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Author Topic: Bloodghasted Ichorid Primer- Looking to the future  (Read 88259 times)
msg67183
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« Reply #420 on: March 18, 2014, 11:04:41 am »

I have always disliked unmask out of the sideboard, for the simple fact that you will probably not be on the play in the majority of your sideboardrd games. I've also found most of the dread return package to be win-more in the maindeck. Your current list is going to have a very, very hard time beating Yixlid Jailer in particular, with 2 outs in your 75.

Agreed. I keep trying to tell Jacob that the Dread Return Package is unnecessary, that game 1 should be all about obtaining information from your opponent so that you know how to board. The game 1 win percentage is already exceptionally high, why win more?
I have a list together that plays pretty nicely. It plays main deck Chewers and Nature's Claims and has a board of the following:

4 Wispmare
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Flamekin Harbinger
3 Festercreep

This allows you to have uncounterable answers as well as tutorable answers.
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« Reply #421 on: March 18, 2014, 11:07:06 am »

I have always disliked unmask out of the sideboard, for the simple fact that you will probably not be on the play in the majority of your sideboardrd games. I've also found most of the dread return package to be win-more in the maindeck. Your current list is going to have a very, very hard time beating Yixlid Jailer in particular, with 2 outs in your 75.

Agreed. I keep trying to tell Jacob that the Dread Return Package is unnecessary, that game 1 should be all about obtaining information from your opponent so that you know how to board. The game 1 win percentage is already exceptionally high, why win more?
I have a list together that plays pretty nicely. It plays main deck Chewers and Nature's Claims and has a board of the following:

4 Wispmare
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Flamekin Harbinger
3 Festercreep

This allows you to have uncounterable answers as well as tutorable answers.

You probably want Nameless Inversion over Festercreep.
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msg67183
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« Reply #422 on: March 18, 2014, 11:08:09 am »

I have always disliked unmask out of the sideboard, for the simple fact that you will probably not be on the play in the majority of your sideboardrd games. I've also found most of the dread return package to be win-more in the maindeck. Your current list is going to have a very, very hard time beating Yixlid Jailer in particular, with 2 outs in your 75.

Agreed. I keep trying to tell Jacob that the Dread Return Package is unnecessary, that game 1 should be all about obtaining information from your opponent so that you know how to board. The game 1 win percentage is already exceptionally high, why win more?
I have a list together that plays pretty nicely. It plays main deck Chewers and Nature's Claims and has a board of the following:

4 Wispmare
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Flamekin Harbinger
3 Festercreep

This allows you to have uncounterable answers as well as tutorable answers.

You probably want Nameless Inversion over Festercreep.

Nameless Inversion can't be cast off Cavern of Souls, so therefore can be countered.
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msg67183
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« Reply #423 on: March 18, 2014, 11:15:20 am »

I forgot to mention the Maindeck also has 3 Darkblast.
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« Reply #424 on: March 18, 2014, 11:26:47 am »

I have always disliked unmask out of the sideboard, for the simple fact that you will probably not be on the play in the majority of your sideboardrd games. I've also found most of the dread return package to be win-more in the maindeck. Your current list is going to have a very, very hard time beating Yixlid Jailer in particular, with 2 outs in your 75.

Agreed. I keep trying to tell Jacob that the Dread Return Package is unnecessary, that game 1 should be all about obtaining information from your opponent so that you know how to board. The game 1 win percentage is already exceptionally high, why win more?
I have a list together that plays pretty nicely. It plays main deck Chewers and Nature's Claims and has a board of the following:

4 Wispmare
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Flamekin Harbinger
3 Festercreep

This allows you to have uncounterable answers as well as tutorable answers.

You probably want Nameless Inversion over Festercreep.

Nameless Inversion can't be cast off Cavern of Souls, so therefore can be countered.

It also costs 2 less.
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JPettie
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« Reply #425 on: March 18, 2014, 11:46:54 am »

I have always disliked unmask out of the sideboard, for the simple fact that you will probably not be on the play in the majority of your sideboardrd games. I've also found most of the dread return package to be win-more in the maindeck. Your current list is going to have a very, very hard time beating Yixlid Jailer in particular, with 2 outs in your 75.

