Bloodghasted Ichorid Primer- Looking to the future

[Adan]

Sharuum Dredge is okay, especially because it runs Altar of Dementia and Possessed Portal as a killcondition which can be insane against deck which Wasteland' you a lot. Altar can help you to fuel yourself and Possessed Portal just seals the game immediately as it hits play since it bascially doesn't really affect you (since Dredge is a replacementeffect just like the skipping ability and when 2 replacementeffects occur, you choose one, i.e. you always choose to Dredge and EOT discard a card).

The only thing I'm not comfortable with Sharuum Dredge is the lack of Ichorids due to Wastelands in my meta. It also feels very weak postboard without them. Since I don't own P9 anyway, I'd dedicate the slots for Black Lotus and Ancestral recall for 2 Ichorids minimum. The function as proxy Moebas(Ghasts preboard but gain a fuckload (!!!) of importance in the postboard games.
Resiliency against Extirpate included.

My reasoning for playing my deck as I did was actually a test for BOM in Annecy. I have no clue how the fact that Dredge is the most insane unpowered deck ever (maybe the most insane deck in general after... Hulk Flash?) influences how frequently it will be played, BUT what I know is that I'll be playing a few mirrormatches. I might as well shift the Leylines to the SB, but if you have them maindeck, you can steal g1 in like 80% of the cases. If you resolve Leyline, you win g1.
But with the "new" sideboard (i.e. 4 Chain 4 Claim config), Leyline is definitely not efficient enough postboard.

And the metagame currently looks quite slow, it's not liek there's much fastcombo out there. Most of the time the decks can just go off on Turn 1 with a Yawgmoth's Will involved. Leyline shuts that down.

Against MUD it protects your Bridges. If you can put in Leyline and activate Bazaar at least once, dumping 3 dredgers into your grave, the game is already yours in most of the cases. You then just slowroll Ichorids and Bloodghasts and eventually alphastrike him.

Oath is also very popular at the moment. But what I can tell is that they are slower, if you hit the 2nd Turn land for Fatestitcher and some Ghasts it's most likely over. Leyline is also great here because some Oathdecks play a combokill with Reclamation-Will-Twister. Leyline shuts that off as well.
And against rangom Aggrodecks it also protects the Bridges.

I also like it because on the draw:

Leyline - it doesn't matter, you start with it, it's there for you =D
Unmask - becomes mediocre, if you can't pick a bomb directly it loses importancy. Or the MUD player plays a Sphere and then it's absoltely dead.
Chalice - becomes garbage since the opponent will play the Moxen he has on Turn 1 and is then able to operate normally.

With Leyline it bascially feels like I reduced the luckfactor to a minimum. In Hanau I lost 2 mirrormatches just because the first mirror had maindeck Leyline and the 2nd mirror it was really just the diceroll. It was retarded. But this is drifting off towards personal preference (which is indeed irrational actually )

[Neonico]

In fact, if your meta is infested by wasteland (as it is everywhere actually, mainly due to MUD rise and the heavy fish presence) the best option remains Petrified Feild.... It's slower by a turn and you have to have it in hand, but it acts as both Darkmor Salvage (getting back bloodghats for 2 turns, which should be anough), Fatesticher (grabbing back a 2nd bazaar) and a colored land if needed. And as a bonus, it's nuts in the wasteland matchups.

So i would say to Soboloev to NOT exclude Petrified feild from his build, especially for more colored lands. Just try to play the slowderge games, and you'll see how golden it can be, in many matchups and in game 2/3.

I actually play 2 feilds MD, 1 sideboard, and they have been golden. I really don't need the cute aspect of darkmor salvage, considering that dredging back Darkmor salvage has allmost never been really needed (games i would have lost without it) as it is a turn 3+ tool (and games should be over at this point preside, and you hsould need to get your bazaar back or coloredmana post board).

[Adan]

In fact, if your meta is infested by wasteland (as it is everywhere actually, mainly due to MUD rise and the heavy fish presence) the best option remains Petrified Feild.... It's slower by a turn and you have to have it in hand, but it acts as both Darkmor Salvage (getting back bloodghats for 2 turns, which should be anough), Fatesticher (grabbing back a 2nd bazaar) and a colored land if needed. And as a bonus, it's nuts in the wasteland matchups.

To play Petrified Field means not to play Fatestitchers (seriously, I am the kind of guy who would sit in the tournament and start to complain what kind of design fail it would be. Not to mention that you would give up the 2nd Turn kill).

So i would say to Soboloev to NOT exclude Petrified feild from his build, especially for more colored lands. Just try to play the slowderge games, and you'll see how golden it can be, in many matchups and in game 2/3.

