[Deck] Bomberman

[Anusien]

Even post-restrictions, Bomberman is still a force to be reckoned with.  It seems like the restriction of TfK and Brainstorm should hurt it, but Bomberman ran fewer dead cards and it has probably the best unrestricted tutor in the format.  Most Tezzeret decks run the full suite of blue draw spells and then turn to Sensei's Divining Tops.  This deck has much better access to those Tops, and has extra paths to victory in the form of attacking and Salvagers combo.  Sure, you have one less tutor (Vampiric Tutor) to get Time Vault than other lists, but you have 4 extra tutors for Voltaic Key.

With 4 Trinket Mages and 3 Auriok Salvagers, Bomberman is one of the more consistent decks available in the format.  The first Trinket Mage almost always goes for Black Lotus which can often give you a huge advantage in the Mana Drain mirror matches.  With 4 Trinket Mage, it has a significantly better matchup against Dredge both pre- and post-board.  The disadvantage is that a handful of your slots are tied up with the combo, so you can't run the set of topdeck tutors, bounce, artifact removal and Spell Pierce/Duress without making some cuts.  Plus, you have Aether Spellbomb as a colorless way to bounce Iona.

I actually fought the inclusion of both Painter's Servant/Grindstone and Voltaic Key/Time Vault.  I think Time Vault is too good not to run.  This isn't the best Time Vault deck imaginable (no Tezzeret for one thing) but it is still one of the better deck options.  The fact is that Time Vault actually makes our Yawgmoth's Wills better.  You can set up Will and be okay throwing away Time Walk or Black Lotus if you need to because you have more combo power in the deck.

One of the things I really about playing Bomberman is that you aren't limited in your paths to victory.  You have a certain immunity to Sadistic Sacrament, but more than that, you have a ton of redundancy in your victory conditions.  When I played Tezzeret, I felt a little helpless sometimes when Tezzeret got killed.  "I only have Voltaic Key left as my route to victory".  Here you have ways to get back Key as well as Top and Crypt.  It is not insignificant that you have a lot of creatures and can attack for the win.

My list:
4 Trinket Mage
3 Auriok Salvagers
1 Darksteel Colossus

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Echoing Truth
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Gifts Ungiven
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
3 Repeal
1 Thirst for Knowledge

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ponder
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Aether Spellbomb
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Time Vault
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Voltaic Key

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
2 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Island

What's not here
Duress: I prefer Spell Pierce to this card, as I talk about in one of the Adept Q&A
Spell Pierce: It was this or Repeal, and I chose the card that lets me draw.
Aven Mindcensor: As fun as this card is, there are only 4 real targets plus lands left in most people's decks.  These slots went to get the Time Vault + Key combination as well as the giant draw spells to keep up with the other blue decks.
Dark Confidant: I've never been a fan of this spell.  The giant blue draw spells work better with Dark Confidant.
Vampiric and Mystical Tutor: No slots.  Plus, these tend to be weak in blue mirrors where you don't want to give up cards in hand.
Tolaria West: I think the format may just be too fast for this card if you ever have to play it as a land.

[meadbert]

Does Intuition/AK work in this deck?  Intuition can find Lotus + Spellbomb with Salvagers out or all 3 Salvagers EOT if you are ready to win next turn.

[Anusien]

It basically never happens that you have Salvagers without Lotus.  I doubt I'd want to keep a hand like that because it would be too slow.  Finding Salvagers EOT is interesting, but doesn't Vampiric Tutor work better in that case?

Intuition/AK is interesting, but I don't know what I'd cut.

[FireChild335]

I think if you are going for the combo kill you should run a Lion's Eye Diamond as well. Its just another version of lotus and you make enough mana and then draw the cards you need

[rocketrae21]

I was never a fan of using the draw and then sit with your creatures. I figure if you are going to get Salvagers and Lotus out why not just kill with Pyrite Spellbomb?

[Anusien]

Pyrite Spellbomb doesn't help me before the kill the way Salvagers does.  I can put all my guys on the table and either Time Walk or just combo off with Time Vault.

Lion's Eye Diamond is miserable.  99% of the time, the way I combo out is by casting turn 3 Trinket Mage to get Lotus, and then casting Salvagers floating W, and bringing back Salvagers that turn.  LED can't do that.  Plus, at least a third of the time when I make infinite mana with Salvagers, I don't have one of the draw trinkets available.  I just rely on casting every spell in my hand for free.  LED breaks both those plans.  Plus, as I said, I almost always have Lotus because I fetch it out first.  LED is only good at comboing off; I can't even just hold up Drain with it.

[meadbert]

LED and Pyrite are both win more cards.  LED only helps once Salvagers is in play in which case you are probably winning anyway.  You would almost never tutor for it and with Thirst restricted it is even worse than it used to be.

Pyrite is a win more.  After explosives, spellbomb and crypt wipe your opponent's board and graveyard and you assemble a hand of counters and you play out your creatures you should be able to Win.  In order for this to fail you would need to already have Vault, Walk and Yawg in the yard.  Then your opponent would have to have hand that I cannot even fathom in order to get past 7 counters and win without a graveyard.  I am unaware of even a single situation where you can lose.  Is there a burn card with split second and you are at 2 life?  That is about all I can come up with.  
That is rare enough that Pyrite just does not make sense.

[Anusien]

The only time Pyrite Spellbomb would be useful is if I managed to combo out on turn 5 of extra turns.  That's a corner case enough situation that I feel fine ignoring it.  Obviously now it's going to happen to me though.

[kalisia]

Ok, Pyrite Spellbomb is not a good choice, but drawing his entire deck with Aether Spellbomb without a way to win on the spot is really bad. The solution is just Tendrils of Agony!