I can definitely understand some of your arguments and they will be helpful. I am curious when you say "most of the dread return packages...", is there one you do not feel to be a "win-more" and otherwise have some utility? I will be most likely cutting Unmask from the side and adding some additional ways to deal with hate. I am considering cutting a thug main to put a darkblast back in, and maybe 1 in the side as well, or up the firestorm a little. I really want to kill someone fast in game 1, not give them a chance to really have turns to play the game, and that is why I go with the dread return package I have but it may be wrong, I am new to this.
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JPettie
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« Reply #426 on: March 18, 2014, 11:58:02 am »

I have always disliked unmask out of the sideboard, for the simple fact that you will probably not be on the play in the majority of your sideboardrd games. I've also found most of the dread return package to be win-more in the maindeck. Your current list is going to have a very, very hard time beating Yixlid Jailer in particular, with 2 outs in your 75.

Agreed. I keep trying to tell Jacob that the Dread Return Package is unnecessary, that game 1 should be all about obtaining information from your opponent so that you know how to board. The game 1 win percentage is already exceptionally high, why win more?
I have a list together that plays pretty nicely. It plays main deck Chewers and Nature's Claims and has a board of the following:

4 Wispmare
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Flamekin Harbinger
3 Festercreep

This allows you to have uncounterable answers as well as tutorable answers.

I am assuming you can Evoke off Cavern of Souls? I feel like you may have a hard time casting your other cards in the deck with 4 Caverns coming in, how many lands do you have mainboard? It seems your post game you just want to cast uncounterable tutors for Elementals and have a 1/1, with three options to search out to beat hate, this could work, but the mana may be awkward sometimes. Where are you getting your information that Nameless Inversion cannot be cast off Cavern, I am reading with some research that it indeed does count as all types in all fields it exists in. This means regardless of what type you named, you may use Caverns second ability to cast it, as well as tutor it up with Harbinger, which for 2 less, it seems to clearly be better than Festercreep. The only upside to Fester is he can sometimes attack, and that it does its damage to all creatures. I find that most creatures will not die to this, especially the Merfolk matchup, where you can't do anything with him meaningfully.
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msg67183
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« Reply #427 on: March 18, 2014, 12:52:44 pm »

I have always disliked unmask out of the sideboard, for the simple fact that you will probably not be on the play in the majority of your sideboardrd games. I've also found most of the dread return package to be win-more in the maindeck. Your current list is going to have a very, very hard time beating Yixlid Jailer in particular, with 2 outs in your 75.

Agreed. I keep trying to tell Jacob that the Dread Return Package is unnecessary, that game 1 should be all about obtaining information from your opponent so that you know how to board. The game 1 win percentage is already exceptionally high, why win more?
I have a list together that plays pretty nicely. It plays main deck Chewers and Nature's Claims and has a board of the following:

4 Wispmare
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Flamekin Harbinger
3 Festercreep

This allows you to have uncounterable answers as well as tutorable answers.

I am assuming you can Evoke off Cavern of Souls? I feel like you may have a hard time casting your other cards in the deck with 4 Caverns coming in, how many lands do you have mainboard? It seems your post game you just want to cast uncounterable tutors for Elementals and have a 1/1, with three options to search out to beat hate, this could work, but the mana may be awkward sometimes. Where are you getting your information that Nameless Inversion cannot be cast off Cavern, I am reading with some research that it indeed does count as all types in all fields it exists in. This means regardless of what type you named, you may use Caverns second ability to cast it, as well as tutor it up with Harbinger, which for 2 less, it seems to clearly be better than Festercreep. The only upside to Fester is he can sometimes attack, and that it does its damage to all creatures. I find that most creatures will not die to this, especially the Merfolk matchup, where you can't do anything with him meaningfully.

Read Cavern of Souls carefully... It only allows creatures to be uncounterable. The manabase for the main deck is:

4 City of Brass
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Petrified Field
1 Dakmor Salvage

The mana base seems fine and you must remember, against non wasteland decks Pet Fields can come out if need be.
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« Reply #428 on: March 18, 2014, 02:32:07 pm »

Most often I see lists with Cavern forgoing or siding Petrified Fields.
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« Reply #429 on: March 18, 2014, 03:13:55 pm »

Read Cavern of Souls carefully... It only allows creatures to be uncounterable.

