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Author Topic: Icon 10-10 report - double win - vroman  (Read 11866 times)
vroman
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« on: October 11, 2009, 02:59:11 am »

I win w oath! tournament report:
http://unpopularideasclub.blogspot.com/2009/10/icon-2009-report.html
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« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2009, 10:37:39 am »

congrats, and a nice report.  i pulled a foily iona yesterday, and am thinkin about makin oath around it... might toy with this a bit.
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« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2009, 11:21:51 am »

You love that picture of you chicken winging it. I'm looking forward to more non-Magic articles on the website.

Regarding the Legacy list, Birds of Paradise is poop. You should be running 4 Intuition and 4 Mox Diamond. Only 1 Life From the Loam main is needed (you could always board another one in to combat graveyard hate). Other options for you to try:
1-3 Lorescale Coatl
1 Psychatog
1 Stinkweed Imp
X Tarmogoyf

Those have all run in and out in my similar version of this type of deck. Stinkweed Imp is actually really good, as are multiple main deck Engineered Explosives.
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« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2009, 12:56:30 pm »

So you're actually playing a deck with Force of wills now?  Wink
The list looks very tight, thanks for the report and list details in the open forum. I have been following the thread closely since it was opened.
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« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2009, 02:30:07 pm »

Nice report and win.  But, more victories on the back of Time Vault should start waking people up.  I hope.
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« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2009, 02:45:54 pm »

Nice report and win.  But, more victories on the back of Time Vault should start waking people up.  I hope.


I sold my Time Vault (beta) when I couldn't use the Fussilade/Time Vault combo in Gifts anymore. Now I have been itching to get one back and I hope you're right so I don't have to rebuy the Beta Vault.
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« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2009, 02:23:08 am »

You love that picture of you chicken winging it. I'm looking forward to more non-Magic articles on the website.

Regarding the Legacy list, Birds of Paradise is poop. You should be running 4 Intuition and 4 Mox Diamond. Only 1 Life From the Loam main is needed (you could always board another one in to combat graveyard hate). Other options for you to try:
1-3 Lorescale Coatl
1 Psychatog
1 Stinkweed Imp
X Tarmogoyf

Those have all run in and out in my similar version of this type of deck. Stinkweed Imp is actually really good, as are multiple main deck Engineered Explosives.

we'll have to go shooting again soon so I can get a more technically proficient pose captured.
4 diamonds 4 intuition 1 loam. noted.
as for aggro guys, I was thinking tombstalker. stinkweed imp is more my style though. I like abilities.
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« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2009, 11:43:49 am »

we'll have to go shooting again soon so I can get a more technically proficient pose captured.
4 diamonds 4 intuition 1 loam. noted.
as for aggro guys, I was thinking tombstalker. stinkweed imp is more my style though. I like abilities.
The thing is with that style deck you really want to Intuition as soon as possible a lot of times because you can start recurring all types of stuff ASAP, and Mox Diamond allows you to speed up the whole deck. If you expect Goblins you can also add in 1-2 Darkblast, because it dredges and kills Lackey, Confidant, etc. Stinkweed Imp just blocks Tarmogoyf and everything else, dredges, but isn't much of a clock (although I have won games where I just beat down with Stinkweed Imp and another small creature like Genesis, which is also great in these style decks as it doesn't eat up your draw like Volrath's Stronghold).
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« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2009, 08:50:57 am »

I don't get it, why is piracy charm + extirpate a better alternate kill than just fire/ice?

Congrats on the finishes!
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« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2009, 10:19:11 am »

Quote
Rd 4 vs Colin Wu - doran control
Colin scoops to me in exchange for free gas money and lunch, since he cant make the cut. we played one arduously long test game, which I lost whilst I was learning on the fly how to race/disrupt his similar recursion engines to mine. w this behind me, Im confident that intuition trumps tgoyf, and would play more efficiently in real match.

Well.

The intention of my response here is not to lecture but rather to educate.  I have quite a bit of experience judging vintage events (and non-vintage Magic).  For example, I have head judged the last several Star City Games P9 events in addition to being on staff for most of those events in its last few years, so please don’t dismiss what I have to say based on the fact that you’ve never heard of me.