Yes, but a increased colored Landcount can also help you in the postboard games as it will be easier for you to hardcast some cratures. Not to mention that they are essential to cast your SB material.

I actually play 2 feilds MD, 1 sideboard, and they have been golden. I really don't need the cute aspect of darkmor salvage, considering that dredging back Darkmor salvage has allmost never been really needed (games i would have lost without it) as it is a turn 3+ tool (and games should be over at this point preside, and you hsould need to get your bazaar back or coloredmana post board).

However, the approach to cut Fatestitcher and play Fields and Chalice may be the better one. I don't know, I guess I have to keep an eye out and analyze the current metagame trends in-depht.

[marcb]

Adan,

 Why do claim that playing petrified field excludes the possibility of playing fatestitcher? Do you think that your chances of having blue mana available decreases so significantly if you drop the colored sources from 12 to 10 to include petrified fields that your chances of unearthing drop considerably? In testing, I find it very easy to pay for the unearth cost with just 4 city and 4 undiscovered paradise.

[voltron00x]

Chalice - becomes garbage since the opponent will play the Moxen he has on Turn 1 and is then able to operate normally.

Actually Chalice on 0 is fine on the draw against a lot of the format.  Obviously you want it on the play, but regardless, it still locks your opponent out of abusing Will, which is the main way you can lose G1 in my experience.

[Neonico]

Adan,

 Why do claim that playing petrified field excludes the possibility of playing fatestitcher? Do you think that your chances of having blue mana available decreases so significantly if you drop the colored sources from 12 to 10 to include petrified fields that your chances of unearthing drop considerably? In testing, I find it very easy to pay for the unearth cost with just 4 bazaar and 4 undiscovered paradise.

Turn 1 bazar, turn 2 feild getting back gemstone/City/Paradise, turn 3 fatesticher.... Where is the problem there ?
And sorry, but darkmor salvage doesn't help toi get back fatesticher either... And you don't exclude it from your build either.... I just cutt darkmor salvages for petrified feilds, and none of them made me cutt fatesticher.

By itself, Petrified feild also act as a Fatesticher on turn 3.... You get your bazaar back, and it's One more use of it, so it's like a fatesticher, only delayed by a turn. The only difference is : if you get wasted, your fatestichers are useless anyway, where Petrified feilds will give you extra bazaar activations.

[Tempus]

Dakmor Salvage doesn't replace eiter Fatestitcher nor can't it be replaced by Petrified Field. Dakmor Salvage can trigger Bloodghast if you didn't drew a second land to your bazaar. I'd never cut Dakmor Salvage when playing with Bloodghast

[marcb]

I completely agree with Neonico on this one. Petrified field doesn't prevent using fatestitcher and when you have no bazaar it functions like a slower fatestitcher that enables the real fatestitchers in your graveyard by bringing back bazaar. I was just curious why Adan thinks they are mutually exclusive. Is 4 city and 4 undiscovered enough, or do people replace something other than gemstones for petrified fields? Personally, I replaced gemstones, and it hasn't been a problem.

[Neonico]

Dakmor Salvage doesn't replace eiter Fatestitcher nor can't it be replaced by Petrified Field. Dakmor Salvage can trigger Bloodghast if you didn't drew a second land to your bazaar. I'd never cut Dakmor Salvage when playing with Bloodghast

I compmletly disagree there. It's just cute and have never been usefull for me..... Exactly the opposite of petrified feild, which is really good in a wasteland infested metagame. And petrified feild also trigger bloodghast for 2 turns, can even get back an Undiscovered paradise if you need to play the long game, and so on. I dont even get the comparaison there

[Sobolev]

I completely agree with Neonico on this one. Petrified field doesn't prevent using fatestitcher and when you have no bazaar it functions like a slower fatestitcher that enables the real fatestitchers in your graveyard by bringing back bazaar. I was just curious why Adan thinks they are mutually exclusive. Is 4 city and 4 undiscovered enough, or do people replace something other than gemstones for petrified fields? Personally, I replaced gemstones, and it hasn't been a problem.

The mutual exclusivity of Petrified Field and Fatesticher, comes from the fact that there are two decks that have different functions with the same name.  Most Fatesticher builds are concerned with comboing/making zombies as quickly as possible whereas builds that involve Petrified Field often involve more consistent elements at the cost of sacrificed speed.  Also, it's worth noting that despite the fact that Petrified Field technically triggers Bloodghast twice, the earlier you play it the less relevant the first trigger is (little to no Bloodghasts in discard yet, you only hit a Bloodghast every 15 cards or so and even if you dredge two trolls on turn 2 that's 18 cards, 12 + 6 from bazaar) and the later you play it the less important Petrified Fields actual ability is.  Further, Petrified Field does little to nothing while actually in play.  It doesn't make blue for Fatesticher, it pays only to cast spells through Spheres.  While Spheres aren't exactly uncommon,  Gemstone Mine does this as well.  Granted it has an expiration date, but this is less relevant than it first appears.

