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Author Topic: [Discussion] Goblins  (Read 110780 times)
c dizzle
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« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2009, 10:46:08 am »

Sorry about that. Here it is.

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Strip Mine
3 Null Rod
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Badlands
1 Goblin Tinkerer
4 Goblin Piledriver
1 Swamp
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Skirk Prospector
2 Mountain
1 Ancient Ziggurat
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Frogtosser Banneret
3 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Matron
4 Earwig Squad
3 Goblin Ringleader
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:
4 Mogg Salvage
1 Goblin Welder
2 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Ravenous Trap
4 Leyline of the Void

This build is aimed at an environment over-populated with Bob Tez. The sideboard was overly-focused on Ichorid, which likely should have been changed (though Ravenous Trap has some applications against Combo Oath) and Siege-Gang was there for Stax, which he didn't see all day.
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« Reply #31 on: October 12, 2009, 10:46:46 am »

mogg Salvage is awesome.  It's a card that Kevin Cron used to run in the Stax SB for Control Slaver waaay back in the day.  I'll add that to the Complete Vintage checklist. 
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RecklessEmbermage
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« Reply #32 on: October 12, 2009, 11:02:35 am »

Sorry about that. Here it is.

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Strip Mine
3 Null Rod
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Badlands
1 Goblin Tinkerer
4 Goblin Piledriver
1 Swamp
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Skirk Prospector
2 Mountain
1 Ancient Ziggurat
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Frogtosser Banneret
3 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Matron
4 Earwig Squad
3 Goblin Ringleader
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:
4 Mogg Salvage
1 Goblin Welder
2 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Ravenous Trap
4 Leyline of the Void

This build is aimed at an environment over-populated with Bob Tez. The sideboard was overly-focused on Ichorid, which likely should have been changed (though Ravenous Trap has some applications against Combo Oath) and Siege-Gang was there for Stax, which he didn't see all day.


Thank you. Though therapy gains from squads, I have found 4 to be a bit much and would rather mix it with thoughtseize. Could you explain how you ended up on the full set?

Ancient ziggurat seems odd. Why run it over another fetch or sulfurous springs? You do run a few noncreature spells..

After running this in tournament(s), do you still feel sharpshooter is worth a slot in the main?

Only one tinkerer main and no warren weirdings seems a bit.. naked. You'll have to resolve earwig squad early pretty much every game or get really lucky with therapies, because a single trouble permanent (let's say sphinx of the steel wind) can easily stop you. Have you been happy with that?
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AmbivalentDuck
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« Reply #33 on: October 12, 2009, 12:57:37 pm »

First of all, this is NOT a control deck. It is a silver bullet deck with a clock. In a metagame where people diversify their threats and stop folding to Jester's Cap effects, it is the WRONG choice to play.
That's how your team built it.  You threw away the Stax matchup in order to include cards that look better against Tez.
Quote
If you play Lackey, excluding Ringleader is a poor choice. It is the most effective card advantage engine you have available.
No, Ancestral Recall is.  And if I wanted to draw more cards, I'd splash in a Volcanic.  If you stick a t1 Lackey, you're already living the dream...you don't need to add conditional "win-more" cards that only help when your deck is performing.  4 mana? C'mon.  Ancestral and Time Walk are better cards and far less conditional (unanswered lackey vs find the volcanic).
Quote
If your deck is aimed at resolving and Earwig Squad as quickly as possible, excluding Prospector is a poor choice. Land -> Prospector on turn 1 into Land -> attack -> sac Prospector -> Earwig Squad is one more way to get the job done. Why cut down on your ability to execute your most effective game-plan early?
It's arguable that 3x Fanatics should come out for Vandal #4, 2x Prospector if you expect no Fish and lots of Tez.  If you expect any Fish, the ability to fog a Goyf and kill a Hierarch/Mindcensor/Vendillion Clique/Bob/etc is nice.
Quote
I also think Goblin Vandal is sub-par. He has to go unblocked to do his thing and decks like Bob Tez WILL block him to keep their Time Vault.
That's why I still run Fanatics: the Bob part of Bob Tez.  Taking their draw engine and blocker offline is solid.
Quote
We went with Goblin Tinkerer. He's a little more expensive (without Warchief/Frogtosser), but he isn't foiled by chump blockers. He was one of the deck's MVPs.
In an incredibly Tez-heavy meta...maybe.  But he's still easy to bounce when Willing.
Quote
And finally the coup de grace- Team Scrubby Bubbles' super-secret sideboard tech: Mogg Salvage!!! This card is such a house against Tez. Tyler found it and the look on opponents' faces when he played it was priceless.
This card is trash here.  If you really need to fill this role, use Crash since it's not dead against Stax.

