Not Terrible - FUN - Enchantress Deck (Looking for Improvements)

[Fraggle]

Hello All-

I'm a casual player in a slow Magic area.  I've been fishing / tuning this deck for a little while, and was wondering what your thoughts might be on its viability.

This is fast

I'd consider it still in the early stages, but I can see a hint of explosive enough potential to possibly re-vive the archtype.  I know this list is weak in disruption, but there are good enchantments to sub in to do the trick.

Here is the Mono-Green list:

9 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Land Grant
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus

Creatures
4 Magus of the Vineyard
4 Argothian Enchantress
2 Nettle Sentinel
2 Xantid Swarm

Enchantments
4 Eldimari's Vineyard
4 Earthcraft
1 Fastbond
3 Squirrel Nest
3 Enchantress Presence
4 Utopia Sprawl
2 Exploration
2 Mirri's Guile
1 Helix Pinnacle
3 Wild Growth


It plays like a typical enchantress deck with (I think) a few innovative twists.

Your win is Squirrel-Craft (Squirrel Nest + Earthcraft to make infinite 1/1 squirrels wait a turn swing for the win)

Your Alt win is Helix Pinnacle (Make said squirrels.  Use them to untap the same land over 100 times to charge Helix Pinnacle Win)

The twists:

This deck has juice.  Here is how. 

Mirri's Guile + Fetch lands / Land Grant = A few turns + this decks draw ability you can find anything you need.

Wild Growth / Utopia Sprawl - The idea here is to put all of these on 1 land, and simply untap that single land multiple times with earthcraft to get uber mana in a single turn. Not to mention the obvious w/ 2 untapped lands and a enchantress it's a cantrip (no mana loss / card count loss) .  With more enchantress's it's a draw spell.

Earthcraft = Game breaker.  It's not uncommon to have a land with 1 or more Mana enchants on it.  If you do and Earthcraft is in play you can tap your enchantress's for mana, and still use their draw ability.  Not to mention you can tap your enchantress in this case to untap the land for 2 mana, only to cast a new enchantress, and tap her to untap that same land to cast more mana enchants to draw more cards.

Nettle Sentinel / Earthcraft + any luck at all = GAME WON.  Nettle Sentinel is a creature that "may untap whenever you play a green spell"  Which means you can tap the Sentinel to untap the enchanted land to cast an enchantment (all are green) subsiquiently untap the sentinel, and draw X cards (X being the amount of Enchantress's in play) just to do it all over again.  You are in for a very big turn usually resulting in infinite 1/1 squirrels.


This deck is fun to pilot, and explosive.  I haven't tested it at all, and I know it's success hinges on it's ability to survive good disruption.  I feel it's win condition is solid, and it's SB might be its ticket to victory.  Here are a list of cards in mind.

Elephant Grass
Seal of Primordium
Mutani's Pressence
Carpet of Flowers
City of Solitude
Xantid Swarm

And Misc. Blue / Black Hate.

So with that what do people think?

[Harlequin]

I would focus the deck only on cards that help your right now, instead of long term cards.  I think this will speed up the deck alittle.  Here are card in's and out's.  No real order, just jotting them down as I think of them...

The vineyard cards are really weak in that perspective as your opponent get's to use them before you do.  I would certainly not run Magus of the Vinyard as he does almost nothing for your deck.  

I would go up to 4 Nettles and run some number of Multani's Harmony, and Mana elves like Birchlore Rangers or Herritage Druids.  

I would also think that Gaea's Touch would be a little stronger than Exploration as it goes Up one mana if you play it, play a land, and sac it.  Where Exploration only goes even.

I would also think that Concordent Crossroads would be strong, both for hasting your nettles and for hasting your army of squirls.  

Also don't run Land Grant, it can be countered - and that really hurts wehn you only have land grant.  You have no need for the storm, just run Fetches or more forests.