If you want, you can go here (8th place):   http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1014
And here with a slightly different list (1st place):  http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1066

The lists are now unlegal because of the restriction of Thirst for Knowledge, but it was the beginning of the concept.
There were 4 colors in the deck at this time, but I founded ways to reduce it to 3 colors only (without green).

@Anusien : if you are fan of Bomberman but dislike the too many slots required for the combo, I suggest you to play your Bomberman deck with just 4 or 5 changes (3 colors are the best choice (UBw)) : play only one or 2 Auriok, only 2 Trinket Mages, 2 Repeal maximum, add Mystical & Vampiric tutor, add one Intuition (necessary in the deck I suggest), try to add at least one copy of Mystical Teachings (but I found the optimal number is 2). After some tests, you will see that trinket is not the best unrestricted tutor and that Teachings is way much stronger! With enough mana, one Auriok and one Teachings wins you the game on the spot, Black Lotus and one Teachings wins as well...why? Because Teachings finds Vampiric, which finds the missing piece. Once you produce infinite mana, you play easily the flash-back of Teachings on Intuition, which finds Aether Spellbomb. Trinket only finds one piece of the combo, it is a huge difference!

[Blue Lotus]

He does have a way to win on the spot:

Draw and play all of your creatures, bounce all of their creatures, play Time Walk, win.  

If I ran Intuition/AK in this deck, I would go five color mana base for access to Ancient Grudge.

Edit - you could even run an oath transformational board with Orchard maindeack if your meta has lots of graveyard hate. 

[honestabe]

I feel that right now, Bomberman wouldn't be too effective with a list so simaler to Tezz.  The straight Tezz build is just better than a Bomberman build trying to use a Tezz shell.  Through some testing, I feel that the best way to go with the list right now is controll heavy; even more so than Tezzeret.

Here's a list I've been testing via MWS and have been having great success with.

Land 15
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Library of Alexandria

Creatures 7
4 Dark Confdant
2 Auriok Salvagers
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

Instants 21
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
3 Spell Snare (Could be Spell Peirce)
1 Repeal
1 Ancestral Recal
1 Brainstorm
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Argavian Find
1 Gifts Ungiven
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor

Sorceries 5
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk
1 Merchant Scroll


Artifacts 11
5 Mox
1 Mana Crypt
1 Aether Spellbomb
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Sol Ring
1 Senseis' Divining Top

Planes Walkers 1
1 Tezzeret, the Seeker

Sideboard 15
4 Duress
3 Tormods Crypt
3 Mystic Remora
1 Darkblast
1 Pithing Needle
2 Hurkyls Recall
1 Yixlid Jailer


Argivian find makes Gifts an Insta-win, when you search for Time Vault, Yawg's Will, Argavian find, and voltaic key

also, Tezz is even more useful in this list, allowing you to searh for lotus, spellbomb, voltaic key, or time vault, whichever is necissary

[Anusien]

I feel that right now, Bomberman wouldn't be too effective with a list so simaler to Tezz.  The straight Tezz build is just better than a Bomberman build trying to use a Tezz shell.

Back this claim up.  You need a warrant or a "because" somewhere in there.

Through some testing, I feel that the best way to go with the list right now is controll heavy; even more so than Tezzeret.

Part of the reason I moved to Bomberman is because I don't want to try and control the game.  This is a huge mistake I think.  There are too many bombs and not enough answers.  Rather, I want to have the most consistent path to landing my bombs as possible.  I think Bomberman does this.  I like having the extra 3 must counters in Salvagers as well as always having Trinket Mage.

Ok, Pyrite Spellbomb is not a good choice, but drawing his entire deck with Aether Spellbomb without a way to win on the spot is really bad. The solution is just Tendrils of Agony!

God no.  Apparently people don't know how the deck works, so let's go through it.
1) Assemble Black Lotus + Auriok Salvagers + 1W
2) Make infinite mana
Everyone is with me to this point.  Most people think there's secretly a third step here, "Find Aether Spellbomb".  But not really.  It's pretty damn hard for your opponents to win when you can cast your whole hand.  But let's say you find a way to draw cards (usually Aether Spellbomb, but sometimes EE + Sensei's Divining Top).  This is a win.  Tendrils of Agony and Pyrite Spellbombs are wasted slots.  Once you can draw your deck you can:

Crypt your opponent
EE every relevant permanent CMC 1-5
Return all their creatures to their hand
Play every creature in your deck
Take infinite turns
...
You don't need more than that.  Hell, just having Darksteel Colossus + bouncing their board lets you win in two turns.  Tendrils and Pyrite Spellbomb let me win without having to pass the turn.  But who cares, since I'm taking the next turn anyway.  And even if I'm not, I'm going to play every creature I have, wrath their side of the board, crypt them, get 7 counters in hand and pass the turn.  Good luck getting out of that one.  In multiple tournaments, winning multiple pieces of power, I have never lost after assembling Salvagers + Lotus + way to draw cards.

I mean, come on.  Those lists aren't even Bomberman.  They're combo with an Auriok Salvagers to do cool things every once in a while.  Stop pimping Manuel Sternis, who ever that is, and go start your own thread?

Mystical Teachings seems really slow.  4 mana to get Ancestral Recall or Mystical Tutor or Vampiric Tutor is really bad.  I don't even want to run Mystical or Vampiric because they're slow and awful.  I'm not even sure I want Gifts Ungiven in the deck.


So let's talk this list specifically.  What good is Intuition if you aren't already winning?  Like sure, Intuition is hot if you already have Salvagers + Lotus, but so is every other spell imaginable.

[Shean]

Anusien-

I really like your list.

After failing a tournament with Mishra's Workshop, I'm beginning to think I'm just a Mana Drain player.  Every tournament I've won power in has been with Mana Drains, so I guess I should probably stick with what I know.  

