ritual based wgd

[shroomy2dope]

stax is a continuous problem. i've tested against twuan's build and the list fizix posted. the only times i won, were a good first turn or a second turn when they have a bad first.

needle sounds cool for wasteland but i'm looking for something more final. wasteland is a concern but it's the entire mana lock that screws me.i even tried basics

with sphere/thorn on the table and a chalice @0 basics don't do much good and wasteland/needle point is moot.

basics help, but you have to play at least three to be efficient, and they usually get sacked to smokestax or taped to tanglewire

i only play 2 moxen and 1 crypt, so in most games, my lands are my only permanents.

it doesn't take long for ritual to become useless. after so long i have to scoop because i could never cast a spell. i wish spirit guides came in blue and black.

tomorrow i'm going to test crucible of worlds and the gargadon swawagon suggested.

my other thought is this, a tutorable fastbond.  my stax match is prolonged without me taking any real damage so it shouldn't be too hard to amass an explosive hand.

the only issue would be casting fastbond after turn 1-2. maybe if i maindeck 2 necro over a 2dance and eliminate the third entirely, i could add two elvish spirit guide to the board.

i've also decide to eliminate pernicious deed from my stax plan and maybe from the deck all together.. i'ts too heavy casted, good against oath/fish but not neccessary. i's presence is probably causing me to overboard a lot of matches.

any thoughts or suggestions?

scenario:  if a stax player drops mana crypt, mox, chalice@0, crucible, wasteland,  and you play no basics, what's a possibility?

[zeus-online]

scenario:  if a stax player drops mana crypt, mox, chalice@0, crucible, wasteland,  and you play no basics, what's a possibility?

Creating an infinite loop and calling it a draw?
Playing a fetch land first, and then on your next turn going infinite (They waste the fetch, replay waste and waste your land, although they'd often not do that and simply wait for you to fetch and then nail the land, in which case you will have 2 lands in play)

[shroomy2dope]

i'm not sure i understand what you're suggesting. (sorry i'm tactically incompitent unless the cardboard is in front of me.)
I don't see how i could ever get two lands in play? if i wait for my next turn to go infinate wouldn't they waste my fetch at the EOT of my first turn? even if i fetch in response doesn't the fetch abbility resolve first with my new land in play as a target for wastelands ability that is about to resolve? why would they wait for me to fetch if they can replay the waste at their main phase.  i'm thouroughly confused by your statement. please elaborate

[Shean]

i'm not sure i understand what you're suggesting. (sorry i'm tactically incompitent unless the cardboard is in front of me.)
I don't see how i could ever get two lands in play? if i wait for my next turn to go infinate wouldn't they waste my fetch at the EOT of my first turn? even if i fetch in response doesn't the fetch abbility resolve first with my new land in play as a target for wastelands ability that is about to resolve? why would they wait for me to fetch if they can replay the waste at their main phase.  i'm thouroughly confused by your statement. please elaborate

This happens as follows:

They tap and sacrifice Wasteland to pay the cost to put the "Destroy target non-basic land" ability on the stack, targeting your fetchland.

With the ability on the stack, you respond by tapping and sacrificing your fetchland to search your library.

You find a land and put it into play.

The Wasteland "Destroy target non-basic land" ability tries to resolve from the stack, but the target is no longer in play and the ability fizzles.

In the previous poster's example, your opponent would then replay the Wasteland from the graveyard (given that they have Crucible in play) and use it to kill the land you fetched, unless you got a basic land.

For the reason that you can simply go fetch a basic land (provided that there is one in your deck) people usually only waste a fetchland for the following reasons:

1)  You just used a tutor to put a card on top of your deck.  If they waste your fetchland, you have to decide to lose the land or shuffle away the card you tutored.
2)  They know you have no basic lands in your deck and have the ability to replay another Wasteland to get the land you fetch.
3)  They have a Strip Mine to kill the basic land you fetch.

His point is that if you play "fetchland, go," you will almost never see someone Wasteland your T1 fetchland.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

The other transformational board you could consider is going straight beatdown.  This would work better if you have Confidants in the main, of course.  Then you side in something like 4x Goyf and 4x Negator.  This could be very effective against Stax, although it is obviously weak against Fish and Oath.  You would also have to cut the Forbidden Orchards, of course.

Even if you don't do the transformational board, maindeck Confidants could help against Stax by drawing you land and acting as additional permanents to tap or sac as needed.

The other thing with Stax is that Fow is your best friend against them.  I know you tried Fow and didn't like it, but if you want to improve the Stax matchup, it is the best possible disruption against them.  Running only Duress as disruption is part of what makes you weak against Stax.

[zeus-online]

i'm not sure i understand what you're suggesting. (sorry i'm tactically incompitent unless the cardboard is in front of me.)
I don't see how i could ever get two lands in play? if i wait for my next turn to go infinate wouldn't they waste my fetch at the EOT of my first turn? even if i fetch in response doesn't the fetch abbility resolve first with my new land in play as a target for wastelands ability that is about to resolve? why would they wait for me to fetch if they can replay the waste at their main phase.  i'm thouroughly confused by your statement. please elaborate

Fizix pretty much covered the wasteland vs. fetch situation...