I'm not a fan of Mirri's Guile either, for 1 more mana you can get Sylvan Library which is a solid card.  On that concept, you might want to find room for full Moxen, if its not a budget list. 

Edge of Autumn isn't terrible, its a bit casual, but its accelleration early and free cycles while you are comboing.

[Fraggle]

Thanks for the input. Here are my responses.

The vineyard cards are really weak in that perspective as your opponent get's to use them before you do.

I agree that giving your opponent mana is never a good idea, however I feel that is important to have a mana kick to get an enchantress deck rolling.  Through testing it could likely prove out that it will never work.  I went this route because green is lacking good hand disruption, crucial to vintage.  I was hoping that this would give enchantress the early mana to get an enchantress in play to launch into the decks wheelhouse.

I would certainly not run Magus of the Vinyard as he does almost nothing for your deck. 

It has more uses than an initial look may warrant.  An early mana burst, and a creature to earthcraft, a Darksteel blocker, it's green for Nettle, and it 1 (I'll get to that)

I would go up to 4 Nettles and run some number of Multani's Harmony, and Mana elves like Birchlore Rangers or Herritage Druids.

I will certainly play with this suggestion, as well as all the others.

I would also think that Gaea's Touch would be a little stronger than Exploration as it goes Up one mana if you play it, play a land, and sac it.  Where Exploration only goes even.

I know.  I once was super excited about this cards potential in an enchantress build, but the  is a killer.  It is my belief that enchantress decks are a very precarious build.  Everything needs to be cheap.  ...everything.  The cheaper your cards are the more explosive it can be.  Unlike most good decks enchantress decks are linear.  You need an enchantress, then the enchantment for it to work. (this is why I'm unsure it it is even viable but I like them) Yet I think a good deck craftsmant can understand that each card must meet at least 3 criteria.

Is the effect worth the card slot
Is the card cost the lowest for the effect given
Is the card an enchantment

The goal (when I build them) it to get to the point where everything is "free" (cantrip)  It is true in the later game Gea's touch is a better cantrip, but it's hard for enchantress builds to get to mid game when you can only play 1 spell the 1st 3 turns because the costs are (I hate to say it) too high.

I would also think that Concordent Crossroads would be strong, both for hasting your nettles and for hasting your army of squirls.

Agreed.  I have had builds with that in there, and writing this I think that is a better fir for the exploration card slot.  I took it out momentarily because you also need a card to untap all your squirrels. (each are tapped to yield the next one)

Vitalize works well for this, but it's not an enchantment (something to keep in mind)

It would also work well with the mana elves, but I'm worried about adding another linear effect into the deck.  It would be hard enough to win with one.

Also don't run Land Grant, it can be countered - and that really hurts wehn you only have land grant.  You have no need for the storm, just run Fetches or more forests.

Agreed.

I'm not a fan of Mirri's Guile either, for 1 more mana you can get Sylvan Library which is a solid card.  On that concept, you might want to find room for full Moxen, if its not a budget list. 

I fell out of love with this card for the same reason of Gea's Touch, but I could be swayed otherwise.

THanks again.  I hope to hear more from you and others.

[Fraggle]

Seriously.  No one else?  Even if you think it's unworkable I'd like to hear why.

[silvernail]

Lets see :

9 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Land Grant
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
3 Magus of the Vineyard
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress Presence
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Root Maze
4 Earthcraft
3 Squirrel Nest
3 Ancestral Mask
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
1 Fastbond
2 Exploration
2 Mirri's Guile
1 Helix Pinnacle

This version ups the cheap enchantment count with Root Maze and a 4th Wild Growth. I also added Ancestral Mask to beat down with a Magus, Sentinel or even a squirrel token.

The reason this won't be highly competitive is due to duress and force of will, plus other decks being more explosive and inherently broken than this deck could be. Root Maze may help slow opponents down enough to get free wins, but ultimately it will depend on your metagame. Winning and having fun are not synonymous however, and the deck certainly is fun.