To further expand on this idea however, I see how Petrified Field could be useful in a Wasteland heavy meta and in such a Meta, perhaps the more resilient slower version is the correct metagame call, the most recent deckcheck dredge decks are this slower variety I believe.  This I think is still more of a choice of deck than card choice.  You are not choosing to include Petrified Field in your Dredge deck.  You are picking the Dredge deck with Petrified Field rather than the Dredge deck without, because you feel it is a stronger metagame choice.  I don't know how to explain this point well, but I hope someone understands what I am trying to say.  The main point however is that I don't feel Petrified Field is a stronger card than Gemstone Mine in a vacuum, in the theory of Dredge, I think however that it pushes you in a somewhat different direction, which basically gives you a different deck that has 70 cards in common.  This is misleading however.  That being said, I haven't run in to that many wastelands, so I'm not using them. 

And to defend Dakmor Salvage, it's no crazy bomb, but it has won me more than one game that required me to go to turn three.  If you dredge a Petrified Field, it's useless, if you dredge a Salvage and need a landfall, you can get it on turn 3, reanimate a couple bloodghasts (at this point you've seen 30+ cards) and combo a turn late, but still in good time.  Again, it's not like it's the nuts, but it gives me the landfall I sometimes need, and defends it's 1 of slot pretty well.  I don't think I would play more, but I don't think it should be cut either.

[Neonico]

Well, i can't agree with  the "Feild doesn't make blue" argument. And no, sorry, you don't need gemstone in this slot to get your fatestichers back either.
If you need colored mana, you feild for a city (aka Feild gives you blue and help you paying for Fatesticher play) .
If you need Blue and to get bloodghasts back in play  more than twice, you get back paradise (aka feild is as effective as Darkmore Salvage play)
If you need to reactivate or get back a bazaar, you get back a bazaar (aka feild does the same as a fatesticher play).

What i want to show is that feild can make what Darkmor salvage does, can make what Blue mana for fatesticher does, and so on. It's a really versatile card, making it far more interesting than many other aviable options IMO.

So no, no; no, it's not a different strategy, nor a different deck... It's where to putt the cursor between your 1st game speed and win rate, and how you'll poerate against the hate G2 and 3. And to be honest, G1, wasteland+Sphere is actually the ONLY thing this deck really fears so having an option against it can't be bad.

In my Fatestocher build, my manabase is 4 City of Brass, 4 undiscovered Paradise and 2 Petrified Feild, with Gemstone mine and 1 petrified feild sideboard, and it's really enough to cast any colored spell, activating my fatestichers and protecting my bazaar.

[Sobolev]

Well, i can't agree with  the "Feild doesn't make blue" argument. And no, sorry, you don't need gemstone in this slot to get your fatestichers back either.
If you need colored mana, you feild for a city (aka Feild gives you blue and help you paying for Fatesticher play) .
If you need Blue and to get bloodghasts back in play  more than twice, you get back paradise (aka feild is as effective as Darkmore Salvage play)
If you need to reactivate or get back a bazaar, you get back a bazaar (aka feild does the same as a fatesticher play).

What I tried to show in my other post is that.

A)  Field does not make blue the turn you play it.  If you play Field turn 2, it does not make blue until turn 3.  A turn in which had you played a blue source you would have won on or before. 
B)  See above, though getting Paradise isn't terrible with Field, but it doesn't get you blue that turn.
C)  You can get back Bazaar, and this is I think it's best use in a Wasteland heavy Meta.  I support Petrified Field being added if you are surrounded by Wastelands.

Also,
A) This play is not as good as just playing a blue source instead, using Sticher a turn earlier, and possibly comboing then.  It is not as effective as the Gemstone, Fatesticher play.

B) In order to use Petrified Field in this way, you need to have it in your hand.  After my opening hand, and possibly the draw from my first turn if I go second,  I tend not to actually draw cards.  Instead I dredge.  My point with Salvage in this scenario is, if you dredge 3 Petrified Fields, they don't do anything, and if it's not in your opening hand, or maybe your first bazaar activation, it's not going to make it in to your hand.  Salvage however can make it in to your hand off a draw step dredge, in the games that go long.