I'm with you on the Tezz lists, they just feel so weak as far as number of win conditions go.  When I last played, I was playing CS, which had something like 7-8 win conditions (if you count the Goblin Welders + Gorilla Shaman).

I'm wondering what your SB currently looks like.  Could you give me any info on that?

As for your maindeck, the only thing I would consider trying to find a spot for would be a Darkblast.  In my testing, I've been seeing a ton of Dark Confidant and, to a much lesser extent, Goblin Welder.  Although, since I haven't sufficiently tested your deck, I don't know what I would want to cut.  I just feel that Darkblast is a card that I would actually want to tutor for whenever a Dark Confidant resolves.  Given the fact that you don't run Mystical or Vampiric Tutor, you may have made the correct decision.  I'm not even going to mention Pyrite Spellbomb, since it has been discussed ad nauseam (haha, u c wat i did there?) already.

I will definitely be testing this in the upcoming days.

Thanks for posting this.

[zeus-online]

If people really want some way to instant kill after you've comboed out (Which is overkill btw) play with a couple of cunning wish and 1 brainfreeze/Stroke of genius/something...Not that i recommend it, but cunning wish is a fine playable card...You would waste 1 perfectly fine SB slot though.

[Phele]

I didn't test it intensively so far so feel free to put this idea right away. But what about something like this?

Noble Bomberman

4 Trinket Mage
4 Cold-eyed Selkie
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Quasali Pridemage
2 Auriok Salvagers

4 FoW
3 Mana Drain
3 Spell Snare
1 Misdirection
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Brainstorm
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ponder
1 Hurkyls Recall

1 Aether Spellbomb
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Senseis Divining Top
1 Tormods Crypt
1 Voltaic Key
1 Time Vault

1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Tolarian Acadamy
1 Library of Alexandria/Savannah/Fetch/Trop/Tundra

Board:

3 Trygon Predator
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sower of Temptation
3 Wheel of Sun and Moon
3 Children of Korlis
1 Pithing Needle

When I saw and played the amazing Noble Fish I always thought that other decks with creatures in this colour spectrum could use the Exalted engine – so Bomberman or Painter.

As I do think that Painter is too vulnerable in the moment with all this artefact hate out there I opted for a Bomberman shell. Instead of more disruption like in Noble Fish it bets on having combo outs that can attack and so taking advantage of the Exalted engine while drawing enough cards to find the whole combo.

It relies more on redundancy than on tutoring so no Tinker in this list. But it wouldn’t be too difficult to make space for it. But I don’t feel the need for a robot. I already play enough creatures to just beat opponents down. And the UWG combination offers lots of choices for main- and sideboard answers.

And while lists without G need more bounce to make the way free for your combo, you have Quasali that can sac away almost everything that could hinder any of your combo parts – while being a strong beater. Not to forget that you can rely on massive card advantage by Selkie. So playing out pure Control, what Bomberman always was good at with all its solutions maindeck, is a definite choice. Spell Snare could be Spell Pierce, I am not sure about this, as the deck doesn’t play the mana denial route and we have lots of Fishes in our meta.

I really like this list, even though it definitely needs optimization.

[LotusHead]

I didn't test it intensively so far so feel free to put this idea right away. But what about something like this?

Noble Bomberman

I really like this list, even though it definitely needs optimization.

I'm stunned that you fit 11 non-bomberman cards into a bomberman deck...

Will investigate...

[kalisia]

I mean, come on.  Those lists aren't even Bomberman.  They're combo with an Auriok Salvagers to do cool things every once in a while.  Stop pimping Manuel Sternis, who ever that is, and go start your own thread?

Relax Anusien, I don't criticize your list so be cool. It's an efficient build in the standard logic of what a Bomberman deck is, and the deck won a lot of events.
I'm just showing an other way that can be explored, keeping the card Auriok Salvagers (that I really love) and the majority of Bomberman tools. Your list is controlish, mine is more combo, is that a real problem? I don't think so!
So, do you really think that replacing 4 or 5 cards in your list will change it? A deck with an Auriok + Lotus + Spellbomb combo can be considered as a Bomberman deck, we should be less conservative...
And I consider that testing & playing new/unusual cards (if it can help a deck to perform well) is deckbuilding, not pimping. If trying cards like Mystical Teachings is pimping, then adding Vaut-Key in a Bomberman deck, may be, could be called ultra-pimping.
But as you said, I started a small article, and I 'll post it when it is finished.

Quote from: kalisia on Yesterday at 06:15:41 PM
Ok, Pyrite Spellbomb is not a good choice, but drawing his entire deck with Aether Spellbomb without a way to win on the spot is really bad. The solution is just Tendrils of Agony!
God no.  Apparently people don't know how the deck works, so let's go through it.
1) Assemble Black Lotus + Auriok Salvagers + 1W
2) Make infinite mana
Everyone is with me to this point.  Most people think there's secretly a third step here, "Find Aether Spellbomb".  But not really.  It's pretty damn hard for your opponents to win when you can cast your whole hand.  But let's say you find a way to draw cards (usually Aether Spellbomb, but sometimes EE + Sensei's Divining Top).  This is a win.  Tendrils of Agony and Pyrite Spellbombs are wasted slots.  Once you can draw your deck you can:
Crypt your opponent
EE every relevant permanent CMC 1-5
Return all their creatures to their hand
Play every creature in your deck
Take infinite turns

I agree that Pyrite Spellbomb doesn't fit well in this type of build.
Tendrils of Agony is different. The card is sufficient itself and can win without having to assemble any combo.
I agree that the card, to be included in any shell, needs some particular adaptations in the maindeck.

In tournament, it usually happens to arrive into the extra turns. And a lot of times, as many players, I add to win on the last turn.
In this case, assemble the combo with Auriok to draw his deck and play creatures is not enough to win. Tendrils can do it, and helps to win quickly.