[Pern]

It's takes you two turns to win with Helix Pinnacle after going off.
You need to untap twice.
Altar of Dementia does it the same turn.

[Monomax]

For your concern, this is probably the best «Enchantress» deck and his name is Mister Green.

Mana 15

15 Forest

Artifact 3

1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus

Creatures 10

2 Verduran Enchantress
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Llanowar Elves

Enchantments 29

1 Goblin Bombardment
4 Earthcraft
4 Squirrel Nest
4 Enchantress Presence
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
4 Gaea's Touch
4 Elephant Grass
4 Seal of Primordium

Sorcery 3

3 Rofellos Gift


SB

City of Solitude
Carpet of Flower
Pyrostatic Pillar
Pithing Needle
Choke
Artifact-Hate
Graveyard-Hate
So on...

[Eastman]

I agree that Root Maze should probably be in there.  It is excellent disruption and you are in desperate need of it.  Plus it's an enchantment, so it does everything you need it to do. 

[Fraggle]

Hey.  Thanks everyone for the input.  Sorry I hadn't had the time lately (being exploited at work) to respond, but I'll try and sum it up here.

---The Suggestions---

Root Maze:

Excellent idea.  I had it in an initial version of the deck, but scrapped it in an effort to make a super fast explosive version of the deck.  It is apparent to me now that it (as well as more disruption) is imperative.

General question.  Would everyone agree that if I were to peruse an Root Maze a mana elf build with Concordant Crossroads would be the way to go?

Is it worth playing with Exploration, and Fastbond anymore?  Could an Instill Energy be warranted in this build?

Ancestral Mask:

I had avoided this card (and any other enchant creature cards) because I was worried about slowing this deck down with another linear effect (you need a creature in play before your enchant creature card is any good) and with running as few target-able creatures as I had I couldn't justify it.  Now with a possible mana elves build (and Elvish Sprit Guide) this could be a great win now card.  I'll certainly look to work a few in, I think I'd start at two.  It cold potentially replace the Squirrel win altogether dropping the Fastbond/Explorations for Concordant Crossroads.

Altar of Dementia

Love it.  Even though it is not an enchantment winning faster warrants the slot.  About the two turns after thing.  Isn't it possible to untap, and tap in our untap phase? ...or has that been changed since 1990-whatever

-- Force of will / Duress comment --

Force of Will is the biggest scare to this deck.  that is why I was looking into Xantid Swarm as a possible answer.  the thought was you'd either resolve it and be set.  or you would burn their FOW.  Are there other ways you can think of to win the card battle?  Hidden Gibbons?

Duress - I don't find it too scary (less Land Grant which has been scrapped from the deck)  It can't grab the engine of the deck Argothian, and as long as one is in play you should have another enchantment to not find it to be such a threat.  Thus the speed build.  Thoughtseize is a different story.


---General Thoughts ---

Should Carpet of Flowers be main decked?  At worst its a good cantrip, at best it's a game breaker.

Should I play with hidden Gibbons, and/or Hidden Herd For good Cantrips / Future creature targets?

Please keep the comments - improvements coming.


 

[Pern]

About the two turns after thing.  Isn't it possible to untap, and tap in our untap phase? ...or has that been changed since 1990-whatever

You play the combo, and hang out. End of their turn, make a bazillion guys. They're all tapped except one.

Next turn, you untap, but you don't get priority until upkeep.
Helix Pinnacle doesn't trigger unless it has 100 counters on it.
Tap some of your guys to put them there.

Next turn, you win, if you haven't lost in the meantime.
Of course, you could probably have attacked them to death last turn.

Carpet of Flowers is awesome.

[Fraggle]

Nothing too breaking here, but I thought I'd update and ask for rules help.

