vandal and Waste effects, win condition removal via Earwig Squad and Weirding, and Confidant/Welder removal via Fanatic.
Fish: Recurring creature removal via Wort
Logged

A link to the GitHub project where I store all of my Cockatrice decks.
Team TMD - If you feel that team secrecy is bad for Vintage put this in your signature
Any interest in putting together/maintaining a Github Git project that hosts proven decks of all major archetypes and documents their changes over time?
Vegeta2711
Bouken Desho Desho?
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1734


Nyah!

Silky172
View Profile WWW
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2009, 08:07:48 pm »

Methinks control is a rather awkward strategic misnomer to call a deck full of Goblins.

Three things.
1. Why would you ever worry about Stax with that many MD and SB cards when the match is a bye barring a god draw?
2. How do you justify running that many crappy accelerant creatures but not Aether Vial?
3. Sorta lost on the point of Jitte. Again, lost on how Fish is a hard match for Gobs at all?

ninja edit: fourth thing, why even play goblins when you cut all the best ones?
Logged

Team Reflection

www.vegeta2711.deviantart.com - My art stuff!
clayparson
Basic User
**
Posts: 21


View Profile Email
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2009, 08:12:00 pm »

by my count that list is 4 cards short.
Logged
potato
Basic User
**
Posts: 116


View Profile Email
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2009, 08:12:26 pm »

I've had vintage goblins built for quite some time, and Goblin Warchief has always been an MVP. Why not include any?
Logged
AmbivalentDuck
Tournament Organizers
Basic User
**
Posts: 2808

Exile Ancestral and turn Tiago sideways.

ambivalentduck ambivalentduck ambivalentduck
View Profile
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2009, 08:30:55 pm »

Methinks control is a rather awkward strategic misnomer to call a deck full of Goblins.

Three things.
1. Why would you ever worry about Stax with that many MD and SB cards when the match is a bye barring a god draw?
Have you played goblins vs stax since the unrestriction of Crop Rotation?  Tabernacle is brutal and often very difficult to play around.  Luckily they lose quite a bit of tempo getting it out.

Quote
2. How do you justify running that many crappy accelerant creatures but not Aether Vial?
Aether Vial doesn't help you play the only relevant goblin in combo and vault matchups: Earwig Squad.  I played Vials at ICBM day 2...they're too slow for this meta and completely unnecessary when you don't try to play many 3 and 4cc goblins.

Quote
3. Sorta lost on the point of Jitte. Again, lost on how Fish is a hard match for Gobs at all?
Tarmogoyf. Exalted attackers.

Quote
ninja edit: fourth thing, why even play goblins when you cut all the best ones?
You mean the ones that hit play after Tez has already assembled Vault-Key?  Or possibly the ones that you'll waste vast amounts of tempo getting into play vs stax only to sacrifice to Tabernacle?

I've had vintage goblins built for quite some time, and Goblin Warchief has always been an MVP. Why not include any?
A 3cc goblin is something you want to turn sideways along with several lower cc goblins and deal massive damage.  Not something you want to turn sideways for 2, pass the turn and then play a solid threat.  Again, played at ICBM day 2 and cut for cards that aren't win-more over many weeks of testing.

by my count that list is 4 cards short.
Missing 4x Bloodstained Mire.  Fixed in the original post.
Logged

A link to the GitHub project where I store all of my Cockatrice decks.
Team TMD - If you feel that team secrecy is bad for Vintage put this in your signature
Any interest in putting together/maintaining a Github Git project that hosts proven decks of all major archetypes and documents their changes over time?
Monomax
Basic User
**
Posts: 14


View Profile Email
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2009, 09:19:49 pm »

I played this in a 30 man tournament in Quebec City.

To be honest, I was aggro alots of time during that day. My opponent required me to be the beatz.
Every time I needed a card, matron was soooo key to everything! And when you got frogtosser banneret on the board, your in for quick gobo-beat machine.

I went 4 wins - 2 draws into top 8.