C)  Getting back Bazaar with Petrified Field and playing a second copy is not as effective as unearthing Fatesticher and untapping your first copy.  Firstly, you don't play the Bazaar that turn.  Secondly Sticher is a creature for sacing purposes.

I'm not saying don't play Petrified Field.  I'm saying play it as an answer to Wasteland.  If  you don't fight wastelands it's inferior in all of the circumstances mentioned to just an extra blue source for stichers.  Also, as I said before, versions that adapt to the meta and slow down, often act differently.

[Adan]

Why do claim that playing petrified field excludes the possibility of playing fatestitcher? Do you think that your chances of having blue mana available decreases so significantly if you drop the colored sources from 12 to 10 to include petrified fields that your chances of unearthing drop considerably? In testing, I find it very easy to pay for the unearth cost with just 4 city and 4 undiscovered paradise.

Petrified Field is in any case 1 Turn slower than a 5color Land. I also play 10 5color Lands maindeck plus the Salvage. Having 10 5color Sources maindeck give you better odds of having one on Turn 2 more frequently (as you can still dig into one with a Bazaar activation).
And unearthing a Stitcher on Turn 2 is what I want since this build can win on Turn 2 through it very very consequently. If I'd want to win on Turn 3, I'd play this old list:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=26101 (there are 4 City of Brass missing in the Maindeck)

But since Bloodghast accelerates this deck by 1 whole Turn, I'll be greedy and go for that. This also helps in the fastcombo matchups a lot.

Dakmor Salvage has got a other purpose, it allows you to do a mini-combo with Cephalid Sage even on 0 handcards by dredging 3 Dredgers (1 of them being the Slavage), discard the other 2 and make the landdrop for more Bloodghast action.
Postboard it gives you another guarantee to recurr Bloodghasts in the mid- or lategame.

[Neonico]

Well, i read that you tested for BoM...
In BoM, I Highly recommend to have something against wasteland... At least sideboard.

Killing a turn later won't hurt you that much game1, loosing to wasteland alot more.

[Sobolev]

I don't know if this is the place,  but here goes.

I'm interested in doing a Smmenen type experiment, and attempting to build several Dredge decks tuned to each deck I anticipate playing and then merging them together.

My expected decks to face would be something like:
MUD
Fish
Oath
Some Tezz
Some Dredge
Some small number of TPS/Tendrils Combo type things

If anyone has any suggestions on how a Dredge deck tuned to beat these decks should go (consider what hate is likely in that deck such as Tormod's Crypt and Relic in MUD but Leyline and Jailer or whatever in Tendrils) please post a decklist.

I agree with Neonico that MUD and Fish versions should probably be sitting on some Petrified Fields.  I'm curious what sort of builds people think are optimal for these matchups.

As an example this is what I mean:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/18347_So_Many_Insane_Plays_A_Better_Look_At_Tezzeret.html

[Midknight]

I havn't had much time to playing vintage, but why did Careful Studies disapair from this deck. Since the deck plays Bloodghast, this card feeds on mana drops, so wouldn't playing Careful Study, be almost an auto inclusion to this deck. I notice before sb, even if you only bazaar just once, because it gets strip. This usually still allows your to win, it just slows you down a turn or two. Most of the decks that run wasted lands are Fish and Artifact decks. Those are usually slow decks. If you run enough mana in the deck, playing four Careful Studies is almost like running 8 Bazaars.

Untap Bazaar even with Wastedland threats, still allows you to activate atlease once, as long as theres no Stife effects or Pithing Needles on board. Careful Study does have alot more threats, with all the Counterspells. It just seems to good not to play, it helps you dig through your deck, if you need to find an anwser, or helps you win faster.

Am I missing somthing here on why its not played anymore. I would like to know why, so if anyone knows, please tell me.

[Adan]

I havn't had much time to playing vintage, but why did Careful Studies disapair from this deck. Since the deck plays Bloodghast, this card feeds on mana drops, so wouldn't playing Careful Study, be almost an auto inclusion to this deck. I notice before sb, even if you only bazaar just once, because it gets strip. This usually still allows your to win, it just slows you down a turn or two. Most of the decks that run wasted lands are Fish and Artifact decks. Those are usually slow decks. If you run enough mana in the deck, playing four Careful Studies is almost like running 8 Bazaars.

Untap Bazaar even with Wastedland threats, still allows you to activate atlease once, as long as theres no Stife effects or Pithing Needles on board. Careful Study does have alot more threats, with all the Counterspells. It just seems to good not to play, it helps you dig through your deck, if you need to find an anwser, or helps you win faster.

Am I missing somthing here on why its not played anymore. I would like to know why, so if anyone knows, please tell me.