Mystical Teachings seems really slow.  4 mana to get Ancestral Recall or Mystical Tutor or Vampiric Tutor is really bad.  I don't even want to run Mystical or Vampiric because they're slow and awful.  I'm not even sure I want Gifts Ungiven in the deck.

It is the part where I really disagree with this point of vue.
IMO not play Vampiric and Mystical Tutor, when you play Tinker maindeck, means you lose two ways to find one of the most broken plays of the deck.
Mystical Teachings : It takes time, and a lot of tests and games to understand all the possibilities of the card. I discovered myself some powerful ''hidden'' tricks after weeks of testing.
Concerning the casting cost : four mana, is it really slow to win the following turn? Is it better to cast a three mana spell at sorcery speed like Trinket Mage, or wait one turn more, and play a four mana instant speed spell, who allows to win the next turn? Difficult question. But at the time of Gifts decks, everybody was playing four Gifts Ungiven, and nobody said four mana was too much. I almost never use Mystical Teachings to find Ancestral Recall or Mystical Tutor. The first target should be always Gifts Ungiven, as it sets up a complete win.

In multiple tournaments, winning multiple pieces of power, I have never lost after assembling Salvagers + Lotus + way to draw cards.

For sure!
Who lost after assembling Auriok + Lotus + card drawer ?
The problem in a list with 4 Trinket Mage is that if you draw 2 or 3 copies of it, it becomes really quickly useless.
And one Trinket finds only Lotus OR Spellbomb. So it must be sometimes difficult to find the three pieces of the combo.

So let's talk this list specifically.  What good is Intuition if you aren't already winning?  Like sure, Intuition is hot if you already have Salvagers + Lotus, but so is every other spell imaginable.

As Meadbert said, if you have Salvagers on board, you don't need Lotus.
Intuition finds alone Lotus and Aether Spellbomb. For this reason the card is a must have, it forms a complete 2-card combo with Auriok Salvagers.

[Anusien]

I mean, come on.  Those lists aren't even Bomberman.  They're combo with an Auriok Salvagers to do cool things every once in a while.  Stop pimping Manuel Sternis, who ever that is, and go start your own thread?

Relax Anusien, I don't criticize your list so be cool. It's an efficient build in the standard logic of what a Bomberman deck is, and the deck won a lot of events.
I'm just showing an other way that can be explored, keeping the card Auriok Salvagers (that I really love) and the majority of Bomberman tools. Your list is controlish, mine is more combo, is that a real problem? I don't think so!
And I consider that testing & playing new/unusual cards (if it can help a deck to perform well) is deckbuilding, not pimping. If trying cards like Mystical Teachings is pimping, then adding Vaut-Key in a Bomberman deck, may be, could be called ultra-pimping.

Ug, did you even listen?  This thread is about a combo-control deck called Bomberman featuring Trinket Mages and Auriok Salvagers.  If your deck doesn't have Trinket Mage, it doesn't belong in this thread.

I agree that Pyrite Spellbomb doesn't fit well in this type of build.
Tendrils of Agony is different. The card is sufficient itself and can win without having to assemble any combo.
I agree that the card, to be included in any shell, needs some particular adaptations in the maindeck.
In tournament, it usually happens to arrive into the extra turns. And a lot of times, I add to win of the last turn.
In this case, assemble the combo with Auriok to draw his deck and play creatures is not enough to win. Tendrils can do it, and helps to win quickly.

At least Pyrite Spellbomb does something pre-combo.  I'd rather that than Tendrils.  I'm willing to take the risk that I'll draw a match because I don't have access to an instant win card.  I don't think further discussion of "Does the deck really need Pyrite Spellbomb/Tendrils of Agony/Brain Freeze/Strike of Genius/Goblin Bombardment" is useful.  Everyone with experience with the deck says it's not, and we're not likely to change our minds.  It's a pretty novice question.

Mystical Teachings seems really slow.  4 mana to get Ancestral Recall or Mystical Tutor or Vampiric Tutor is really bad.  I don't even want to run Mystical or Vampiric because they're slow and awful.  I'm not even sure I want Gifts Ungiven in the deck.

It is the part where I really disagree with this point of vue.
IMO not play Vampiric and Mystical Tutor, when you play Tinker maindeck, means you lose two ways to find one of the most broken plays of the deck.
Mystical Teachings : It takes time, and a lot of tests and games to understand all the possibilities of the card. I discovered myself some powerful ''hidden'' tricks after weeks of testing.
Concerning the casting cost : four mana, is it really slow to win the following turn? Is it better to cast a three mana spell at sorcery speed like Trinket Mage, or wait one turn more, and play a four mana instant speed spell, who allows to win the next turn? Difficult question. But at the time of Gifts decks, everybody was playing four Gifts Ungiven, and nobody said four mana was too much. I almost never use Mystical Teachings to find Ancestral Recall or Mystical Tutor. The first target should be always Gifts Ungiven, as it sets up a complete win.

Tinker isn't the most important card in the maindeck.  That honor probably goes to Time Walk.

Also, I don't think you can cast a Gifts onto an empty board that guarantees a win without dramatically changing the deck around.

Sure, Gifts is 4 mana.  You'd have to build your deck around it.  I don't run Crypt or Vault.

In multiple tournaments, winning multiple pieces of power, I have never lost after assembling Salvagers + Lotus + way to draw cards.

For sure!
Who lost after assembling Auriok + Lotus + card drawer ?
The problem in a list with 4 Trinket Mage is that if you draw 2 or 3 copies of it, it becomes really quickly useless.
And one Trinket finds only Lotus OR Spellbomb. So it must be sometimes difficult to find the three pieces of the combo.

