Stax Draw Engine

[TheShop]

I commented on this in the improvement forums, but thought I would pitch something to the general Vintage community:

Why does 5-color Stax only have 1 card in the entire deck that draws cards (Ancestral)?

1)  All of the recent 1-2 color Stax lists have had a set of Dark Confidants in them (most contain Bazaar was well).  Also, those decks have classically been running Uba Mask and Bazaar as the draw engine of choice.  Even if Bazaar is not currently considered draw (no Masks) it still makes more cards available to the player to abuse with Crucible and Welder.

2)  KronStax originally did not run additional draw spells.  The deck relied entirely on locking the opponent incrementally out of the game for virtual card advantage.  However, as the deck progressed, Roland Chang kept the Ancestral recall in the deck and added 4 copies of thirst for knowledge.  This addition was in top 8 5cStax decks until Stax fell out of popularity.

Summation:  To me, it seems that when the format became to fast for Stax to be viable (Flash, Gush...) and the deck fell out of favor...and the build changed.  When the format was slowed again, the deck did not reincorporate the winning strategy of running some form of draw.  Those slots have now been dedicated to additional tutors, lock components, and silver bullets.  This is a step backwards to the original build piloted by Kevin circa mid 2000's.

Possible solutions:

1) Add a Thirst.  This seems wrong because adding 1 card would not make a consistent play difference for the deck.  Gush is obviously out. Brainstorm isn't card advantage.  FoF and Gifts are too mana intensive. 

2)  Night's Whisper-   This goes back to the question that every other deck has seemed to answer recently:  Is bob better?  I believe that he is definitely better here because he is also a win condition (a fast clock for this deck).  We would not even have to change our mana-base to support this addition.
        A)   Bob's major drawback here would be life-loss.  But, Stax has more ways to kill your own Bob than most blue decks.
        B)   Bob's average lifeloss in a Stax deck that has 4 Chalices replacing spheres 3-7 is actually less than most Tezzeret decks that currently run him (26-29 mana sources               have extremely low costs as well as Chalice(should you choose to run it))
        C)  Bob can be played off a Mox + Land and is a threat.  Threats of this kind match the original cost the 5cStax mana-base was meant to support.

3)  If anyone has additional suggestions for a draw engine I would enjoy hearing them.

My conclusion is that Bob should find a home in 5-color Stax so that we do not take an evolutionary step backwards in Stax development.

[Juggernaut GO]

actually, the proper answer is mystic remora.  AND IT'S A PERMANENT.

[Will]

As a 5color Stax player I feel I can pretty accurately answer this question for you.  5cStax really has become one of those decks where you want to mulligan aggressively rather than worry about card draw or hand fixing as a whole.  Your goals in the game are to put lock pieces out as fast as you can.  This means that you really want to have your deck be X Mana Sources Y Lock Pieces and Z Win Conditions.  With only 60 cards and more than enough lock pieces you don't really have room.  Almost all of your lock pieces are proactive enough to put your opponent on their heels as well as allowing you to answer a problem.  Another issue is that a lot of the card draw advocated is either slow or takes up a fundamental spot in the deck.  With Stax you really want to start from turn 1 and keep going from there on dropping lock pieces so your opponent eventually succumbs to you.  This really can't be achieved by playing out a turn 2 Dark Confidant or any card draw spell really.  Ancestral fits simply because it is a guaranteed +2 card advantage.  This takes me to my next point that almost all of the cards in the deck provide some sort of card advantage for you so that you don't need to spend mana drawing cards.  Lastly, adding 4 card draw spells to an already packed deck just adds chaff.  Tell me first what you would cut, then what you would put in, and at that point you should reasonably have figured out why you shouldn't be playing card draw.  

[Juggernaut GO]

I'm usually the only person that can win with my own ideas on deck building, so it probably wouldn't be a good call for anyone to try and do something that I do in vintage.

I could go 8-0 in a major tournament with what is considered a pile by everyone.
At the same time certain unnamed players could also be playing the deck, shuffle up, present, draw their opening seven, scream "WHAT!!!!!! NO BRAINSTORM!!!!  AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!" and then shortly after that, their heads would explode.

[meadbert]

5cStax really has become one of those decks where you want to mulligan aggressively rather than worry about card draw or hand fixing as a whole.  

Serum Powder?

[Bill Copes]

I ran confidant stax plenty of times to successful finishes in the Gifts era (2006-2007).

http://morphling.de/search.php?type=1&app=40&sorting=DESC&search=Copes&sent=1 (Somerset 19.05.2007 and before)

It's the only draw engine (outside of ubazaar) that I've found to be viable in a shop deck, since your game plan is incremental advantage.  Some people swear on Bottled Cloister, but I've always been terrified of that card.

Another possibility could be Mindstorm Crown, particularly if you run that in combination with Bazaar.