There is already a version that plays Careful Study, it's more of a pure Manadredge version. It also plays 4 Breakthrough in addition to that AND Cephalid Coliseum.

In theory this build is the most resilient one in view of Wastelands, but the decks that run Wasteland usually have other cards that will then annoy the crap out of you:

Noble Fish: Forces, Dazes, Spell Pierces, Stifles for Coliseum, Meddling Mages maybe

MUD: Spheres, Spheres, Spheres, Chalices, more Spheres, maybe recurring Waste through Crucible

These cards pretty much reduce the usefullness of the spells drastically. Although you can support mindeck FoWs in that blue shell.
But Powder Dredge on the other hand give the opponent a lot of dead cards which is also the reason why it's the more frequently played version.

But I once have seen a list that exchanged Serum Powders for Careful Studies (I think it was James King who did that) and it seemed to work out well.
But in view of the stochastics it's a sin to do that.

[Valorale]

Careful Study I noticed started to fall out of favor as soon as people started cutting Cephalic Coliseum from the deck in order to run more 5c mana to support Nature's Claim. Study was always kind of a Legacy port over that got you started early game whereas Breakthrough won you the game after you have a few dredgers in the yard. People are now relying more on powder and or fate stitcher to maximize their ability and chances to get bazaar to provide the necessary dredge fuel in the yard.

[Neonico]

As noticed previously in the thread, the bloodghast versions need :
 - to run more lands to make bloodghasts effective, playing at least 8 blue lands
 - to run less hate, as the fatesticher kill is the fastest kill in vintage actually.

This means that you can easily cutt both Chalice, unmask and dryad arbor from the old manaless versions, to add City of Brass, Undiscovered Paradise and Careful Study.

By essence, the actual versions playing bloodghasts aren't manaless anymore, so i agree that there is no reason for carefull study to fall out of favor.
French Ichorid players actually maindeck a Carefull Study/Breakthrough mix (usually 2/2, breakthrough being boarded out every games, less often 4 studies/0 breakthrough, my personal choice) and it's really good both game 1 (giving you more chances to kill on turn 2) and both game 2 (the cantrip effect of study is really nice game 2 to find your sideboard cards). So Fatestichers/Serum Powder and Studies/Breakthrough aren't mutually exclusive in our experience.

[Sobolev]

As noticed previously in the thread, the bloodghast versions need :
 - to run more lands to make bloodghasts effective, playing at least 8 blue lands
 - to run less hate, as the fatesticher kill is the fastest kill in vintage actually.

This means that you can easily cutt both Chalice, unmask and dryad arbor from the old manaless versions, to add City of Brass, Undiscovered Paradise and Careful Study.

By essence, the actual versions playing bloodghasts aren't manaless anymore, so i agree that there is no reason for carefull study to fall out of favor.
French Ichorid players actually maindeck a Carefull Study/Breakthrough mix (usually 2/2, breakthrough being boarded out every games, less often 4 studies/0 breakthrough, my personal choice) and it's really good both game 1 (giving you more chances to kill on turn 2) and both game 2 (the cantrip effect of study is really nice game 2 to find your sideboard cards). So Fatestichers/Serum Powder and Studies/Breakthrough aren't mutually exclusive in our experience.

So you run 4 Studies, 8 colored lands (City, Paradise) and Fields in some number?  Do you have enough blue mana?  I'm considering what you suggest to see if it improves Fish and Workshop games.  I'm just concerned about blue sources.

Also, do you keep hands with a study and no bazaar?  It seems like no, so then you're studying on turn 2 instead of fatesticher (which is better if they waste your land) but not as strong as breakthrough would be in the same situation (assuming you ditched a dredger before your bazaar got owned).

I'm genuinely curious in your build if you're willing to share it in it's entire form, or even just some more explanation.

Edit:
Additionally, I see how this shores up Fish maybe as while they can counter it, it's not like a KO if they do.  But I think Fish isn't really a problem anyway generally speaking, as they have no way to just randomly kill you or lock out of the game.

It doesn't seem as strong against 13 sphere, when casting spells is not something you can do as much as you would like.

[Adan]

As noticed previously in the thread, the bloodghast versions need :
 - to run more lands to make bloodghasts effective, playing at least 8 blue lands

Ehm... Yes, more Lands to support Bloodghast and Blue sources to support Fatestitcher. Only the combination of Fatestitcher, Bloodghasts and Lands will give the deck the greedy 2nd Turn Kill (2nd Turn AVERAGE).

- to run less hate, as the fatesticher kill is the fastest kill in vintage actually.