I beated :

Weird Blue MUD

Game 1

I went Turn 1 Lackey
He went Turn 1 Titan
He beated me to rubble because blocking 7/10 doesnt give victory and I had no Werding or Tutor.

Game 2

Me : Turn 1 Dual Lackey
Him : Workshop Sphere

Me : Attack, Matron, Piledriver
Him : Stax

Me : Attack for 10, Drop 1 gobo
Him : Play Stax

Me : Kill him.

Game 3

I remember myself casting Black Lotus and ruining his board, then winning slowly with cheftain, fanatic and matron while wasting all his land.

Combo :

Game 1 - Best Start Ever

Turn 1

Me : Lotus, land, mox, Frogtosser Banneret, Attack for 1, Consultation for Earwig, Earwig FTW

Game 2

I remember a quick explosion of creature that made him unable to use his necropotence to get a big advantage out of it. The mana source in this deck is really incredible.

Ichorid :

Game 1

Ichorid win slowly because even a wasted bazaar and fanatic cant win over dredge Sad

Game 2

I won with wasteland and Earwig for 3 Bazaar Very Happy

Game 3

Leylines take it home. My opponent didnt saw any leyline on game 2 and he have nothing to prevent leyline.

Tezz

Game 1

Turn 1

Him : Mox-Land-Confidant

Me : Mountain-Fanatic


Him : Land, go
Me : Land, Mox, Fanatic, Piledriver

Him : Land, go
Me :  Wasteland, Waste response by thirst for knowledge, Frogtosser, Attack for 7

Him : Land, Tinker, Inkwell
Me : Drop Cheftain, Attack and win since Piledriver is pro blue Very Happy

Game 2

I remember me dropping Matron early like turn one, and earwig FTW turn 2 with him not having any drain to prevent my earwig victory.

In Top 8 I beated the same Ichorid that I beated in swiss round. In the same ordre and the same way, but game 3 I raced his sideboard with gobo.

In top 4 I lost to MUD

Game 1 : Turn 1 worker, Turn 2 Staff and combo out. My only out would have been a turn 1 Warren Weirding.

Game 2 : I lacked mana and I didnt mulliganed my one land and petal. He had throng of land and crucible-strip mine. Game over.


While playing, you always have the «go for the beat» OR «go for the jester option».
I assure you that your opponent panic when a single gobo touch him since an earwig can be dropped on the table really fast. It sometime leads to misplay, since people can kill or bounce your gobo into your hand, fearing an Earwig.


Finally, sorry for my bad english. Im french from Quebec Razz

Max


EDIT :  Stax is not that easy of a matchup. Tangle Wire and Sphere hurt us if we are not on the play.

Fish has lots of 2/2 body, we have 1/1 and lighting speed. That gobo deck HATE to be blocked and he hate creature removal to... since he dont have any means of drawing card.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2009, 09:27:21 pm by Monomax » Logged
Cyberpunker
Basic User
**
Posts: 608


I just gotta topdeck better than you ^_^.


View Profile WWW
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2009, 12:38:38 am »

I'm not that experienced playing WITH goblins but I have played AGAINST it. And I can tell you that Earwig Squad is a pain in the ass to deal with. But the card I always am frustrated against the most is Gempalm Incinerator. Killing away stuff like Sower of Temptation, Dark Confidant, Spellstutter Sprite, Tarmogoyf, etc. Basically clearing the way for your Goblins.

I would run atleast 1 MD. The uncounterable removal But I do not know what to take out, as I do not have experience building goblins. Just my 2 cents in trying to help you and your deck.  

Also, Goblin Piledriver is often the goblin that wins the games as the damage output can make the difference between your opponent having another turn to recover or not...

As for the mana base, how about Chrome Mox or Mox Diamond. Would that be too much for Goblins to handle?
Logged

BruiZar
Basic User
**
Posts: 990



View Profile
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2009, 02:44:32 am »

Quote
Game 1 - Best Start Ever

Turn 1

Me : Lotus, land, mox, Frogtosser Banneret, Attack for 1, Consultation for Earwig, Earwig FTW
Does Frogtosser Banneret reduce the mana cost for Prowl?
Logged
RecklessEmbermage
Basic User
**
Posts: 279


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2009, 03:47:31 am »

Quote
Game 1 - Best Start Ever

Turn 1

Me : Lotus, land, mox, Frogtosser Banneret, Attack for 1, Consultation for Earwig, Earwig FTW
Does Frogtosser Banneret reduce the mana cost for Prowl?