[Metman]

I'm not much of a Stax player but I test with it as part of my gauntlet.  Steve's old Blue Stax deck with Mindlock Orbs was interesting although it was not successful it did open up some ideas to me.  Has anybody considered playing Rhystic Study with a suite of Spheres as a draw engine?  Mystic Remora was another thought I had although the commitment of paying the upkeep seemed not to be worth it at face value.  I have not tested it though. 

[Juggernaut GO]

Mindlock orb is actually the 2nd best lock piece in the game at this moment in time, only trinisphere is better.

[Diakonov]

I've always thought that Mind's Eye is a fancy draw engine, but it's a bit overpriced.  It's also not quite as good now that Brainstorm and Thirst are restricted.  Bottled Cloister is probably better under most circumstances.

You could experiment with Memory Jar and Transmute Artifact as an engine.

[Will]

I think that Tangle Wire and Smokestack are probably better than Mindlock Orb.  Now that M10 Rule changes have come into effect Tangle Wire complete locks people out of entire turns and allows you to essentially tap 2 at most real permanents ever compared to them starting out having to tap 4.  Also, Tangle Wire with Smokestack is on eof the most devastating combinations available today against almost all Tezzeret lists since it grinds them out while it does not allow them to play anything.  Mindlock Orb of course locks out their tutors and some of their mana, but it does not necessarily effect their board position at all and does not immediately hinder them from playing spells.  Serum Powder would be good if it was relevant when you drew it after turn 0, but it is still chaff.  Your hands in Stax really want to be 2+ lock pieces and the mana to reasonably cast them on the first few turns plus some other things.  These two lock pieces hopefully can get you there, with the other cards playing the support that card draw would play by filling the holes the deck inherently will have when trying to proactively answer the entire format.  

[LotusHead]

.  Has anybody considered playing Rhystic Study with a suite of Spheres as a draw engine? 

I had not considered it before, but now I shall!  An old teammate used to use it in his decks all the time.

[Beralt]

Just throwing Gasoline on the fire but I prefer Possessed Portal over Mindlock orb for a lock piece, and it's currently semi viable in Cerebral Assasin builds, Steel City Vault variants and Ichorid (Sharuum Variants).

Other draw engines to explore could include Bloodghast with Skullclamp - Crucible of Worlds just makes it better.  And they all Ghast & Crucible work well with Bazaar.

[Sean Ryan]

Here is the best draw engine Shops can run:

BOB/Bazaar/Tutors/Welders/Crucibles - draw 4 discard three, weld in artifact, replay land...and tutor for Strip

Ditch the 5c buid and run black/red

[MirariKnight]

Here is the best draw engine Shops can run:

BOB/Bazaar/Tutors/Welders/Crucibles - draw 4 discard three, weld in artifact, replay land...and tutor for Strip

Ditch the 5c buid and run black/red

This can't be more true.
Crucible + Welder make Bazaar +2 CA. Dark Confidant is amazing in Stax. R/B is my favorite build as well.

[TheShop]

As a 5color Stax player I feel I can pretty accurately answer this question for you.  5cStax really has become one of those decks where you want to mulligan aggressively rather than worry about card draw or hand fixing as a whole.  Your goals in the game are to put lock pieces out as fast as you can.  This means that you really want to have your deck be X Mana Sources Y Lock Pieces and Z Win Conditions.  With only 60 cards and more than enough lock pieces you don't really have room.  Almost all of your lock pieces are proactive enough to put your opponent on their heels as well as allowing you to answer a problem.  Another issue is that a lot of the card draw advocated is either slow or takes up a fundamental spot in the deck.  With Stax you really want to start from turn 1 and keep going from there on dropping lock pieces so your opponent eventually succumbs to you.  This really can't be achieved by playing out a turn 2 Dark Confidant or any card draw spell really.  Ancestral fits simply because it is a guaranteed +2 card advantage.  This takes me to my next point that almost all of the cards in the deck provide some sort of card advantage for you so that you don't need to spend mana drawing cards.  Lastly, adding 4 card draw spells to an already packed deck just adds chaff.  Tell me first what you would cut, then what you would put in, and at that point you should reasonably have figured out why you shouldn't be playing card draw.  

1)  I do not think 5cStax has actually become the deck that throws out lock components ASAP...if anything we have moved in the opposite direction.  My reasoning is that Chalice is the fastest and most effective early game lock component and most 5 color players do not run it.  This deck runs slightly slower lock components and then tutors to find silver bullets that answer the big problems in Vintage.

2)  Confidant is NOT a turn 2 play.  Look at how the deck was built back in the day:
4 spheres
2 chains of mephistopheles
3 chalice of the void
1 seal of cleansing

this is 10 cards in the deck that can be dropped off two mana (LAND + MOX)

3) Every card in every deck is built in to provide some sort of advantage....this is not a new development in stax.  But the other decks have draw to actively get the advantageous cards into hand.