More technically, it's mana can only be spent on "creature spells".  Nameless Inversion is not a creature spell.   Tribal cards such as Nameless Inversion do not have the type "Creature" even if they do have the subtype of <CreatureType>.

By the same token, Remove Soul can't counter Nameless Inversion, if that makes it easier to understand.

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msg67183
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« Reply #430 on: March 18, 2014, 03:48:20 pm »

Read Cavern of Souls carefully... It only allows creatures to be uncounterable.

More technically, it's mana can only be spent on "creature spells".  Nameless Inversion is not a creature spell.   Tribal cards such as Nameless Inversion do not have the type "Creature" even if they do have the subtype of <CreatureType>.

By the same token, Remove Soul can't counter Nameless Inversion, if that makes it easier to understand.



Thank you. That's what I thought. For reference here is the deck I have built on Cockatrice:

Cavern Dredge

4 Serum Powder

4 Bloodghast
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Ingot Chewer
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp

4 Bridge from Below

3 Darkblast
4 Nature's Claim

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 City of Brass
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Petrified Field
4 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Cabal Therapy

Sideboard:

3 Festercreep
4 Flamekin Harbinger
4 Wispmare

4 Cavern of Souls
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« Reply #431 on: March 18, 2014, 04:05:42 pm »

No Grave Troll?
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msg67183
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« Reply #432 on: March 18, 2014, 04:38:56 pm »

No Grave Troll?

Whenever I don't play Dread Return I don't play Grave Troll. It doesn't exile to Ichorid and doesn't help post board. It's just a bulky card that dredges.
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« Reply #433 on: March 19, 2014, 10:43:20 am »

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Bloodghast
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
3 City of Brass
3 Dread Return
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Mental Misstep
4 Narcomoeba
1 Fatestitcher(I'd cut this without mox sapphire, lotus, or LED its not really worth inclusion)
4 Nature's Claim
4 Golgari Thug (I'd cut these for Darkblasts)
2 Dakmor Salvage (Having 2 pretty much ensures you can always get a land drop when you need to get your bloodghasts back)
3 Ichorid  (These are important for beating workshops since its difficult to cast dread return against them.  Having 3 increases consistency)
4 Unmask (Moved From SB to Main)
3 Darkblast (This is the best answer to Jailor and when combined with Stinkweed makes your creature match up very good)
1 Griselbrand  (There is nothing like flipping your entire deck into your yard in one turn)
1 Riftstone portal  (This lets your bazaars tap for mana, helping you push dread return through spheres)

4 Serum Powder
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Sun Titan
4 Undiscovered Paradise

Sideboard:
1 City of Brass
2 Gemstone Mine
3 Ingot Chewer + 1 ingot chewer
4 Nature's Claim (Moved From Main to Side)
3 Serenity  (You don't always have 2 mana in your hand and as such its not always easy to use this)
2 Firestorm (You only really want these in extremely creature heavy metagames)
2 Chain of Vapor  (These are versatile removal spells and after you are capped on Claims and chewers a couple of them is usually a good choice)
4 Wispmare  (This is a good card in an oath heavy meta. I probably wouldn't play it outside of that though)

I tried to keep it as close to your original as possible with some improvements.  The green marks a suggested addition.  The purple marks a suggested subtraction.  The blue are other possible additions and subtractions.

For Sideboarding:
Take out dread return against against anything other than storm
Unmasks can typically come out on the draw
Darkblasts can come out against opponents where it can't kill any relevant creatures
Dakmor's can come out against opponents without mana denial
Therapies can come out against any deck that isn't playing tinker/oath/dark ritual or some other combo that's faster than your clock, against these decks you can also cut down on the number of powders as you typically don't want to mulligan aggressively games 2/3.
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Samoht
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« Reply #434 on: March 19, 2014, 11:05:24 am »

Wispmare is your best target for Leyline of the Void, as it dodges Chalice and Thorn, as well as Mental Misstep. Obviously more narrow, but I think you're dismissing it too quickly.
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« Reply #435 on: March 19, 2014, 11:37:33 am »