3 Wasteland
...
2 Siege-Gang Commander

This build is aimed at an environment over-populated with Bob Tez. The sideboard was overly-focused on Ichorid, which likely should have been changed (though Ravenous Trap has some applications against Combo Oath) and Siege-Gang was there for Stax, which he didn't see all day.
With 3 Wasteland, you've obviously ditched a focus on early mana denial.  With 3-4 Vandals and the full Strip suite, it's much easier.  Instead of Siege-Gang, consider Mogg War Marshall since you can actually hardcast it.

With both Ringleader and Siege-Gang, your team shows a disturbing willingness to rely on Lackey.  
« Last Edit: October 12, 2009, 01:15:53 pm by AmbivalentDuck » Logged

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« Reply #34 on: October 12, 2009, 01:15:57 pm »

mogg Salvage is awesome.  It's a card that Kevin Cron used to run in the Stax SB for Control Slaver waaay back in the day.  I'll add that to the Complete Vintage checklist. 

I've been playing with Mogg Salvage for years. I love the card. its a great way to combat vault key combo. Additionally, it can kill Null Rod for free in Selkie / BUG Fish.
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c dizzle
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« Reply #35 on: October 12, 2009, 02:03:42 pm »

Quote
Thank you. Though therapy gains from squads, I have found 4 to be a bit much and would rather mix it with thoughtseize. Could you explain how you ended up on the full set?

We went up to a full set of Therapies because this was the first post-Zendikar tourney in our area. In the face of an uncertain meta, we thought peeking at an opponent's hand would be a significant advantage. In prior testing we ran 3. We liked Therapy over Thoughtseize since you get two uses out of it, and it was often used just to make sure that FoW wouldn't stop Earwig Squad. Clearing counters were more important to us that being sure you got one card. Nothing's more frustrating than seeing TWO FoWs from a Thoughtseize.

Quote
Ancient ziggurat seems odd. Why run it over another fetch or sulfurous springs? You do run a few noncreature spells..

It is odd. We excluded it during testing for the same reason you mentioned- too many non-creature spells. I asked Tyler how it made the final cut for the tourney. He said that it had been a Mountain, but was having black mana issues, so he added it last minute. He conceded that it probably should have been a fetch.

Quote
After running this in tournament(s), do you still feel sharpshooter is worth a slot in the main?

I do. We see a ton of Bob Tez here and Sharpshooter is fantastic there. It also hits Welder and Vampire Hexmage and with Bitterblossom seeing more play (and I expect it to become even more popular since it HOSES Dark Depths combo) Sharpshooter is arguably getting better.

Quote
Only one tinkerer main and no warren weirdings seems a bit.. naked. You'll have to resolve earwig squad early pretty much every game or get really lucky with therapies, because a single trouble permanent (let's say sphinx of the steel wind) can easily stop you. Have you been happy with that?

We didn't miss it in this tourney, but I agree that at least on should be in the main. Especially since the price is right with Warchief/Frogtosser. I will say that it's better when you run Chieftain since you can kill your Matron and then hit for four after she fetches a Goblin for you.

Quote
mogg Salvage is awesome.  It's a card that Kevin Cron used to run in the Stax SB for Control Slaver waaay back in the day.  I'll add that to the Complete Vintage checklist.