Let's first clarify that it is clear that this was an unsanctioned event, given the fact that proxies were involved.  However, unsanctioned events don't actually mean that you have carte blanche to do whatever you like that you can't normally do at a sanctioned event.  Most vintage proxy tournaments adhere to DCI guidelines in every way with the exception of the support of said proxies; infractions committed at most proxy tournaments are usually still handled by the MIPG.  This is so frequently the case that it should probably be considered implicitly understood even if no specific announcement is made by the event’s TO or head judge.

So, allow me to ask- did you run the above by the event's TO or any of the judge staff to see if it would be allowed?  This is because what you are describing is a blatant example of bribery.  If you tried this at a sanctioned REL competitive event, you and your opponent should, by all rights, be DQ'd with no further ifs ands or buts about it.  Even if you had managed to get through a sanctioned event without this happening, mentioning it later in a tournament report, as you’ve done here, could easily result in an investigation concluding with disciplinary action being taken by the DCI, (e.g. a suspension).

What I am saying is that you probably shouldn't have done this.  Whether or not bribery is allowable at a particular unsanctioned event or not in which I were judging OR playing, I know that I would generally be pretty unhappy if a couple of players agreed to this, as described.

I recognize that 9 times out of 10, it simply doesn't occur to players that this kind of exchange isn't kosher, so pointing this out is not intended to be an indictment of your moral principals.  As I said, my goal here is to educate.  However, I'd urge you to think about this a little bit in order to get an understanding of why it is both a DQ-able infraction at a sanctioned event and generally pretty darn unethical behavior.  Does it really seem fair to you and within the spirit of the game to offer something outside of the tournament in exchange for a free match win?


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« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2009, 10:39:26 am »

Vroman and Colin are friends.  I've scooped to a friend before when I didn't stand much of a chance of getting T8.  I'm sure other mambers of a
"Team" have worked out prize splits before.  It may not be too savory to some people but I happens.
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« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2009, 10:50:42 am »

I understand your concern and it is an important matter so thanks for bringing it up.  However, I did the math myself and even if I had won our match (damn right I would have Very Happy) I wouldn't make it in prize.  Therefore I decided to scoop to a friend/teammate which would guarantee him a 1st place finish.  He decided to feed me on his own accord after the fact.  I know it's semantics but it wasn't "Scoop to me.  I'll buy you lunch."
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« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2009, 11:18:54 am »

Quote
Vroman and Colin are friends.  I've scooped to a friend before when I didn't stand much of a chance of getting T8.  I'm sure other mambers of a
"Team" have worked out prize splits before.  It may not be too savory to some people but I happens.

The concern here is not that he is scooping to a friend.  The concern is that, as Vroman explains, "Colin scoops to me in exchange for free gas money and lunch..."  One can conceed to his or her opponent, especially if that opponent is a good friend, but it can't be in exchange for something.

From the MIPG:

Quote
Unsporting Conduct — Bribery and Wagering
Definition
Bribery occurs when a player offers an incentive to entice an opponent into conceding, drawing, or changing the results of a match, or accepts such an offer. Refer to the Magic Tournament Rules for a more detailed description of what constitutes bribery.

Quote
I understand your concern and it is an important matter so thanks for bringing it up.  However, I did the math myself and even if I had won our match (damn right I would have ) I wouldn't make it in prize.  Therefore I decided to scoop to a friend/teammate which would guarantee him a 1st place finish.  He decided to feed me on his own accord after the fact.  I know it's semantics but it wasn't "Scoop to me.  I'll buy you lunch."

The semantics here are quite important, indeed.  If what Vroman really meant by "in exchange for" is what you are describing here, then this interaction is perfectly fine and dandy.