I agree with Tom. I have played a ton of dredge and that little pony has put in game winning work. Chain is also good for bouncing leyline and even jailer. Bouncing jailer and hiting it with therapy is a good time.
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« Reply #436 on: March 19, 2014, 12:49:52 pm »

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Bloodghast
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
3 City of Brass
3 Dread Return
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Mental Misstep
4 Narcomoeba
1 Fatestitcher(I'd cut this without mox sapphire, lotus, or LED its not really worth inclusion)
4 Nature's Claim
4 Golgari Thug (I'd cut these for Darkblasts)
2 Dakmor Salvage (Having 2 pretty much ensures you can always get a land drop when you need to get your bloodghasts back)
3 Ichorid  (These are important for beating workshops since its difficult to cast dread return against them.  Having 3 increases consistency)
4 Unmask (Moved From SB to Main)
3 Darkblast (This is the best answer to Jailor and when combined with Stinkweed makes your creature match up very good)
1 Griselbrand  (There is nothing like flipping your entire deck into your yard in one turn)
1 Riftstone portal  (This lets your bazaars tap for mana, helping you push dread return through spheres)

4 Serum Powder
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Sun Titan
4 Undiscovered Paradise

Sideboard:
1 City of Brass
2 Gemstone Mine
3 Ingot Chewer + 1 ingot chewer
4 Nature's Claim (Moved From Main to Side)
3 Serenity  (You don't always have 2 mana in your hand and as such its not always easy to use this)
2 Firestorm (You only really want these in extremely creature heavy metagames)
2 Chain of Vapor  (These are versatile removal spells and after you are capped on Claims and chewers a couple of them is usually a good choice)
4 Wispmare  (This is a good card in an oath heavy meta. I probably wouldn't play it outside of that though)

I tried to keep it as close to your original as possible with some improvements.  The green marks a suggested addition.  The purple marks a suggested subtraction.  The blue are other possible additions and subtractions.

For Sideboarding:
Take out dread return against against anything other than storm
Unmasks can typically come out on the draw
Darkblasts can come out against opponents where it can't kill any relevant creatures
Dakmor's can come out against opponents without mana denial
Therapies can come out against any deck that isn't playing tinker/oath/dark ritual or some other combo that's faster than your clock, against these decks you can also cut down on the number of powders as you typically don't want to mulligan aggressively games 2/3.

First off, before I get into my arguments for and against things, I want to thank you for putting the time in to really give me good advice and work with my list instead of suggesting a completely different path to take and write mine off.

I actually have been progressively making some changes to the list that I originally posted, and some are what you have suggested and others are different. I think it may be best for me to go card by card in my counter analysis and arguments. In terms of cards I may leave out, I have either already made the change, or agree with your suggestions.

Fatestitcher
I originally was running 2 and cut down to 1, I find it is an extremely useful silver bullet mainboard in getting people dead when maybe I'd only have a Sun Titan and have to pass the turn. The scenario consists of being able to dread return only a Titan, but not having a Bazaar in the yard to pull out with the Titan, in this scenario I am pretty cold to not being able to dredge again this turn without Fatestitcher. This scenario with Fatestitcher can then allow me to dredge to a winning board that turn instead of waiting a turn, by returning a land from Titan, and then unearthing the Fatestitcher to untap my Bazaar and so on... For this reason, I feel like I want the 1 of Fatestitcher to be in my list. It may not seem like the best card, but it can really help me out of some interesting situations where I need to be faster than my opponent. IE: Storm.

Nature's Claim
I can definitely see reason to cut them from the main and be all in on combo, but I am having an issue with how I am going to win Game 1 if my opponent puts a Leyline of the Void into play. By removing these from the main, I am conceding to Leyline completely in game 1, making the Dredge mirror where my opponent may have them, very one sided. Now this may just be something I should be willing to ignore because the lack of decks that run mainboard Leyline, and that is something I am willing to do if I feel like the meta supports that call, or even if I just understand that I could lose to Dredge sometimes.

Dakmor Salvage
I feel like 2 is definitely safe and will help me get Bloodghasts, but so far I haven't been having an issue with the 1, usually if I do not have it, I have a land to play in hand to get the Bloodghasts back. Most times we are just flipping our entire deck into the graveyard and it shouldn't be hard to find the things we need, dakmor/fatestitcher are for those corner cases in my opinion. For now I believe I will stick with 1, and if I find it to be an issue later, I will up the count.