We were pleasantly surprised that you left it off the checklist, Steve. You have a bad habit of discussing our tech in your articles just before we run it. Everyone must think we're Menendian groupies.  Very Happy

At AmbivalentDuck: Relax, buddy. You're a little defensive.

Quote
No, Ancestral Recall is.  And if I wanted to draw more cards, I'd splash in a Volcanic.  If you stick a t1 Lackey, you're already living the dream...you don't need to add conditional "win-more" cards that only help when your deck is performing.  4 mana? C'mon.  Ancestral and Time Walk are better cards and far less conditional (unanswered lackey vs find the volcanic).

Splashing blue can really hurt a delicate mana balance (more on that later). And to point out that Ringleader costs four is intentionally misleading. It often is free (via Lackey) and almost always costs three or less with Warchiefs/Frogtossers in play. If you have to pay four for Ringleader you need to learn to mulligan.

Quote
It's arguable that 3x Fanatics should come out for Vandal #4, 2x Prospector if you expect no Fish and lots of Tez.  If you expect any Fish, the ability to fog a Goyf and kill a Hierarch/Mindcensor/Vendillion Clique/Bob/etc is nice.

Fanatic's inability to stack damage and sac to kill two-toughness creature made us cut him. But that's a metagame call. We see next to no Hierarchs, Mindsensors or Cliques (oh, my) in NorCal. So getting him out of there was a no-brainer for us.

Quote
That's why I run Fanatics.

I'd rather do with one creature what you're doing with two. But, like I said above, the demands of your meta forced you to move in another direction. I don't consider the inclusion of Mogg Fanatic a design flaw.

Quote
In an incredibly Tez-heavy meta...maybe.  But he's still easy to bounce when Willing.

Our meta is Tez-heavy. And Vandal gets bounced when Willing, too. And don't forget that Fire/Ice stops Vandal from hitting Time Vault, but it doesn't stop Tinkerer.

Quote
This card is trash here.  If you really need to fill this role, use Crash since it's not dead against Stax.

One man's trash is another man's treasure. In your meta it may not have the impact it did in ours. It owned people for us (where a full third of the tourney was blue-based Key-Vault) and we kept our Mountains around. You are right, though. If you see a lot of Stax, Crash is the better choice. 

Quote
With 3 Wasteland, you've obviously ditched a focus on early mana denial.  With 3-4 Vandals and the full Strip suite, it's much easier.  Instead of Siege-Gang, consider Mogg War Marshall since you can actually hardcast it.

With both Ringleader and Siege-Gang, your team shows a disturbing willingness to rely on Lackey. 

With 3 Wasteland, we were able to smooth the color demands of the deck. We learned (through a ton of playtesting) that 4 Wasteland did more harm than good. Too often, we found that we were unable to cast critical threat because we had drawn into a second Wasteland instead. What was an "obvious" lack of concern for early mana denial to you was the result of long hours of playtesting and was a conscious choice to make the deck function better overall.

As for the War Marshall argument, we preferred the extra permanents generated by Siege-Gang for the Stax match-up. When we play Stax, we need either a fantastic hand with artifact mana or Lackey or we mulligan. Just because someone runs different tech, it doesn't mean that they haven't carefully thought out their inclusions and how they plan to use them tactically. If I took your same approach to evaluating decks, I would say that your team shows a disturbing willingness to rely on Vandal.

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refellos
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« Reply #36 on: October 12, 2009, 02:09:30 pm »

in our current meta we have a lot of bob tez, so mogg salvage was an amazing find and helped to a 3-0 record against bob tez in the last tourny. In hind sight we probably should have put a shock land instead of ancient ziggurat but you know sometimes things just stay where they are. but for the full set of cabal therapies. i would rather have those than duress or thoughtseize, because in our meta there were a lot of forces, which i believe makes cabal therapy better. potentially getting 2 for 1 and clearing the way for earwig is just better in my opinion.  
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AmbivalentDuck
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« Reply #37 on: October 12, 2009, 05:38:33 pm »

I think it says a lot that with as many slots as we disagree over, we can both get t8 results out of a deck that's widely viewed as trash.

