First time playing Vintage, need some things to get me started

[Morbid-]

So, I want to first start by introducing myself. I'm Mark, and I have been playing Magic on and off for quite some time (in college now and started in middle school). I prefer Legacy and recently came back to the game a few months ago, but this is the first time that the opportunity has arisen for me to play Vintage. I've always steered clear of this format, not because of any particular disliking, but because it was (and still is) expensive to obtain any of the staples. Hell, it's pretty difficult for me to pick up even fundamental Legacy staples at times. I have an opportunity to play Vintage in a little over three weeks from now, at an unlimited Proxy event. No, I don't expect to sniff T8 or anything, but I don't want to go 0-2 across the board either. This is an excellent opportunity for me to at least take a peek into this format.

That said, I understand what it requires for me to switch over to a new format, and am willing to learn things in crunch time. One of the obvious things that I notice first is that Vintage has a ridiculous clock, that is matched with what seems like unlimited power in the cards (duh, that's why there's a B/R list). I am also a believer that playing certain archetypes in 'format A' can lead to a little less steep learning curve for the same archetype in 'format B.' So, being a UWb Landstill player in Legacy, how can I translate my playing ability to Vintage? How can I use what I know to reach a better understanding? I'm not even sure what to expect across the table. If anyone has advice to share, that would be great. Thanks,


--M

[JACO]

Welcome aboard. The main thing that you have to realize in Vintage is that the window of opportunity and power level of cards are unlike any other format. The window of opportunity can shift with every play decision, how mana is tapped, and each card seen and drawn, and the effects of that can quickly decide the game (example, top deck Time Vault, Yawgmoth's Will, Tinker, Bazaar of Baghdad, etc.). Your opponent can have a hand full of gas and you could have one card in hand, but if you have one card in hand and draw for the turn, then play a threat and your opponent Mana Drains it, then you play another threat and they're unable to tap for another Mana Drain for example, you could steer the game back to your favor because of the sheer power level of the cards and the opportunity created.

You have to learn to read what your opponent's lines of play are, and then calculate your options in response to those every step of the way. There are seemingly an unlimited variation of decks (as in Legacy), but once you understand the patterns and commonly played cards you will understand the regular lines of play in specific scenarios.

Just because you haven't played the format doesn't mean you can't do well, especially if you have a Legacy background. Familiarize yourself with the top decks and strategies of Vintage by reading the Tournament Results forum and Morphling.de to look at recent Top 8's, and then hone in on what you want to achieve in the tournament. You can have confidence and expect to win if you tread carefully along the way.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

The main archetypes are as follows:

Vault Decks (Tezz and Steel City Vault),
Non-Vault Drain Decks (Drain Tendrils, Painter's Servant)
Stacks (5c, R/B, Mono R),
Workshop Aggro, MUD
Oath (Hellkite, Iona with Kroscan Reclamation and Vault+Key),
Fish (BUG, BUW, UWG, 4c, 5c),
Dredge (Manaless, Mana, Fatestitcher, Force of Will),
Beats (GW, BGW, RG, RGB, Suicide Black),
Combo (TPS, Ad Nauseam, Dragon--with possible Tezz or Oath board)

I have tried to err on the side of inclusion; some of these are less common than others but I have seen nearly all of them in t8s recently (It's just meant as a quick summary so I hope no one flames me for this).  If you learn all of these decks you will be familiar with almost everything you can expect to face in a Vintage tournament.  In addition to this, however, you should try to learn how the decks interact with one another, both before and after sideboarding (sideboards vary a great deal, so this can be difficult).  At the very least, try to play a few games with each of the decks, even if only on magic workstation, because this will help you get a feel for how they work in a way that looking at decklists cannot substitute for.  I often find that even many experienced players fail to realize the dynamics of a certain matchup simply because they've never sat on the other side of the table.

If you are asking mainly about deck choice, as it seems you may be regarding your original post, I would suggest that you pick up a a Vintage control deck.  As results demonstrate Tezz is the best deck in the format right now, so you might want to play that--it combines the control power of draw and counter spells with a stupidly cheap instant win combo, so I don't think that you would have that much difficulty learning how to play it.  The hardest challenge with Tezz is probably building your sideboard to best deal with the decks you expect to face, because there are lots of different options and it depends entirely on the metagame.