Yes it does.

It looks from that tournament report that you got lucky repeatedly with fast mana in your opening hand. I guess the manabase is really good though.

I've played a list similar to this, but I did play vials and ringleasers instead of piledrivers and I included a singleton warchief. It worked just fine, but I can envision this being better, with less focus on the late game. One thing though: I miss some hand-disruption in that list. Did you decide that there's just not enough time for duress/seize/therapy?

Logged
xouman
Basic User
**
Posts: 1082


View Profile Email
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2009, 06:29:49 am »

Frogtosser is not as good as Lackey or Vial. You get Earwig in turn 3, as you will do without him. Also, with lackeys and vials gobbos can't be countered. Warren instigator can be a nice adding, but without ringleader it is not so good.

Btw, nobody countered earwig? I got them countered lots of times.

Darkblast crushes this deck, and there are lots of darkblasts these days (due to confidants, of course).
Logged
AmbivalentDuck
Tournament Organizers
Basic User
**
Posts: 2808

Exile Ancestral and turn Tiago sideways.

ambivalentduck ambivalentduck ambivalentduck
View Profile
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2009, 08:23:48 am »

I'm not that experienced playing WITH goblins but I have played AGAINST it. And I can tell you that Earwig Squad is a pain in the ass to deal with. But the card I always am frustrated against the most is Gempalm Incinerator. Killing away stuff like Sower of Temptation, Dark Confidant, Spellstutter Sprite, Tarmogoyf, etc. Basically clearing the way for your Goblins.

I would run atleast 1 MD. The uncounterable removal But I do not know what to take out, as I do not have experience building goblins. Just my 2 cents in trying to help you and your deck.
Gempalm was a very painful cut.  It came down to racing Tinker since it turns out that the number of Tinker answers we run greatly influences our ability to beat Tez.  With 3, Tinker can seldom race you.  With 2, a defensive Drain can be a problem.  If that sounds weird, realize that you end up Consulting for it somewhat frequently.

Quote
Also, Goblin Piledriver is often the goblin that wins the games as the damage output can make the difference between your opponent having another turn to recover or not...
Sadly, yes.  That's why we included him.  If they printed Ronom Goblin (1R, x/1, sac: destroy target artifact) in Worldwake, Piledriver would out *very* fast.

Quote
As for the mana base, how about Chrome Mox or Mox Diamond. Would that be too much for Goblins to handle?
Diamond is out of the question since with 20 land, you're discarding one of two lands in your hand and won't see another for 1.5 draw phases.  Chrome eats into card advantage which could be an issue.  I think Simian Spirit Guide and off color Moxen are a better choice if they print some must-play 2b/r goblin.  The most contentious omission in the artifact mana base is probably Sol Ring since he aids in our stated goal of pushing out turn 2 Earwig Squads.

Frogtosser is not as good as Lackey or Vial. You get Earwig in turn 3, as you will do without him. Also, with lackeys and vials gobbos can't be countered. Warren instigator can be a nice adding, but without ringleader it is not so good.

Btw, nobody countered earwig? I got them countered lots of times.
That's because you're using Vial instead of Moxen and Frogtossers.  When you prowl him out on turn 2, he's *much* better.