Meh, Belcher and Ad Nauseam Tendrils are faster I guess, but for being a unpowered Deck, it's pretty impressive to kill on Turn 2, especially because you can keep up a racewar with these 2 or other fastcombo such as Grim Long (on a sidenote, Grimlong is vulnerable to leyline as it cuts him off everythign related to YawgWill and Cabal Rituals will suck).

This means that you can easily cutt both Chalice, unmask and dryad arbor from the old manaless versions, to add City of Brass, Undiscovered Paradise and Careful Study.
By essence, the actual versions playing bloodghasts aren't manaless anymore, so i agree that there is no reason for carefull study to fall out of favor.
French Ichorid players actually maindeck a Carefull Study/Breakthrough mix (usually 2/2, breakthrough being boarded out every games, less often 4 studies/0 breakthrough, my personal choice) and it's really good both game 1 (giving you more chances to kill on turn 2) and both game 2 (the cantrip effect of study is really nice game 2 to find your sideboard cards). So Fatestichers/Serum Powder and Studies/Breakthrough aren't mutually exclusive in our experience.

[rant]Ah, that's why there are no Dredgedecks making any Top8 in France... [/rant]

Just kidding, but in my view, I just see no profit in running a Bloodghast Dredge build without Fatestitchers. With Stitchers, you can go off on Turn 2 and the opponent won't be able to do anything against it (because everything that happens before multiple Therapies and Dread Return are just actiaved and triggered abilities).

If you cut Fatestitcher, this deck will be slowed down by 1 turn on average. And if I'd play a Dredgedeck that kills on Turn 3 average, I'd rather run this:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Serum Powder
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Darkblast
2 Dread Return
3 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Unmask
4 Narcomoeba
1 Angel of Despair
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 City of Brass
3 Petrified Field
1 Strip Mine

There you have your Fields and the average 3rd Turn kill as well as a bunch of disruption.

[Sobolev]

As noticed previously in the thread, the bloodghast versions need :
 - to run more lands to make bloodghasts effective, playing at least 8 blue lands

Ehm... Yes, more Lands to support Bloodghast and Blue sources to support Fatestitcher. Only the combination of Fatestitcher, Bloodghasts and Lands will give the deck the greedy 2nd Turn Kill (2nd Turn AVERAGE).

- to run less hate, as the fatesticher kill is the fastest kill in vintage actually.

Meh, Belcher and Ad Nauseam Tendrils are faster I guess, but for being a unpowered Deck, it's pretty impressive to kill on Turn 2, especially because you can keep up a racewar with these 2 or other fastcombo such as Grim Long (on a sidenote, Grimlong is vulnerable to leyline as it cuts him off everythign related to YawgWill and Cabal Rituals will suck).

This means that you can easily cutt both Chalice, unmask and dryad arbor from the old manaless versions, to add City of Brass, Undiscovered Paradise and Careful Study.
By essence, the actual versions playing bloodghasts aren't manaless anymore, so i agree that there is no reason for carefull study to fall out of favor.
French Ichorid players actually maindeck a Carefull Study/Breakthrough mix (usually 2/2, breakthrough being boarded out every games, less often 4 studies/0 breakthrough, my personal choice) and it's really good both game 1 (giving you more chances to kill on turn 2) and both game 2 (the cantrip effect of study is really nice game 2 to find your sideboard cards). So Fatestichers/Serum Powder and Studies/Breakthrough aren't mutually exclusive in our experience.

[rant]Ah, that's why there are no Dredgedecks making any Top8 in France... [/rant]

Just kidding, but in my view, I just see no profit in running a Bloodghast Dredge build without Fatestitchers. With Stitchers, you can go off on Turn 2 and the opponent won't be able to do anything against it (because everything that happens before multiple Therapies and Dread Return are just actiaved and triggered abilities).

If you cut Fatestitcher, this deck will be slowed down by 1 turn on average. And if I'd play a Dredgedeck that kills on Turn 3 average, I'd rather run this:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Serum Powder
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Darkblast
2 Dread Return
3 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Unmask
4 Narcomoeba
1 Angel of Despair
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 City of Brass
3 Petrified Field
1 Strip Mine

There you have your Fields and the average 3rd Turn kill as well as a bunch of disruption.

He is saying he runs Fatesticher, Field, Careful Study and Serum Powder.  I'm curious what else.

[Neonico]

@Adan :
There are actually 2 players that regulary top8 (when i say regulary, i mean each time they play it) with dredge in French tournmanets. I'm also quite competitive with the deck, but didn't play it lately because i needed to test some other decks to prepare BoM...