So i'm going to the loop instead...

If you start the dragon loop...(Animate on dragon)
But there is no other creatures in any graveyards,
and you have no way to win,
and the opponent can't stop you,
the dragon will just keep bouncing back and forth forever,
thus the game cannot be continue and is a draw.

I wish i was good enough to make it a haiku though.

I'm assuming the situation is them going turn 1 wasteland, go.
And you then go Underground sea, ritual, entomb (For dragon), Animate on dragon....They then waste your land in response to animate, and the loop will continue to the end of mankind unless you call it a draw.

[shroomy2dope]

@ zues/fizix
thank you for clarifying. i get it. i understand how it works, but it doesn't seem very likely. if the stax player already had crucible in play with waste on the board, What would he benifit from not targeting the fetch before my second his second turn?.
waste's abillity goes on the stack, i fetch, fetch resolves, waste fizzles,  land comes into play. i do whatever then pass. stax player's turn 2 he replays waste and hits the dual i just fetch for and thereby starts the chain thats prohibits me from ever having more than one land in play. why wouldn't this happen?

i understand how this would work in the ritual scenario i could go infinate for the draw. however my confusion lies with the initial post of zues-online

scenario:  if a stax player drops mana crypt, mox, chalice@0, crucible, wasteland,  and you play no basics, what's a possibility?

Creating an infinite loop and calling it a draw?
Playing a fetch land first, and then on your next turn going infinite (They waste the fetch, replay waste and waste your land, although they'd often not do that and simply wait for you to fetch and then nail the land, in which case you will have 2 lands in play)

in which case you will have 2 lands in play

  i do not see why the stax player would allow this if he could keep me locked out by doing otherwise.

fizix.  i understand your statement [quoteHis point is that if you play "fetchland, go," you will almost never see someone Wasteland your T1 fetchland.][/quote]
but the scenario was crucible wasteland go. that's why i do not see what the stax player has to benefit. i could see the tutor disruption as a pro factor but why is that relevant when they could simply deny me the mana to play the tutor or the card i tutor for?



@gandalf. the aggro board is in my future test plans. crucible does not work well by the time i need it i'm allready in to deep for it to help.
fastbond and spiritguide was stupid at best
aggro seems the best course. i've actually started to win games with saprazzan legate.
welder and confidant can't block it and it's toughness is to high for 1 single barbarian ring.
it works really well with pithing needle for support.
i'm takind swawagon's advice there. needle on barbarian ring is good.
at first i was testing nether spirit until i remembered the legates. great sphere resiliancy.
my meta has become rather cluttered with strait g/w beats. any suggestions for converting to an aggro board while maintaining some tech there?



major revisions. -4 carefull study -1 polluted delta   +1 caller of the claw   + 4 bazaar   
sideboard  -1 bazaar   -1 caller  +2 leyline of the void    consult original list for complete scheme of changes.
i hope to inspire more posts. this deck is really great. i think it's actuall competitveness is being underestimated

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

my meta has become rather cluttered with strait g/w beats. any suggestions for converting to an aggro board while maintaining some tech there?

Nekrataal is a possibility.  Can take out Goyf and wins in combat with every other creature.  If the mana cost is too prohibitive you could instead use Shriekmaw, for the option to either evoke or hardcast.  You might also consider one of the Pro-green 2/2 dudes for UB.

Perish dodges Teeg and kills most of their dudes for 3 mana.  Infest kills white dudes too but doesn't touch Goyf.  

All of these are pretty useless against other archetypes, though.  The most versatile options would probably be Sower of Temptation or Old Man of the Sea, since they are good against other decks with Confidant or Welder.  Sower is also decent against Iona Oath, since they usually have to name black against you.

[shroomy2dope]

@gandalf

the aggro plan does not seem to work well. i'm weak in the fish match, my creatures ar.t enough of a threat against drain unless i draw multiple goyf/negator. i can't refill my hand and drop enough creatrures. dredge is surprisingly not a bad match, and combo rocks my dome. 15 cards is just not enough space with the combo bones in place. maybe if contract from below was legal....
anyways look at my original post and tell me if you think that my revised side board list has merits it has been recently edited. what do you think of my stax tek?  

sideboard(may drop the transformational plan)
3 sapprazaan legate
1 echoing truth
2 chain of vapor
1 stroke of genius
1 darkblast
1 pact of negation
4 leyline of the void
2 diabolic intent

thanks, shroomy

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Can you explain what the Saprazzan Legates and Diabolic Intent are for?  They don't seem very good to me.

You are correct that the aggro plan is pretty much only effective against Stax.  It has been effective against 5c Stax iin my testing, but as you said, the problem is that it takes away slots from your other matchups.  As other options against Stax, you could try Hurkyl's Recall and/or Energy Flux (somewhat expensive but can wreck their board).