4)  The stax decks putting up the best results run 4 of this card...they just are not 5color decks.

I have already posted my list twice on the site, so I won't do it again:  http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=38373.0

I ran confidant stax plenty of times to successful finishes in the Gifts era (2006-2007).

http://morphling.de/search.php?type=1&app=40&sorting=DESC&search=Copes&sent=1 (Somerset 19.05.2007 and before)

It's the only draw engine (outside of ubazaar) that I've found to be viable in a shop deck, since your game plan is incremental advantage.  Some people swear on Bottled Cloister, but I've always been terrified of that card.

Another possibility could be Mindstorm Crown, particularly if you run that in combination with Bazaar.

I have two problems with Mindstorm Crown and Cloister:
1) these are truly second turn plays
2) they are too conditional.  The cloister will probably result in you losing your entire hand if you played it early (playing it late is not a great advantage).

Mindlock orb is actually the 2nd best lock piece in the game at this moment in time, only trinisphere is better.

Gag me.  This lock component costs 4 mana, and 1 of it is colored.  Also, it does not stop any win condition in the game.  In fact, the best thing it stops are sac lands + 4--6 tutors.  By the time this thing comes into play, the other player will have had a chance to get established.  Supression field seems better than this to me even though I would not play either (field is too symmetrical).  I would put NULL ROD in the second best lock component slot(behind trinisphere) because it actually stops:
5 mox
1 lotus
1 sol ring
1 crypt
1 vault
time vault
grinstone

and is a first turn play.

Here is the best draw engine Shops can run:

BOB/Bazaar/Tutors/Welders/Crucibles - draw 4 discard three, weld in artifact, replay land...and tutor for Strip

Ditch the 5c buid and run black/red

This can't be more true.
Crucible + Welder make Bazaar +2 CA. Dark Confidant is amazing in Stax. R/B is my favorite build as well.

I agree that the R/B build is very very good.  But I have a few personal preferences that will not allow me play with the deck.  First, I am not as enthralled with Bazaar because I do not enjoy losing a mana drop.  It is very good, but after playing with 5color for so long, it just does not feel right (I cant really put a reason on this).  Secondly, R/B stax does not run the silver bullets that pull you from behind.  Running demo, vamp, imp seal, and consultation does not seem as fun to me when the only thing you want to grab with them is trinisphere and strip mine (2 great cards to be sure).  I want to be able to tutor up Balance, or tinker for a beatstick, or my ever-so-useful Seal of Cleansing.  Seal is soooooooo good.  I do not think 5-color can afford to dedicate 4 land slots to Bazaar as it is already stretched.  The most it could spare is 1-2.

I am not trying to create a thread on 5color vs. B/R either, just trying to make a case for running a draw engine in stax.  30 lock components/tutors/answer + 4 welders + 26 mana sources lends itself to this situation-

You aggressively mulligan into a 6 card hand of "good" and "fast" lock components.  Your opponent goes first and duresses one out of your hand (hand of 5 now and the average hand is 50% mana sources).  You are now down to 2-3 business spells in your hand.  You draw, play shop + mox (hand of 4) then play a lock component and meet a counterspell (hand of 3 with 1-2 business spells).  It is now the opponents turn:  they play draw spells or tutors and go find counterspells (may also duress your business again).  On your turn, you play the last of your business and watch it go to the yard.  Welder or wastelands are the only cards keeping you in the game at this point.  Blue decks are running 12 counterspells + 4 duress.  This is as many as your lock components except that they actually GO FIND THEIR ANSWERS TO YOUR SPELLS.  When you get to nothing but mana in hand, you have a 50% chance of ripping mana off the top.  Even if you draw business, you are under control because they will outdraw you and find the answer to your average 1 spell every 2 turns.

Even if the situation is not quite this bleak, your lock pieces are incremental (ie- one or two does not win the game completely unless you continue to constrict).  If the opponent works his way through a one or two of the early pieces, they have the ability to stabilize unless you play more components.  And playing more becomes difficult once they have stabilized (especially when your hand gets low).

A turn 1 Bob answers both of these situations because you replenish your hand after discard  and at the beginning of your turn, and he makes the pressure to find counterspells much worse on the opponent.  This IS keeping them on their heels.  For those of you who say you cannot play Bob + lock component or that he is not good because he is not a lock component:  Play with Chalice, Bob +Chalice is a lock and a serious threat to their stabilization on turn 1.  You can't tell me that the old "workshop, sphere (burn for one omitted)" is better than this.  And if you run Chalice with Null Rod or Sphere, you can drop both of them on turn 1 with shop + mox, where before you would just play 1 lock component with this amount of mana.

[madmanmike25]

Gag me.  This lock component costs 4 mana, and 1 of it is colored.  Also, it does not stop any win condition in the game.  