It's clear this isn't coming across well, probably due to your inexperience with the dcek.  I don't care about Aether Spellbomb.  I rarely tutor it up; I only dig Spellbomb up if I'm going to win on the spot or I need to deal with Colossus or an Oathed creature or something.  The second Trinket Mage in Drain mirrors usually goes for Sensei's Divining Top because it comboes with Repeal and it helps you draw fewer blanks.
Did you also just say "Trinket Mage only finds one piece of the combo, it sucks." and "Multiple Trinket Mages suck together?"  I'm never unhappy to draw Trinket Mages because they get me bombs and put pressure on the poponent.  If you don't see that, perhaps you should go play a different deck.

So let's talk this list specifically.  What good is Intuition if you aren't already winning?  Like sure, Intuition is hot if you already have Salvagers + Lotus, but so is every other spell imaginable.

As Meadbert said, if you have Salvagers on board, you don't need Lotus.
Intuition finds alone Lotus and Aether Spellbomb.

If you read what I said, I pointed out that you almost never have a draw with Salvagers and no Lotus.  Hands like that aren't generally keepable, and you have a million ways to find Black Lotus.  I'm not really concerned with finding Aether Spellbomb; once you get Lotus that's basically enough.  And the deck doesn't have to combo out.  It's not primarily a combo deck.

[RJ]

I generally enjoy playing the deck because of its nearly even matchups against every deck.  You have the tools and resources to attack every deck in the format and playskill normally determines your success at each tournament.

I like Kevin's list.  The addition of Vault/Key is the next logical step.  It's too powerful a combo not to run.  I like the addition of black.  It gives you access to lots of cards out of the board to shore up some of your toughest matchups.  Personally, I play Dark confidants in my lists.  It's additional draw and makes beating down that much easier.  Since most decks are prepared for Confidant, leaving him out may not be that big of a deal though.  I agree with Kevin that Gifts is too slow.  It doesn't do enough in this list to really warrant it's inclusion. 

[Wagner]

I feel I must chime in here. It's been a while since I played the deck and I too won several pieces of power with it and played it since it's beginnings on the drawing board.

The awesome thing about Bomberman is that is is incredibly polyvalent and that you can change your game plan very quickly, be it control, combo or even aggro at times.

Trinket Mage IS the most useful card in the deck, if you don't run 4 of those, you are doing something wrong. It slows down aggro, with a 2/2 body and explosives, it hurts combo and Dredge with Crypt and it just finds combo pieces.

I've never been a real fan of running black, you get a tutor and Will (which is far from broken in this deck, but still good) but you weaken your mana-base, which is a strong point of this deck.

I think your list is all right Anusien, but I feel you have too many bounce spells. Repeals are all right, but do you really need an Echoing Truth with that? I know it's always fun to have a safety net, but this deck as enough answers as it is. I never ran it and never wished I did.

I agree with the TV combo, too strong not to include.

Last time I played the deck, I added Ethersworn Canonist and was very impressed. You can just play him and play the control game against all control and combo decks since you can most likely just counter any bounce they have. He is also good against aggro and he doesn't stop any of your combos. He replaces Aven Mindcensor in my latest versions.


Kalisia, the decks you proposed are pretty much combo decks, they don't have anything to do with Bomberman and will suffer the same problems as combo decks and play entirely different. They should not be discussed here.


Here is what I would change to the list posted by Anusien.

- 1 Demonic
- 1 Y. Will
- 1 Echoing Truth
- 1 Gifts Ungiven (not as good without Will)
- 2 U. Sea

+ 3 Ethersworn Canonist
+ 1 Spell Pierce/Negate/Mana Leak/Spell Snare
+ 1 Polluted Delta
+ 1 Mana Crypt

Why isn't Mana Crypt on your list??? I agree it can make you lose games, but when you run Tinker, this risk is highly lowered and it allows broken 1st turn Trinket or Salvager.


About the sideboard, what do you think should be in there? As I said, I did not play it since Thirst was restricted, so I may be a bit rusty.

[RJ]

I feel I must chime in here. It's been a while since I played the deck and I too won several pieces of power with it and played it since it's beginnings on the drawing board.

The awesome thing about Bomberman is that is is incredibly polyvalent and that you can change your game plan very quickly, be it control, combo or even aggro at times.

Trinket Mage IS the most useful card in the deck, if you don't run 4 of those, you are doing something wrong. It slows down aggro, with a 2/2 body and explosives, it hurts combo and Dredge with Crypt and it just finds combo pieces.

I've never been a real fan of running black, you get a tutor and Will (which is far from broken in this deck, but still good) but you weaken your mana-base, which is a strong point of this deck.

I think your list is all right Anusien, but I feel you have too many bounce spells. Repeals are all right, but do you really need an Echoing Truth with that? I know it's always fun to have a safety net, but this deck as enough answers as it is. I never ran it and never wished I did.

I agree with the TV combo, too strong not to include.

Last time I played the deck, I added Ethersworn Canonist and was very impressed. You can just play him and play the control game against all control and combo decks since you can most likely just counter any bounce they have. He is also good against aggro and he doesn't stop any of your combos. He replaces Aven Mindcensor in my latest versions.


Kalisia, the decks you proposed are pretty much combo decks, they don't have anything to do with Bomberman and will suffer the same problems as combo decks and play entirely different. They should not be discussed here.


Here is what I would change to the list posted by Anusien.

- 1 Demonic
- 1 Y. Will
- 1 Echoing Truth
- 1 Gifts Ungiven (not as good without Will)
- 2 U. Sea

+ 3 Ethersworn Canonist
+ 1 Spell Pierce/Negate/Mana Leak/Spell Snare
+ 1 Polluted Delta
+ 1 Mana Crypt

Why isn't Mana Crypt on your list??? I agree it can make you lose games, but when you run Tinker, this risk is highly lowered and it allows broken 1st turn Trinket or Salvager.