Also, the difference between Drain-Tendrils and Tez is fewer slots than we differ on.
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c dizzle
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« Reply #38 on: October 12, 2009, 06:02:59 pm »

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I think it says a lot that with as many slots as we disagree over, we can both get t8 results out of a deck that's widely viewed as trash.

It's the cards that we do agree on that make the deck viable currently.

Quote
Also, the difference between Drain-Tendrils and Tez is fewer slots than we differ on.

That is incredibly telling. I think that Vintage decks have become very homogenized which helps silver bullet decks compete.
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« Reply #39 on: November 01, 2009, 11:24:31 pm »

@c dizzle: Just a question, if you had a chance to change the therapies with something else, what would you change it with in this build? Or is is the optimal card for the slot? I used to run duress in my build, but later got it cut because it was performing dismally. Then I saw your list, and since during the tourney you used it was pre-Zendikar, therapies were a good call. But for now, would it be still therapies or change it?

Thanks.
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« Reply #40 on: November 02, 2009, 03:27:35 am »

And finally the coup de grace- Team Scrubby Bubbles' super-secret sideboard tech: Mogg Salvage!!! This card is such a house against Tez. Tyler found it and the look on opponents' faces when he played it was priceless.

Since you already spilt your secrets...  Decklist?

why not meltdown?
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AmbivalentDuck
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« Reply #41 on: November 02, 2009, 02:16:41 pm »

Meltdown requires vast amounts of mana to be useful against Stax...at sorcery speed.  Against non-Workshop decks, Null Rod shuts down their artifact mana base at the same mana cost, at the same sorcery speed, but doesn't allow recovery via Yawg Will AND stops topdecked artifacts AND stops Time Vault.

The role Meltdown could fill is better served by Pulverize even in a Workshop-dominated meta since you want to be able to wipe the board despite Spheres and Wires.
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« Reply #42 on: November 10, 2009, 04:05:10 pm »

Quote
Just a question, if you had a chance to change the therapies with something else, what would you change it with in this build? Or is is the optimal card for the slot? I used to run duress in my build, but later got it cut because it was performing dismally. Then I saw your list, and since during the tourney you used it was pre-Zendikar, therapies were a good call. But for now, would it be still therapies or change it?

Just to clarify, the tourney was post-Zendikar.

I think Therapy is a GREAT call if you have an established metagame or are good at anticipating metagame change. Even if those items don't apply, Therapy is still GOOD. Typically Therapy names FoW the first time, anyway. After that you can use flashback and hit the best card in their hand for the small price of a Goblin Matron. The ability to two-for-one your opponent is great, and sometimes it's even better than that. I definately wouldn't put Duress in this deck. A Duress that reveals two FoWs is disheartening. In fact, the virtual card advantage generated by Therapy almost functions like a pseudo-draw engine.

I know that AmbivalentDuck and I disagree on how the deck best functions, but I believe that it is a silver bullet deck that best uses Therapy to force through Earwig Squad to neuter most of the tier one decks right now.
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« Reply #43 on: November 10, 2009, 04:57:18 pm »

I know that AmbivalentDuck and I disagree on how the deck best functions, but I believe that it is a silver bullet deck that best uses Therapy to force through Earwig Squad to neuter most of the tier one decks right now.
The difference is mana denial vs Therapy to clear the way for Earwig.  Therapy may be better in their meta, but I'm building for a strong Stax matchup.  If you build a mana denial deck that kills via Earwig, you can play it as control with incidental aggro.  This depends a bit on calling Earwig Squad a "control" card.  Is taking all of your opponent's win cons aggro or control?  Solid cases for both since it's functionally identical to both a 20 point Lightning Bolt and a Decree of Silence that doesn't go away: your opponent is out of the game.
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« Reply #44 on: November 10, 2009, 05:22:29 pm »

Has the printing of Sadistic Sacrament made you think that you can do this same style better in black now?
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« Reply #45 on: November 10, 2009, 05:37:45 pm »

Has the printing of Sadistic Sacrament made you think that you can do this same style better in black now?
You board Sacrament out against Stax, Earwig Squad is still a 5/3 for 1B or 2B.