Just for clarification, Mindlock Orb stops Tinker.  And yet it's still a horrible card.

Seriously, even Aven Mindcensor is better;  costs less, has flash, can beat, doesnt affect your own tutors.

@ TheShop: if that link is still your current list you could consider going Staxless and think about going to 4 Tangles.  I also have absolutely no idea why you dont run Thirst for Knowledge.

EDIT: @ TheShop

1)  I do not think 5cStax has actually become the deck that throws out lock components ASAP...if anything we have moved in the opposite direction.

5-Color Stax is a deck that has-from inception, been more reliant on lock components that could be played from Land + Mox on turn 1.

IMO turn 1 is ASAP....please clarify.  What would you rather be doing turn 1???

[Stormanimagus]

I think the folks who don't understand that Bazaar is the best draw-engine out there for Stax don't understand how to play Stax.

It is, HANDS DOWN, BAZAAR OF M-F BAGHDAD!

If you run 4 Bazaar (the proper number IM-not-so-HO) then you are playing a truly powerful Stax list. Testing against my friend Ici's list has taught me this. 5-Color Variants that run stuff like Ancestral, DT, and VT, are inconsistent and lighter on lock components. Bazaar is really all you need for Card Draw in Stax because so much is dependent on dumping your hand turn 1/2 anyway that Bazaar just finds you what you need with Welder/Crucible on the table and can find you what you need if you have 2+ cards in hand at any point in the game.

The reason folks don't often unanimously agree that Bazaar is the best draw-engine for Stax is because it is the most misunderstood AND misplayed engine. However, it IS the best.

-Storm

[Purple Hat]

why don't people use thoughtcast?  it's sphere neutral (spheres are +1, affinity -1, Net effect =0) and becomes less expensive as you drop other lock parts.  my guess is that it gets better the more control you have over the game...which makes it useless if what you're trying to do is reload after your opening salvo is countered or dig for a n early lock part.

As for the evolution of the deck, I think that as other decks get faster stax has to lock down the game earlier, in order to do that it has to cram in more quick lock parts.  That means you have less room and time for draw.  Where stax needs draw is after it has made its first set of plays and needs to reload.

[madmanmike25]

Thats actually a really good explanation of how draw should be used in ANY Stax deck.  Disrupt first, draw/tutor later.

As for Thoughtcast, we have to determine if its better than Confidant.  I seriously doubt you would want to play with both due to the obvious life loss already present.  The 'permanent' aspect of Confidant seems more appealing as well as being able to tap for 2 dmg(yes even in a Stax deck).  

I think a lot of us get shortsighted and see Thoughtcast as costing only U mana.  If you need that gas sooner than you have 4 artifacts down, Nights Whisper just seems superior overall.

Much of this conversation is irrelevent though unless we are directly speaking about the 5c Stax list the original poster made a link to.  Since he uses Chalice instead of Spheres AND plays with 4 Confidants I would say no to Thoughtcast.  Show me another list and I will probably change that answer, Thoughtcast is indeed an option to consider.

[Valorale]

The reason folks don't often unanimously agree that Bazaar is the best draw-engine for Stax is because it is the most misunderstood AND misplayed engine. However, it IS the best.

I have never played Stax myself ... but I have play tested against it many times. The level of hatred I have for Bazaar of Baghdad + Goblin Welder cannot be exaggerated. Welder gets around so many limitations such as insufficient mana and cards like Gaddock Teeg. There are great cards that move stuff into the GY but nothing like Bazaar for Staxx. You dont need everything in your GY, hell you dont need to move a lot .. just a couple cards like Crucible, Stack and Tanglewire. Hell 2 Tanglewires bouncing back and forth is enough for your friend to do a Dane Cook impression "F this game! Grandma is a cheating whore!"

[TopSecret]

Why does 5-color Stax only have 1 card in the entire deck that draws cards (Ancestral)?

In a Stax deck, you only have so many slots in the deck for cards that aren't lock pieces.

5-color Stax plays the five color mana base to use these extra, non-lock piece slots on a mish-mash of broken cards from different colors.

2-color Stax decks have lately used these slots on a draw engine, like Confidant.
If you are playing 4 Dark Confidant, it probably fills up most of the extra, non-lock piece slots,
making the 5-color mana base not worth it if it's only used for a couple cards, which leads to the use of a two color manabase.

It sounds like you're thinking about decks too much as archetypes and objects, which leads to oversimplification.
If you think about a deck like a system and consider how all the cards interact and their relationships within a greater context
without questioning what archetype a deck is, questions like these will probably answer themselves.

[TheShop]

Gag me.  This lock component costs 4 mana, and 1 of it is colored.  Also, it does not stop any win condition in the game.  

Just for clarification, Mindlock Orb stops Tinker.  And yet it's still a horrible card.

Seriously, even Aven Mindcensor is better;  costs less, has flash, can beat, doesnt affect your own tutors.