I would also suggest running some number of basic lands, either in the maindeck or out of the board (Obviously you would want a full set of Deltas to go with them).  Just having 1-2 of Swamp/Island in the deck makes it harder for Stax to lock you down because they need Stack or Cow+Strip to kill all your land instead of just Cow+Waste.

[swawagon]

I ported my previous Dragon list:

4 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae
1 Mulldrifter

3 Necromancy
3 Animate Dead
1 Dance of the Dead
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duresss
1 Vampiric Tutor

4 Deep Analysis
3 Read the Runes
4 Intuition
4 Force of Will
1 Repeal
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Bazaar of Baghdad

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mana Crypt


---
and tested this:

4 worldgorger dragon
1 Oona

4 animate dead
4 dance of the dead
3 dark ritual
4 entomb
1 demonic consultation
4 duress
1 vampiric tutor
1 demonic tutor

3 read the runes
3 whispers of the muse
2 cunning wish
1 ancestral recall
1 Repeal
1 Deep Analysis

1 black lotus
1 mox ruby
1 mox saphire
1 mox jet
1 mana crypt

4 bazaar of baghdad
4 forbidden orchard
3 polluted delta
2 misty rainforest
4 underground sea

The (second) Ritual list certainly has a better goldfish, but if an opponent has any counters the second deck has a much harder time getting back in the game. As I thought, I missed Force of Will both to back up my spells and to counter opposing cards such as Sphere of Resistance or Ancestral Recall. And without 4 Deep Analysis and cards like Dark Ritual that sacrifice speed for a card, the second deck doesn't keep up with other draw engines in the meta. I was topdecking before I knew it and opponents had full grips. This does make a case for Windfall and with 4 Orchards, Mox Ruby and Lotus to perhaps also play Wheel of Fortune, but they aren't much good if they don't resolve. The second list could potentially also benefit from a few Thoughtseize as well as Duress, for more protection.

The second list is fun to play and faster, but has a much harder time fighting back if the first quick attempt at the Dragon combo it thwarted. The first list plays a lot more controlling, while the second is for speed.

Deck 2: What I didn't expect was how often I still won with the Bazaar route. Bazaar lets you see a lot of cards, and with Bazaar down and little threat of it being Wastelanded or Stripmined, I simply filter out the Read the Runes, Whispers of the Muse, and Cunning Wishes - and keep Animate Spells or Duresses. If you don't have a Dragon yarded yet, the 3 Whisper's of the Muse would most often are just be cycled to find more useful cards.

[shroomy2dope]

@swawagon
your results mirror my own. the deck runs swiftly but is extremely light on control and disruption. my question os in response to this

but if an opponent has any counters the second deck has a much harder time getting back in the game.

what spells did you notice getting countered? if it was your animate then you only need to find two copies. bazaar is uncounterable, and if they counter wish you wish again for pact. (if you runes or whispers to find the wishes initially). did your runes/whisper get countered? i find players usually counter my animate, or my last card, to get more tokens from orchard.

i've also considered wheel in adittion to windfall. and i've  played around with bargain, necro and jar.
imperial seal is a great addition.
@gangalf.
diabolic intent is for the oath match i sack orchard tokens of theirs to search for the card i need to win or the bouce for there oath.

the legate is for the stax match around here. they play mono red with mountains. i play islands. that means i don't have to pay his mana cost, which is good against stax. he flys over welder, and he has 3 tougness which is larger than the two damage a single barbarian ring can do. he is great against stax when backed up by leyline and pithing needle. the only way he leaves play is to smokestax or REB, and REB really isn't to prevailent around here. he could also die to multiple rings or a combination of ring and blast, but thats why leline and needle back him up good.
he's not a great card but in this case he's a good card.

the problem with hurkylls recall is that it costs 2 to play. if i could cast a 2 mana spell i would play my animate and win/draw.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

the legate is for the stax match around here. they play mono red with mountains. i play islands. that means i don't have to pay his mana cost, which is good against stax. he flys over welder, and he has 3 tougness which is larger than the two damage a single barbarian ring can do. he is great against stax when backed up by leyline and pithing needle. the only way he leaves play is to smokestax or REB, and REB really isn't to prevailent around here. he could also die to multiple rings or a combination of ring and blast, but thats why leline and needle back him up good.
he's not a great card but in this case he's a good card.

But how does having a 1/3 flyer on the board against stax actually help you?  It doesn't disrupt them and does nothing to advance your main game plan.  Are you supposed to to win by beating for 1/turn?

[dicemanx]

The second list is fun to play and faster, but has a much harder time fighting back if the first quick attempt at the Dragon combo it thwarted. The first list plays a lot more controlling, while the second is for speed.

In your second list, perhaps you could consider replacing Whispers of the Muse with Intuition? Whispers is one of your weakest cards, and while it does cycle, quite often cycling in WGD = passing the entire turn for the sole benefit of cycling (so replacing Whispers with Intuition rarely "slows" the deck down, and isn't thus contrary to the deck's intent - run as a speed WGD deck). Intuition gets some additional mileage from Rituals, and can address the problem of an initial thwarting of the combo by adding additional tutors into the mix. You can even consider adding a second Deep Analysis (probably at the expense of Demonic Consultation) if you go the Intuition route - you don't sacrifice much speed but you do improve slightly the tutoring and draw power.