Quote
Darkblast crushes this deck, and there are lots of darkblasts these days (due to confidants, of course).
It does not.  Darkblasting means that Tez is not drawing and any 1/1 that connect elicits fear of Earwig Squad.  So, basically, Darkblast means I'm getting closer to a nasty threat and they're not.  Arguably, mass creature removal and running 4+ win conditions is the best answer to this deck.
Logged

A link to the GitHub project where I store all of my Cockatrice decks.
Team TMD - If you feel that team secrecy is bad for Vintage put this in your signature
Any interest in putting together/maintaining a Github Git project that hosts proven decks of all major archetypes and documents their changes over time?
staticfirex
Basic User
**
Posts: 4


View Profile Email
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2009, 10:45:56 am »

warren instigator seems like hell reallly speed up the deck.
Logged
potato
Basic User
**
Posts: 116


View Profile Email
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2009, 11:01:24 am »

To those pushing Aether Vial, it should be noted that if you want to play Goblins with Null Rod, it's harder to fit in the vial.
Logged
AmbivalentDuck
Tournament Organizers
Basic User
**
Posts: 2808

Exile Ancestral and turn Tiago sideways.

ambivalentduck ambivalentduck ambivalentduck
View Profile
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2009, 11:51:05 am »

warren instigator seems like hell reallly speed up the deck.
Tapping out on turn 2 for a 1/1 that might produce mana and do damage on turn 3 is not speeding the deck up.

To those pushing Aether Vial, it should be noted that if you want to play Goblins with Null Rod, it's harder to fit in the vial.
Absolutely true.  By contrast, running extra Moxen makes a turn 1 Rod play much easier.
Logged

A link to the GitHub project where I store all of my Cockatrice decks.
Team TMD - If you feel that team secrecy is bad for Vintage put this in your signature
Any interest in putting together/maintaining a Github Git project that hosts proven decks of all major archetypes and documents their changes over time?
MTGFan
Basic User
**
Posts: 273


View Profile
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2009, 01:35:43 pm »

This is a pretty cool, and fun little deck.

Could you give us a brief rundown of optimal Earwig targets for specific matchups? I don't always know if I'm removing the right stuff (early game vs late game, first earwig vs. second earwig, etc).

Also, have you considered running either Duress or Thoughtseize?

Logged
AmbivalentDuck
Tournament Organizers
Basic User
**
Posts: 2808

Exile Ancestral and turn Tiago sideways.

ambivalentduck ambivalentduck ambivalentduck
View Profile
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2009, 01:52:43 pm »

You could theoretically cut Piledrivers for Duress. It's a change I honestly haven't tested.  The Tez matchup is already solid and if you fear the few combo decks present in this meta, swap Null Rods out for Pyrostatic Pillars.  It used to be trash combo hate, then the 'best' combo decks started revolving around Ad Nauseam.

Tez: Robot, Time Vault, Yawg Will (all games).  Yawg Will lets them recur Confidants.  IF they board in Meloku, take him over Yawg Will.
Ad Naus: 3x Tendrils (all of them).  Should end the game.  IF IT WOULD NOT (ie. Tendrils in hand), take Yawg Will, Timetwister, Ancestral.
G/x aggro: 3x Goyf.
Other aggro: their biggest dude.  If it's all bears, Confidant.  Probably Jittes post side.
G/R Stax: Dups, Platz, Tabernacle.  If targets are missing, Mishra's Factory, Barbarian Ring, Strip Mine in that order.
Ichorid: 3x Dread Return OR 3x Bridge depending on board position.  Ie. How long can you chump block a 15/15+ grave troll?  Do you have Fanatic to stop bridge triggers?
Oath: Fatties. If it's Iona: Iona, Will, Time Vault.  If they have 4+ fatties, leave cards like Progenitus and Iona that you can race.

Btw, we chose not to run Skirk Prospector, which simply decimates the Bridge strategy since you have bottomless supply of sac effects.  If you see no aggro but tons of Ichy, run one main over Wort.  He's also cute against Tabernacle and facilitates turn 2 Earwig against Tez.