[Morbid-]

@JACO: Thanks, I'm in the middle of studying for some exams and every time I take a break I head over to the Reports forum to read into some stuff.

One of the things that get me about this format are the Restricted cards and thus the singleton nature of the decklists, but it's pretty easy to categorize them into roles (Card Draw, Discard, etc). Also, with the availability of so many of the Tutors, it seems okay to run some things as a 1-of, which I'm hardly used to. It seems to be the case that most decks that are running in general have a pretty defined "shell" of Power9 (Timetwister not that prevalent), FoW, Tutors, and Tinker --> DSC, SoSW, or Inky. I also notice that Tendrils is a kill condition in a lot of decks that it normally would not appear to be, probably a Plan B in case the first part gets disrupted (or rather, probably Plan A and the other way around). I also noticed a card that I doubt has seen much of Legacy... Mystic Remora? It looks great in this metagame of mana artifacts, Tutors, Draw, etc.


@Gandalf: you posted right as I was about to ask in this reply

I took a look at deckcheck.net (similar function to Morphling.de, no?) for a better idea. Mystic Remora control looks fun to play. Thanks for breaking down some of the more popular decks, I'll definitely take a look. And yes, the SB'ing seems to be a lot more diverse with the amount of tutoring options available to the player. My plan was definitely to hop on MWS and see how matches go.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Tendrils in Mana Drain decks usually kills in combination with Yawgmoth's Will, which makes it very easy to get to lethal storm.  Whether it is the main plan or the back-up plan depends on personal preference or play style.

Remora Control is a good choice.  Just make sure you keep in mind that you should either play Dark Confidant or have several answers for him if you don't, since you do not want to be sitting on Remora while they are beating down on you and drawing cards.  And of course Remora is better in a meta with a lot of Control and Combo.

Edit: I forgot to mentions Elves! as a deck archetype.  It is not that common but if you do play against it, just counter their Skullclamps and Glimpse of Nature and all they can do is beat down with 1/1s.

[TopSecret]

From your posts, it sounds like you might be suited for a more disruptive deck with more 4 'ofs and less combotasticness.
If so, you may be better off picking up something like Fish or Beats (or certain straight forward Stax lists).
If you do opt for a more disruptive deck, just make sure you still understand the expected matchups and the combotasticness of the other decks you aren't playing,
'cause even if you're not playing the broken singleton decks, you will still have to react to and play against them.

PS: Landstill does top 8 once in a great while, although trying to make it work in Vintage in such short order is probably a waste of time.
Just mentioning it for future reference, since it could be a cheap deck in a 10-15 proxy tourney, if you wanted to go through the trouble of porting it.

[Morbid-]

Beats looks hilarious in the meta, and I've talked to friends about Mono Merfolk list with Null Rod/Chalice in the main. Normally, this is what I would run, but to me it feels like I would be 'cheating' a little bit by not getting the best Vintage experience. Landstill is definitely out, although I would love to run it, I believe the UR version is the one that is more potent in Vintage, but I don't know if the days of Mana Drain --> Disk are still there (that would be excellent).

I actually own some Bobs, which was another attractive part of running this deck, as I know its power in Legacy and obviously here. This is actually the list I've been looking at:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=26647

I took some time (in between studying) to take a look at the card selections. It's crazy, this same list (with small variants) placed T3 all three spots (same team members, no doubt).

But this list runs the FoW package and Bob + Remora to fuel the draw engine. The other thing I like about the list is Top! It's already a ridiculous card with Bob, with Remora, etc, should be even more insane, especially because some of the Tutors here place cards on Top rather than in your hand. I also took a moment to look at Repeal. Holy. Repeal a Mox? Play it again? +3 Storm?



Edit: Oh, by the way, does Spell Pierce have a place in Vintage? Seems like there's insane potential, as everything is literally noncreature, and early mana/tempo is pretty important.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Edit: Oh, by the way, does Spell Pierce have a place in Vintage? Seems like there's insane potential, as everything is literally noncreature, and early mana/tempo is pretty important.