About the sideboard, what do you think should be in there? As I said, I did not play it since Thirst was restricted, so I may be a bit rusty.

I agree that if you are in a wasteland heavy metagame you will need resiliency so a two color manabase makes the most sense.  However, if you are fighting against non-wasteland decks, three colors is more powerful and more flexible. 

[Anusien]

I've never been a real fan of running black, you get a tutor and Will (which is far from broken in this deck, but still good) but you weaken your mana-base, which is a strong point of this deck.

Thanks for the feedback.  I think black may be a necessity.  Your Wills are weaker than most decks in the format, but I think you need Will to keep up with the Drain decks.  For all that your Wills are mediocre, they still provide more card advantage in the late game than any other spell.

I think your list is all right Anusien, but I feel you have too many bounce spells. Repeals are all right, but do you really need an Echoing Truth with that? I know it's always fun to have a safety net, but this deck as enough answers as it is. I never ran it and never wished I did.

It's possible.  The Echoing Truth is a card I'm just used to putting in the deck.

Last time I played the deck, I added Ethersworn Canonist and was very impressed. You can just play him and play the control game against all control and combo decks since you can most likely just counter any bounce they have. He is also good against aggro and he doesn't stop any of your combos. He replaces Aven Mindcensor in my latest versions.

I have several in the sideboard.  They're definitely what the deck needed to fix its biggest weakness: the combo matchups.  I'm not sure how good it is against control decks because it makes you unable to protect your spells either.

- 1 Demonic
- 1 Y. Will
- 1 Echoing Truth
- 1 Gifts Ungiven (not as good without Will)
- 2 U. Sea

+ 3 Ethersworn Canonist
+ 1 Spell Pierce/Negate/Mana Leak/Spell Snare
+ 1 Polluted Delta
+ 1 Mana Crypt

Why do people insist on playing Bomberman like Keeper?  Every relevant suggestion has been "Play the deck to control the game better by running more counterspells."  Why is this a good strategy?  The entire evolution of Vintage has been about building a better combo-control deck.  I think this deck has the potential to do that.  I certainly don't want to cut bombs and tutors for counters.

Why isn't Mana Crypt on your list??? I agree it can make you lose games, but when you run Tinker, this risk is highly lowered and it allows broken 1st turn Trinket or Salvager.

I used to hate Mana Crypt.  The format has sped up significantly than then, it may be worth evaluating again.

About the sideboard, what do you think should be in there? As I said, I did not play it since Thirst was restricted, so I may be a bit rusty.

My sideboard has some combination of:
Ethersworn Canonist
Exalted Angel
Wrath of God
Perish/Nature's Ruin
Claws of Gix
Spawning Pit
Tormod's Crypt
Relic of Progenitus
Yixlid Jailer
Ravenous Trap
Mystic Remora
Rebuild
Hurkyl's Recall

[Grand Inquisitor]

The entire evolution of Vintage has been about building a better combo-control deck

This.  And this...

The straight Tezz build is just better than a Bomberman build trying to use a Tezz shell.

Perhaps you rightly called out this poster for lack of argument on why Tez is better.  However, I think the much stronger onus is on people arguing that Bomberman is somehow now viable.  One only has to look at morphling.de to see why Tezzeret might be stronger.

Traditionally Bomberman has been eaten alive by faster combo-control decks.  It thrives in environments full of fish, workshops or ichorid where its trinket targets are more relevant.  Right now there's no strong presence of these outside fish, and instead the metagame is dominated by Tez and Oath (which is bad to play creatures against).

So certainly, optimizing Bomberman for this metagame could be an interesting excersize, but maybe we should start with a stronger foundation of why this strategy is attractive in the first place.

[Anusien]

I did my best to do that, but I think most people skipped over the original post.
It's actually not correct to say that Bomberman has been eaten alive by faster combo-control decks.  Bomberman has traditionally been a monster against both CS and Gifts.  Needle, EE and Crypt were very good against CS, and Crypt and Mindcensor were insane against Gifts.  The maindeck Crypt is actually one of the best cards in the deck in Drain matchups.  Hell, even into the Gush era, BrassMan and I found in testing that Gush Bomberman was beating GAT because Trinket Mage tutoring up Black Lotus was very good.  Hell, the very first Tezzeret decks were dramatically afraid of Bomberman because Aven Mindcensor was a beating and a half for Tezeret.

Let's end the historical aside.  Tezzeret is basically all singletons, and has a tendency to be inconsistent.  Bomberman is still full of 3 and 4 ofs, so it has a measure of stability.  Plus, it has the tendency to be significantly more explosive because it always sees Black Lotus.  This is a huge advantage in Drain matchups.  The way these games play out is that you play turn 2-3 Trinket Mage fetching Black Lotus, and put a clock on.  Then the second Trinket Mage fetches Sensei's Divining Top.  Top advantage in a blue mirror is one of the easiest ways to get ahead.  You're running basically the same cards as the Tezzeret deck, but you have more ways to get card advantage.  In this specific build, I've cut three cards from the maindeck that tend to get sided out in Drain mirrors anyway: Vampiric Tutor, Mystical Tutor and Mana Crypt.
You also have more must-counters in the matchup than Tezzeret does, because all your Salvagers are really powerful.  You're basically running 4 copies of Time Vault (3 Salvagers + Time Vault).  I'll give you an example from a game against Oath last week.  I led out with a Trinket Mage fetching Engineered Explosives.  He countered the Explosives.  At some point, I found a Black Lotus and followed with a Gifts Ungiven, which he countered.  I drew Salvagers and he was out of counters.