Can you improve the Tez matchup by adding Dark Rits and Sacraments...maybe.  But you'd have to change the deck considerably to take advantage of it and sacrifice a lot of resilience to other "Fish" and Stax in the process.  Goblins also goldfishes much faster than traditional "fish."  The Hexmage + Depths combo is interesting, but has a vulnerability to bounce that we lack.  That said, I'm *glad* to see it in the meta: if forces Tez to run a more diverse (and less targeted) answer base.
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« Reply #46 on: November 10, 2009, 07:48:19 pm »

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Has the printing of Sadistic Sacrament made you think that you can do this same style better in black now?

Honestly, no. Adding Dark Rituals changes the deck too much. I tried going to more of a Rogue deck with Bitterblossoms, Dark Rituals, Frogtossers, Sadistic Sacraments and Earwig Squads, but it seemed really clunky. I haven't completely given up on it, but I don't think it will be viable. The problem is that Sacrament either comes down too late or you have to dedicate two cards to casting it (i.e. Dark Ritual and Sacrament). Getting the cards in your hand together is tough. Getting both to resolve is tougher. And then you have to hope that they didn't get their win conditions in hand. Those inherent limitations (combined with the BBB casting cost) makes Sacrament really tough to pull off in Vintage.
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« Reply #47 on: November 10, 2009, 08:19:35 pm »

The gist of his question is whether the idea of capping an opponent early with aggro components can better be achieved with black because of its superior disruption and draw engine, I believe.
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« Reply #48 on: November 10, 2009, 08:55:02 pm »

Thanks po po, sorry if that was unclear guys.  I just meant that with you guys stressing the control element here, and with Sacrament allowing you to cap them for the same cost as a prowled Earwig Squad, whether going mono-black (or close to it) to use the better acceleration, disruption and draw available seems better to you.
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« Reply #49 on: November 10, 2009, 09:26:10 pm »

Basically, Bitter Ordeal* is straight up better.  You invest one or two cards for an uncounterable version of Sacrament.  You only need to take two cards in most cases anyways.  You don't want to contort your manabase to support BBB and you probably don't need it.  The Tez matchup is favorable.  It's the Ad Naus, Belcher, and MUD matchups that hurt.  If you want Tez to be a bye...it starts grievously effecting your other matchups.


*You up the fetch, prospector count to support it.
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« Reply #50 on: November 11, 2009, 05:44:43 am »

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Thanks po po, sorry if that was unclear guys.  I just meant that with you guys stressing the control element here, and with Sacrament allowing you to cap them for the same cost as a prowled Earwig Squad, whether going mono-black (or close to it) to use the better acceleration, disruption and draw available seems better to you.

I would argue that the cost of an Earwig Squad is significantly less than Sacrament. Squad costs 2B instead of BBB. Don't confuse converted mana cost with actual cost. Usually Squad costs 1B and sometimes even B with Frogtossers and Warchiefs.

Bitter Ordeal is certainly better. With Prospectors, fetches, Therapies and even Lotus Petal, it is a significantly better option than Sacrament.
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« Reply #51 on: November 11, 2009, 05:59:37 am »

Basically, Bitter Ordeal* is straight up better.  You invest one or two cards for an uncounterable version of Sacrament.  You only need to take two cards in most cases anyways.  You don't want to contort your manabase to support BBB and you probably don't need it.  The Tez matchup is favorable.  It's the Ad Naus, Belcher, and MUD matchups that hurt.  If you want Tez to be a bye...it starts grievously effecting your other matchups.


*You up the fetch, prospector count to support it.