Many people have been having success with Spell Pierce lately, in Tezz but also particularly in the Iona Vault/Key Krosan Reclamation Oath deck, because it helps win early counter wars (usually over Ancestral) in the control mirror.  It is also pretty good against Stax and combo, but weak against Fish and Beats for obvious reasons.

Repeal is also useful for bouncing your own Confidants if you get low on life, though this is more important in Tezz decks where you go infinite with Vault/Key.  In this deck it is especially useful because you can also use it to bounce your Remora and then replay it when it gets high on counters.

Regarding the sideboard of the deck you linked: Now that Zendikar is available, I would suggest running 4 Scalding Tarn in the maindeck and 1 Mountain in the sideboard to bring in against Stax, Fish, and Beats, since all of your good hate cards against them are red and you don't want to get Wastelanded.  Plus I think that Darkblast is usually better than Lava Dart.  And I think you should run Mox Emerald in the maindeck.  You really want full acceleration for first turn Confidant or casting early Gifts/Fact.

[Morbid-]

Hmmm. I wonder if it will be beneficial to run some in the main? I think it's hard to stash any in the SB, as all of thsoe slots of devoted to the diverse metagame (I'm digging the Darkblast, though). I'm not sure what to cut, it seems like a glass cannon here. I think I should cut Petal for Mox Emerald, right? It seems like the logical choice, unless I'm totally missing something. Gah, I also want Commandeer in there somewhere, but I think I'm just being greedy at this point.

Anyhow, I'll have a functioning MWS list up sometime soon, probably over the weekend when I have more time to mess around with stuff. Testing partners/tutorials are welcome, please shoot me a PM. I think I'll make this thread my 21-day Vintage journal. *laughs*

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Maindeck the 4 Tarns since they are just as good as other blue fetches.  I wouldn't want to maindeck a Mountain because you only use it to cast your sideboarded cards against certain matchups.  I think it is well worth the 1 sideboard slot to ensure consistent access to red mana against Stax and Aggro post-board.

Cutting Petal for Emerald is fine.  IMO Commandeer is not that great unless you run a build with Meditate to support it.

[Rico Suave]

There are several major differences when porting from Legacy to T1, or vice versa.  I'll try and keep this basic, fundamental, and concise.

1) Mana

Generally speaking, you want to run the following for acceleration:
Black Lotus
Sol Ring
Mox Sapphire
Mox Pearl
Mox Emerald
Mox Ruby
Mox Jet
Mana Crypt

This has often been abbreviated SoLoMox, or SoLoMoxCrypt.  These are a staple in almost any deck, with exceptions being stuff like Fish or perhaps decks that run Null Rod.

Other possibilities, once you have those, are Library of Alexandria and Tolarian Academy (very good with Moxen).  Tolarian Academy should especially not be underestimated.

Outside of that, the rest of your mana should be fetchlands, duals, and probably some basics. 

2) The cornerstones of Vintage

Mana Drain
Mishra's Workshop
Dark Ritual
Bazaar of Baghdad

Familiarize yourself with decks that run 4 copies of these cards.  Play against them, and with them if you want to throw them on MWS for a few games.  I'm not a betting man, but if I were I'd easily say over 75% of your matches in a given tournament will probably be against decks that use one of the above cards.

3) The 5 pivotall restricted cards

Black Lotus
Yawgmoth's Will
Tinker
Ancestral Recall
Time Walk

Combined with cards like Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Mystical Tutor, and Merchant Scroll you can frequently find one of these bad boys and swing the game heavily into your favor. 

The "broken" plays of T1 are frequently fueled by one of the above cards.  More often than not a game winner will probably use multiples of the above cards, and it should be noted that they have brutal synergy together.  What is better than casting Time Walk?  Why, casting Yawgmoth's Will to take a 3rd turn in a row...

4) Don't be intimidated.

A lot of times in T1 you'll have games where your opponent has a ridiculous array of broken cards, and there just isn't anything you can do to win.  With good play you can try to stem the bleeding so to speak, but there are times where your opponent will mull to 5 and kill you before you get your first turn.  They are rare, and Force of Will is very good, but they do happen from time to time.  Just keep in mind you run the same cards, and in your very next game it could be *you* that gets the "oops I win" hand.  Over time luck tends to even out. 