@ TheShop: if that link is still your current list you could consider going Staxless and think about going to 4 Tangles.  I also have absolutely no idea why you dont run Thirst for Knowledge.

EDIT: @ TheShop

1)  I do not think 5cStax has actually become the deck that throws out lock components ASAP...if anything we have moved in the opposite direction.

5-Color Stax is a deck that has-from inception, been more reliant on lock components that could be played from Land + Mox on turn 1.

IMO turn 1 is ASAP....please clarify.  What would you rather be doing turn 1???

I am asserting that the manabase is better geared at throwing out 2 mana threats on turn 1 rather than limiting the non-sphere lock components to those with higher costs.  Here is what I would rather be doing with 2 mana on first turn than playing a sphere:

mox
chalice @0
land
sphere (if you run it)

or

mox
chalice @ 0
land
null rod

or
mox
chalice @0
land
chalice @1

or

chalice @0
workshop
chalice @1

or

mox
chalice @0
land
BOB

Of course many of these hands do not require a shop, and if you have shop, they do not require a mox.  Chalice is not even necessary if you just drop Rod instead.  I would rather have Chalice + X or Null Rod alone than a single sphere.  And the more components on turn 1, the better.  This Lock IS faster than simply "sphere, go" because the opponent has less permanents in play at the end of their turn if you get chalice, wasteland is exponentially more powerful, and rod makes 1/6 of the opponents deck and draws dead cards (this is like meddling mage being named for 10 cards at one time).  Bob + chalice slows them down as much as a sphere AND you have a lock component.  With bob + chalice, I have more permanents than your lock creates, will end up with more cards to play next turn, and a kill condition you have not layed...this seems better to me.

why don't people use thoughtcast?  it's sphere neutral (spheres are +1, affinity -1, Net effect =0) and becomes less expensive as you drop other lock parts.  my guess is that it gets better the more control you have over the game...which makes it useless if what you're trying to do is reload after your opening salvo is countered or dig for a n early lock part.

As for the evolution of the deck, I think that as other decks get faster stax has to lock down the game earlier, in order to do that it has to cram in more quick lock parts.  That means you have less room and time for draw.  Where stax needs draw is after it has made its first set of plays and needs to reload.

Thoughtcast is not a permanent, kill condition, or early game draw.  Confidant is simply better than this even if you don't get to draw 2 immediately because I will have drawn 2 by reload time.

Why does 5-color Stax only have 1 card in the entire deck that draws cards (Ancestral)?

In a Stax deck, you only have so many slots in the deck for cards that aren't lock pieces.

5-color Stax plays the five color mana base to use these extra, non-lock piece slots on a mish-mash of broken cards from different colors.

2-color Stax decks have lately used these slots on a draw engine, like Confidant.
If you are playing 4 Dark Confidant, it probably fills up most of the extra, non-lock piece slots,
making the 5-color mana base not worth it if it's only used for a couple cards, which leads to the use of a two color manabase.

It sounds like you're thinking about decks too much as archetypes and objects, which leads to oversimplification.
If you think about a deck like a system and consider how all the cards interact and their relationships within a greater context
without questioning what archetype a deck is, questions like these will probably answer themselves.

Balance, tinker, and ancestral are the three colored cards that warrant running more than 2 colors in my mind.  Crop rotation is just the icing on the cake since you already have black tutors to get strip mine.

As for archetypes, I use the term 5color stax repeatedly because I do not want to cut colors.  I am not limiting the deck as a result of the name, just asserting that the deck must run a 5 color manabase or else it becomes a different deck altogether.  The draw question has answered itself in other variants, I think it is time to get on the confidant bandwagon. 5color is obviously not a dead or noncompetitive deck, so we all shouldnt necessarily be playing with B/R.  (however off-topic this suggestion is)

On Bazaar:
I am going to try and put it in here, but with 12+ cards that require colored mana, losing your first land drop to Bazaar seems like a larger drawback here than in B/R.  City of Brass and Gemstone mine are the fuel that runs 1/4 of the deck.

[Twaun007]

I just popped in here because I am pressed for time. I'll post up some extra stuff later tonight.

5-color Stax plays the five color mana base to use these extra, non-lock piece slots on a mish-mash of broken cards from different colors.

The multi-colored Stax decks sacrifice a small amount of consistency for an increased amount of Bombs. The dilemma at hand is whether consistency is better than trying to sneak a bomb card into play.

2-color Stax decks have lately used these slots on a draw engine, like Confidant.
If you are playing 4 Dark Confidant, it probably fills up most of the extra, non-lock piece slots, making the 5-color mana base not worth it if it's only used for a couple cards, which leads to the use of a two color manabase.

