serious rod/chain control

[shroomy2dope]

I was hoping to get some feed back on this list. it seems to be a solution deck for my metagame.  my environment is heavy with tps, dredge,dragon,welder based control, oath, blood moon red deck, some stax.   fish isn't very common, but it's here. non basics and artifacts around every corner.
so, this is my list, heavy mana denial and a good bit of lockdown.  the 75 slots seem good but the placement between maideck/sideboard needs some work. definately looking for card suggestions. more time vault hate would be nice.



creatures

4 hypnotic spectors

enchantment

4 chain of mephostopholes
4 planar void

artifact
4 null rod
3 the rack
1 mox jet
1 black lotus

spells

4 durress
4 thought seize
4 hymn to tourach
4 sink hole
2 mind twist
1 yawgmoth's will
1 demonic tutor
1 grim tutor
+1 diabolic edict (edit)
lands

1 stripmine
4 wasteland
12 swamp


sideboard

4 leyline
3 abyss
3 diabolic edict
2 nether void
3 swamp


thats about it  any suggestions would be appreciated

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I think you need more creatures to kill your opponent instead of just Hippies+The Rack.  Why aren't you running Dark Confidant to cheaply draw cards while beating down?  Also try considering bigger creatures to provide a faster clock, such as Phyrexian Negator.

Chains of Mephistopheles isn't as good anymore now that Brainstorm and Thirst for Knowledge are restricted.  Most decks are running Dark Confident to draw cards, which is unaffected.  Chains often will hit only 4 cards in a Tezz list: Ancestral, Brainstorm, Ponder, Thirst for Knowledge.  So I don't think Chains is really worth running.  Why don't you run Edict maindeck to kill creatures and Tinker targets?

Mind Twist is not very good because it takes too much mana to be effective.  Almost any creature would be better than The Rack.

[Zombie Shakespeare]

Why are you not running Dark Ritual? It along with Dark Confidant, as Gandalf mentioned, seem like they'd be tremendously helpful in accelerating your game plan. Tombstalker as a two-of might also be a consideration. Or Bitterblossom.

Some other thoughts:

Your mana base looks really thin. You should probably be running at least 22 mana not counting Dark Rituals.

Additionally your deck needs more of a draw engine otherwise it will be living off the top of your deck once you've played out your opening hand. Confidant can help in this regard as can Night Whisper.

How do you deal with opposing creatures game one?

Why run Planar Void main instead of simply running Leyline in the main?

Pithing Needle and Sadistic Sacrament would help against most of your metagame.

Vampiric Tutor should also be in there.

Overall it looks like your deck is depending too much on hitting all your opponent's key cards via Duress/Thoughseize/Hymn/Chains before they become relevant and that won't always work. You need to plan accordingly for top decks or them going broken on turn one.

[jaeppel]

The biggest problem in this list is that chains does nothing proactive.  You are using it entirely to 'counter' draw spells, which may or may not be there depending the matchup.  If you were to run something like Howling Mine or Anvil of Bogardan, then your chains actually do something about winning the game.  Anvil/Chains is a hard lock, and with your own confidant or squee, you can jump over your own chains.

I still dont think that the anvil/chains.dec deck is any good anymore, but it could be a fun one to try out.  It was played once upon a time, im sure you can find a list on tmd.  If you arent running chains to benefit your own deck's gameplan, its simply not worth running.  If you were to cut the chains and void and replace with bodies then you have more of a standard suicide package.

Of course the point of this thread is chains, so better to leave the chains and cut something else for lock parts.  Planar void could be anvil of bogardan.  Then replace spectors with Confi.  Then squeeze in some squees.  Like i said, i dont think such a deck would be very competitive, but at least then you have an actual proactive function for the chains.  Reactive cards belong in the sideboard.

[shroomy2dope]

Chains of Mephistopheles isn't as good anymore now that Brainstorm and Thirst for Knowledge are restricted.  Most decks are running Dark Confident to draw cards, which is unaffected.  Chains often will hit only 4 cards in a Tezz list: Ancestral, Brainstorm, Ponder, Thirst for Knowledge.  So I don't think Chains is really worth running.  Why don't you run Edict maindeck to kill creatures and Tinker targets?

.

The biggest problem in this list is that chains does nothing proactive.  You are using it entirely to 'counter' draw spells, which may or may not be there depending the matchup.  If you were to run something like Howling Mine or Anvil of Bogardan, then your chains actually do something about winning the game.  Anvil/Chains is a hard lock, and with your own confidant or squee, you can jump over your own chains.


.

cards chain locks out

brainstorm
ancestral recall
ponder
thirst
wheel of fortune
windfall
mystic remora
meditate
timetwister
yawgmoth's bargain
sensai's divining top's draw effect
library of alexandria
deep analysis
mull drifter
rebuild's cycle effect
disrupt
skull clamp
frantic search
gush
stand still

and oh yeah, the big one...BAZAAR

the list of relevant draw spells is pretty big.  I know not all of those get much play but still.  chain can cripple a deck because it severely limits your options. i'ts really maindecked to help win first turn against combo. that's a match i'd usually lose without chain.

Why run Planar Void main instead of simply running Leyline in the main?

because this deck doesn't accelerate well, or mulligan well, but it does, or at least has been, playing well if you work around that.  planar void costs B any time. if you don't catch leyline on the draw the it costs 2BB

Additionally your deck needs more of a draw engine otherwise it will be living off the top of your deck once you've played out your opening hand. Confidant can help in this regard as can Night Whisper.

true i think i'm going   -2 mindtwist,  -1hippie,  -1rack,  +4 confidant

Why don't you run Edict maindeck to kill creatures and Tinker targets?

sorry i do run one. the list i gave is only 59  i'll edit.   thats why i run two tutors.      without confidant vampiric sucks. now i,ll try to work in that.  I own a seal too.