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« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2009, 11:39:17 am »

*Insert obligatory "this are serious format" retort.*
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« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2009, 02:27:49 pm »

Vintage players have been disqualified for these sorts of negotiations and deals, even at unsanctioned events.  This is something that PTQ and even pro players have difficulty with because the lines are difficult to see.  I don't think Abe was making any sort of assumption here, but it is important every now and again to point out, "Hey guys, scooping for cash is illegal."  To avoid even a specter of wrong-doing, if you're going to scoop or draw, please leave talks of splits and payments out of the discussion.  "I can't make prize, so I'll scoop to you." is okay.  "I can't make prize, so I'll scoop to you if you split." is not okay.  And because of the way people talk to each other, these distinctions are hard to see all the time.
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« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2009, 05:07:52 pm »

Does it really seem fair to you and within the spirit of the game to offer something outside of the tournament in exchange for a free match win?

absolutely.
we're playing for material prize. If I offered every one of my opponents $50 to scoop to me, I could waltz in to first place, but be down $200 to win ~$100 in this case. everything is tradeoffs. I have no problem whatsoever w collusion. If you are willing to give up X and opponent is willing to accept X in order to get result Z, whats the problem?
as for other players in the tourney, they still have to win to get where they are going.
lets say you are in 8 man tourney, and all 7 other players have pre-arranged a split and are actively working together against you to maximize their pool. ok just win. the other 7 players are working against you in a normal tourney as well. no matter what deals other players make in a tourney, you still have to win either way, so refuse their offers, and they cant impact you.
collusion should be legal at every event in every format.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2009, 02:26:23 am by vroman » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2009, 05:15:13 pm »

Does it really seem fair to you and within the spirit of the game to offer something outside of the tournament in exchange for a free match win?

absolutely.
we're playing for material prize. If I offered every one of my opponents $50 to scoop to me, I could watz in to first place, but be down $200 to win ~$100 in this case. everything is tradeoffs. I have no problem whatsoever w collusion. If you are willing to give up X and opponent is willing to accept X in order to get result Z, whats the problem?
as for other players in the tourney, they still have to win to get where they are going.
lets say you are in 8 man tourney, and all 7 other players have pre-arranged a split and are actively working together against you to maximize their pool. ok just win. the other 7 players are working against you in a normal tourney as well. no matter what deals other players make in a tourney, you still have to win either way, and refuse their offers, and they cant impact you.
collusion should be legal at every event in every format.
It's fine to think that way.  However, that's not the way Magic works.  That's one of the reasons why we try to point this out every time it comes up.
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« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2009, 12:30:13 pm »

It's fine to think that way.  However, that's not the way Magic works.  That's one of the reasons why we try to point this out every time it comes up.

No arguement there.  However, vroman makes an interesting point.  If everyone at a 50 person event is in collusion except me.  Am I at any greater disadvantage than if no one was in collusion?

As odd as it seems.  I think the answer is no.  I'm not at any more disadvantage or advantage either way.  Correct?
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« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2009, 10:28:16 pm »

It's fine to think that way.  However, that's not the way Magic works.  That's one of the reasons why we try to point this out every time it comes up.

No arguement there.  However, vroman makes an interesting point.  If everyone at a 50 person event is in collusion except me.  Am I at any greater disadvantage than if no one was in collusion?

As odd as it seems.  I think the answer is no.  I'm not at any more disadvantage or advantage either way.  Correct?
If anything, it seems like you'd be at an advantage in most cases, honestly, seeing as the collusion means that the best player isn't the one progressing.
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« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2009, 09:49:12 am »

Does it really seem fair to you and within the spirit of the game to offer something outside of the tournament in exchange for a free match win?

absolutely.
we're playing for material prize. If I offered every one of my opponents $50 to scoop to me, I could waltz in to first place, but be down $200 to win ~$100 in this case. everything is tradeoffs. I have no problem whatsoever w collusion. If you are willing to give up X and opponent is willing to accept X in order to get result Z, whats the problem?
as for other players in the tourney, they still have to win to get where they are going.
lets say you are in 8 man tourney, and all 7 other players have pre-arranged a split and are actively working together against you to maximize their pool. ok just win. the other 7 players are working against you in a normal tourney as well. no matter what deals other players make in a tourney, you still have to win either way, so refuse their offers, and they cant impact you.
collusion should be legal at every event in every format.