5) When in doubt, play what you know. 

If you are unfamiliar with the format, and your best experience is playing a control deck in Legacy, then play a control deck in T1.  The biggest difference between Legacy control and T1 control is that Legacy has to play a much more interactive game and is traditionally more defensive, whereas control in T1 tend to have "combo" finishes and they can play a lot more aggressively with their game-plan.  Sometimes you can just win with a Vault/Key combo, Tinker -> fattie, or a broken Yawgmoth's Will play.

[honestabe]

Smmenen offers vintage lessons for a very reasonable price.  I'd suggest that.

Also, try to make familiarize yourself with local players, and watch the best ones play.  Think what you would do in a certain situation, and what the player actually does.  This helps you make certain realizations you might not have otherwise

[Morbid-]

@ Rico & honestabe: thanks for the tips, the breakdown of the differences between Vintage & Legacy were helpful. Being new to the Vintage scene in general makes this tough, but it is Columbus, OH and I'm sure there's some Vintage looming around here. I'm bound to find a testing partner for this soon, but so far I haven't found anyone on MWS who wants to stick around for more than a minute or so, resulting in no viable testing. Sigh.

As far as the deck goes, I'm missing a lot of obvious stuff (example: Top of Library Tutor + Cycle Rebuild when the coast is clear = get your card) that obviously screws with the fluidity of the deck, and of course, that whole thing about winning. I also am having questions on threat assessment and how to deal with said threats (what do I let through? Do I use a Drain here or FoW? etc). As far as the list goes...

Maindeck the 4 Tarns since they are just as good as other blue fetches.  I wouldn't want to maindeck a Mountain because you only use it to cast your sideboarded cards against certain matchups.  I think it is well worth the 1 sideboard slot to ensure consistent access to red mana against Stax and Aggro post-board.

Cutting Petal for Emerald is fine.  IMO Commandeer is not that great unless you run a build with Meditate to support it.

Duly noted on Commandeer. Scalding Tarn is ridiculous here. I think a 1/4 split of Delta/Tarn is the way to go right now, especially because the Tarns hit every land in the deck. The mana base for this deck now:

Code:

// Lands
    1  Polluted Delta
    1  Library of Alexandria
    1  Tolarian Academy
    2  Volcanic Island
    1  Snow-Covered Island
    3 [APL] Island
    4  Scalding Tarn
    3  Underground Sea

This is at least what I have on MWS at the moment.

From the previous dicussion, I took out a Lava Dart for Darkblast, which I think is a better fit here. I can understand the Rack and Ruin (ignores 3Sphere, obviously), but is Ingot Chewer a superior choice to, say, Shattering Spree? This is the board currently, for analysis purposes.

Code:

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Pyroclasm
SB: 1  Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1  Razormane Masticore
SB: 1  Ingot Chewer
SB: 2  Rack and Ruin
[b]SB: 1  Lava Dart --> 1  Darkblast[/b]
SB: 2  Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2  Yixlid Jailer
SB: 2  Extirpate
SB: 2 [DDC] Duress

Last, I've decided Spell Pierce is a must! (After reading around ). I just have no idea what on earth to take out of the list...



Edit: Forgot about Mindbreak Trap as well.

[honestabe]

@ Rico & honestabe: thanks for the tips, the breakdown of the differences between Vintage & Legacy were helpful. Being new to the Vintage scene in general makes this tough, but it is Columbus, OH and I'm sure there's some Vintage looming around here. I'm bound to find a testing partner for this soon, but so far I haven't found anyone on MWS who wants to stick around for more than a minute or so, resulting in no viable testing. Sigh.

As far as the deck goes, I'm missing a lot of obvious stuff (example: Top of Library Tutor + Cycle Rebuild when the coast is clear = get your card) that obviously screws with the fluidity of the deck, and of course, that whole thing about winning. I also am having questions on threat assessment and how to deal with said threats (what do I let through? Do I use a Drain here or FoW? etc). As far as the list goes...