Unmask
This is more of a follow-up item. I have the question of whether it is really worthy of a playset in the main. It seems to be pretty bad against shops unless I go first, but maybe I am undervaluing the card and I'd like to have the opinion of others as well on this one. If anyone could follow up on how they feel about Unmask, I would highly appreciate it.

Darkblast
I do not know if I agree about the amount of Darkblast you are suggesting. I understand how it could be a player in some creature matchups post board but it seems pretty dead against shops, merfolk, and oath off the top of my head. I am curious how much Jailer is really played, it seems like it is the minority when it comes to hate that is being played. If I am wrong in that regard, I can see needing a good amount of ways to deal with it mainboard and sideboard. I want to run something like 1-2 Darkblast max and I don't know if that is necessarily right or not. I am liking the usefulness of Firestorm, and I feel like it is my 3-4th Darkblast, along will dealing with magus of the moon and other creature based decks, seems a lot better against merfolk if uncountered.

Golgari Thug
If we cut him entirely, we are reducing the amount we can dredge into our graveyard consistently in game 1, along with less Ichorid fodder, but you upped the Ichorid count. I definitely want atleast 1-2 Thugs in my deck I feel like. I find him to be another silver bullet of corner cases where he excels, being able to put a creature on top of your deck can be very useful and in a match where maybe I couldn't kill them on a turn where I got a Sun Titan and my library is very low on cards, I can bring him back with the Titan and cabal him to put a card on top of my library to keep me from losing to recall or just milling myself out of the game.

Griselbrand
I believe the deck is already very capible of flipping itself into the graveyard already and this addition seems to be a win more addition that I don't believe is strictly needed, I believe Sun Titan and Flame-Kin already get the job done on their own. Although I could see Griselbrand being the target in the case where Fatestitcher was saving grace. This will be a either or between Griselbrand and Fatestitcher which I will have to decide on as I go.

For anyone interested this is the revised list I have come to, with help of course:

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Bloodghast
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 City of Brass
1 Dakmor Salvage
2 Darkblast
3 Dread Return
1 Fatestitcher or Griselbrand
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug
2 Ichorid
4 Mental Misstep
4 Narcomoeba
1 Riftstone Portal
4 Serum Powder
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Sun Titan
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Unmask

Sideboard:
2 Chain of Vapor
2 City of Brass
1 Firestorm
1 Gemstone Mine
4 Ingot Chewer
4 Nature's Claim
1 Wispmare

I am definitely up for more constructive criticism and if you really feel like I am not taking something to heart you are suggesting, please let me know.
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« Reply #437 on: March 20, 2014, 10:18:09 am »

Wispmare is your best target for Leyline of the Void, as it dodges Chalice and Thorn, as well as Mental Misstep. Obviously more narrow, but I think you're dismissing it too quickly.

I'm not saying its a bad card, just that its not an auto include as sideboard hate unless I'm going into an oath heavy meta.  There are too many decks its dead against, shops, merfolk, and UR landstill just to name a few.  Its in the class of anti hate that I'd typically look to after I have 4 nature's claim, 4 ingot chewers, and 2 chain of vapors.

Fatestitcher
I originally was running 2 and cut down to 1, I find it is an extremely useful silver bullet mainboard in getting people dead when maybe I'd only have a Sun Titan and have to pass the turn. The scenario consists of being able to dread return only a Titan, but not having a Bazaar in the yard to pull out with the Titan, in this scenario I am pretty cold to not being able to dredge again this turn without Fatestitcher. This scenario with Fatestitcher can then allow me to dredge to a winning board that turn instead of waiting a turn, by returning a land from Titan, and then unearthing the Fatestitcher to untap my Bazaar and so on... For this reason, I feel like I want the 1 of Fatestitcher to be in my list. It may not seem like the best card, but it can really help me out of some interesting situations where I need to be faster than my opponent. IE: Storm.