Speacking of the french list :
The main core of a Fatesticher/Bloodghast build is really simple and it's 54 cards that i think won't change from a version to another :
4   Serum Powder
4   Bridge from Below
4   Cabal Therapy
1   Darkblast
3   Dread Return
2   Golgari Thug
2   Ichorid
4   Bloodghast
4   Stinkweed Imp
3   Fatesticher
4   Narcomoeba
1   Angel of Despair/Woodfall Primus
1-2   Flame-Kin Zealot
0-1   Sphynx of the Los Thruth
4   Golgari Grave-Troll
4   Bazaar of Baghdad
4   City of Brass
4   Undiscovered Paradise


From there, you have 6 slots to play with, generally 2 more lands (Gemstone mine, Darkmor salvage or Petrified feild, depending on the metagame) and 4 slots that can be dedicated to hate (i can understand the inclusion of maindeck Leyline for example, but i disagree on both unmask and chalice, really unneeded with this version of the deck) but we chose Careful study/breakthrough over this because it's unneeded for us.

As you can see, there are absolutly no concessions for our maindeck comparing it to the standart Fatesticher build (only loosing 4 possible sideboard slots), as we including the studies/breakthrough over hate cards, not engine cards.

As for the 2 questions about this inclusion :
It plays like a standart build. You HAVE to have bazaar in your first hand. Do not keep a study only hand, except if you have some scouting informations and you know you are against a no-counterspell/non-combo deck.
I have never had any problem to cast Studies in all the games i did. And when you have it in hand and no mana source, it's just like any other non-dredgers cards in your hand : a card that you can discard without a problem.

There are actually 2 cards that i seriously consider including in my maindeck : Strip mine and Lion's Eye Diamond (as a 5th discard outlet, which is not that bad with studies/breaktrough)

[Qasur]

It's really interesting reading through the pages of this Thread. Lots of great information, but at the same time, some of it seems odd.

4 Serum Powder is a must.

Playing 8 rainbow lands is a must.

Playing Shaarum + Alters seems amazingly good and is the best build.

Loss of Ichorid hurts running the Shaarum builds.

Why 4 City Of Brass instead of 4 Gemstone Mines? If you can activate a Gemstone Mine 3 times, you're probably already losing. Why lose the life with CoB?

To explain some of those points:
I think Probasco hit the nail on the head with Serum Powder + Bazaar, so that's almost abvious. Also, the Shaarum + Alter plan just is amazingly consistent and speeds the deck up a lot (with the inclusion of the Bloodghast). Ichorid is a good card because it comes into play for free and attacks for 3 damage (each). That's important if you're "slow" or have been Crypt'd/Rat'd because you can just fill enough cards to ensure returning it to play to win the game. However, having the Shaarum cards makes it so you can't fit Ichorid into the deck. Maybe make room for 2, but it'll hurt no matter what.

Also, Petrified Field seems somewhat "win more" against Wasteland. Besides wasteland, you have to face Needles on Bazaar and Chalice @ 1. And Petrified doesn't help against those. In fact, those are your worst nightmare. Too bad Unmask can't hit wasteland.

[Neonico]

Petrified feild helps you against wasteland alone on game 1. In game 1, you allmost never need to resolve a 1cc spell anyway, having the bridges trigger is the only thing you really need.

On game 2-3, yes wasteland + Chalice for 1/Needles are a problem, but you have ancient grudges/Nature's claim/Ingot Chewer to help you against them. Loosing your bazaar when you also need a solution is what hurts you the most.

I really can't consider a solution to wasteland a "win-more" card, consiodering it's the only thing the deck fears in game 1, and a really hard card to play against g2-3 if the opposite deck as a good clock and good other dredge hosers. The bazaar ability to dig for anti-hate cards is really importnat in g2-3.

About Sharrum/Flamekin kill choice : Sharrum is a little more explosives, yes, but cost you 3 maindeck slots, which can be used to play more hate to compensate the lower speed, or spells that can speed up your kill (Such as breaktrough). Overall, i think that it's not that needed, whatever the build is.

[Adan]

To explain some of those points:
I think Probasco hit the nail on the head with Serum Powder + Bazaar, so that's almost obvious.

He did. You will be dependant on Bazaar in any case, whether you are running Powder or not. This has also got a mathematical background (hypergeometric distribution etc.) but I have not figured out how to calculate it on paper, it's been a while since I had that at school...

Also, the Shaarum + Alter plan just is amazingly consistent and speeds the deck up a lot (with the inclusion of the Bloodghast). Ichorid is a good card because it comes into play for free and attacks for 3 damage (each). That's important if you're "slow" or have been Crypt'd/Rat'd because you can just fill enough cards to ensure returning it to play to win the game. However, having the Shaarum cards makes it so you can't fit Ichorid into the deck. Maybe make room for 2, but it'll hurt no matter what.