Xantid Swarm
Although it seemed promising to me after reading the fine print on Eldimari's effects and Carpet of Flowers the mana is granted at the pre-combat phase.  To me (and trust me I'm not too rules savvy) it appears if I were to cast anything with that mana it wouldn't fall under the protection of Xantid Swarm becasue the mana pool clears prior to combat.  Can someone please confirm this.  So I guess I'm looking at City of Solitude, Eyes of Wisent, or possibly main decking Seed Time now.

Root Maze
Is great.  Is it as effective on fetch lands as I think it is.  ...fetch come into play tapped (next turn) fetches -- and fetched land comes into play tapped (next turn) use.  If so that is amazing.

When re-designing I'm looking to forfeit speed for quality disruption.  I'm not sold on the mana elves build because it seems precarious, and to date unwarranted.  Root maze doesn't effect the function of the deck greatly.

Cards I have been pondering:

Erayo, Soratami Ascendant

I know this would mean I'd have to add blue, but it seems like a solid card and a good fit.  At first it would behave as a attacker / blocker / Earthcraft fodder, but it could transform into what I believe may be solid disruption.

Questions I have about this card are:

If the card itself is the fourth spell cast in the turn would it come into play as an as the (flipped) enchantment?  As in is it just looking for the turn count, and not the turn count since in play.

When the text says "Counter the first spell played by each opponent each turn" does that include my turn and my opponents turn?  In other words my main phase, and my opponents main phase?

...if I'm looking at Blue I might as well look at these too...
Mystic Remora
It is a cheap enchantment, and it would help against discard attacks on card count at least

Cloud of Faries
I know, I know... why?  Well, here is what I come up with.  It is a "free" card, and if my deck is working properly it could be more than free.  It does untap two lands.  With Root Maze that could be helpful, not to mention that it can untap the one land with all the Wild growths, and Utopia Sprawls on it only to follow-up to become and Ancestral Mask target, or Earthcraft a land back to life or both.

and back to green
Seal of Primordium

It just should be in there it could answer so many threats.

Wheel of Sun and Moon

I can't decide to main deck this, or just side board it.  It spells the end to all types of prevalent graveyard manipulation, and it is a relatively cheap enchantment.



Comments on these cards?


...oh, does anyone know if the act of casting an enchantment triggers the draw effect of the enchantress cards, or the resolution of the spell does.

for example if I were to try and resolve a wild growth with two enchantress's in play, and someone successfully countered it.  Do I still draw two cards?  ...and if so when.  ...are those cards eligible for a response to the counter?

    

[Diakonov]

If the card itself is the fourth spell cast in the turn would it come into play as an as the (flipped) enchantment?  As in is it just looking for the turn count, and not the turn count since in play.

When the text says "Counter the first spell played by each opponent each turn" does that include my turn and my opponents turn?  In other words my main phase, and my opponents main phase?

...oh, does anyone know if the act of casting an enchantment triggers the draw effect of the enchantress cards, or the resolution of the spell does.

for example if I were to try and resolve a wild growth with two enchantress's in play, and someone successfully countered it.  Do I still draw two cards?  ...and if so when.  ...are those cards eligible for a response to the counter?

Erayo won't trigger itself because its triggered ability won't be active until it's already in play.  As for when it counters spells, once per turn means on your turn and on your opponent's turn.

Enchantress question: You do get to draw those cards!  It doesn't matter if they counter the spell.  When you cast an enchantment spell, the enchantress' triggered ability puts an optional draw on the stack along with the spell (per enchantress).  Unfortunately, however, you will have to pass priority before you draw any of those cards, so your opponent will still be able to safely counter your spell.

[Fraggle]

Thank you so much for your response.

Erayo won't trigger itself because its triggered ability won't be active until it's already in play.

So if I understand you correctly when it resolves it's counter is at 0 and not 3 or 4   ...and it's the fourth spell of any turn regardless of who's turn it is once it is in play it is triggered.

Additionally, once triggered is is considered to be a legendary enchantment by the name of Erayo Essence and no longer a creature by the name of Erayo, Sorami Ascendant susceptible to enchantment hate and not creature hate.