For speed WGD builds, another option is really going whole hog and ramping up the number of Oonas and Spoils of the Vault. A final option is to ramp down the number of WGDs and go the Buried Alive route (with Ancient Tombs making more sense). I was never a big fan of Buried Alive, but maybe there's some sort of combination that will fit nicely and make for a strong deck - no possibility should be discounted when exploring your options.
  

[swawagon]

Thanks for the suggestions Dice!

A few other things:

You don't really need Cunning Wish at all if you play Oona. In a Dragon loop, with Bazaar in play or Read the Runes (or Whisper) in hand, you can draw/discard your library, and just switch the Animate to Oona with the infi mana.

The only rare time Oona is worse than Cunning Wish is if you don't have a Bazaar in play or Read the Runes or Whisper in hand — when you are ready to Animate a Dragon — and Oona is in your hand. But 2-3 Street Wraiths in the deck will often solve that, if you had cycled one earlier in the game. If so, after generating tons of mana, you break the loop by switching the Animate to the Street Wraith and then hardcast the Oona.

I was thinking playing a few Street Wraith offers a few things to this deck.
1) The example above of offering another creature to break a Dragon loop with if needed.
2) It cycles for free, obviously making the deck 1/60 smaller.
3) Something else to animate (or hardcast?) when you need a blocker to buy time, or in the terribly rare case of actually attack.

But in the case where you could draw a game, but cannot because you have a Street Wraith to Animate, playing Street Wraith is the rare disadvantage case.

[zeus-online]

I honestly would never go below 4 DA in bazaar dragon....They just allow you to outdraw pretty much any deck. It also helps digging for force of will/duress to further disrupt the opponent and build up to the eventual kill. That is, DA's work very well in those games where you just can't combo out quickly.

Has spell pierce been looked into instead of duress effects? Could be nice - And it pitches which is actually quite a boon.

[shroomy2dope]

the list has changed some what. here is my current revision. dicemanx is correct in saying that whispers is the weakest card in the build it's original purpose was to be a win spell that doubled as a means to draw a top deck tutor target.
i dropped the two whispers for a wheel of fortune and one thought seize. on the basis that, the deck contains 10 outlets to win without them.

i'm trying to stray away from intuition/deep analysis. that's an incredible draw engine, but it's too slow. that would make F.O.W. an auto include and probably several other counters. there's so many bombs in the format right now, tezz, tendrills, tinker, vault, random cards that win, plus anything that preys on grave yard manipulation is a must answer. this is the reason i was trying to create a faster version of an already swift deck.
i also plan on dropping a mana source for a red mox. i'm just trying to determine whether it will be a land or a ritual. 

List:

Creatures(5)
4 worldgorger dragon
1 caller of the claw
artifacts(5)
1 black lotus
1 lotus petal
1 mox saphire
1 mox jet
1 mana crypt
enchantments(7)
4 animate dead
2 dance of the dead
1 necromancy
instants(19)
4 dark ritual
4 entomb
3 read the runes
2 cunning wish
1 demonic consultation
1 vampiric tutor
1 ancestral recall
1 brainstorm
sorcery(7)
4 duress
1 demonic tutor
1 imperial seal
1 windfall
1 wheel of fortune
1 thoughtsieze
land(17)
4 bazaar of baghdad
4 forbidden orchard
1 polluted delta
4 underground sea
4 misty rainforest
 

sideboard(may drop the transformational plan)
3 sapprazaan legate
1 echoing truth
2 chain of vapor
1 stroke of genius
1 darkblast
1 pact of negation
4 leyline of the void
2 diabolic intent

some notes
i chose to include caller over Oona for several reasons.
caller can be hardcast if i win through the entomb route over the bazaar route. this helps to justify cutting whispers.
Oona may be hardcastable but not during mid combo. it does not have flash.
caller can navigate true beleiver maindeck.


@gandalf.
yes.  the point is to beat for 1 or 2 or 3.  if i mull to leyline then cast needle on barbarian ring against mono red stax, how do they win? they beat for 1 with welder. this is not a good plan but it is A plan. post board i can win against B/R stax because they don't amass enough sphere effects quickly.  but the 9 sphere red build is a hazzard. my better option would probably be to remove the 3 legates for 2 more needles and a lake of the dead, to regain acceleration late game. but legates are effective. not only in theory, but in testing

@swawagon.
i would love some street wraith addition in my build, however, i am not sure how to proportion the cutting. i would be interested to see how you fit it into your list. i assume to add 4 cut 1 card from each major catagory the deck presents. mana sources, win conditions, entomb effects, and reanimation spells. but that's just theory.
 
wish is better than Oona in the drain match because you have a PON in the side. if i was playing drain and i saw you bazaar out a dragon, i would procede to counter your animate spells.  if i was playing drain and i saw you play orchard for entomb, i would allow you to play your animate with no obvious target to break your loop. i would wait to counter your large spell then decide next turn whether i wanted to win wiyh drain mana or orchard tokens.
each game i make a plan to victory. this deck has an amazing number of possible routes to the win. i'ts simply a matter of using your tutor/draw in away that lets you build the proper set of peices

thanks for posting everyone

[dicemanx]

i'm trying to stray away from intuition/deep analysis. that's an incredible draw engine, but it's too slow.