As I said my only real issue with fatestitcher in the list is the lack of artifact mana because without it fatestitcher becomes a turn 2 play at the earliest, the same turn that every other card in your deck starts working.  So I think without the artifact mana, you should be able to gain a lot more speed by adding something, like Griselbrand.  I too was skeptical of the legendary demon at first, but he lets you go off on turn 2 pretty much automatically.  After activating him once (assuming you've counted correctly to mill yourself completely or close to it) everyone of your narcomoebas that are still in your deck will be put into play, all of your bridges, your remaining dread returns, cabal therapies, and your flamekin zealot will be put the in yard.  This will almost always give you enough to swing for the win that turn.  Along side Sun Titan there isn't a better facilitator for the deck to dread return in.  For the reasons listed above, and since you are only running 1 Titan for the role of facilitator right now, I think adding Griselbrand could be a great benefit to your list.

Nature's Claim
I can definitely see reason to cut them from the main and be all in on combo, but I am having an issue with how I am going to win Game 1 if my opponent puts a Leyline of the Void into play. By removing these from the main, I am conceding to Leyline completely in game 1, making the Dredge mirror where my opponent may have them, very one sided. Now this may just be something I should be willing to ignore because the lack of decks that run mainboard Leyline, and that is something I am willing to do if I feel like the meta supports that call, or even if I just understand that I could lose to Dredge sometimes.

You have to remember that in the dredge mirror your opponent is also mulling to bazaar, not dredge hate like some other opponents might be.  As such they have less than a 40% of having their leyline, which becomes an even a lower chance if they aren't maxed on them.  I haven't played main deck leylines or any main deck answers to leyline for the past couple years in dredge and during that time I'm still something like 10-1 in the mirror.  The mirror match for dredge is a lot more about experience than what your deck is packing.

Dakmor Salvage
I feel like 2 is definitely safe and will help me get Bloodghasts, but so far I haven't been having an issue with the 1, usually if I do not have it, I have a land to play in hand to get the Bloodghasts back. Most times we are just flipping our entire deck into the graveyard and it shouldn't be hard to find the things we need, dakmor/fatestitcher are for those corner cases in my opinion. For now I believe I will stick with 1, and if I find it to be an issue later, I will up the count.

I suppose this depends on play style with the deck more than anything.  I like to powder very aggressively and as such if something is only a singleton I can not ensure that it will even be part of my deck.  This is the main reason I like to play at least 2 salvages.  Its a card that always makes me feel safe when I have it in my yard since it guarantees that I'll have a landfall trigger available to me.

Unmask
This is more of a follow-up item. I have the question of whether it is really worthy of a playset in the main. It seems to be pretty bad against shops unless I go first, but maybe I am undervaluing the card and I'd like to have the opinion of others as well on this one. If anyone could follow up on how they feel about Unmask, I would highly appreciate it.

Shops on the draw is pretty much the only time its not good game 1.  Unmask is capable of grabbing your opponents first turn play, or turn 2 play on the draw, typically slowing your opponent down at least 1 turn, giving you time to get your second bazaar activation in.   After the second activation, the information gathered by unmask allows you to hit on your first cabal therapy, something that's usually blind.  For this reason its one of the best disruption cards available to a dredge player game 1.  What makes it even better is that it doubles to answer hate games 2/3.  Basically if you are already sold on misstep being a great card in dredge you should also consider unmask since they are on same power level in the deck.  Multiples are not an issue since it can be pitched to itself.

Darkblast
I do not know if I agree about the amount of Darkblast you are suggesting. I understand how it could be a player in some creature matchups post board but it seems pretty dead against shops, merfolk, and oath off the top of my head. I am curious how much Jailer is really played, it seems like it is the minority when it comes to hate that is being played. If I am wrong in that regard, I can see needing a good amount of ways to deal with it mainboard and sideboard. I want to run something like 1-2 Darkblast max and I don't know if that is necessarily right or not. I am liking the usefulness of Firestorm, and I feel like it is my 3-4th Darkblast, along will dealing with magus of the moon and other creature based decks, seems a lot better against merfolk if uncountered.

Golgari Thug
If we cut him entirely, we are reducing the amount we can dredge into our graveyard consistently in game 1, along with less Ichorid fodder, but you upped the Ichorid count. I definitely want atleast 1-2 Thugs in my deck I feel like. I find him to be another silver bullet of corner cases where he excels, being able to put a creature on top of your deck can be very useful and in a match where maybe I couldn't kill them on a turn where I got a Sun Titan and my library is very low on cards, I can bring him back with the Titan and cabal him to put a card on top of my library to keep me from losing to recall or just milling myself out of the game.