Though this is probably correct in RB goblins, because of less commitment to black and permanents heading for the graveyard anyway, I expect Sacrament to establish itself as a staple in Sui.

Bitter ordeal hasn't been that in any archetype, as far as I'm aware of.

Doomsday: It doesn't seem like Dizzle and Duck understand what you're getting at. Making a swap from goblins to a monoblack deck because of one card (sacrament) doesn't make too much sense either. While sui can run almost all disruption (hand disruption, but also up to eight poxes), goblins needs its creatures and generally functions quite differntly.

As far as match-ups go, I'm not sure on the differences between them though. Both decks can be tweaked considerably to the meta.
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« Reply #52 on: November 11, 2009, 01:34:37 pm »

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Thanks po po, sorry if that was unclear guys.  I just meant that with you guys stressing the control element here, and with Sacrament allowing you to cap them for the same cost as a prowled Earwig Squad, whether going mono-black (or close to it) to use the better acceleration, disruption and draw available seems better to you.

I would argue that the cost of an Earwig Squad is significantly less than Sacrament. Squad costs 2B instead of BBB. Don't confuse converted mana cost with actual cost. Usually Squad costs 1B and sometimes even B with Frogtossers and Warchiefs.

Bitter Ordeal is certainly better. With Prospectors, fetches, Therapies and even Lotus Petal, it is a significantly better option than Sacrament.

Then the cost of Earwig Squad is getting to prowl, having a frogtosser and warchief in play, etc. etc. That's significantly more than BBB in my opinion, since if you're going to produce three mana of a color, black is the easiest one.

You guys still misunderstand Doomsday's question. He is saying: In this current meta, if it is a good idea to cap an opponent early, isn't it better to IGNORE GOBLINS and do this in black because of Sacrament? Bitter Ordeal, in this case, is not better, especially not because of Skirk Prospector. I doubt Bitter Ordeal is better in any situation, while we're at it.
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« Reply #53 on: November 11, 2009, 05:51:30 pm »

[I doubt Bitter Ordeal is better in any situation, while we're at it.
It's your second turn (playing second). Your opponent is playing Tez.  They don't have Vault or their Tinker target in hand.  They do however have Mana Drain.  You played Skirk Prospector last turn using a Badlands.  You have a fetchland in hand.  Would you rather be holding Sacrament or Bitter Ordeal?

Earwig Squad's second costs are minimal given the strength of the Goblin tribe.  It was the undisputed deck to beat in Legacy for years.  In vintage, we actually end up trading a lot of the card advantage for faster disruption and the ability to tutor up Jester's Cap, Cruel Edict, and Goblin Bombardment.
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« Reply #54 on: November 11, 2009, 05:59:52 pm »

When testing goblins for my meta, which is only somewhat dominated by decks with few win-cons, I started up with 2 eawigs main and ended up at four. If I could play five, I would.

Bitter ordeal is definately worth consideration for 1-2 sideboard slots, as long as the deck plays prospectors, while sadistic sacrament is not.
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« Reply #55 on: November 12, 2009, 01:19:05 am »

Quote
Bitter ordeal is definately worth consideration for 1-2 sideboard slots, as long as the deck plays prospectors, while sadistic sacrament is not.
I'm just dumbfounded. I seriously don't know of a better way to word it than putting "ignore goblins" in all caps. Still, I'll try.

If you guys have found that Earwig Squad wins games, why not ignore all the setup required (which Bitter Ordeal also requires) and just play a black deck without red, without Skirk Prospectors, without goblins, with Rituals and Sadistic Sacrament? According to some posts, it seems the key to winning is capping the opponent, and other shells can make this goal easier to achieve.
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« Reply #56 on: November 12, 2009, 08:49:06 am »

Quote
If you guys have found that Earwig Squad wins games, why not ignore all the setup required (which Bitter Ordeal also requires) and just play a black deck without red, without Skirk Prospectors, without goblins, with Rituals and Sadistic Sacrament? According to some posts, it seems the key to winning is capping the opponent, and other shells can make this goal easier to achieve.