Keep in mind that Intuition actually adds to the speed by inflating the number of instant speed kill cards to support Entomb and Read the Runes; the fact that it can be used outside of the combo is merely a bonus (and a big bonus at that). Intuition is thus as good as Whispers with respect to the speed of the kill, unless you feel that being able to cycle Whispers contributes to the speed (which it doesn't actually, since you don't want to be cycling an actual combo card for the most part). In fact, Intuition should actually increase the speed in Ritual builds because you can tutor up a WGD into the graveyard and still have mana to Animate on turn 2 if another non-land accelerant is used in addition to the ritual.

[shroomy2dope]

@dicemanx....Thanks for picking up on the thread. posting from an experienced user is appreciated.


intuition is more versatile than whispers. but i have already made the decision to remove whispers. so i suppose the next logical question i must pose is this. is intuition better than the cards i was going to replace whispers with? the comparison should be made to windfall and wheel of fortune. they all pitch the dragon but the draw spells are only sorcery speed. thus cannot be used mid combo to effect the win. however they both pose greater card advantage on a more frequent basis(considering deep analysis is not present). also consider the fact of mana cost. while all 3 cost only 3 mana, intuition does nothing guaranteed  but pitch WGD. the sorcery draw spells do this and refill your hand,and possibly supply mana to continue your play.

 in a deck with an underpowered draw engine, yet many search/pitch effects, this seems to be favorable to the draw spells. however this is all considering the lack of D.A. which is really what i was referring to when i was talking about the speed of the build. i would not like to draw D.A. when i could be drawing an entomb/bazaar or an animate spell. not when i'm trying to drop an all out combo in 1-2 turns with multiple pieces available for counter proof efficiency.

thoughts? suggestions?  

i saw you mentioned spoils of the vault in your previous post. i also found this old post of yours. what are your current thoughts on the card in a build such as this? 

As a general comment for those reading this thread: Just out of curiosity, the fastest possible Dragon deck must run 4 Spoils, 4 Rituals, and 4 Bazaars and be at least semi-powered. However, speed isn't everything, because unfortunately every potent Dragon hoser in the environment is either 0 or 1 cc, with a few costing 2

[dicemanx]

is intuition better than the cards i was going to replace whispers with? the comparison should be made to windfall and wheel of fortune.

I think you need to ask a different question: what is the minimum number of instant speed spells that I need to run to support the Entomb/RtR alternate win plan? Dropping Whispers entirely leaves you with:

4 Entomb
3 Read the Runes
2 Cunning Wish

You'll use the first Entomb/RtR to deposit a WGD in the yard, and then have 8 instant speed cards as back-up if you plan to win instead of drawing the game. You'll have to decide whether that is sufficient or whether more is necessary. Keep also in mind that even if you deem 8 sufficient, there is always the question of whether Cunning Wish should be played over Intuition. Wish isn't really that amazing in WGD at fetching answers to problem cards, and it isn't necessary as a win condition if you run Oona.

In any event I'll be watching to see how things develop - I'm curious to see if Entomb builds can generate some success in the current field.

[shroomy2dope]

actually i run

4 entomb
3 RtR
2 wish
1caller of the claw
and 4 bazaar.

not to mention corner cases consultation or vamp plus recall/brainstorm or whatever.

caller has flash and bazaar can find him at instant speed. however that is considering i didn't activate bazaar to pitch wgd the same turn i combo, which usually isn't the case. thats 14 instant speed sources. only one of wich is required to pitch the gorger.

wish vs. intuition is interesting but i put faith in the double wish/PoN plan. it's won me games thus far.
a note to consider. wish has fetched me c.o.v. to bounce leyline against dredge game 1 and echoing truth to bounce a double leyline in the same situation.
intuition just strikes me as a card that needs a tool box of one ofs to be the card i want and i don't have the deck space to devote to that.  however it seems to be the card of choice, so i will test diligently before i formulate an opinion.

[zeus-online]

Why Caller over oona? are you often comboing out without access to blue or black mana? Except for rare scenarios i see no reason to run caller over oona.

[dicemanx]

1caller of the claw
and 4 bazaar.

Caller in hand doesn't combo with Entomb and I was referring alternate comboing outside of Bazaar. Entomb versions should maximize their turn 1 and turn 2 kills - ideally you want to be able to play Underground Sea, Ritual, Entomb, Animate on turn 1, but to maximize this play you need a boatload of instants to allow this combo to actually kill. Bazaar doesn't help here.