In short, Bomberman traditionally has had enough as many bombs and as much disruption as the Drain decks, but had better access to certain key cards like Black Lotus, Tormod's Crypt, and Sensei's Divining Top.  Crypt is especially nice because it lets you focus your counters more.  At the end of the day, Bomberman had more must-counters, especially because Bomberman could basically always answer Colossus (Inkwell is problematic though).

Traditionally, Bomberman could never beat combo.  Then Ethersworn Canonist was printed.  This goes a long way toward improving that matchup.

Side note: I had expected Oath to be a bad matchup for Bomberman, but I've been tearing it apart locally, so who knows.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Let's end the historical aside

Sure, but I have serious issues with some of these contentions.

Tezzeret is basically all singletons, and has a tendency to be inconsistent

Strangely, these two characteristics don't correlate.  Maybe in terms of speciific plays, but not insofar as things like 'tutors are functionally equivalent'.  Tezzeret is one of the most consistent decks you can play.  I think part of it has to do with the mana curve (which has always been a problem for me with Bomberman).

play turn 2-3 Trinket Mage fetching Black Lotus

On the play with a mox, sure.  However, often times that trinket mage gets drained into Gifts or Tezzeret or something else monstrous on the other side.  Granted this risk is much smaller now that TFK (and Gifts) have been restricted.  However, it's likely that while you're putting your opponent on a 'clock', they're setting up the combo, or protecting an oath.

The rest of your post is really beguiling to me.

You're basically running 4 copies of Time Vault (3 Salvagers + Time Vault). 

I'll give you an example from a game against Oath last week.  I led out with a Trinket Mage fetching Engineered Explosives.  He countered the Explosives.  At some point, I found a Black Lotus and followed with a Gifts Ungiven, which he countered.  I drew Salvagers and he was out of counters.

How is Salvager (without some other card) like a copy of Time Vault?

How is your example relevant since your opponent didn't have Oath and you just 'found' Black Lotus.  It seems entirely unrealistic at worst and unillustrative at best.

Bomberman traditionally has had enough as many bombs

My point is these bombs are too interdependent and easy drain targets.

access to certain key cards like Black Lotus, Tormod's Crypt, and Sensei's Divining Top.

No one will ever argue over Black Lotus, but it doesn't net mana with Trinket Mage and it presumes that your Mage doesn't get drained.  Tormod's Crypt is at an all time low for relevance.  Sensei's Top is pretty strong, but not broken, especially at 4 mana.

I like the deck and Trinket Mage, it's just that right now they seem too slow and many of the targets not that relevant.  Paying 7 mana to remove Oath of Druids (or Time Vault) just isn't good enough.

[Wagner]

I had expected Oath to be a bad matchup for Bomberman, but I've been tearing it apart locally, so who knows.

For a long time, Oath was an incredibly easy matchup for Bomberman, back in the days it played Meddling Mage (which is still decent). You have as much counter as they have, you have several answers to they combo, you have a combo of your own and after sideboard, you have all the white destroy enchantments you could ask for. I often played 2-3 Ronom Unicorn in the sideboard for Oath and random aggro matchup to playt more creatures.

I'm not sure how good it is against control decks because it makes you unable to protect your spells either.

I find if you have a Canonist in play that you don't need to play spells against Control. You just swing for 2 and counter anything that would remove the Canonist (usually 2-3 cards max). There is no need to try and do your stuff, of course, if you have enough mana to play something else and don't fear the Canonist dying, go right ahead, but otherwise, he's going to win the game by himself.

Why do people insist on playing Bomberman like Keeper?

Why do people insist on playing Bomberman like a combo deck? Style of play I guees   At some point, I played up to 13 creatures in the deck, at other times, I went up to 12 counters. This is highly dependant on the metagame. However, right now I feel Canonist belongs maindeck, and with it should come more counters since it has a very good synergy with them.

For your sideboard, with the rise of Fish decks, I'm surprised to see no StP at all. They are excellent. Also, I would advise against Wrath of God and Exaltred Angel, they both cost double White and you will want them both against deck that will aggressively waste your white mana sources.


Also, a little bit of trivia. Did you know the deck was originally called "Bomb's away"? I don't think I've ever mentioned it in these boards. It got changed cause people couldn't remember the name and cause, you know, Bomberman sounds so much cooler.

[zeus-online]

Hmm...someone sure needs a history lesson...keeper usually only ran 8 counterspells with maybe 1-2 misdirections or an additional counterspell.

Keeper wasn't exactly full of counterspells at any point. That was BBS, U/R Phid and other similar decks.

[Anusien]

Tezzeret is basically all singletons, and has a tendency to be inconsistent

Strangely, these two characteristics don't correlate.  Maybe in terms of speciific plays, but not insofar as things like 'tutors are functionally equivalent'.  Tezzeret is one of the most consistent decks you can play.  I think part of it has to do with the mana curve (which has always been a problem for me with Bomberman).

Actually, my experience was the exact opposite.  Maybe it's that Tezzeret doesn't really have a plan.  I mean sure, you want to play this control game until you're in a point to just win, but there are so many different routes you have to take to get there depending on the game.  Bomberman guarantees you see more copies of the relevant cards because you can run more (and because you have better tutors).  The problem with Tezzeret is that it wants to count DT, Mystical, and Vampiric as extra copies of multiple different cards.  I've played Tezzeret and I've played Bomberman, and I feel that Bomberman performs much more smoothly.  It may be because I have more experience/success with Bomberman.

play turn 2-3 Trinket Mage fetching Black Lotus

On the play with a mox, sure.  However, often times that trinket mage gets drained into Gifts or Tezzeret or something else monstrous on the other side.  Granted this risk is much smaller now that TFK (and Gifts) have been restricted.  However, it's likely that while you're putting your opponent on a 'clock', they're setting up the combo, or protecting an oath.