If that above statement is true could you cast a new legendary creature by the name of Erayo, Soratmi Ascendant and not have it destroyed as a result of the legendary rules until it becomes an enchantment?

Thanks again.  I really appreciate your help.

[Diakonov]

Thank you so much for your response.

Erayo won't trigger itself because its triggered ability won't be active until it's already in play.

So if I understand you correctly when it resolves it's counter is at 0 and not 3 or 4   ...and it's the fourth spell of any turn regardless of who's turn it is once it is in play it is triggered.

Additionally, once triggered is is considered to be a legendary enchantment by the name of Erayo Essence and no longer a creature by the name of Erayo, Sorami Ascendant susceptible to enchantment hate and not creature hate.

If that above statement is true could you cast a new legendary creature by the name of Erayo, Soratmi Ascendant and not have it destroyed as a result of the legendary rules until it becomes an enchantment?

Thanks again.  I really appreciate your help.

The enchantment doesn't actually keep track of how many spells are played; the game itself keeps track.  This means you can play two spells, play Erayo, and once it resolves, play another spell to cause it to flip.

Your second statement is true: you can have Erayo's Essence in play and safely put Erayo, Soratami Ascendant into play.  Regardless, you need to be careful if you do this, because if four spells are played in one turn the second Erayo will flip, and then they will both be destroyed as a state-based effect.

[Fraggle]

Thank you so much for your response.

Erayo won't trigger itself because its triggered ability won't be active until it's already in play.

So if I understand you correctly when it resolves it's counter is at 0 and not 3 or 4   ...and it's the fourth spell of any turn regardless of who's turn it is once it is in play it is triggered.

Additionally, once triggered is is considered to be a legendary enchantment by the name of Erayo Essence and no longer a creature by the name of Erayo, Sorami Ascendant susceptible to enchantment hate and not creature hate.

If that above statement is true could you cast a new legendary creature by the name of Erayo, Soratmi Ascendant and not have it destroyed as a result of the legendary rules until it becomes an enchantment?

Thanks again.  I really appreciate your help.

The enchantment doesn't actually keep track of how many spells are played; the game itself keeps track.  This means you can play two spells, play Erayo, and once it resolves, play another spell to cause it to flip.

Your second statement is true: you can have Erayo's Essence in play and safely put Erayo, Soratami Ascendant into play.  Regardless, you need to be careful if you do this, because if four spells are played in one turn the second Erayo will flip, and then they will both be destroyed as a state-based effect.

Okay.  Then one last question.  While it is in the library is it considered a creature spell?  As it would you be able to search for it with Survival of the Fittest?

[Diakonov]

Thank you so much for your response.

Erayo won't trigger itself because its triggered ability won't be active until it's already in play.

So if I understand you correctly when it resolves it's counter is at 0 and not 3 or 4   ...and it's the fourth spell of any turn regardless of who's turn it is once it is in play it is triggered.

Additionally, once triggered is is considered to be a legendary enchantment by the name of Erayo Essence and no longer a creature by the name of Erayo, Sorami Ascendant susceptible to enchantment hate and not creature hate.

If that above statement is true could you cast a new legendary creature by the name of Erayo, Soratmi Ascendant and not have it destroyed as a result of the legendary rules until it becomes an enchantment?

Thanks again.  I really appreciate your help.

The enchantment doesn't actually keep track of how many spells are played; the game itself keeps track.  This means you can play two spells, play Erayo, and once it resolves, play another spell to cause it to flip.

Your second statement is true: you can have Erayo's Essence in play and safely put Erayo, Soratami Ascendant into play.  Regardless, you need to be careful if you do this, because if four spells are played in one turn the second Erayo will flip, and then they will both be destroyed as a state-based effect.

Okay.  Then one last question.  While it is in the library is it considered a creature spell?  As it would you be able to search for it with Survival of the Fittest?

It is a creature spell, so Survival should work fine with it.