[shroomy2dope]

@dicemanx
thaks
i get the picture. i was not trying to be redundantly debative. i was merely trying to elaborate upon the possible win outlets, to the readers.
in my original list i ran i  
2wish
2whispers
4runes
1consultation
i would usually fish a turn one win 1/7 tries.
since then i have eliminated 3 of the outlets and added 4 bazaars plus 1 creature which allows the 3 auxillary entombs to replace the 3 win outlets i removed.
the caller works oddly with the entomb win. when you cast the ritual off orchard/mine rather than sea, you can flash caller mid-combo. however to break the loop there must be a reanimatable creature in some ones graveyard. not great, but it does happen, especially game 1 against dredge, and it is a service Oona does not provide.

my actual target turn is 2. that happens through goldfish roghly 80% of the time. in an actual G1 match against disruption/counter i aim for turn 3 with a duress and double 2cc animate spell.
a turn 2 win actually supports bazaar quite well, wich was, what i was reffering to in my initial list of win outlets.
of late i have frequently went:
turn 1. land. entomb/recall
turn2. bazaar. tap land play accelerant. play animate. win via baaar for caller. this happens frequently off the entomb on turn 1. this plan also can accomadate casting duress fairly easy.

more often i see the classic, turn one entomb, turn 2 animate, win via instant spell.



                 just a note
this is slightly peculiar....I beleive the line between bazaar/entomb builds is wrather blurred if even existant. the two cards support eachother quite well. if not for running the bazaar plan entomb would not be a win condition. i beleive the line between build exists between ritual/bazaar. if one was to eliminate the logical factor of the turn1 win by removing the rituals, the 4 slots should be filled with the 4 carefull studys. as supported by the evidence above, thisrswitch would bolster the turn 2 average win by allowing you to substitute the turn 1 entomb for a turn1 study+WGD.
this helps support the "winning through counters by redundancy", plan that the build seems to adopt. also ritual proves a dead draw late game where as study does not.
i'm not suggesting thischange, nor would i ever consider making it. i like winning on turn1. i'm simply voicing my conjecture on the classification of WGD builds, and subsequently, advocating the inclusion of entomb into bazaar based WGD.

a note on turn 1 wins.
it should be noted that turn 1 wins are possible through bazaar. it comes sometimes that you may drop a lotus or b. mox/lotus petal to fuel a ritual for an entomb/animate, then drop bazaar and win via creature.
i know this is what is termed a corner case, however this deck seems to present a lot of those. that makes them a probible factor.

now, to resume the discussion of intuition.

the number of win outlets for turn 1 is currently 9
3RtR
3entomb
2cunning wish
1consultation
all others are completely random.

so the relevance of intuition lies here:
it is not faster than whispers because they both give an outlet for the turn 1 win. however intuition is swifter than the two sorcery spells i filled the slots with.
so...the weighing of intuition should be against all possible alternatives to whispers that meet the turn 1 win criteria. i suppose thos would be thus;
whispers
read the runes
spoils of the vault
cunning wish
intuition
various x spells
so, given this statement, the question of the proper spellwould be based upon the value of the spell outside of it's usein the win, which would largley fall between RtR, intuition, and spoils.

they all win at instant speed, they all provide an outlet for the comb. so lets discuss their secondary merits.

runes
runes at 1u can pich a gorger in your hand and draw a card. it can be used to dig, usualyy, 3-5 cards deep on turn 1-2. the number of cards keepable is relevant to the number of mana sources you can sacrifice, which of course, is relevant to the runes pile. also i suppose runes could be used to break the loop if that was ever a concern.

intuition.
intuition is a super tutor for 3. it can yard WGd for 3(a vulnerable gambit in the face of yard removal), or grab an animate spell for 3(the equivlant of grim tutor) both of these routes are over costed at 3, however, the fact that the card may preform any single action the deck needs to preform to win, is an amazing plus.

spoils of the vault.
an all out tutor for 1. this is tempting. it is castable off a ritual, it pitches WGD for BB via entomb, and it fetches animate for B. however, the loss of life is staggering when you cast this spell turn 1 or 2, which to be efficient, you will. also the actual win here is cunning wis, which is a 2 of. that makes the cons out weigh the pros for spoils.

so the choice seems to lie between 1 intuition/1RtR(already list 3)
or 2 intuition.

amd of course this is all relative to whether or notthe excess 2 winnable(swift) spells are neccesary over the 2 resilliant(slow) draw/pitch spells
this will be the first issue addressed in testing. then, once the correct number of win-con slots is etermined i will turn my attention to the allocation of the various spells to their respective slots.


general note.
 i would be highly interested in an in-depth discussion on the inclusion of street wraith. swawagon mentioned it and it's been on my mind ever since,



thanks for  your continued posting eveyone

[swawagon]

Just to clarify card roles

Get Dragon in the Yard:

Entomb
Bazaar
Read the Runes
Intuition
Thoughtsieze yourself with Dragon in hand
Wheel of Fortune with Dragon in hand
get 8 cards in hand and discard it


Win, with Animate spell (get infi mana and...):

Bazaar away library, animate Oona, remove opponents grave instantly
Cunning Wish in hand, get Stroke of Genius and make opponent draw their library
Read the Runes in hand, draw library and discard Oona or keep Cunning Wish in hand
Intuition for Oona and 2 Cunning Wish
Intuition for Oona and any other creature (Street Wraith, Mulldrifter - to break the loop and hardcast Oona)

Bazaar, Read the Runes, and Intuition can play both roles and agreed, we should probably play a lot of each.