That's a concern for every possible play you could ever make.  And strangely, spells resolve.  You could say the exact thing where I can drain their Dark Confidants into Salvagers.  Maybe it's that Trinket Mage tends not to be an attractive Mana Drain target.  This is sort of a nihlistic argument that I'm not inclined to give any weight to, especially because modern Tezzeret decks are going en masse to running their own creature-based card advantage engines (Dark Confidant).

The trend with Time Vault decks has been away from Mana Drain and to sorcery speed bombs anyway.  Many Time Vault decks are going to 3 Drains and more Misdirections.  Steel City Vault exists and is popular (and claims to win the mirror, I believe) and it runs 0 Drains and more sorcery speed bombs.  If Tez always Drains your bomb on turn 2 and casts Gifts and wins, then obviously Steel City wouldn't be a deck.

You're basically running 4 copies of Time Vault (3 Salvagers + Time Vault).  

I'll give you an example from a game against Oath last week.  I led out with a Trinket Mage fetching Engineered Explosives.  He countered the Explosives.  At some point, I found a Black Lotus and followed with a Gifts Ungiven, which he countered.  I drew Salvagers and he was out of counters.

How is Salvager (without some other card) like a copy of Time Vault?

How is your example relevant since your opponent didn't have Oath and you just 'found' Black Lotus.  It seems entirely unrealistic at worst and unillustrative at best.

It's possible this is a bad example.  We played a bunch of games, and in a few of them I held back Trinket Mages for a while playing draw/go until I could Trinket Mage + trinket + mana to activate.  Oath is one of the few matchups where you don't always get Black Lotus with the first Trinket Mage.  The point is that once you've gotten Black Lotus, which 90% is the first Trinket Mage target, Salvagers is a must-counter.

Bomberman traditionally has had enough as many bombs

My point is these bombs are too interdependent and easy drain targets.

I don't think you're actually making that argument in a relevant way though.  Like Tez, I also have Fact, Gifts, Will, Thirst, Time Vault, etc.  I don't have the biggest Drain target of them all, Tezzeret.  Instead I have some 4 drop creatures which are immune to Spell Pierce.  Only the Salvagers are interdependent, and that's only on Black Lotus.  And you almost always have Lotus.
But you're right.  It's certainly not like 1 Tezzeret is a staple in the Tez archetype.

access to certain key cards like Black Lotus, Tormod's Crypt, and Sensei's Divining Top.

No one will ever argue over Black Lotus, but it doesn't net mana with Trinket Mage and it presumes that your Mage doesn't get drained.  Tormod's Crypt is at an all time low for relevance.  Sensei's Top is pretty strong, but not broken, especially at 4 mana.

You know, you don't have to crack Black Lotus right away.  A favored play is playing Trinket Mage, getting Lotus and sitting back on Drain.  If they don't cast anything relevant, you untap with 7-8 mana.
I think you underestimate how often the Drain mirror goes to topdecking.  I've had lots of games where I would have killed for Top, 4 mana or no.

Why do people insist on playing Bomberman like a combo deck? Style of play I guees

Historically, being a combo-control deck has been far preferable to just being a control deck.  The most successful counter after Force and Drain has been Misdirection.  Saying "style of play" doesn't let you get around the fact that trying to control the game instead of just winning is a mistake.

[kalisia]

@Anusien : as it seems clear you're trying to optimize the inclusion of Time Vault / Key in the Bomberman shell, a work on a better access to Time Vault could be tried. Mystical and Vampiric out, ok it's your choice as you want to avoid CD cards (even if powerful). May be something to find easily Vault could be tested, Muddle the Mixture comes to my mind, but for sure there must have better tools. I would do something like - 1 Repeal - 1 Auriok + 2 Muddle to see what happens. As I saw Bomberman decks playing things like Spell Snare, Mana Leak in maindeck (added to the 8 classical counters), Muddle should follow the same idea of a really strong counter wall.

[Rico Suave]

2 points:

1) "Vampiric and Mystical Tutor: No slots.  Plus, these tend to be weak in blue mirrors where you don't want to give up cards in hand."

This is a mistake, in my humble opinion.  There is nothing wrong with Mystical or Vamp for Ancestral to put yourself ahead in cards against a blue mirror, especially when you have the means to cast the Ancestral before your opponent has UU up.  Even if they have Force, Mystical -> Ancestral puts you on the same level of net card advantage as your opponent, who has also lost 2 cards.  At no point is any of this "weak" in my opinion. 

Furthermore, if at any point you feel you can win a counter-war, being able to Mystical or Vamp will end the game. 

The ability for Mystical and Vamp to squeeze in at any point in the game to find a real bomb is simply too strong to ignore, even against blue mirrors.  The strength of these cards is that they are playable as early as turn 1, which means that as early as turn 2 you can go on to win. 

2) As far as Bomberman's play against other Drain-based decks, I have to echo GI's concerns. 

The simple fact of the matter is that if you cast a 3cc or higher spell at sorcery speed, and your opponent is untapped with a remotely respectable board position, that spell *must* win the game on the spot.  Otherwise you put yourself at great risk to get nailed by Drain, and even if you win a counter-war you still must pass the turn to your opponent where you will most likely end up losing anyway because you are ill-equipped in that position to stop them from just winning.

Thus I find it difficult to call things like Trinket Mage a "bomb" when you consider that the only thing you get that turn is a 0cc 2/2 on the board.  Sure it may pay dividends the next turn, but for a 3cc sorcery speed spell the risk is too great for the potential reward.   

Now granted having a Trinket Mage against non-Drain decks is an entirely different matter.  Ultimately, when you do face those Drain-based decks, what wins the mirror are instants.  This is why cards like FoF and Gifts Ungiven are restricted, whereas cards like Concentrate are not played at all.  That is why you can let your opponent play a Trinket Mage, and then drop a huge instant on their end of turn step, and then untap and win.