This assumes that the thing that matters is money or some equivalent.   It doesn't.    Many people, including myself, do not play Vintage because of how much money we'll make.   We play Vintage (and Magic) because we enjoy it.   I would play Vintage even if I could never come out ahead.   

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« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2009, 09:58:45 am »

then you shouldnt care if other players collude.

and I agree in principle. I dont play vintage w profit in mind, and it would be a stretch for most travel tournaments to be positive EV. however, once I am in a tournament, maximizing return is a controllable variable, which players should be allowed to negotiate.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2009, 10:09:03 am by vroman » Logged

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« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2009, 11:34:14 am »

Collusion is bad and allows for a group of decks working as a team to block other decks working as individuals. Lets say I am in the finals with Landstill and my opponent is ichorid and that player got there by going into collusion with a combo deck player on his team who agreed to split the prize once they saw my deck advance to the finals and knowing that Landstill has a terrible ichorid matchup. Their collusion means that suddenly my chances for winning the final goes from 60% to an abysmal 15%.

As a player I shouldn't have to beat a team of players, only each player as an individual. Collusion allows for teams of players to rig the top 8 and even the finals.
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« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2009, 12:59:59 pm »

Although the logic used by Vroman regarding collusion is more than sound,
the problem is that collusion conflicts with the interest
of those who want to maintain the integrity of tournament and match results
in terms of reflecting "actual" in-game play.

If collusion was legal, what would the results of a tournament mean?
Would a top 8 represent the players who won the most "actual" games of Magic
or the people who were willing to bribe their opponents?

How would transparency of tournament proceedings
be maintained for an outside observer if collusion was legal?
If a method of maintaining transparency could be implemented to take collusion into account,
would that extra effort be worth it
when not having collusion be legal is so much more efficient in terms of simplifying tournament data for interpretation?

In addition, there's the issue that allowing collusion
would turn off a lot of new players to tournament Magic
due to general values in society.

I don't think either side of this debate has a moral high-ground.
I think they just have different visions of what they would like Magic Tournaments to be and continue to be.
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« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2009, 01:34:40 pm »

How would transparency of tournament proceedings
be maintained for an outside observer if collusion was legal?
If a method of maintaining transparency could be implemented to take collusion into account,
would that extra effort be worth it
when not having collusion be legal is so much more efficient in terms of simplifying tournament data for interpretation?

why is this important? the tournament has no responsibilities except to those who paid to enter.

Quote
If collusion was legal, what would the results of a tournament mean?
Would a top 8 represent the players who won the most "actual" games of Magic
or the people who were willing to bribe their opponents?

I have played in a lot of tournaments in my life, mostly in vintage where collusion isnt heavily enforced. Still, the times where its been offered, let alone accepted, have been rare. legal collusion wouldnt change much, bc most players over-value their continued experience in the tourney, so to get concessions costs a premium. concessions will always be over priced relative to realistic expected value gained, so they will very rarely be cost effective outside finals.

Quote
Collusion is bad and allows for a group of decks working as a team to block other decks working as individuals. Lets say I am in the finals with Landstill and my opponent is ichorid and that player got there by going into collusion with a combo deck player on his team who agreed to split the prize once they saw my deck advance to the finals and knowing that Landstill has a terrible ichorid matchup. Their collusion means that suddenly my chances for winning the final goes from 60% to an abysmal 15%.

I should have elaborated on this point in more detail. your skill at magic has no impact on X vs Z match. it is a random event from your perspective who wins, regardless of the method used to determine winner, even if that method is completely non-random from perspective of within the match.
Random things happen in magic, often not in your favor.
furthermore, I would imagine that concurently w legal collusion, single elim playoffs would become hidden information. ie you would not be told who has won other matches until yours is done. but absent that information, you should still be allowed to negotiate for your best interest, or if no agreement can be reached, just play magic, as will happen in the vast majority of cases.