I like winning with rack. it's classy and old school and with chain/hippie on board they die pretty fast and regular there hate has to be pretty much top deck so they can really only answer one problem at a time. F.O.F kind of sucks, but i usually keep a hymn back.  I don't think beat down is the way to go. it would screw up my creature hate board (abyss) and by the time i dedicated enough slots to it this would be a different deck.  I'm really going for lockdown board win with rack.

[shroomy2dope]

I still dont think that the anvil/chains.dec deck is any good anymore, but it could be a fun one to try out.  It was played once upon a time, im sure you can find a list on tmd.

anvil/chains wouldn't that be counter productive?  doesn't that just give them more options to remove my lock down cards?

[Wagner]

I don't think that Chains is good right now either. Let's check your list of cards it hoses and what is does in practice.

brainstorm (restricted)
ancestral recall (restricted)
ponder (restricted, only -1 card)
thirst (restricted)
wheel of fortune (not played much)
windfall (not played much)
mystic remora (affects it, but no card disadvantage, they get card quality)
meditate (not played much)
timetwister (not played much)
yawgmoth's bargain (good, but a chance you lose anyway if they get it in play)
sensai's divining top's draw effect (minor effect, people don't draw a lot with it)
library of alexandria (good)
deep analysis (good, but not played much)
mull drifter (not played much)
rebuild's cycle effect (people that run Rebuild will not cycle it against a deck with Null Rod)
disrupt (not played at all)
skull clamp (good)
frantic search (not played at all)
gush (not played much)
stand still (not played much)

So, out of your list, you hose those well
yawgmoth's bargain
skull clamp
library of alexandria
deep analysis

Two of these are restricted, and with 15 discard effects main deck, Library should not be a problem.

As for Bazaar, the decks that run it want to get cards to the graveyard, if would be suicidal against Ichorid and Stax if there is a Welder in play.

It was a powerhouse with Thirst and Brainstorm unrestricted, but right now, they are, meh.

[shroomy2dope]

chain plus planar void is great.  my enviorment doesn't play much fish beyond that what doesn't chain effect.  chain is great have you ever tried it or is this just speculation.   it even has psychological ramifications you think you need to answer it because it sounds intimidating.  not drawing any cards beyond your first and anyways even though most draw spells are slightly played almost every deck plays some.   why does every body hate chain it's two mana and 4 slots that somewhat disrupts every deck.  anyways i was trying to get commentary on a rod/chain deck. so holla back if you got any ideas on a rod/CHAIN deck.   peace

[Tha Gunslinga]

What DOES Chains affect?  Recall and Thirst, but those are restricted.  Mystic Remora, I guess, but not the first draw if it's on the opponent's turn.  The best draw engine right now seems to be Confidant, and it doesn't touch that.  I never found Chains to be playable even when Gush and Thirst were unrestricted, and it's pretty bad now, I think.  It also doesn't touch at least half the decks out there.  Maindecking it is definitely wrong.

[Zombie Shakespeare]

We don't hate Chains. We just don't think its really all that amazing in the current environment. Yes it hits some cards that all decks are playing right now but the vast majority of the cards that see play on a regular basis are restricted. Most Tez lists run only SIX of the cards on your list. All as one-ofs.

I've tested decks built around Chains before Brainstorm or Thirst were restricted and even then it just never seemed to make an impact in testing. IF it resolved the blue decks just sat back and countered your key threats and waited to topdeck a tutor to get their bounce spell. The current environment is much faster than the deck you have presented. You have to assume that at least some of the time the blue decks are going to get an earlier start than you and by the time you draw and cast Chains it might very well be moot. Plan accordingly.

[shroomy2dope]

ok maybe i'm just stubborn and idealistic so what match ups should chain come in against and what shouldn't it.    actually i suppose the better question is in the numbers.  how many cards should a lockdown card effect before it becomes main deckable. is there a general rule?  maybe different stats for a set and for a single to tutor for? 

[Yare]

ok maybe i'm just stubborn and idealistic so what match ups should chain come in against and what shouldn't it.    actually i suppose the better question is in the numbers.  how many cards should a lockdown card effect before it becomes main deckable. is there a general rule?  maybe different stats for a set and for a single to tutor for?  

None. Chains is a bad call against pretty much any deck in this metagame because most decks are not running enough draw cards. Dark Confidant dodges it. There are just better choices for your maindeck and your sideboard.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

The one type of deck I could see Chains being worth while against is a deck full of draw 7s, like Steel City Vault or some combo builds, because it would stop them from refilling their hand to recover from your discard--outside of mana disruption, black has no way to deal with topdecked threats like this.  I wouldn't run more than 1 or 2 in the board to tutor for, though, and I'd only bother siding them against those kinds of decks.

[shroomy2dope]

we'll try this  -3 chain +1 pithing needle, +1 vampiric, +1swamp which makes the maindeck look like this:


creatures
3 hypnoyic
4 dark confidant

enchantment
4 planar void
1 chain of m.

spells
4 thoughtseize
4 duress
4 hymn
4 sinkhole
1 vampiric tutor
1 demonic tutor
1 grim tutor
1 yawgmoths will
1 diabolic edict

artifacts
4 null rod
2 rack
1 black lotus
1 mox jet
1 mox jet
1 pithing needle

land
1 stripmine
4 wasteland
13 swamp

my board is still under revision

i'm realy fond of planar void . i'd like to maindeck 2 more edicts without losing those. or maybe innocent blood.