These two are competing for the same slots of the deck.  Darkblast is actually still decent against both merfolk, and oath.  Against oath you can prevent them from using orchard to activate their oath.  Against merfolk it kills cursecatchers, silvergills, as well as lords if you want to use the darkblast dredge it back darkblast it again trick.  I'd say its one of the best cards in the deck for games 2/3 and since I went up to 3, I almost never lose to creature decks, even after dropping game 1.  Most creature decks just simply can't deal with darkblast killing all their 1 toughness creatures and stinkweed blocking all their larger creatures.  I don't think I've ever used golgari thug's ability to prevent milling myself since I usually only mill to less than 10 cards if I know I'm going to win or I need to try to win that turn.  His ability is good for getting back ingot chewers, and narcomoebas games 2/3, but it can also be a drawback at times since its not optional.  

The updated list looks good.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 10:21:37 am by vaughnbros » Logged
JPettie
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« Reply #438 on: March 25, 2014, 09:14:54 am »

I took the list to a top 8 finish at Mythic on the weekend, but I have some interesting ideas that I don't know if they have been discussed yet. For one, has anyone considered Treacherous Pit-Dweller in the side, and going for more of a beat-down creature deck side with null rod and slight disruption, ignoring hate? It seems like everyone will bring in hate no matter what and cancel out the bad side of Pit-Dweller, making it a 2 cost 4/3, with a quick clock. I am considering Porcelain Legionnaire as well, something that can block very well and gets around the tax of Shops. Null Rod would of course come in against specific decks and stay in the side against creature decks depending on what was seen game 1. I am really loving the deck as a whole and I'm looking at spicing up Game 2-3 by ignoring the hate completely, and if they don't have it, still being able to make use of the graveyard. IE: (Ichorid, Bloodghast, Darkblast) Maybe Pit-Dweller and Legionnaire are too cute and maybe Null Rod is a bad idea to have in the side of Dredge, but I wanted opinions on it for the time being. A rough list would be something like so:

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Bloodghast
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
3 City of Brass
2 Dakmor Salvage
3 Darkblast
3 Dread Return
1 Fatestitcher
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Ingot Chewer
4 Mental Misstep
4 Narcomoeba
4 Serum Powder
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Sun Titan
3 Undiscovered Paradise

Sideboard:
1 City of Brass
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Ichorid
3 Nature's Claim
3 Null Rod
2 Porcelain Legionnaire
2 Treacherous Pit-Dweller
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

To be clear, this is not the list I top 8'd with, this is just something I'm interested in looking at going forward.
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #439 on: March 26, 2014, 05:42:47 pm »

For one, has anyone considered Treacherous Pit-Dweller in the side, and going for more of a beat-down creature deck side with null rod and slight disruption, ignoring hate?

Interesting I haven't tried treacherous pit-dweller since I wasn't aware it existed, but yes I have been playing a beat down board for a while.  The main deck for it is pretty drastically different from normal dredge, which makes it significantly more difficult to pilot, but the deck has pretty absurd win percentages against everything except oath control.  Here is my latest version:

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Serum Powder

Bodies:
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba
2 Bridge from Below

Dredgers:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Darkblast
2 Dakmor Salvage

Return Package:
3 Dread Return
2 Laboratory Maniac
1 Griselbrand

Disruption:
4 Mental Misstep
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Chalice of the Void

Mana:
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 City of Brass
1 Riftstone Portal
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

SB:
Humans:
4 Mayor of Avabruck
1 Divining Witch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

Mana:
4 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Brass

And for older versions, tournament reports and explanations for some card choices: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=45541.0
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JPettie
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« Reply #440 on: April 03, 2014, 09:16:57 am »

For one, has anyone considered Treacherous Pit-Dweller in the side, and going for more of a beat-down creature deck side with null rod and slight disruption, ignoring hate?