Logged

A link to the GitHub project where I store all of my Cockatrice decks.
Team TMD - If you feel that team secrecy is bad for Vintage put this in your signature
Any interest in putting together/maintaining a Github Git project that hosts proven decks of all major archetypes and documents their changes over time?
Beralt
Basic User
**
Posts: 130



View Profile
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2009, 04:01:49 pm »

I like the idea of adding a tad of Green throwing in two Taiga for the Blood Crypts, substituting for Tin-Street Hooligan (more power and more immediate ability, he actually would cost less if there are no artifacts in play to destroy if Frogtosser is in play.  This would allow you to actually run Ancient Grudge in the side in addition.
Logged
RecklessEmbermage
Basic User
**
Posts: 279


View Profile
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2009, 04:30:58 pm »

I like the idea of adding a tad of Green throwing in two Taiga for the Blood Crypts, substituting for Tin-Street Hooligan (more power and more immediate ability, he actually would cost less if there are no artifacts in play to destroy if Frogtosser is in play.  This would allow you to actually run Ancient Grudge in the side in addition.

I tried this (with 6 red fetches, 2 taiga and 2 badlands) and ended up cutting him. Hooligan is strong in GR aggro, but with lackeys, frogtossers (and in my case aether vial) the dissynergies and slight weakening of the manabase became a bit too much to swallow.

Goblins have many ways to deal with artifacts and I'm currently regarding vandal as #1 for the maindeck. Splashing green for ancient grudge or seal of primordium in the side is an option though.
Logged
AmbivalentDuck
Tournament Organizers
Basic User
**
Posts: 2808

Exile Ancestral and turn Tiago sideways.

ambivalentduck ambivalentduck ambivalentduck
View Profile
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2009, 05:55:29 pm »

Goblins have many ways to deal with artifacts and I'm currently regarding vandal as #1 for the maindeck. Splashing green for ancient grudge or seal of primordium in the side is an option though.
Artifact Mutation is a brutal answer to Stax if you go with the green splash.
Logged

A link to the GitHub project where I store all of my Cockatrice decks.
Team TMD - If you feel that team secrecy is bad for Vintage put this in your signature
Any interest in putting together/maintaining a Github Git project that hosts proven decks of all major archetypes and documents their changes over time?
Smmenen
2007 Vintage World Champion
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 6392


Smmenen
View Profile WWW
« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2009, 04:23:58 pm »



Creatures:
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
3 Goblin Vandal
4 Frogtosser Banneret
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
2 Goblin Chieftain
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
4 Earwig Squad

Spells:
1 Demonic Consultation
3 Warren Weirding

Mana:
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox ____ (doesn't matter, Emerald bluffs SB cards you don't run)
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
4 Badlands
2 Blood Crypt
4 Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine


2. We're primarily a control deck.


You say that you are primarily a control deck, but you don't have that many ways of disrupting your opponent.

You have:
1) Earwig Squad
2) Goblin Vandal
3) Warren Weirding
4) Wasteland

And to a much lesser extent you have Mogg Fanatic (in terms of its relevance)

Earwig Squad is nice, although it's only good against the UB decks, really, and some Stax decks.   Goblin Vandal isn't terrible either, but it's really not that great.

In terms of your ability to interact, these cards are quite limited.  You don't have Chalice or Null Rod or discard effects.  You rail against aggro cards, yet the bulk of your deck is cards that do nothing more than beatdown: Piledriver, Chieftan, Banneret, Lackey, etc. 

I'm just trying to understand how you say you can be a control deck when you only have 4 interactive cards, and those cards are very hit or miss with respect to particular archetypes. 
Logged

RecklessEmbermage
Basic User
**
Posts: 279


View Profile
« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2009, 06:22:20 pm »

I'm just trying to understand how you say you can be a control deck when you only have 4 interactive cards, and those cards are very hit or miss with respect to particular archetypes. 

It isn't. Only the op seems to think that and we have not made a big deal out of it.

Please don't start spamming this thread over semantics.
Logged
JACO
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1215


Don't be a meatball.