Presumed List:
1 Oona
4 Worldgorger Dragon

4 Bazaar
4 Read the Runes
3 Intuition
4 Animate Dead
4 Dance of the Dead

4 Entomb
3 Dark Ritual

4 Duress

2 Street Wraith
2 Deep Analysis
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
4 Orchard

1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
3 Moxen

This removes Cunning Wish which isn't really necessary, and Demonic Consultation which with only Oona is much more a liability now. And adds 3 Intuition and 2 Street Wraith.

[dicemanx]

Your idea of Street Wraith is certainly thought provoking. My first instinct is to avoid using the card in WGD, but perhaps testing would prove me wrong. The reason I haven't seriously considered the card in the past is because of the same reason I've avoided using Time Walk - a Walk or Wraith in your opening grip can cause a misevaluation of your starting hand, and you might end up mulliganing more often than you should. I would at least consider adding Time Walk ahead of the first Street Wraith. Time Walk incidentally has some synergy with Entomb, as it enables some turn 1 kills (WGD typically needs two lands outside of Ritual-fueled kills).

I have another suggestion: while Rituals are synergistic with Entomb, it might ultimately be better to ditch the Rituals and return to a full complement of Moxes/Lotus/Sol Ring/Crypt/Vault. Without those extra artifact mana sources Read the Runes loses a LOT of its power, as does Intuition.

[shroomy2dope]

@zuess
 i recommend that you read back several posts, if not the whole second page. i have discussed my reasoning on caller of the claw several times.   i suppose the bulk of my reasoning is that caller has never lost me a game because it was not Oona, and it has won me games because it was not Oona. Oona is the better card. Oona is the better choice in theory. however, my results beg to differ. i suppose if people start boarding in pyroclasym against WGD, then i should revert.

i nearly always have blue and black access when i combo. a lot of times i have 5-color access when i combo,
but since you open the door for the topic.......turn 1 black lotus, or lotus petal with a dark ritual could fuel a entomb/animate combo where i would not have access to such mana. not saying that has happened to me. i'm not really sure, but in the eventuallity, caller would be dominate.


@swawagon.
interesting post. it makes the wheels start to turn.
i do have questions if you would answer them, and after words i think i'll fish your list a couple of times and see what it draws like.

1.how did you come about 2 as the correct number of street wraiths?

2. if you drew 7 at D.A., fetch, U.sea, entomb, streetwraith, ritual, intuition, would you keep it on the play?

3. if so and the next 2 cards you saw were thoughtsieze then U.mox, what you procede to do?

4. you included 4 duress in this list.  what are your thoughts on duress vs. thoughtseize?

5. you were once a pronounced advocate of necromancy, but you listed only 2cc animate spells here. what is the reasoning for this? would you opt for any in the side?

6. final question. with the loss of necromancy and the wish/P.O.N. plan, you lose much of your strength against 8+ counter builds. you also did not propose to raise the disruption count proportionally. what is your plan of action in the drain match? (i did notice you raised the animate count to 8...)

notes:
i noticed you run no imperial seal or brainstorm. with the loss of demo C. do you not think these would help the turn 1-2 search capabilities?
i've never had success with walk in dragon. it costs 2, so does an animate dead. i shed a small tear everytime i cast it.



if i was to adopt a no wish plan i think i would do this:
-1 wheel    +1 runes
-1 windfall    +1intuition
-1 necro      +1 dance
-2 wish        +2 thoughtseize
-1 demonic consultation    +1 mana source

sideboard
-1stroke +1 necro
-1P.O.N. +1dance

[swawagon]

1.how did you come about 2 as the correct number of street wraiths?

>I'd probably just have one Street Wraith and a 4 Mox or a Thoughtseize if I were to test today.

2. if you drew 7 at D.A., fetch, U.sea, entomb, streetwraith, ritual, intuition, would you keep it on the play?

> Probably a keep. Cycle Street Wraith. Fetch for Sea and Entomb a Worldgorger Dragon on opponents EOT. Turn 2 play a land. If you didn't draw an animate spell from the 2 draws (Wraith, turn two draw) probably Dark Ritual cast Intuition for 3 Animate spells EOT (a case for full Moxen over Dark Rituals) and go for the win next turn, provided one of those 2 draws and the 3rd turn draw is a (Bazaar, Read the Runes, or another Intuition). Or Dark Ritual hardcast Deep Analysis and draw 2 cards, if you were pretty sure whatever will be countered, to get DA in the grave to use next turn, and to not bury 2 Animate Spells.

3. if so and the next 2 cards you saw were thoughtsieze then U.mox, what you procede to do?

> Play land. Dark Ritual, Thoughtseize, and Intuition for 3 Animate Spells.