Interesting I haven't tried treacherous pit-dweller since I wasn't aware it existed, but yes I have been playing a beat down board for a while.  The main deck for it is pretty drastically different from normal dredge, which makes it significantly more difficult to pilot, but the deck has pretty absurd win percentages against everything except oath control.  Here is my latest version:

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Serum Powder

Bodies:
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba
2 Bridge from Below

Dredgers:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Darkblast
2 Dakmor Salvage

Return Package:
3 Dread Return
2 Laboratory Maniac
1 Griselbrand

Disruption:
4 Mental Misstep
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Chalice of the Void

Mana:
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 City of Brass
1 Riftstone Portal
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

SB:
Humans:
4 Mayor of Avabruck
1 Divining Witch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

Mana:
4 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Brass

And for older versions, tournament reports and explanations for some card choices: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=45541.0

Lance, your deck is sweet and I definitely understand how it can be very unexpected and win game 2,3 easily. I am new to the archetype in Vintage specifically and I just am wondering why you would take a fully new approach to the deck, do you feel like the deck right now that many play isn't good enough at winning game 2 and 3? In a whole, I'd just like to know everyone's perspective on what form of Dredge they feel is strong in a creature meta like today. I've been considering this list as of right now, and I'm definitely seeing the worth of Griselbrand, as you said, it took me a little bit to get used to it. I've been trying to toy with creature sideboards and I feel like the land just fails you sometimes, and Pit-Dweller is cute but its really actually pretty tough to cast, especially with Bloodghast also in the deck. I feel as though the only way to really change the deck in the side, is to either be more disruptive in the main and sideboard in even more disruption or to have a combo that works around their hate and catches them off guard. I feel like for example, if you did not incorporate Wasteland/Strip + Thalia + CotV in your list, you would have some serious problems not losing to your opponents going off before you can attack them down with grizzly bears. It seems like, you either morph the deck to be more disruptive and combo in a different way, or fight the hate with massive removal for it. I'm just not sure which path I want to take yet, both have their merits I believe. Below is the list I am working with right now, if anyone has any critiques, please let me know.

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Bloodghast
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 City of Brass
1 Dakmor Salvage
3 Darkblast
3 Dread Return
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
1 Golgari Thug
2 Griselbrand
3 Ichorid
4 Mental Misstep
4 Narcomoeba
1 Riftstone Portal
4 Serum Powder
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Unmask

Sideboard:
1 Chain of Vapor
2 City of Brass
1 Firestorm
2 Gemstone Mine
1 Ichorid
4 Ingot Chewer
3 Nature's Claim
1 Vampiric Tutor
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« Reply #441 on: April 03, 2014, 05:46:00 pm »

While my version certainly benefits from being unexpected its certainly not a requirement.  Since I've been playing with sideboard transformations in dredge for over a year now mostly everyone I play is aware that I am boarding into creatures.  The thing that makes it so great is that even after drawing my open 7 I don't even know if I'm going to be playing a graveyard based combo deck that game or a beat down creature deck.  This ability to transition mid game between the two drastically different strategies makes it excel against decks that lack broken cards since they are usually only capable of stopping me from executing one strategy successfully and not both.  As such the deck really becomes the ideal choice in a creature heavy meta.

The main reason I moved into this approach from a normal dredge board is that with a normal dredge deck you are completely at the mercy of how much dredge hate your opponent is playing and almost all skill is taken out of the match.  All it boils down to is do they have the hate? Do I have the answer?  Do they have something to stop the answer or another hate piece?  If they have less than 6 pieces you are highly favored.  If they have more than 6 you are the dog.

It seems like, you either morph the deck to be more disruptive or combo in a different way, or fight the hate with massive removal for it.

Correct.  These are your only three ways of winning post board with dredge.  As such, you really have to optimize your 75 as all of these cards will likely be used or at least seen in every match up.  

As for your lists, I'm not sure I see how Treacherous Pit-Dweller is more difficult to cast than narcomoeba or any other 2 drop for that matter as all of your lands produce black, except for the single riftstone portal.  A 4/3 vanilla for 2 is fairly efficient and may be strong enough to merit play, of course you'd likely want to be all in on the man plan.  For your new list I'd definitely max out on nature's claims, over the 4th ichorid thats in the board.  Good luck on your future builds and tournaments with it!
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 05:58:05 pm by vaughnbros » Logged
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