The Sharuum build maintains it's speed because it runs at least 10 lands to fuel Fatestitcher plus Lotus+LED. You can play just 11 Dredgers and just 3 Fatestitchers to make room for 2 Ichorids. I have done that and it works out very well, the only point is that you have no slots for hate (especially Leyline) which makes Sharuum Dredge quite weak against the mirrormatch.

Also, Petrified Field seems somewhat "win more" against Wasteland. Besides wasteland, you have to face Needles on Bazaar and Chalice @ 1. And Petrified doesn't help against those. In fact, those are your worst nightmare. Too bad Unmask can't hit wasteland.

This is why I prefer to run maindeck Leylines. Wastelands are one of the few things that can cost you your g1. If I have Leyline out g1 and be able to Bazaar at least once, I am basically not worrying about the game anymore as the opponent won't be able to dispose my Bridges and I can spawn more and more tokens which get me my game.

[Neonico]

In fact, the main problem with wasteland is more Wasteland + Stifle.... Noble fish can negate ALL of your dredge plan with those cards.
What does leyline do for you ? 40% chances to win G1 against Ichorid ? Randomly good against MUD ? ANd that's all.... Not really worth it IMHO, unless you need some more sideboard space.

[Mith]

I've had my butt saved by Petrified Fileds on more ocassions than I can remember. The deck can easily support it, and its a card I haven't yet considered cutting. Six multi-colored lands game 1 is plenty, and an additional two in the board once you bring in more Chains/Claims is more than enough.

I've moved my Leylines to the board...I'm just not seeing that much Dredge around to warrant the space maindeck. I may end up cutting them all together for two more Darkblast and two Ravenous Trap (Jailer is rampant with Oath being such a popular deck). Chalice, as many before me have stated, is solid game 1. I'm still using Fatestitcher, as I love the speed game 1...but they're starting to feel like a "win-more" card, and might end up being cut. If that happens, Leyline will probably move maindeck.

In regards to Return targets, Flame-kin is a keeper for now. Depending on what I think I'll be facing, the second slot goes to Iona or Terastadon. Below is my list for ref...I'm not sure what I'd put in main-deck for the Fatestitchers if I cut them...maybe the Leylines if I start seeing more Dredge.

4x Bazaar of Baghdad
4x Undiscovered Paradise
2x City of Brass
2x Petrified Field
1x Dakmoor Salvage

4x Serum Powder
4x Chalice of the Void

4x Bridge from Below
4x Cabal Therapy

4x Golgari-Grave Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Bloodghast
2x Golgari Thug
2x Ichorid
1x Darkblast
4x Narcomoeba
4x Fatestitcher-> might get cut for maindeck Leyline
 
2x Nature's Claim
2x Dread Return
1x Terastodon/Iona
1x Flame-kin Zealot

Sideboard:
4x Chain of Vapor
3x Unmask
2x Nature's Claim
2x City of Brass
4x Leyline of the Void ->may become 2x Darkblast and 2x Ravenous Trap if Leylines go maindeck in place of Fatestitcher

[Sobolev]

For comparison:

// Lands
    4  Bazaar of Baghdad
    4  City of Brass
    2  Gemstone Mine
    4  Undiscovered Paradise

// Creatures
    4  Bloodghast
    3  Fatestitcher
    1  Flame-Kin Zealot
    4  Golgari Grave-Troll
    2  Golgari Thug
    4  Narcomoeba
    3  Sharuum the Hegemon
    4  Stinkweed Imp
    2  Ichorid

// Spells
    2  Altar of Dementia
    1  Black Lotus
    4  Bridge from Below
    4  Cabal Therapy
    3  Dread Return
    1  Lion's Eye Diamond
    4  Serum Powder

// Sideboard
SB: 4  Chain of Vapor
SB: 4  Nature's Claim
SB: 3  Unmask
SB: 1  Ichorid
SB: 1  Serenity
SB: 2  Pithing Needle


I wouldn't mind one more Golgari Thug, and I like the Field maindeck, 2 lands to replace them in the sideboard when playing people who you don't need them for.  I don't know what I would cut though.

[Ravager Sam]

Fatestitcher and Sharuum Dredge has a worse matchup against fish and other decks with wasteland than normal dredge.  I recently switched from my beloved Sharuum Dredge -> normal dredge and I won a mox all the same.  A change in times calls for a change in decks; sharuum dredge is done, for now at least.