4. you included 4 duress in this list.  what are your thoughts on duress vs. thoughtseize?

> I like Thoughtseize fine, heck I'd like to play more of each, but have not found room. It just finding right mix of speed and disruption. If you fear Quasali Pridemage or True Believer a great deal Thoughtseize is fine, otherwise Duress usually does the job for no life loss. Also it's useful, but very rare that you actually would need to Thoughtseize yourself to yard a Dragon.

5. you were once a pronounced advocate of necromancy, but you listed only 2cc animate spells here. what is the reasoning for this? would you opt for any in the side?

> Necromancy is great in a much slower, controlling version of Dragon with a more robust draw engine and with 4 Force of Will. In a deck that has time to set up and mana to cast 2 Animate spells a turn to fight hate. I don't think it fits in this faster version, largely because when trying to win in the first 3 turns, 2 mana is a lot different than 3. Perhaps I'm wrong here, but in testing mana was tight early and I never wanted to see Necromancy in this build.

6. final question. with the loss of necromancy and the wish/P.O.N. plan, you lose much of your strength against 8+ counter builds. you also did not propose to raise the disruption count proportionally. what is your plan of action in the drain match? (i did notice you raised the animate count to 8...)

> I don't think Cunning Wish for Pact of Negation is really a valid way to beat Mana Drain in the first place. You have to get to 3 mana first, then resolve Wish, then try to go off... I think adding a mix of Thoughtseize, or Pact of Negation to the main, or even Spell Pierce may provide enough oomph to get there. Also simply running 8 "must counter" Animate Spells and overloading their counters is not a terrible approach, provided they aren't running Bounce or Stifle.

notes:
i noticed you run no imperial seal or brainstorm. with the loss of demo C. do you not think these would help the turn 1-2 search capabilities?
i've never had success with walk in dragon. it costs 2, so does an animate dead. i shed a small tear everytime i cast it.

> I don't think with all the redundancy we run that Imperial Seal is good enough. I love DC, but too risky here. Brainstorm is OK, I compare it to the Street Wraith slot and Street Wraith has a few other benefits, while Brainstorm uses valuable mana. I know it digs deeper, I play Brainstorm in my other Dragon version, but redundancy I think is how we win with this deck.

[shroomy2dope]

the windfall and wheel in my build have become a 4th read the runes, and a dance of the dead.

i'm not sure if i could bring myself to play street wraith. the more i think about it the less beneficial it seems. i would hate to pay two life and cycle with great expectations, then hit a land. i know the whole deck thinning concept is great, l really like land grant in any build that can support it, but streetwraith just seems too out of place here.

my next objective would be to include more thoughtsieze and moxen, without lowering my ritual count.

 

List:

Creatures(5)
4 worldgorger dragon
1 caller of the claw
artifacts(5)
1 black lotus
1 lotus petal
1 mox saphire
1 mox jet
1 mana crypt
enchantments(7)
4 animate dead
3 dance of the dead
1 necromancy
instants(19)
4 dark ritual
4 entomb
4 read the runes
2 cunning wish
1 demonic consultation
1 vampiric tutor
1 ancestral recall
1 brainstorm
sorcery(7)
4 duress
1 demonic tutor
1 imperial seal


land(17)
4 bazaar of baghdad
4 forbidden orchard
1 polluted delta
4 underground sea
4 misty rainforest
1 gemstone mine

sideboard
1 swamp
1 lake of the dead
1 echoing truth
2 chain of vapor
1 stroke of genius
2 pithing needle
1 pact of negation
4 leyline of the void
2 diabolic intent

@swawagon. i really like your list, but i think you are too quick to write off your tutors. even though i run many multiples, sometimes all the pieces just arn't there and the rest of the hand is too good to throw back.
most of the time i tutor for a lotus anyways, or a duress to push through a counter.
i think it would serve you greatly to work in a second Oona an bring back demonic consultation.
any card to your hand for B is good enough to merit 2 spots in the list.
have you ever opened with ritual demonic consultation, and demonic tutor all in your first hand? i have several times. it's God-Awsome.

as far as brainstorm goes, well thats a judgement call. it helps me pile the excess multiples on top, potentially draw my missing piece or the mana i need, then i just fetch away the chaff.

what would the board look like in your proposed list?

[swawagon]

I'd consider 3 Intuition as tutors. They are also win conditions. Intuition also works great with 2 Deep Analysis.

You can cut Cunning Wish altogether by running one Street Wraith. Intuition does much more than Cunning Wish.

I love Demonic Consultation, just not here.

Also Lotus Petal seems weak, an off color Mox seems much more useful over the course of a game.

And considering Dark Ritual is not very good in multiples and loses a lot of power after the first turn, to go full Moxen and play just one Dark Ritual at the moment.

Main
5moxes

My SB might be:
3 Hellkite Overlord
4 Oath
4 Extirpate / 4 Leyline of the Void
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Ancient Grudge / 1 Hurkyl's Recall / (if using Leyline) 1 Helm of Obedience