The midwest and New england are the 2 best places to be for vintage.  Threat assesment is just something that will come with time.  A little bit of advise Tool gave me "When thinking about countering Ancestral, you have to think 'is my hand better than what my opponents hand will be?'"  If it is, then let it resolve, but if you think it will mke your opponents hand better than yours, counter that shit.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I also am having questions on threat assessment and how to deal with said threats (what do I let through? Do I use a Drain here or FoW? etc).

Threat assessment is difficult, because it often depends on the specific situation.  The best thing to do is look at your hand, the card, and the gamestate, and try to visualize how the rest of the game will play out if it resolves--if it seems like it will cause problems and you cannot play around it, then it is a threat.

With that caveat, here is a general list of things that usually or generally should be countered if possible, organized by archetype:

Control:
Ancestral Recall
Yawgmoth's Will
Tinker
Fact or Fiction
Gifts Ungiven
Dark Confidant

Combo:
Control Stuff, +
Necropotence
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Draw 7s (Timetwister, Wheel of Fortune)
Ad Nauseam
Sometimes Tutors (if you think they are holding a bunch of moxen and Rituals they could get Mind's Desire)
Sometimes Lotus/Rituals, since this can allow them to Duress you, play other stuff, and go crazy
Sometimes mass bounce (Chain of Vapor, Hurkyl's Recall or Rebuild) that can generate lethal storm

Oath:
Control Stuff+
Oath of Druids

Stax:
Goblin Welder
Smokestack
Tangle Wire
Sometimes Chalice of the Void
And sometimes pretty much every other spell in their deck, but those are the most important ones (obviously counter Crucible of Worlds if they have Strip Mine)

Shop Aggro:
Their creatures

MUD:
Stax Stuff+
Sometimes Metalworker (if they have a grip full of artifacts they can use him to drop them all at once which is more than you can handle)

Fish/Beats:
Dark Confidant
Null Rod
Tarmogoyf
Aven Mindcensor

Elves:
Skullclamp
Glimpse of Nature

Dredge:
Chalice of the Void
Anything you get a chance to counter before they destroy your hand with Cabal Therapies.

but is Ingot Chewer a superior choice to, say, Shattering Spree?

Spree looks good on paper, but in actual play you will not get RR or RRR very often without Lotus.  For destroying multiple artifacts Rack and Ruin is better because it only costs R and is an instant, so you can use it at the end of their turn (keeping Drain mana open, for example) or, more importantly, during your upkeep in response to the Tangle Wire trigger.  Ingot Chewer is very good because he only costs R and dodges Chalice for 1 (for Spree to do this you have to have RR) and Thorn of Amethyst.  If you can Drain into him or hardcast him he can usually beat down for the win, especially when combined with Bob.  I like to run 2 in the board or even 3, since I find the low casting cost important against Stax (Rack and Ruin can be hard to cast because of Spheres).  The only drawback to Chewer is the 5cc hurts when you flip him off Confidant.

Last, I've decided Spell Pierce is a must! (After reading around ). I just have no idea what on earth to take out of the list...

It is a difficult choice to make, but I think that the following slots are the most flexible:
1x Misdirection
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Dark Confidant
2x Mana Drain

I would probably cut Misdirection and 1 Drain for 2 Spell Pierce and see how that tests.

I'm not sure what the purpose is of the Razormane Masticore in the sideboard.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Smmenen offers vintage lessons for a very reasonable price.  I'd suggest that.

Wait.  You pay him...and he plays against you...and tells you what you did wrong?

[honestabe]

Smmenen offers vintage lessons for a very reasonable price.  I'd suggest that.

Wait.  You pay him...and he plays against you...and tells you what you did wrong?

Well, more than that, but that's the gist of it.  Discussion of strategies, play style, assignment of role, etc.

[TrollMcSmash]

...yeah... I'm not him, but I'll do that for free. It's always fun to get some vintage in, and I love teaching folks about the format.

    I would honestly suggest cutting one of the Confidants, because in my experience (admittedly with his use in Tezz) is that I find him often enough when there's 3 copies in the deck, and I'm drawing more useful stuff when he's in play. Most Tezz lists reflect this similar observation, and it tends to work really well.

    You could probably get away with cutting the misdirection too. It's fun, sometimes it steals ancestrals, and I've had a lot of success with it just being the random 5th FoW, buuuuuuut admittedly spell pierce is probably a better direction to take that.