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Author Topic: [Deck Discussion] G/W Beats  (Read 22415 times)
Guli
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« Reply #60 on: November 06, 2009, 05:47:14 am »

I know that worldly tutor can be a strong move against for example an active mana drain. You can break the situation with tutor>shusher and move on from there.

Quote
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
4 Null Rod

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Gaddock Teeg
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Vexing Shusher
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Aven Mindcensor
3 Ethersworn Canonist

Lands (20):
1 Flooded Strand
2 Forest
3 Horizon Canopy
1 Plains
4 Savannah
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

SB:
3 Oxidize
3 Pithing Needle
2 Ray of Revelation
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Wheel of Sun and Moon

The only card that I have a question about in this list is Knight of the Reliquary. When it came out fresh from the set I tested it in decks with loams and bazaars. He usually had a big body for 3 mana but I ran things that helped him out. (bazaar, loam) How big does he usually get in your games with this list? I am asking this because you don't have anything that answers Tinker except an early Aven Mindcensor. The knight could be big enough to pull his weight against Tinker. At least then you have Aven as a preventive answer and Knight and maybe Tarmogoyf as post-tinker answers. (not counting SB) Your thoughts?

Usually the aggro control decks run so many bears that handle control&combo very well, knight + tarm might be the necessary muscle power to even things out in other match ups while serving as walking time walks in general, not counting dredge. If we look at the list of Tobi, Null rod, canonist, gaddock, aven, shusher and pridemage are all good cards against blue and there is enough acceleration to count them as 1 drops. This list should be able to drop a 2 power bear on turn 1 against fast decks. Then the other side of the story is noble hierarch, knight, tarm which are good in those more long term match ups like stax and vs aggro.

I find your list nicely balanced. It has acceleration, various disruption methods and raw power. Let us know how the tutors work out. You will be investing mana and tempo to actually tutor so this means you won't be dropping a bear or null rod. I am curious if it is worth it.





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Mantis
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« Reply #61 on: November 06, 2009, 06:08:41 am »

I fail to see how Wordly Tutor for Vexing Shusher is a good play against Mana Drain decks. You waste 2 turns, 1 casting the Wordly Tutor and 1 casting the Shusher, where the Drain player can just set up their win and you do nothing to disrupt them. It's just such a huge tempo loss to deal with Mana Drain, that you are not even 100% sure they have, I would much rather just play Thoughtseize and take the Drain instead of going through all those hoops to achieve very little.
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Guli
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« Reply #62 on: November 06, 2009, 06:26:59 am »

I fail to see how Wordly Tutor for Vexing Shusher is a good play against Mana Drain decks. You waste 2 turns, 1 casting the Wordly Tutor and 1 casting the Shusher, where the Drain player can just set up their win and you do nothing to disrupt them. It's just such a huge tempo loss to deal with Mana Drain, that you are not even 100% sure they have, I would much rather just play Thoughtseize and take the Drain instead of going through all those hoops to achieve very little.
This is simply not true. They also lose tempo because they wait for you to play something. You move around them. I don't know if you ever faced shusher while holding counter magic? It is a very effective play if they leave 2 blue open and pass the turn. You aren't wasting 2 turns, you are breaking the board situation by getting exactly what you need. They can choose to counter the tutor, which would be the correct choice if they know you are running Shusher, but then you are also happy, they are tapped out, drained your 1 cc spell instead of one of your bombs. Then they need force of will to stop your teeg or null rod.

That being said, this would not be enough too justify the addition of worldly tutor. It would be too "situational".
« Last Edit: November 06, 2009, 06:35:44 am by Guli » Logged

Tobi
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« Reply #63 on: November 06, 2009, 06:56:56 am »

Shusher and Canonist are cards with situational advantages. Sometimes they do nothing but be 2/2, sometimes they are the bomb. So it makes perfect sense to cut one of each for 2 Worldly Tutors. Of course, the Tutor costs a turn and a card, but it is worth it if you can get the man you need. Additionally, you may now add some sort of creature toolbox so you can get better answers out of your Tutor. Like having a True Believer, Children of Korlis, Goldmeadow Harrier or Tracker (my favourite  Wink ). Not sure if this is the best way to play this deck, but at least it makes you less dependable on your topdecks.