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« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2009, 02:11:16 pm »

Lets say I am in the finals with Landstill and my opponent is ichorid and that player got there by going into collusion with a combo deck player on his team who agreed to split the prize once they saw my deck advance to the finals and knowing that Landstill has a terrible ichorid matchup. Their collusion means that suddenly my chances for winning the final goes from 60% to an abysmal 15%.

This happens anyway.  I know that on the 2 teams I've been on AND the 1 I'm currently working with, we would all do this to you.   That's part of being on a team.  If I'm playing TPS and my opponent is playing Elves (an even worse matchup for Landstill than Dredge), then of course I'd be like "Take it down!" and concede to him.  It's part of team play.
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« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2009, 02:21:41 pm »

Lets say I am in the finals with Landstill and my opponent is ichorid and that player got there by going into collusion with a combo deck player on his team who agreed to split the prize once they saw my deck advance to the finals and knowing that Landstill has a terrible ichorid matchup. Their collusion means that suddenly my chances for winning the final goes from 60% to an abysmal 15%.

This happens anyway.  I know that on the 2 teams I've been on AND the 1 I'm currently working with, we would all do this to you.   That's part of being on a team.  If I'm playing TPS and my opponent is playing Elves (an even worse matchup for Landstill than Dredge), then of course I'd be like "Take it down!" and concede to him.  It's part of team play.


I know teams do this. Technically, they are prohibited from doing so. However, the big problem is enforcement of a no collusion rule with teams who pre-arrange that they will break the rules.

This actually might be the best reason for allowing collusion. By not allowing individuals to spontaneously form collusions and agreement you are giving an unfair advantage to teams who are pre-arranging their abuse of the rules. Either the rules need to effectively stamp out team collusion altogether or open up collusion to everybody.
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« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2009, 03:44:21 pm »

I doubt there is a single team or collection of somewhat friendly players that ever choose not to collude. They might not offer a bribe, they might be quite legal in everything (except to eliminate the open competition concept, which I am not sure is legal or not), but they will do it.

And anyway, isn't an ID some sort of collusion? At this point, this isn't about complete openness and fairness but only to a degree stipulated by the people making the rules (which is fine, but you can't argue spirit of competition when there's even one such limitation).
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« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2009, 07:04:10 pm »

Just to clarify, I'm assuming that this discussion is about this assertion:
collusion should be legal at every event in every format.

So, I apologize in advance if I'm interpreting the above more literally than it was intended.
Please correct me if you meant something different;
I'm assuming that you are saying that collusion "should" be legal,
not that it "could hypothetically" be legal,
and that you are referring to "every format",
not just unsanctioned Vintage.


Pointing out why the above assertion is incorrect is a daunting task
because, as I perceive it, the scope and subtlety
of what you have not perceived regarding this topic
is of such a high degree
that it is difficult to communicate it to you without writing a post that is far too long.

As a result, I will attempt to explain what I think may clarify my point
without going into much detail.


As I understand it,
all sanctioned tournaments are run under the DCI guidelines as part of a larger system of tournaments,
the point of such tournaments being
to provide an enjoyable experience for Magic players who like to compete.

The assumption is that Magic players who like to compete
enjoy improving their skills in "actual" Magic
and using such skills to defeat their opponents in game.

Under such assumptions, it is safe to assume that these competitive Magic players take pride in winning a tournament
because it is an accomplishment reserved exclusively for those who have proven their skills to everyone else.

However, if it becomes possible for players to practice collusion and bribe their opponents as a means of winning,
winning a tournament no longer means the winner has proven their skills to everyone else.

This will detract from the overall meaning and value of winning a tournament to competitive players.
Winning a tournament is no longer an accomplishment worth attempting since anyone can now win tournaments through bribery.

This is one reason why maintaining the integrity and transparency of tournament proceedings and results is important.
It protects the value and meaning of winning a tournament as a self-explanatory accomplishment
for those who take pride in proving their skills to everyone else.

This is why I brought up the idea
of maintaining transparency of tournament proceedings and results in a way that accounts for collusion.
If this could be done, it would solve the above problem.
Because it would be clear who colluded and who did not,
the new accomplishment for competitive players could be
to win a tournament "with zero bribes".