Because in certain matchup where the jester cap effect is less optimal, the 5/3 power toughness can win you the game.
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AmbivalentDuck
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« Reply #57 on: November 12, 2009, 11:00:38 am »

According to some posts, it seems the key to winning is capping the opponent, and other shells can make this goal easier to achieve.
Casting:
Given the high concentration of Goblins, "easier to achieve" comes down to ease of finding the Cap and then producing 2B or BBB for each deck.  We can regularly get off second turn Earwig if it's in our opener.  Turning goblins sideways is no more a cost than playing spells was for Psychatog.  Sacrament essentially *requires* ritual to go off before turn 3, making it a two-card combo.  Not that the ability to Duress/Thoughtseize first isn't nice...
-Winner: unclear

Finding:
We get to use a card advantage tutor: Goblin Matron.  Demonic fetches card at zero CA, Vampiric loses CA.  Oh, and we get to run 4 copies of our tutor, it comes down free (and uncounterable) off Lackey, and can chump block and turn sideways for damage.
-Winner: goblins

Likelihood of Winning when Cap Resolves:
Both take 3 cards from the library, only one has a 5/3 butt that stays in against Stax and comes down for free off Lackey.
-Winner: goblins

Quality of the rest of the Deck:
We don't produce 20/20 tokens with evasion, but we goldfish 20 damage by turn 4.  Marit Lage is theoretically a turn 3 goldfish off a Ritual, 4 without one.  Monoblack has better hand disruption, but Warren Weirding is on par with Gatekeeper, particularly given ease of tutoring, the ability to get it down turn 1/2 without support cards, and usefulness when you point it at yourself.  This comparison really comes down to Duress effects vs Vandal: Vandal rapes stax, Duress gives you a better game vs Tez and combo.
-Winner: meta dependent
« Last Edit: November 12, 2009, 11:32:22 am by AmbivalentDuck » Logged

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« Reply #58 on: November 12, 2009, 11:28:10 am »

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I'm just dumbfounded. I seriously don't know of a better way to word it than putting "ignore goblins" in all caps. Still, I'll try.

Start a new thread if you don't want to discuss goblins.

Quote
If you guys have found that Earwig Squad wins games, why not ignore all the setup required (which Bitter Ordeal also requires) and just play a black deck without red, without Skirk Prospectors, without goblins, with Rituals and Sadistic Sacrament? According to some posts, it seems the key to winning is capping the opponent, and other shells can make this goal easier to achieve.

I played such a deck at a tourney recently. I went 2-4. It's slow, plays at sorcery speed, is easily disrupted, has built-in card disadvantage without a fast win and doesn't have the tools that goblins has to switch roles. But again, that's off the subject. This is a discussion on goblins. You might find the Dark Depths-Vampire Hexmage combo threads more appropriate for what you want to discuss.
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« Reply #59 on: November 12, 2009, 03:01:56 pm »

Quote
Bitter ordeal is definately worth consideration for 1-2 sideboard slots, as long as the deck plays prospectors, while sadistic sacrament is not.
I'm just dumbfounded. I seriously don't know of a better way to word it than putting "ignore goblins" in all caps. Still, I'll try.

If you guys have found that Earwig Squad wins games, why not ignore all the setup required (which Bitter Ordeal also requires) and just play a black deck without red, without Skirk Prospectors, without goblins, with Rituals and Sadistic Sacrament? According to some posts, it seems the key to winning is capping the opponent, and other shells can make this goal easier to achieve.

Don't be dumbfounded. I understood the words coming out of your mouth. (See post 51)

Capping opponents is quite easy in goblins, actually. Between targeted discard and a solid goblin engine, you stick earwig earlier and more realiably than you could expect to stick sacrament in Sui.

However: Adding bitter ordeal in the side (or even in the main, depending on the meta) could raise the probability of capping turn two or three even further, making it a card worth discussing.
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