Knight was very good. Big guys are good versus Fish and block Inkwells. Usually gets 8/8+. Can be used as card-drawing wall by EOT fetching Canopy, or just getting those Waste/Strip you need. Thinking about one or two Mishra's Factory so you can fetch more beats, or even Treetop Village.
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Guli
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« Reply #64 on: November 06, 2009, 07:54:58 am »

Shusher and Canonist are cards with situational advantages. Sometimes they do nothing but be 2/2, sometimes they are the bomb. So it makes perfect sense to cut one of each for 2 Worldly Tutors. Of course, the Tutor costs a turn and a card, but it is worth it if you can get the man you need. Additionally, you may now add some sort of creature toolbox so you can get better answers out of your Tutor. Like having a True Believer, Children of Korlis, Goldmeadow Harrier or Tracker (my favourite  Wink ). Not sure if this is the best way to play this deck, but at least it makes you less dependable on your topdecks.

Knight was very good. Big guys are good versus Fish and block Inkwells. Usually gets 8/8+. Can be used as card-drawing wall by EOT fetching Canopy, or just getting those Waste/Strip you need. Thinking about one or two Mishra's Factory so you can fetch more beats, or even Treetop Village.

First on the knight toolbox, I would not overextend with mishra and treetop. Wasteland for mana denial, Canopy for draw sounds enough. Adding more tools is not needed, waste and canopy are good enough on their own, knight makes them better plus knight answers a lot match ups making him good enough on its own as well, problem solved.

It seems to make perfect sense but it isn't. The problem is when you are facing combo that runs bounce effects you don't have the time to tutor up canonist. I said the tutr>shusher was good to break mana drain early on, or at least not walk into it. Tutor>Canonist could be too late in many situations. I could see Tutor>Knight/Tarm be a good play as well against aggro when the attrition war is about to end, both sides used up their fuel and neither side has a clear advantage, tarm/knight can be back breaking then. Another example versus Ichorid (thinking out of the box), say you run Jailer and you tutor for him. On paper it looks nice, it is top decked so they can't cabal/unmask it and it seems pretty fast (turn 2) to shut down dredge mechanic. I tested this with someone from this forum online. It was still not quick enough in most cases to really be worth it. I think addressing dredge in the side is still a little bit better when evaluating every factor.

My conclusion for now is that Tutor>Shusher is strong against mana drain. But if you run black then duress/thought is better overall. The tricky part is without running black why run tutors? And black has the best answers vs dredge. I would not go for tutors in G/W Beats even if it seems logical on paper. You need to play the tempo game more than any other deck, no real draw engine, no way to really come back once behind. So staying ahead and making every drop count right there right now is key. In what match ups is canonist and shusher truly dead anyway? Dredge and Stax I guess looking at the list and sb? Your match against stax isn't that bad at all in my opinion. And dredge I explained above, use SB. But when you DO need canonist, you don't have the luxury to tutor for him. Maybe you can do this:

2x Shusher
2x Wordly Tutor
3x Canonist
2x Knight

The knight isn't really that relevant early game. It is more of a mid game beat stick with utility that works well for long term games. Shusher is versus mana drain and you could get it with tutor so you have 4 in deck when the situation is present. I would not cut any canonist and if you do cut them all and find another way than tutor>canonist to deal with combo.
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Tobi
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« Reply #65 on: November 06, 2009, 08:01:08 am »

Quote
2x Shusher
2x Wordly Tutor
3x Canonist
2x Knight

That's more or less where I ended after some testing  Wink
Needed at least 3 of those Canonists, since against combo you need then quickly. So it is true what you say, Worldly for Canonist is too slow sometimes.