Confidant only takes up 4 slots?!? While pretty much every 5c Stax list that I have seen excludes CotV and Null Rod in favor of tutors and expensive colored spells. 5c Stax already has less of a lock piece threat density than any other prison deck. This all relates to the consistency vs. brokenness issue I stated above. How many non-lock piece slots are you dedicating in your 5c Stax build and are you going for consistency or brokenness?

Balance, tinker, and ancestral are the three colored cards that warrant running more than 2 colors in my mind.  Crop rotation is just the icing on the cake since you already have black tutors to get strip mine.

Why do these cards warrant an auto include in any 5c Stax deck?

On Bazaar:
I am going to try and put it in here, but with 12+ cards that require colored mana, losing your first land drop to Bazaar seems like a larger drawback here than in B/R.  City of Brass and Gemstone mine are the fuel that runs 1/4 of the deck.

You are not going to regret running Bazaar of Baghdad. Just practice and know when to be aggressive in terms of its use. It turns your Welders into Insane threats and helps you filter out unwanted cards.

[TheShop]

I too am pressed for time now, but:

I just popped in here because I am pressed for time. I'll post up some extra stuff later tonight.

5-color Stax plays the five color mana base to use these extra, non-lock piece slots on a mish-mash of broken cards from different colors.

The multi-colored Stax decks sacrifice a small amount of consistency for an increased amount of Bombs. The dilemma at hand is whether consistency is better than trying to sneak a bomb card into play.

2-color Stax decks have lately used these slots on a draw engine, like Confidant.
If you are playing 4 Dark Confidant, it probably fills up most of the extra, non-lock piece slots, making the 5-color mana base not worth it if it's only used for a couple cards, which leads to the use of a two color manabase.

Confidant only takes up 4 slots?!? While pretty much every 5c Stax list that I have seen excludes CotV and Null Rod in favor of tutors and expensive colored spells. 5c Stax already has less of a lock piece threat density than any other prison deck. This all relates to the consistency vs. brokenness issue I stated above. How many non-lock piece slots are you dedicating in your 5c Stax build and are you going for consistency or brokenness?

Balance, tinker, and ancestral are the three colored cards that warrant running more than 2 colors in my mind.  Crop rotation is just the icing on the cake since you already have black tutors to get strip mine.

Why do these cards warrant an auto include in any 5c Stax deck?

On Bazaar:
I am going to try and put it in here, but with 12+ cards that require colored mana, losing your first land drop to Bazaar seems like a larger drawback here than in B/R.  City of Brass and Gemstone mine are the fuel that runs 1/4 of the deck.

You are not going to regret running Bazaar of Baghdad. Just practice and know when to be aggressive in terms of its use. It turns your Welders into Insane threats and helps you filter out unwanted cards.

Balance, Tinker, Ancestral:  These are the bombs you referenced.  These (and IMO seal of cleansing) are the motivation to play 5 color instead of 2.  They are the only cards that I would run differently

Lock Piece Density:  I run almost the same # and type of lock cards run by the other prison decks.  So my density is the same, plus I am making an attempt to keep the bombs.  I think every Stax Deck should run:
Lock Pieces-
10-12 slots composed of Smokestack, Tanlgle Wire, and Crucible, 1 trinisphere
8-9 2-mana disruption/lock- mine are 4 chalice, 3 rods, 1 seal of cleansing
(this is virtually the same as most other builds with high lock piece density and consisitency)

as opposed to
10-11 spent on stack, tangle, crucible, 3-sphere
6-8 additional 2-spheres

but, with the same threat density, I want to keep Balance because it is the only card that can pull you from way behind and still fits in stax. Ancestral because it is the best card advantage card in the game.  And tinker, because it is not only a tutor for a missing lock piece, but also a possible win condition.  This plus imp seal, vamp, demo, and possibly a crop rot.

Since most of the cards in the deck are 3-4 ofs, and I still have all of the lock pieces + 4 tutors (same as B/R)- I do not think we are sacrificing a great deal of consistency compared to other builds.

[Leooooh]

Here are my current build of a 5c UbaRod Stax. I won a vintage champ and took 3rd with it here in Brazil, where both champs had 20 + people.

4 Goblin Welder
1 Duplicant
1 Razormane Masticore
1 Platinum Angel

1 Ancestral
1 Tinker
1 Demonic Tutor

1 Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
4 Sphere of Resistense
4 Tangle Wire
2 Null Rod
3 Crucible of Words
3 Smokestack
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Trinisphere
2 Uba Mask

4 City of Brass
2 Gemstone Mine
1 Barbarian Ring
2 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy



   Before this build I was using a 5c deck, with vampiric, imperial seal, crop and other stuff. But like Twaun007 told, the deck didn't have consistency. Also, those bombs become dead draws sometimes, since i had some spheres in the game, and they aren't shop castable. So I decided to go with more lock components wich are shop castable, and even if I have a chalice on the game set at any number i can cast the lock, it will get countered and then I weld it back. Also, I opted for the bazaar engine, wich is F... awesome, with either Uba, welder or Crucible on play. Bazaar cycles the dead cards you dont need righ now for new options and lock components, and even its drawback can be useful late in the game.