View Profile WWW
« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2009, 06:47:14 pm »

It has been.  I "won" my Savannah tournament with it (but a 4 player tournament with jank decks says nothing).  I also won all 3 of my matches in the almost-Savannah tournament with Jaco and AK44 vs Steel City Vault, Grim Long, and Ichorid.  Monomax t8-ed a medium-large tournament up in Canada with it, too.
You must be joking. I wasn't aware that 4 people playing a few non-sideboarded games consisted of a tournament. You have basically no clock, and managed to beat my deck when I mana screwed myself by keeping questionable hands and mulliganing (again, not a real tournament, just playtesting on a Saturday night). If Steel City Vault gets decent hands it should do pretty well against this deck. You have no relevant spells against SCV except Earwig Squad (for which SCV has Force of Will) and after sideboard you have Null Rod (meet Ingot Chewer and Ancient Grudge).

This deck is ok, but you should really be enforcing the point of the deck. The point is to Earwig Squad as soon as possible every game (except against Ichorid). All of your creatures are cheap intentionally for this goal. Against UB decks this can help take win conditions, and against Stax this can provide a beater and take any answers (such as Balance, Duplicant, Triskelion, Razormane, etc.).

A couple of points.
1) Jitte is not needed at all. Gempalm is better against pretty much everything. 
2) AEther Vial is better against Stax, but worse against everything else (speed wise), and doesn't really help this deck accomplish its goal of casting Earwig Squad as soon as possible, so you can all stop suggesting in this variant. 
3) Regarding Duress, there is absolutely no reason to play it. If you were going to play any discard spell you would play Thoughtseize (life loss is irrelevant and it's a much better card), or possibly Cabal Therapy (if you're good enough, but it's unlikely since most decks you'd want it against are a pile of Restricted cards now).

@Steve: This isn't really a control deck, but it's a decent deck. Let's just call it what it is. It's an Earwig Squad deck with disruption in the form of Wasteland and Warren Weirding. 
Logged

Want to write about Vintage, Legacy, Modern, Type 4, or Commander/EDH? Eternal Central is looking for writers! Contact me. Follow me on Twitter @JMJACO. Follow Eternal Central on Twitter @EternalCentral.
meadbert
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 1341


View Profile Email
« Reply #26 on: October 09, 2009, 07:35:44 pm »

Calling this a control deck is reasonable.  Obviously there is a sliding scale and this may be in the grey area, but I always ask this question regarding Tinker->Robot:
Is your goal to stop/delay/answer it or is your goal to race it.  This deck's goal is to stop, delay or answer it thus it is a control deck in that sense although certainly not as controlling as other Fish decks might be.
Logged

T1: Arsenal
AmbivalentDuck
Tournament Organizers
Basic User
**
Posts: 2808

Exile Ancestral and turn Tiago sideways.

ambivalentduck ambivalentduck ambivalentduck
View Profile
« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2009, 01:20:28 am »

It has been.  I "won" my Savannah tournament with it (but a 4 player tournament with jank decks says nothing).  I also won all 3 of my matches in the almost-Savannah tournament with Jaco and AK44 vs Steel City Vault, Grim Long, and Ichorid.  Monomax t8-ed a medium-large tournament up in Canada with it, too.
You must be joking. I wasn't aware that 4 people playing a few non-sideboarded games consisted of a tournament. You have basically no clock, and managed to beat my deck when I mana screwed myself by keeping questionable hands and mulliganing (again, not a real tournament, just playtesting on a Saturday night).
I'm not joking.  I said specifically that 4 players means nothing, particularly when you're playing against bad zombies and walls.  I'm citing the only "live" testing vs TMDers that I have with all necessary disclaimers.  This consists of one Saturday evening when you were present and one when you were not.  Casual or otherwise, it's still the best evidence available to cite.  Chicago needs more big tourneys Sad

Quote
This deck is ok, but you should really be enforcing the point of the deck. The point is to Earwig Squad as soon as possible every game (except against Ichorid). All of your creatures are cheap intentionally for this goal. Against UB decks this can help take win conditions, and against Stax this can provide a beater and take any answers (such as Balance, Duplicant, Triskelion, Razormane, etc.).
Agreed.

Quote
1) Jitte is not needed at all. Gempalm is better against pretty much everything.
Except Goyfs and Workshop Aggro.  Getting Gempalm to do more than a few points of damage when facing down a Goyf is difficult.