Keeping track of the extra variable of bribery would be more inefficient than
the current system, which does not have the extra bribery variable to take into account.

In addition, the legalizing of collusion and the resulting hullabaloo
would take energy from all involved in tournament Magic.
The DCI would have to justify their logic, as such a decision would most certainly be unpopular amongst players,
competitive tournament player expectations would have to change,
and potentially negative side effects could result
from Magic being one of the only pastimes (the only pastime?) that has legalized collusion in official tournament play.

The amount of energy needed to legalize collusion and the resulting hullabaloo
would likely be smaller within the unsanctioned Vintage community.
However, such a change would still take energy from all involved
and result in some form of hullabaloo.

So, why do the extra work of legalizing collusion
just so players can do things like bribe their opponents?
What's the upside?
And, if bribery would be, as you have reasonably suggested, very rare,
why should people go through the trouble of incorporating it as an element of tournament Magic
when it would rarely matter or effect match outcomes after being legalized?

True, collusion still could, hypothetically be legalized,
but because legalizing it would be inefficient and troublesome for the above reasons
I do not think it should be legalized
because I perceive no corresponding gain for the cost.

In addition, I'd just like to point out that discussing the legalization of collusion as a hypothetical
or as something that should be instituted without the presentation of any potential, resulting upside from doing so
is, in my opinion, a big, fat waste of time
save the fact that pointing out this discussion as a big, fat waste of time
may prevent similar big, fat wastes of time from cropping up in the future.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2009, 07:18:05 pm by TopSecret » Logged

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« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2009, 12:43:39 am »

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Winning a tournament is no longer an accomplishment worth attempting since anyone can now win tournaments through bribery.

try it. as I explained in detail, most players place irrationally high value on their continued tournament chances. it is prohibitively expensive to extract concessions from anyone who is not mathematically eliminated. Most players cannot be bought off for anything close to what the relative value of winning that match is, except for finals where the results are 100% clear cut.
How much would it take for you to just flat concede round 1? I mean obviously there is some price you cant logically refuse. like if I was offered a grand to concede rd 1, clearly I would, bc as much as I savor the glory of winning vintage tourneys, I have bills to pay and $1k is too much to pass up. but no one would ever offer that, bc it gains them so little. would $100 do it? maybe at a mox tourney, but I would probably turn that down rd 1 of say a power 9 event. is my expected value sitting in rd 1 of a p9 tourney more than $100? maybe just barely at best, and I could collect that at no effort from this offer, but I refuse bc I have irrationally high expectations from entering this tourney, just like every other player. Im not using irrational derogatively here, just that expectations do not always exactly match mathematical reality.
the point is that it will never be cost effective to buy ones way through a tournament. collusion only comes up in very certain instances where the results are easy to predict and assign value to in a way obvious to both players, and if they are both risk-averse, a comfortable arrangement can be reached. these are outlier situations. the transparency of touranments will not be impacted to any detectable degree.
also, if YOU refuse splits on principle, then tournament wins will always mean something to YOU. and any player who feels the same will be in the same boat. an unscrupulous moneybags cannot "buy your win away from you" if you just insist on playing. as virtually everyone would continue to do in virtually every situation.
so I have the opposite position
there is NO downside, and the minor upside of letting players maximize their value in a few select situations where it is clearly in their best interest to make a deal.
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« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2009, 10:41:12 am »

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there is NO downside, and the minor upside of letting players maximize their value in a few select situations where it is clearly in their best interest to make a deal.

This is irrelevant, though.  The point of a Magic tournament is that in theory the best player wins.  "Maximizing your value" means staying home and going to work instead of playing.  Wizards, TOs, and probably most of the players have no interested in "maximizing" anyone's value.  So what if it would be nice if people would pay you to concede?  It's not germane to the idea of a game of MAGIC skill.  There's a reason why no Magic cards involve feats of strength or speed.  That has nothing to do with the card game.  Neither does collusion.  That's an entirely different skill, one that is left out of Magic purposely.
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