 I have some doubts about using Confidant in Stax. Doesn't it cause too much damage to you  by reveiling smokestack, wires, crucibles than in your oponent?
 What about the Mysitic Remora engine.......It is a permanent (can be sac to smokestack), and if your oponent tries to react by casting some spells, you will draw cards, if they do not, well you will continue to deploy locking components and they will be doomed. I might give a try to this idea by cutting Demonic, 2 Ubas and 1 Sphere, and adding 4 Remoras.

Leonardo

[Twaun007]

I too am pressed for time now, but:

I just popped in here because I am pressed for time. I'll post up some extra stuff later tonight.

5-color Stax plays the five color mana base to use these extra, non-lock piece slots on a mish-mash of broken cards from different colors.

The multi-colored Stax decks sacrifice a small amount of consistency for an increased amount of Bombs. The dilemma at hand is whether consistency is better than trying to sneak a bomb card into play.

2-color Stax decks have lately used these slots on a draw engine, like Confidant.
If you are playing 4 Dark Confidant, it probably fills up most of the extra, non-lock piece slots, making the 5-color mana base not worth it if it's only used for a couple cards, which leads to the use of a two color manabase.

Confidant only takes up 4 slots?!? While pretty much every 5c Stax list that I have seen excludes CotV and Null Rod in favor of tutors and expensive colored spells. 5c Stax already has less of a lock piece threat density than any other prison deck. This all relates to the consistency vs. brokenness issue I stated above. How many non-lock piece slots are you dedicating in your 5c Stax build and are you going for consistency or brokenness?

Balance, tinker, and ancestral are the three colored cards that warrant running more than 2 colors in my mind.  Crop rotation is just the icing on the cake since you already have black tutors to get strip mine.

Why do these cards warrant an auto include in any 5c Stax deck?

On Bazaar:
I am going to try and put it in here, but with 12+ cards that require colored mana, losing your first land drop to Bazaar seems like a larger drawback here than in B/R.  City of Brass and Gemstone mine are the fuel that runs 1/4 of the deck.

You are not going to regret running Bazaar of Baghdad. Just practice and know when to be aggressive in terms of its use. It turns your Welders into Insane threats and helps you filter out unwanted cards.

Balance, Tinker, Ancestral:  These are the bombs you referenced.  These (and IMO seal of cleansing) are the motivation to play 5 color instead of 2.  They are the only cards that I would run differently

Lock Piece Density:  I run almost the same # and type of lock cards run by the other prison decks.  So my density is the same, plus I am making an attempt to keep the bombs.  I think every Stax Deck should run:
Lock Pieces-
10-12 slots composed of Smokestack, Tanlgle Wire, and Crucible, 1 trinisphere
8-9 2-mana disruption/lock- mine are 4 chalice, 3 rods, 1 seal of cleansing
(this is virtually the same as most other builds with high lock piece density and consisitency)

as opposed to
10-11 spent on stack, tangle, crucible, 3-sphere
6-8 additional 2-spheres

but, with the same threat density, I want to keep Balance because it is the only card that can pull you from way behind and still fits in stax. Ancestral because it is the best card advantage card in the game.  And tinker, because it is not only a tutor for a missing lock piece, but also a possible win condition.  This plus imp seal, vamp, demo, and possibly a crop rot.

Since most of the cards in the deck are 3-4 ofs, and I still have all of the lock pieces + 4 tutors (same as B/R)- I do not think we are sacrificing a great deal of consistency compared to other builds.

Sweet, let’s look at the deck you suggest.

Land- 19
4 Mishra’s Workshop
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
4 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Bazaar of Baghdad

Artifacts- 27
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
4 Smokestack
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Null Rod
1 Trinisphere

Instants- 3
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Crop Rotation

Sorcery- 4
1 Balance
1 Imperial Seal
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker

Enchantments- 1
1 Seal of Cleansing

Creatures- 4
4 Goblin Welder


That’s 58 cards without Dark Confidant or SoRs/ToAs. That leads you 2 open slots and we haven even considered Sundering Titan as our Tinker target. Wowzers!

How do you propose we find slots to accommodate a draw engine in 5c Stax?

I have some doubts about using Confidant in Stax. Doesn't it cause too much damage to you  by reveiling smokestack, wires, crucibles than in your oponent?

My Stax list has a converted mana cost of 1.13333333. This allows Dark Confidant to be in play for 17.64 consecutive turns. I have a very hard time understanding the damage argument when people run Dark Confidant with Force or Will and Inkwell Leviathan. Look at Stephen Q. Menedian's Confidant Control list. He has a full compliment of Dark Confidants and his deck tops out at a converted mana cost of 1.5333333333. That's higher than you average Stax list! Where is the whoop la about his high mana costs?