Not more than two Knights are needed. I even thought about cutting one Goyf, since most of the time he does nothing but beat for 3 or 4. Currently evaluating replacing Goyfs for Jotun Grunts.

Btw: Tutor Shusher is the perfect answer to Chalice@2
« Last Edit: November 06, 2009, 08:04:10 am by Tobi » Logged

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« Reply #66 on: November 08, 2009, 11:50:06 am »

Well, I was wondering, since this deck already plays horizon canopy, wasteland, strip mine and enlightened tutor.

Why don't we ad crucible of worlds to the mix since it makes every single one of the mentioned cards a hell of a lot better

Canopy becomes a draw engine, wasteland/strip mine lock you opponent out (even faster with null rod and choke in here)), and well E.tutor just gets another cool target.

Just throwing it out there, since i don't see a reason not to run it (no real danger of cool things so...)

Greetzzzz,
Robin.
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Gurra
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« Reply #67 on: November 08, 2009, 06:08:43 pm »

In tournament play, it's basically only saved Teeg from Pyroclasm.  It was relevant, but not game-breaking.  In testing however, I found it to be absolutely golden against Oath.  Oathing up Iona kinda sucks when Karakas is on the table.

Were I to fit the 4th horizon canopy in, it would occupy the space of one of the savannahs or the second forest rather than Karakas.

Thanks for the answer. I suspected I there was some big legendary enemy creature to bounce, but couldn't come up with which it was. I will have to try it out.


Concerning Worldly tutor:
I think the tempo loss and card disadvantage requires that the card you tutor up is a bomb and either wins or saves the game for you, like choke or seal of cleansing can do. I'm not sure if the the creatures you will tutor up can do that consistently. I'm not entirely convinced Enlightened Tutor is the right choice either, but it is growing on me. The right way to go might also be to accept that a turn one tinker is a game loss and optimizing your chances of stopping your opponent from playing a turn two or turn three tinker.

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Stormanimagus
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« Reply #68 on: November 11, 2009, 04:46:50 pm »

Hey guys. So I don't truly know which approach is better for this deck:

1. Streamlined 4-Of Style
2. Some 2 & 3 ofs to make room for E. Tutor + 1-of tutor package.

Here's a list that is very Similar To Kowal's that fits the criteria for #2.

GW Beats

Land (23):
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Karakas

Artifacts (10):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
4 Null Rod
3 Thorn Of Amethyst

Artifact Creatures (2):
2 Ethersworn Canonist

Creatures (15):
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Aven Mindcensor

Legendary Creatures (5):
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Kataki, War’s Wage

Enchantments (3):
1 Seal Of Cleansing
2 Choke

Instants (2):
2 Enlightened Tutor






SB:
3 True Believer
1 Krosan Grip
1 Vexing Shusher
2 Wheel Of Sun And Moon
2 Samurai Of The Pale Curtain
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
2 Swords To Plowshares
1 Knight Of The Reliquary
1 Crucible Of Worlds

ORRR. . .

We could go for Consistency Strictly. Here's what that list might look. . .

Storm's GW Beats

Land (24):
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Karakas

Artifacts (11):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
4 Null Rod
4 Thorn Of Amethyst

Artifact Creatures (3):
3 Ethersworn Canonist

Creatures (19):
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Vexing Shusher
4 Aven Mindcensor
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Knight Of The Reliquary

Legendary Creatures (3):
3 Gaddock Teeg

SB
1 Vexing Shusher
2 Kataki, War’s Wage
3 Pithing Needle
3 Wheel Of Sun And Moon
3 Swords To Plowshares
3 True Believer


There are a couple cards that I'd like to know if people still think are good and why:

1. Gaddock Teeg = Post Gush Era isn't this a bit Narrow?

2. Aven Mindcensor = Seems like players know how to play around this more now and that it often whiffs as they find something relevant with their Tutor/Fetch off the top 4. The only time this seems good is against Tinker and can't we just run Tariff in the SB if we have to?

Peace,

-Storm


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