Quote
2) AEther Vial is better against Stax, but worse against everything else (speed wise), and doesn't really help this deck accomplish its goal of casting Earwig Squad as soon as possible, so you can all stop suggesting in this variant.

3) Regarding Duress, there is absolutely no reason to play it. If you were going to play any discard spell you would play Thoughtseize (life loss is irrelevant and it's a much better card), or possibly Cabal Therapy (if you're good enough, but it's unlikely since most decks you'd want it against are a pile of Restricted cards now).
Agreed


Quote
@Steve: This isn't really a control deck, but it's a decent deck. Let's just call it what it is. It's an Earwig Squad deck with disruption in the form of Wasteland and Warren Weirding.
This is a dumb fight to have with people who haven't played the deck...but here I go anyways.  If you pilot the deck with the goal of dealing 20 damage to your opponent as soon as possible, you will run into "misasignment of role = game loss."  Your goal in most matchups is to blow up lands, Crucilbles, Moxen, Bobs, and Tinker robots until A) You've incidentally dealt enough damage to be able to swiftly end the game or B) You can stick an Earwig Squad.

Regardless of the contents of the deck, if you do not treat it as a control deck you will not perform well with it.
Logged

A link to the GitHub project where I store all of my Cockatrice decks.
Team TMD - If you feel that team secrecy is bad for Vintage put this in your signature
Any interest in putting together/maintaining a Github Git project that hosts proven decks of all major archetypes and documents their changes over time?
c dizzle
Basic User
**
Posts: 87


View Profile Email
« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2009, 10:24:39 am »

My teammate Tyler just T8ed yesterday with our build of Goblins that we had been working on for a while. (And we were THRILLED when this primer went on to the Open Forum a few days before we finally brought it to a tourney. *end sarcasm*) While I agree with a lot of what has been posted so far, there are a few things that I will disagree with based on Team Scrubby Bubbles' development of the deck. First of all, this is NOT a control deck. It is a silver bullet deck with a clock. In a metagame where people diversify their threats and stop folding to Jester's Cap effects, it is the WRONG choice to play.

There are a lot of considerations as far as card selections, but I will add a few pieces of insight. If you play Lackey, excluding Ringleader is a poor choice. It is the most effective card advantage engine you have available. If your deck is aimed at resolving and Earwig Squad as quickly as possible, excluding Prospector is a poor choice. Land -> Prospector on turn 1 into Land -> attack -> sac Prospector -> Earwig Squad is one more way to get the job done. Why cut down on your ability to execute your most effective game-plan early? l also think that you need to be careful when adding cards to the deck with RR or BB in the casting cost. These cards don't get as cheap with Warchief/Frogtosser, so you have to be judicious with those cards. That said, Vexing Shusher hasn't been discussed and probably deserves a spot in the board at least. In Top 8, my teammate had double Earwig Squad in hand against TPS, baited a FoW on turn 2 and then folded when his opponent had another FoW for the second Squad. I also think Goblin Vandal is sub-par. He has to go unblocked to do his thing and decks like Bob Tez WILL block him to keep their Time Vault. We went with Goblin Tinkerer. He's a little more expensive (without Warchief/Frogtosser), but he isn't foiled by chump blockers. He was one of the deck's MVPs. Vial is TERRIBLE in this deck. If you are cheating your Gobling into play, you can't bait out counters. So opponents hold them and hit Earwig Squad. If you are insistent on Vial, Shusher is a must-include.

And finally the coup de grace- Team Scrubby Bubbles' super-secret sideboard tech: Mogg Salvage!!! This card is such a house against Tez. Tyler found it and the look on opponents' faces when he played it was priceless.
Logged
RecklessEmbermage
Basic User
**
Posts: 279


View Profile
« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2009, 10:37:44 am »

And finally the coup de grace- Team Scrubby Bubbles' super-secret sideboard tech: Mogg Salvage!!! This card is such a house against Tez. Tyler found it and the look on opponents' faces when he played it was priceless.

Since you already spilt your secrets...  Decklist?
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 12
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.085 seconds with 20 queries.