[Leooooh]

Well, having an average cost of 1.133333 is awesome. Can you post your current list??? Maybe we can discuss something with it, or take some ideas for the 5c version.

Leonardo

[slicer]

My Stax list has a converted mana cost of 1.13333333. This allows Dark Confidant to be in play for 17.64 consecutive turns. I have a very hard time understanding the damage argument when people run Dark Confidant with Force or Will and Inkwell Leviathan. Look at Stephen Q. Menedian's Confidant Control list. He has a full compliment of Dark Confidants and his deck tops out at a converted mana cost of 1.5333333333. That's higher than you average Stax list! Where is the whoop la about his high mana costs?

From my point of view the problem of playing Confidants is not the damage argument rather the question whether to play chalice of the void or not. If you play Confidants, there is no save Chalice value anymore (except 0, but for this you play null rod). Chalice 1 knocks out your Welders and tutors, Chalice for 2 hits tutors again, Null Rod AND Confis.
So my conclusion is: if you are going to play Confis, than play no chalice or only in sideboard.

[RJ]

I have some doubts about using Confidant in Stax. Doesn't it cause too much damage to you  by reveiling smokestack, wires, crucibles than in your oponent?

My Stax list has a converted mana cost of 1.13333333. This allows Dark Confidant to be in play for 17.64 consecutive turns. I have a very hard time understanding the damage argument when people run Dark Confidant with Force or Will and Inkwell Leviathan. Look at Stephen Q. Menedian's Confidant Control list. He has a full compliment of Dark Confidants and his deck tops out at a converted mana cost of 1.5333333333. That's higher than you average Stax list! Where is the whoop la about his high mana costs?

This is the most relevant point in the whole discussion.  I ran confidant in 5c builds a long time ago and found the damage to be inconsequential for a couple reasons.  The deck runs 26-29 mana sources all of which have very low CMC, if not 0.  Then if you have 4 Bazaar you have an additional 4 land in the deck.  This will more than offset the life loss by confidant.  Like Twaun said, Confidant is in decks with FoW, Leviathan, and Darksteel.  I have lost games by flipping Force and Colossus consecutively, but that is not a reason to leave them at home.  Think of Confidants as mini-Necros that beat.  It's like the perfect solution for stax decks that have both a hard time drawing cards and then a hard time winning in midgame when you have the advantage. 

From my point of view the problem of playing Confidants is not the damage argument rather the question whether to play chalice of the void or not. If you play Confidants, there is no save Chalice value anymore (except 0, but for this you play null rod). Chalice 1 knocks out your Welders and tutors, Chalice for 2 hits tutors again, Null Rod AND Confis.
So my conclusion is: if you are going to play Confis, than play no chalice or only in sideboard.

Not true.  It is common to see chalice and welder in the same list.  If the above is true then that shouldn't happen either.  Lots of lists play cards that don't play well together, but there is no rule that says you have to play cards right when you draw them.  Now you don't want to lock out most of your deck, but I would guess that the matches that chalice would be set on 2, that play will give you a significant advantage when compared to not doing it, so you can play confidant. 

This has been a nice discussion.  I like the idea of maybe a couple mystic remora for the midgame.  I will test this out. 

[TheShop]

Twaan:

Here is the list I am actually working on:

1   Trinisphere
3   Null Rod
1   Seal of Cleansing
4   Chalice of the Void
3   Smokestack
3   Crucible of Worlds
3   Tangle Wire
4   Dark Confidant
4   Goblin Welder
1   Balance
1   Ancestral Recall
1   Tinker
1   Demonic Tutor
1   Vampiric Tutor
1   Imperial Seal
1   Crop Rotation
1   Karn, Silver Golem
4   Mishra's Workshop
1   Tolarian Academy
4   Wasteland
1   Strip Mine
4   City of Brass
3   Gemstone Mine
1   Barbarian Ring
1   Mox Emerald
1   Mox Jet
1   Mox Pearl
1   Mox Ruby
1   Mox Sapphire
1   Sol Ring
1   Mana Vault
1   Black Lotus
If I added this right, I have an average mana cost of 1.183 which is not really an issue with confidant either.

I am not saying that this the best list, optimum list, or anything else.  And I hope I did not offend you somehow with my last post:  this is just what I have been working on.  My main issue with the build I have built is that Karn does not work well with Rod, but he is the lowest mana-cost of the tinker targets.  I don't know how big a deal it is though, as he has been run in UbaStax decks that ran Rod before.

The crop rotation could easily become Bazaar 1 of 4.

I would love any comments or suggestions to improve the current list.  And I have not tried to argue, just airing out some issues I have with the standard build.

EDIT:  I concur with RJ's comments on Chalice and Confidant dmg wholeheartedly.